The Shadow Complex Controversy

  • 162 results
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
Posted by Sweep (8816 posts) -

 Orson Scott Card, designer of the world in which Shadow Complex is set, is a chronic homophobe. Some people seem to believe the indirect profits Card receives from this game justify a complete Boycott. I appreciate there are probably people here who both agree and disagree with this sentiment; despite a complete absence of any anti-gay themes featuring in the game. (Thanks to Coins from Neogaf for the links)
 
Heres some ramblings from Card:

Homophobe. lol.

 The first and greatest threat from court decisions in California and Massachusetts, giving legal recognition to "gay marriage," is that it marks the end of democracy in America.

 Already in several states, there are textbooks for children in the earliest grades that show "gay marriages" as normal. How long do you think it will be before such textbooks become mandatory -- and parents have no way to opt out of having their children taught from them?

 
How do we feel stacking up a boycott based on ethical principles and human rights against, for example, the Left 4 Dead 2 boycott - which is an outburst against Valve for, amongst other things, putting out content which doesn't justify an individual release with a full retail price tag.
 

I think it's ridiculous that an entire dev team should be punished for an individuals ridiculously backwards world perspective - especially when the game is not a vehicle being used to channel it. Gaygamer issued this article in response:

I still don't have an answer for myself. I think if you're obviously too disgusted to enjoy the game, avoid it, and speak out. However, if you want to play the game, play it. Enjoy it, but offset the hate: if you buy Shadow Complex, donate $5, $10, $15 if you can spare it to a gay charity. Let them know why you're giving the money. Card won't get nearly that much per game. In message boards or user reviews, in blogs or tweets, if it comes up, let people know exactly what Card has said on the matter, and where, and damn him with his own language.

Money is important, but far more important to him, and to history, is his legacy. You can tell from his reactions how much being called a homophobe rankles him. Increasingly and through his own work, the line on Orson Scott Card has moved away from "respected science fiction author" to "kind of insane about this whole gay thing." As his views become more and more fringe, and we continue to gain the rights he's fighting against, he'll retreat further into a conservative ghetto. At that point the country will either persist as it has for hundreds of years, or Card will be right, we'll lose our reproductive imperative, and civilization will be over. If that happens, I'll owe him a coke. Caffeine-free, of course.

Which makes sense.

Offset the hate, yo!


 
I already bought the game. It's awesome, and worthy of your hard earned. I consider this blog post my good deed for the day. You guys can make up your own minds :) 
 
Thanks For Reading
Love Sweep

Moderator
#1 Posted by Sweep (8816 posts) -

 Orson Scott Card, designer of the world in which Shadow Complex is set, is a chronic homophobe. Some people seem to believe the indirect profits Card receives from this game justify a complete Boycott. I appreciate there are probably people here who both agree and disagree with this sentiment; despite a complete absence of any anti-gay themes featuring in the game. (Thanks to Coins from Neogaf for the links)
 
Heres some ramblings from Card:

Homophobe. lol.

 The first and greatest threat from court decisions in California and Massachusetts, giving legal recognition to "gay marriage," is that it marks the end of democracy in America.

 Already in several states, there are textbooks for children in the earliest grades that show "gay marriages" as normal. How long do you think it will be before such textbooks become mandatory -- and parents have no way to opt out of having their children taught from them?

 
How do we feel stacking up a boycott based on ethical principles and human rights against, for example, the Left 4 Dead 2 boycott - which is an outburst against Valve for, amongst other things, putting out content which doesn't justify an individual release with a full retail price tag.
 

I think it's ridiculous that an entire dev team should be punished for an individuals ridiculously backwards world perspective - especially when the game is not a vehicle being used to channel it. Gaygamer issued this article in response:

I still don't have an answer for myself. I think if you're obviously too disgusted to enjoy the game, avoid it, and speak out. However, if you want to play the game, play it. Enjoy it, but offset the hate: if you buy Shadow Complex, donate $5, $10, $15 if you can spare it to a gay charity. Let them know why you're giving the money. Card won't get nearly that much per game. In message boards or user reviews, in blogs or tweets, if it comes up, let people know exactly what Card has said on the matter, and where, and damn him with his own language.

