Of course not.

The "weakness" of the Wii U is entirely due to a botched launch. The actual specs of the machine, the name, third parties ditching it, these would never have been issues were it not for that botched launch. Proof: the 3DS. Every single "criticism" against the Wii U was equally valid for the 3DS until Monster Hunter happened. One game!

StarFox Zero has been blown completely out of proportion. The vast majority of people "criticizing" the game are people who don't really like StarFox at all, and see it as some ancient nostalgia game (it's not). Similarly, the new Zelda has been "criticized" for making the exact same move that Twilight Princess had received praise for, even though before now, everyone had wanted the new Zelda on the NX except for the Wii U fanboys who were convinced that the game was going to remain Wii U-only.

It's a giant string of lies. I don't know if people forget or if they just hope everyone else isn't paying attention.

And here we are with attempting to "criticize" Miyamoto. He simply doesn't have the influence everyone thinks he does; he's a mentor, not a commander. There aren't even any classic memes such as New Super Mario Bros. here; StarFox Zero and the new Zelda is enough for 2016. On that note, NSMB was not Miyamoto's idea and he did not want to make the game. I'm actually afraid to say that because the people who hate NSMB will use it to claim how Miyamoto doesn't "understand" the people (because NSMB was a success).

Old developers do not run companies into the ground; they do what they do separate from anyone else, as they should. The people who worship or condemn old developers as God or Satan, with all the religious fervor thereof, are who run companies into the ground. Instead of blaming the names you know, look into the names you don't.

I would say that he is almost certainly a detriment to large parts of the company. His design philosophies still largely reflect an era that we have left behind a long time ago. He is one of the greatest game designers of all time, but every game designer eventually reaches a point at which their personal experience and accomplishments simply can't keep up with changing consumer expectations and paradigm shifts. Combine this with the fact that his words seem to be taken as gospel by Nintendo employees, and you have someone who is holding Nintendo back from being what it could (and should) be, which is a more agile and modern studio working on combining their hardware and software in meaningful and innovative ways.

I don't think that he should be fired or removed from the company, but his words should certainly not be the final say in any given matter.

No, as long as he's not exhibiting Vince McMahon-like control over the direction of the company. His decades of experience are extremely valuable, and as long as he's a voice in the room it should lead to good ideas. Assuming, of course, people occasionally tell him "no."

It's so weird how we have a tendency to blame/praise one person for the direction of an entire company. Like, I doubt he does much as far as the actual direction of the company goes beyond looking at stuff other people are proposing and going, "Yup, that sounds good."

This conversation seems insane to me. I might have blinders on, but this is Shigeru Miyamoto. This is THE MAN. And to say that he's at fault for Nintendo's current predicament just doesn't sit right with me in the slightest. Remember, there are a lot of people at Nintendo. Also, we don't know how much involvement he has in decisions like that. From what I've seen, he seems to be more involved with the software-side of that company. There are no reasons/indications to say one way or another. Dude needs to retire though. He deserves it.

I don't think anyone outside of Nintendo knows what Miyamoto is involved with, so putting the blame of Nintendo's failures on him seems a bit unfair if not really easy.

Now if we started looking at Nintendo as a whole... Then we could have a conversation.

Nintendo is old and stale. That is their problem. Japan itself has some problem with age relating to status. Get over it Nintendo.

I wouldn't argue that Nintendo's games have been the sole reason for the 3DS/Wii U success or failure. Does Miyamoto have control over the console development and business side of things? I thought he was more of a creative type, but I could be way off.

I guess you could argue that Nintendo has had some misses game-wise lately, but I don't think it's been any bigger than what you'd see from anyone else. Most of the big flagship games they've released have been pretty solid, honestly. If you're going to blame anyone, blame the company as a whole for poor planning and implementation over the course of the current console generation.

@quantical: Separate discussion, but this just brought to mind North American (and maybe European?) Video game industry issues with ageism and the lack of knowledge of the history of video games (as relating to design and execution). This was brought up in Austin's stuff a while back.

As for Miyamoto, as others above have said, it's hard to pass such hard judgement when we have such an incomplete picture. That said, looking at the ire caused by Miyamoto's decisions in games such as Paper Mario: Sticker Star and Star Fox Zero, I'm leaning to "yes".

Didn't we get news months (or is it years at this point) ago that Miyamoto was going to start reducing his role at Nintendo and let younger developers take over? News that sent Nintendo stocks plummeting and had their PR race to get the word out that he was still going to be making games to some degree?

Nintendo is in a strange transition phase right now. I can't blame that on him.