Money is important, but far more important to him, and to history, is his legacy. You can tell from his reactions how much being called a homophobe rankles him. Increasingly and through his own work, the line on Orson Scott Card has moved away from "respected science fiction author" to "kind of insane about this whole gay thing." As his views become more and more fringe, and we continue to gain the rights he's fighting against, he'll retreat further into a conservative ghetto. At that point the country will either persist as it has for hundreds of years, or Card will be right, we'll lose our reproductive imperative, and civilization will be over. If that happens, I'll owe him a coke. Caffeine-free, of course.

Which makes sense.

Offset the hate, yo!


 
I already bought the game. It's awesome, and worthy of your hard earned. I consider this blog post my good deed for the day. You guys can make up your own minds :) 
 
Thanks For Reading
Love Sweep

Moderator
#2 Posted by natetodamax (19170 posts) -

I don't get it...

#3 Posted by jkz (4001 posts) -

I posted in another thread about this, in short, it's card's views, no reason to punish an entire dev team that worked so hard to provide such a quality product, simply because they chose to affiliate themselves with someone who's views are, at the very least, despicable.

#4 Posted by brukaoru (5079 posts) -

I can certainly understand why some people would boycott buying the game entirely, but I don't think it matters how many people purchase the game, I doubt his views on gay marriage would change based on the amount of copies sold. Gaygamer's advice is good, whether these people who are boycotting can donate money to a charity or not, they can spread the message of their views in a much more effective way.

#5 Posted by Chaser324 (6317 posts) -

I seriously doubt whatever money Card receives from this game is really going to help him advance his crazy hate agenda all that much. In the end I think that your decision to purchase Shadow Complex should come down to the quality of the game and not the content of Card's character. 
 
Chair has put together an amazingly top-notch product, and they deserve to be successful and put out many more games in the future. Don't punish them just because your world view is contrary to that of Card.

Moderator Online
#6 Posted by Sweep (8816 posts) -
@natetodamax said:
" I don't get it... "
One of the games designers publicly speaks out against homosexuality. People don't want to buy his game. 
 
What's not to get?
Moderator
#7 Posted by natetodamax (19170 posts) -
@Sweep said:
" @natetodamax said:
" I don't get it... "
One of the games designers publicly speaks out against homosexuality. People don't want to buy his game.   What's not to get? "
Oh, alright. I read through it pretty fast and didn't quite understand what the deal was.
#8 Posted by ArbitraryWater (11462 posts) -

This is like the third thread about this topic...
But yeah, I really don't care anymore. People can have their beliefs and people can criticize others for their beliefs.

#9 Posted by Vitor (2809 posts) -

As long as the game isn't a vehicle for his outdated views then I don't see the problem with purchasing it - I did on launch day and as ethical as I tend to be, can't say I'm feeling any pangs of guilt for doing so

#10 Posted by Lies (3866 posts) -

Card personally is a reprehensible bigot. This has been known for quite a while, although maybe not so much in the gaming sphere since Card hasn't been involved since Advent Rising.
 
That doesn't diminish his works or his ability to tell a good story.

#11 Posted by TheKidNixon (1564 posts) -
@Sweep said:
" @natetodamax said:
" I don't get it... "
One of the games designers publicly speaks out against homosexuality. People don't want to buy his game.   What's not to get? "
To be clear: Card wasn't really all that involved in the game's "design" other than giving a world and general outline for the script to be written by Peter David. David, by the way, isn't a homophobe, but he certainly has his own controversial beliefs, including that most cases of mental illness are infact fabrications and mostly unintelligent people unable to cope with their own stupidity.
 
I can understand why certain groups wouldn't feel comfortable supporting anything even tangentially related to Card; he's had to deal with that for quite some time now, and it happens anytime you have an author who's opinions are  to the left or right of the general populace. It is less a fear that the money will go to Card's suppose anti-homosexual agenda (he doesn't actually have any organization one can speak of) than a uneasiness of supporting someone so hateful with their own way of life.
 
For those that want to experience this (excellent) game but have the moral block, I think that GayGamer's solution is a good one, though it has the undercurrent of suggeting that money in Card's pocket goes directly into combating gay rights. Which is, ultimately, false; he's an author, not an activist, and his money goes primarily to feeding his family.
#12 Edited by rateoforange (403 posts) -

I don't particularly care about this issue either way, but his views are shared by a bare majority of Americans and are hardly fringe beliefs. Gay marriage initiatives have been defeated at the ballot box again and again. 
 
So really, it would serve your cause better to stop pretending these people are outside the mainsteam.

#13 Posted by impalerXZ (85 posts) -

People want to boycott a game because someone expressed his opinion? Doesn't that kind of prove his point?

#14 Posted by TheGremp (2064 posts) -

Oh, no!  He has different views than us, so we need to boycott the non-homophobic game based on his fiction. 
 
Liberals confuse me.  Apparently, people aren't allowed to have their own opinions, beliefs and views.

#15 Posted by ryanwho (12082 posts) -
@impalerXZ said:
" People want to boycott a game because someone expressed his opinion? Doesn't that kind of prove his point? "
Stop trying to reason with the ignorant.
#16 Posted by JJWeatherman (14557 posts) -

How is this a good deed?

#17 Posted by ryanwho (12082 posts) -
@JJWeatherman said:
" How is this a good deed? "
Save the world, one empty gesture at a time.
#18 Posted by jakob187 (21642 posts) -

As I said in another thread, it doesn't matter, and people are being too uptight over a person's beliefs.  Gay marriage is something to be decided at the state level, not the federal level, and the United States is one nation under God.  That means no gay marriage, it's defined as a man and a woman, end story.  I've already got an argument going on in another thread about this.  Don't want to bother dragging it out over many threads.

#19 Posted by lemon360 (1102 posts) -

Why the fuck should this matter? let him have his fucking opinion and let people play the damn game.
#20 Posted by ZombiePie (5580 posts) -

You known Will Wright contributed heavily to the Republican Party, but that didn't stop me from buying and enjoying Spore even though I disagree heavily with the Republican party. Chair and Epic both are not known to discriminate when hiring individuals to develop video games. So that means all kinds of people where involved in Shadow Complex's development; those who feel marriage is a universal right and those who feel homosexuality is a sin.

Moderator
#21 Posted by Breadfan (6589 posts) -

People are always saying foolish things that cause quite a stir.  I personally do not agree with Car's views, but I am not going to let his beliefs influence what I buy.  There are plenty of other people who worked on Shadow Complex and it is not right to punish them for one man's view.

#22 Posted by TripMasterMunky (2403 posts) -

He didn't make the game by himself. Who cares what he thinks. It's about the entire dev team. They made a good game. I'm going to support it.

#23 Posted by ryanwho (12082 posts) -

I find it ironic that a party calling themselves "liberal" seems to love censorship and blacklisting so much. Everyone on earth thinks they're right, and very few agree with one another. This is no different than if a Christian group banned a film because the assistant scriptwriter was an outspoken atheist or something. Its so ridiculous to punish the game for this. No, but its right doing that here because he's clearly wrong, right? No. Its never the right thing to do. Freedom of speech doesn't mean "freedom of peer reviewed and pre approved viewpoints that don't conflict with objectively sound and correct progressive humanist viewpoints".

#24 Posted by ArchScabby (5809 posts) -

Even if it is his story, just because you disagree with some if his views doesn't mean you can't like his work.  As long as he doesn't try to force his beliefs on you in his work, then it isn't that big a deal.  Just because two people don't think about everything the exact same doesn't mean they can't enjoy other parts of each other.

#25 Posted by Fezz (440 posts) -

I don't see how allowing gay marriage would destroy democracy. 