I get the impression that Miyamoto excelled at compensating for the extremely weak hardware of the 90's, and now that the hardware is good enough to allow developers to do anything they want, he doesn't have that competitive advantage over other developers anymore.

Not directly, but Nintendo certainly feels like a company full of conservative, old-ass men making the same games over and over.

Yeah I think it's hard from the outside to tell just how much influence Miyamoto actually has on any given project. I doubt he's making big hardware decisions at any rate.

I do wish they'd let some of their teams branch out more. Miyamoto's design philosophy does seem overbearing at times. Guess it's makes sense in that Nintendo is at heart a toy company, but I'd be pretty excited if they let some young designers cook up something that Miyamoto would never in a million years would have created.

I wouldn't say he's entirely to blame to for every misstep Nintendo has made, but I definitely get the sense he's the main proponent behind their obsession with gimmicks. Jim Sterling went into this a bit in one of his recent videos.

Last i remember he didn't have much control over the company at all, and a lot of projects didn't directly have him involved just guys he "trained" and there was actually a big thing about him being less involved i thought? I appreciate mario and zelda but they aren't my favorite games, i mean when i was a kid i enjoyed what i thought were "adult" games, so on nintendo i loved contra and double dragon type games more. I think it's more nintendos complete lack of new IP and refusal to reach out to new audiences that's detrimental to their company, at least in the console space. They also need third parties, the lack of support for them is notorious and probably why i haven't loved a nintendo system since the snes. I mean, beyonetta is the only game that makes me kinda want a wiiU, kinda.

Miyamoto is merely one sign or symptom of trouble, but he is not the disease. The disease is a 'value system' that looks one direction only and is ridged in the interpretation of ist own principles or standards.

That may sound weird to some, it might even make people angry, because tehy would scream VALUES ARE GOOD!

No values are neither good nor bad, they just are principles or standards that cna be employed well or poorly.

- Someone might be careful with money, but we can describe that as thrifty or as stingy.

- Someone might be honest; but we can say they are forthright or rude.

The problem with principles or standards is that the exact same ones can be used well or poorly, they can combine to make something desirable or combined to make s mess. I don't even pretend to understand the principles, standards, and values Nintendo has in its top management. Though, I surmise is that they feel that they way they run their company is very honorable, very correct, and very efficient. I bet they could weave a story about "honor, tradition, and loyalty." to describe a company that is making something good. We would all say, "What a shame more companies are not like THAT." with misty eyes.

But that is just one way, of many, to look at their values. You could say, "Stubborn", "Inflexible", and "Myopic" about a company that want to stay a toy company when everyone else know they are an entertainment company. It goes on an on, anything they see a valuable and part of their DNA can just as easily be seen in other flights from foolish to malicious. Remember, if Nintendo gets smaller people LOSE jobs, so at a certain level values be dammed - you owe you loyal employees a fight to remain relevant in the 21st century. Hey, just my opinion...but there it is. And, I use owe in a very traditional sense of taking care of people who work for you...a very old type value that i think can be good. As I said, "honor, tradition, and loyalty." can be good or bad and that cna also depand on WHO you are showing "honor, tradition, and loyalty" to. I'd show it to gamers and employees: not to what Hiroshi Yamauchi though as a crusty old man.

Nintendo's narrow view of their own values is a disease that has the visible effect/symptom of Miyamoto-like games being their focus. Nintendo narrow view of their own values means Minamoto can squash new ideas of games that don't fit his narrow focus of what games should be and can be there.

No, he is genius.

@II_Exile_II

Nintendo developer contracts mention that the primary controller must be supported in games, in this case the WiiU Gamepad, this is one of many Nintendo requirements. You won't find Nintendo breaking their own rules.

@Levio /Pac4Life

Just wait till you see the new Mario before you maintain that view.

Mr Miyamoto does not work on hardware at Nintendo, he hasn't played an active role in development of NX.

"I’ve pulled myself back out of some of the hardware section and I’m really focused on some of the software that I’m involved in—for example, the new Starfox game. Of course I am observing and looking at the hardware, but I am not actively participating and making decisions."

http://www.gamnesia.com/news/miyamoto-is-no-longer-in-charge-of-hardware-development-at-nintendo

Supporting the use of a controller and shoehorning in every single feature of the controller even when it makes the game worse are two completely different things. Wind Waker HD and Twilight Princess HD support the Wii U gamepad and make optional use of some its features, but still allow you to play with the Pro controller or on the gamepad without motion controls if you desire. Star Fox forces every player to use a cumbersome control scheme in the name of innovation. Sure, some players may really like it, but many players don't and have no option to use standard controls, which worked perfectly fine for every other Star Fox game.

No.