#26 Posted by EvilTwin (3324 posts) -

 @TheKidNixon said:

"though it has the undercurrent of suggeting that money in Card's pocket goes directly into combating gay rights. Which is, ultimately, false; he's an author, not an activist, and his money goes primarily to feeding his family. "
He absolutely is an activist.  He sits on the board of directors of the "National Organization for Marriage".  Read about them here.  They were hugely supportive of Prop 8, and accept donations to fund their various projects all relating to their anti-same sex marriage agenda. 
#27 Posted by Oni (2094 posts) -

So Card is bigoted scum, he isn't the only one. And I doubt he's using money earned from Shadow Complex to promote some anti-gay agenda, so whatevs. Play the game because it is rad.

#28 Posted by EvilTwin (3324 posts) -
@ryanwho said:
" I find it ironic that a party calling themselves "liberal" seems to love censorship and blacklisting so much. Everyone on earth thinks they're right, and very few agree with one another. This is no different than if a Christian group banned a film because the assistant scriptwriter was an outspoken atheist or something. Its so ridiculous to punish the game for this. No, but its right doing that here because he's clearly wrong, right? No. Its never the right thing to do. Freedom of speech doesn't mean "freedom of peer reviewed and pre approved viewpoints that don't conflict with objectively sound and correct progressive humanist viewpoints". "
What in the world are you talking about?  Deciding whether or not to support a game based on who is involved is not at all the same as trying to ban a film.  People can have an opinion on this without being extremists.   
 
Besides, Orson Scott Card is not just a man with an opinion.  He actively participates in the political process to try and ban same-sex marriage in the U.S.  If there is a chance that buying this game could help further that cause, why shouldn't people who don't have the same beliefs boycott it if they want to? 
#29 Posted by GreggD (4477 posts) -

Just saw the article Kotaku put up on this a few minutes ago. In short, I'm glad I paid for this game, as I am thoroughly enjoying it. I don't support Card's opinions, and he was so loosely connected to the development of the game that I really shouldn't care, anyway. 
 
And on the point that offsetting the balance through donations, well...I do enough as it is to support gay rights without having to delve into that. I love my brother, who is gay, and I like his friends, who also happen to be gay. I don't necessarily need to speak out one way or the other to feel like I'm making a difference. Coexisting with love and not hate alone should be enough, don't you think?

#30 Posted by SJSchmidt93 (4884 posts) -

Yeah.. Rebel FM had a giant Orson Scott Card disscussion this week. 
 
Pretty interesting.

#31 Posted by ryanwho (12082 posts) -

Oh, they can if they want. If their goal is to do as little as possible and tell themselves they did something, this is a "cause" to believe in. But if you bothered to read the blog, you'd see their goal with card is to smeer his proffesional career because of his personal ideology which is just incredibly petty no matter how you rationalize it.

#32 Posted by LordAndrew (14424 posts) -
@ryanwho said:
" I find it ironic that a party calling themselves "liberal" seems to love censorship and blacklisting so much. "
Whoa whoa whoa whoa WHOA! Stop right there. What are you even talking about? Who's censoring stuff?
#33 Posted by sdauz (430 posts) -

sooo much homophobia, if some dudes wanna bat for the other team, that is their perogative.....i always find ppl against gay ppl weak and small minded....they had a choice on how to live their lives and now they choose to tell others how to live...isnt america about freedom and espacing persecution.

#34 Posted by ryanwho (12082 posts) -

I'll put it another way, twin. 
If gay marriage is such an obvious truism, a pillar for civil rights destined to come to pass in any true civil and free society, its going to happen no matter what someone like Card says or does. We have a black president now despite having people in public office who are clearly racist. So gay marriage will happen, probably during Obama's lame duck period but it'll happen nonetheless in the near future and everyone knows that. So these character assassinations on Card that have no relevance to his professional work, this boycott taking money away from a competent and talented developer that deserves to be successful; it just seems so childish to me and ultimately it seems like an empty gesture that only really damages a talented dev studio.

#35 Posted by LordAndrew (14424 posts) -
@ryanwho said:
" Oh, they can if they want. If their goal is to do as little as possible and tell themselves they did something, this is a "cause" to believe in. But if you bothered to read the blog, you'd see their goal with card is to smeer his proffesional career because of his personal ideology which is just incredibly petty no matter how you rationalize it. "
I certainly would not attempt to rationalize it, because I don't feel it's rational. But it's far from censorship.
#36 Posted by JamesF (1489 posts) -

Just because he's an asshole doesn't mean the game and it's devs should suffer. And while I agree that he's a bigoted asshole, the mere fact that there's a website devoted to video game fans who are gay also bothers me. Just because they're gay doesn't mean they should have their own website and get worked up over something like this. This shouldn't even be a problem. It's not like Giant Bomb says: "Must be straight to enter".  
 
I understand where they're coming from, but I also think they're going about it the wrong way. 

#37 Posted by EvilTwin (3324 posts) -
@ryanwho said:
" Oh, they can if they want. If their goal is to do as little as possible and tell themselves they did something, this is a "cause" to believe in. But if you bothered to read the blog, you'd see their goal with card is to smeer his proffesional career because of his personal ideology which is just incredibly petty no matter how you rationalize it. "
I've already read the article and you're blowing it entirely out of proportion.  Making people aware of Card's ideology is not smearing his career.  He's the most outspoken of anyone about his beliefs.  His words verbatim about the issue are a matter of public record.  Not only that, but he acts on his beliefs with his time and money.  If you buy this game you are putting money (albeit probably a small amount) into his pocket.  If that contributes to something you don't stand for, and you decide to boycott it, that is your right.  That is anyone's right.   
#38 Posted by Jimbo (9772 posts) -

This is dumb as hell.  Chances are, if you buy anything, there will have been somebody involved that has an opinion you deem to be unworthy.  Best not buy anything to be on the safe side.  If it's only a problem because this guy has voiced his opinion, then to me that just proves that the opposition is about how they want to be perceived, rather than any genuine moral opposition.
 
In fact, the entire idea behind 'Gaygamer' is retarded, imo.  I hate it when people bitch about equality, then take every opportunity to segregate themselves and define themselves entirely by one facet of their personality, which they claim they shouldn't be judged for in the first place.  If you don't want x to be an issue then stop using it to draw attention to yourself.  What next?  Blondegamer?  Tallgamer?  Jebus.

#39 Posted by Fallen189 (4939 posts) -

AMERICA!!!!!!!!

#40 Posted by TragicallyErock (109 posts) -

Doesn't anybody remember the fight in the shower in Ender's Game?  Those young boys all covered in soapy water & sweat. Not only was it disgusting, but it was violent too. They were tying to violently rape Ender & then kill him. OSC is trying to spread "the gay" to all of our children through his novels. I'm going to boycott Ender's game for including Gay rape/pornography!! And you should too.
OSC is not a homophobe... he is totally gay & his writing proves it!
 
 
 

LOL, In case you can't tell... I am being completely sarcastic. :D
To me, this whole boycott is as rediculous as my statement above.
 

Seriously though...
Gamers pick the weirdest sh*t to get in an uproar about.
How the hell does his opinion on homosexuals affect the game in ANY way? It's not like the game tries to push any sort of political agenda on you. It's simply there for your enjoyment. How does boycotting it accomplish anything? You just get to miss out on a fun game for a stupid cause that nobody but you gives a sh*t about. Card will continue to make money because he is a great writer.
 
The whole thing makes no sense to me. 
If you want to play the game, just buy it.

#41 Posted by Novyx (479 posts) -

I was going to try adding to the discussion, but I'm getting too tired of dealing with this to try anymore. I guess I'll just try once more, and I'm out. Everyone has a right to their beliefs. People who want to act on their beliefs are free to take action. That's democracy. Orson Scott Card has chosen to act on his beliefs, as you are also free to do. The responsibility of any individual in a democracy, though, is to be respectful of other individuals. Notice that OSC doesn't make slanderous attacks on people, using derogatory slurs against their character in service of his agenda. So who here is willing to take the high road, give him respect as an individual and simply agree to disagree with his views?