Miyamoto works on the software side of the company, and that's where Nintendo has NOT had any problems. The Wii U has plenty of FANTASTIC games made by Nintendo.

Star Fox may suck (haven't played any Wii U games because I don't own one) but Mario Maker was the game of the year last year for MANY people, and I can't imagine Miyamoto had no hand in that, considering it's Mario.

Super Mario 3D World was great, Mario Kart 8 was great, Pikmin 3 was great... Nintendo has been hitting home runs with its first party software over the Wii U life cycle. The problems with the Wii U were in business, online infrastructure, and marketing, maybe hardware design. Nintendo does not have a software problem, unless you consider its cartoony aesthetic to be a 'problem' in which case it goes much much deeper than Miyamoto to the very heart of the company and what it does.

I understand people are disappointed in Star Fox and the cupboard is bare for the next year or so, but if your take away from the Wii U era is that Nintendo is failing on the software design side...man...what industry are you watching?

@ll_exile_ll:

I agree, and then some, but I don't think they could have designed the game for multiple controllers after the inclusion of the primary GamePad mechanics. It was that damaging, that ill-conceived. I'm guessing many aspects of the game simply wouldn't work. For example, I think the speed of the game using a conventional controller would need to be bumped up, significantly. When I first saw footage of the game, the very first thought I had was, this looks slow, they must be catering for young children using Gamepad targeting.

After playing the game, I think they may have been catering for people with four eyes who don't get eye strain. Shambolic game, that started off as a casual title, according to Miyamoto himself. Pick up and Play is Nintendo speak for casual. Attempting to bring a new gen of fans to the series was a good idea, that's where the good ideas stopped. Platinum Games were forced into this bullshit, they must have been, look at how they're about to revitalise the beat em up genre with TMNT, completely unaided. Hideki Kamiya must be upset as a fan.

Fuck no. I don't really understand why the internet lately has decided Miyamoto is to blame every time a game or system isn't exactly what they wanted. Miyamoto has become some kind of villain and it's ridiculous.

People complain that Nintendo keep making the same thing. Then when they do something different with an existing property people lose their minds, particularly if Miyamoto is involved.

He managed to ruin both Paper Mario and Star Fox so the minimum answer is that he's 'not not a detriment.' It seems like he would rather shoehorn gimmicks into everything rather than make the games his fans actually want.

@skinky: We don't know how to apportion the blame for Star Fox. Platinum is far from perfect, even in the beat 'em up genre. Maybe TMNT will be great, but we don't know that yet, but even if they've mastered Beat 'em Up that doesn't mean they know how to make a great Star Fox.

Regardless, one bad game doesn't mean anything. Everyone with a long record of creative projects will have a dud from time to time.

@bigsocrates:

I highly doubt the lowly team working on that game were aiming for perfection, It's a Nickelodeon cash-in ffs.

Hideki Kamiya is one of the greatest videogames designers of all time, before PG got the game for years he often Tweeted that he wanted to make a new game in the series and that he had many ideas. I think thats partly is why PG got the game, also part of the reason were W101s great motion controls. Kamiya sadly was working on something else, allowing Miyamoto to up-end PlatinumGames tea-table and heavily influence design and direction. Pointless even giving them the game...

In the trailer of TMNT I see they've borrowed aspects of Bayonetta's design, that game that got perfect scores and critical acclaim. PG is also the studio that created Vanquish, the game where you slide around at speed, which was crazy fun. I think something like that would look great on a Skateboard cowabunga style.

That implies fans know what they want, and I don't believe that for a moment.

the world needs more miyamoto's not less

On one hand he told the Paper Mario team to not bother writing a story resulting in the worst game I've played Sticker Star. On the other hand he might've been involved in getting Retro on DKC. I don't know. I think overly relying on Miyamoto's input has done more harm than good. Pikmin 3 was really good though.

He is a genius of sorts, but he is old, and old men have inheritantly old ideas. In respect to Miyamoto this is worsened with the advancing pace of what is capable in videogames today, their complexity is far in excess of what he and other from his generation are seamlessly comfortable with. This I think has negative ramifications in the design of certain games, games where players expect and demand advancement in design. Technical teams can certainly help, and at Nintendo they try to. In fact many of Super Mario Galaxy's great platforming design concepts, were in fact discovered by technical teams at Tokyo, who produced remote protos for Miyamoto, some of which rather interestingly, he dismissed because he thought they would be too disorientating for players - many of these actually ended up in Galaxy 2, to critical acclaim. I think he underestimates the capacity of modern gamers, and his young designers on ocassion.