#42 Posted by TheKidNixon (1564 posts) -
@EvilTwin said:
"  @TheKidNixon said:
"though it has the undercurrent of suggeting that money in Card's pocket goes directly into combating gay rights. Which is, ultimately, false; he's an author, not an activist, and his money goes primarily to feeding his family. "
He absolutely is an activist.  He sits on the board of directors of the "National Organization for Marriage".  Read about them here.  They were hugely supportive of Prop 8, and accept donations to fund their various projects all relating to their anti-same sex marriage agenda.  "
I stand corrected, I didn't know he was involved. That certainly makes the GayGamer suggestion much more appealing.
#43 Posted by EvilTwin (3324 posts) -
@Jimbo said:
" This is dumb as hell.  Chances are, if you buy anything, there will have been somebody involved that has an opinion you deem to be unworthy.  Best not buy anything to be on the safe side.  If it's only a problem because this guy has voiced his opinion, then to me that just proves that the opposition is about how they want to be perceived, rather than any genuine moral opposition. "
This argument is not original at all and contributes nothing to this discussion.  Thanks for your opinion on the matter, though.
#44 Posted by LordAndrew (14424 posts) -
@EvilTwin: It doesn't have to be original. It's his own opinion. 
 
I rarely get involved in political topics. No matter what I say, someone is going to hate me for it. I do have opinions on things, I feel rather strongly about some things. But I keep them to myself. It's better for me that way. I don't want to be hated by a bunch of people or having my works boycotted just because my opinion is somehow "wrong". Especially if I'm barely involved in said works.
#45 Posted by link_dc (97 posts) -

I think boycotting the game because of his opinion would only make you a homophobephobe. Don't make me boycott you!

#46 Posted by Sweep (8816 posts) -
@JJWeatherman said:
" How is this a good deed? "
I dont particularly agree with the boycott (I already bought the game) - though I definitely don't agree with Card's views on homosexuality. I was just trying to make sure people are aware of the controversy on the offchance it influences someones decision to buy the game. My "good deed" was trying to help people make an informed purchase.
 
It's slighty paradoxical that the people who keep shouting "everyone is entitled to their own beliefs" are so hostile towards homosexuality.
Moderator
#47 Posted by RenegadeSaint (1522 posts) -

Card's views on homosexuality will not bar me from enjoying a great game.  If the profits were actually making a huge difference in the fight for gay rights, then I'd consider boycotting... but they're not.

#48 Posted by EvilTwin (3324 posts) -
@LordAndrew: I never said it had to be original.  I was just informing him, in a dickish way, that it wasn't and that it contributed nothing new to the discussion. 
#49 Posted by Novyx (479 posts) -

@Sweep said:

I dont particularly agree with the boycott (I already bought the game) - though I definitely don't agree with Card's views on homosexuality. I was just trying to make sure people are aware of the controversy on the offchance it influences someones decision to buy the game. My "good deed" was trying to help people make an informed purchase.  It's slighty paradoxical that the people who keep shouting "everyone is entitled to their own beliefs" are so hostile towards homosexuality. "

Did I miss something? Who was hostile towards homosexuality?
#50 Posted by Jimbo (9772 posts) -
@EvilTwin said:
" @Jimbo said:
" This is dumb as hell.  Chances are, if you buy anything, there will have been somebody involved that has an opinion you deem to be unworthy.  Best not buy anything to be on the safe side.  If it's only a problem because this guy has voiced his opinion, then to me that just proves that the opposition is about how they want to be perceived, rather than any genuine moral opposition. "
This argument is not original at all and contributes nothing to this discussion.  Thanks for your opinion on the matter, though. "
Well thank fuck I wasn't looking for your approval then, eh sweet cheeks? xx

This edit will also create new pages on Giant Bomb for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

Comment and Save

Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Giant Bomb users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.