However, big however, some of the best videogames, the most popular videogames are built on simple hooks, simple design concepts which are instantly fun, the kind of things you can build entire games around. Miyamoto's genius is in that, it's also in how he perceives the world as an artist and creates his own, in his videogames. Pikmin being a prime example.

He has a positive role to play in the future, but I still think he fucked up Star Fox, and that he can have a negative impact on a games design. He also, may be guilty of stunting young designers creativity at times, I know of one instance where that seems to be the case. He may also be claiming the plaudits, when others deserve to. Certainly fallible, but still great.

I personally think he should work on protos with young designers, alongside the aid of a proficient technical team, nothing more. I think that would result in more longterm benefit to the company.

Having Miyamoto as a mentor working along new, young talent is more valuable than whatever influence he has on current and future software and hardware Nintendo is working on. And who knows, what if the NX ends up being a massive hit and Miyamoto's next projects are successful and praised by all? It could just take another Wii Sports equivalent to make that happen and Miyamoto is capable of making that a reality.

I know that I want another game that plays like Paper Mario (64) and The Thousand Year Door, and the last three (!) Paper Marios have been nothing even remotely resembling those.

You know, this is interesting. I have no idea the extent of his role, but I think people are way off base saying "absolutely not" because of his past accomplishments. Nintendo feels very dated and behind the times, and it is not impossible to think perhaps he is partially responsible for their dated view on gaming.

Any time you hear about Miyamoto having any involvement with something it's something bad. Unless they're hiding a ton of good decisions he's made, he's a detriment to the company.

What? No. That's dumb. Miyamoto could probably still crank out a masterpiece title right now. The thing is he is not a game designer like that anymore.

He seems like he more does daily business stuff while maintaining some level of creative oversight over the software side. He likely looks at all their projects at some point their development and my offer up some ideas or opinions.

In certain cases he's got the business guys ear enough that he can say "hey this project is really something special." Which I believe was the case for A Link Between Worlds.

He's also probably got the power to say that something is not going to work. Which was probably the case for Star Fox going from the interviews. It seems like Miyamoto himself has the right opinion on Star Fox like Jeff and that it's only good as it's gimmick. Star Fox was good because man look it's 3D on a snes that's crazy. Then Star Fox 64 now it's in actual 3D. Then Star Fox 64 3D now it's in ACTUAL 3D. The new control gimmick for Zero was at least enough to get him to approve it. It just probably didn't shape out how they wanted and bringing in outside developers indication of that as they just wanted to get it out the door at that point.

Nintendo's current problem is that the WiiU was a dud of an idea. They were chasing the Wii dragon. At worst, they probably sat Miyamoto down with a bunch of prototype gimmicks and asked him which one he thought he could design the most games around. If that was the case the other prototypes were probably really bad. At least the WiiU turned out to be a great idea when it was two screens you held in your hand. So you could see how he would choose that one.

All i've heard about his role in games developement recently is that he insisted on putting the Gyrowing stages in Star Fox Zero and that's honestly my only problem with that game. Obviously I would of liked the game to have more stages but i've come to expect Platinum's games to be short, fun, arcade like experiences.

But those gyrowing stages were the equivalent of putting forklift minigames in the middle of Time Crisis.

But the guy brought us Mario, Zelda, Pikmin, Donkey Kong and so on. So he's earned the right to make games as long as he wants. But personally I would like to see him work on smaller projects that can be iterated on faster and leave established franchises to the rest of Nintendo or even 3rd parties that want to do something new with them.

As for the hardware, Does it really matter at this point? I mean look at the Wii U. People can blame the gamepad all they want but most games were compatible with all sorts of controllers so you could play however you wanted and i'm guessing the NX will be the same way.

Errm..

I havent played the game but I thought the mural aspect was the least lauded aspect of the game. It's cool to see how much feedback he gives his team though, and it seemed to have worked out.

Where's the poll about armchair criticism of designers (not their games, but *human beings*) being detrimental?

This topic is pretty ludicrous. Obviously not every game the man makes is perfect, but questioning his "continued involvement" like you should even have any say in the matter is actually a pretty fucked up thing to do. Buy or don't buy his games as you like.

I think you're being a little unreasonable. Why exactly is it so out of line to criticize a creator's work? It's not like the OP or anyone in this thread has personally attacked the man. Questioning and criticizing creative decisions is fair game, and that is all anyone here is doing.

Questioning his continued input is also completely reasonable. Would you feel the same way about someone's right to, for instance, question JJ Abrams' continued involvement in Star Trek based on his track record with that property? I fail to see where any line is being crossed anywhere in this discussion.

Also, the whole "don't buy it if you don't like" is never a good argument. People want things to be good and they want a reason to buy them, so they critique. Saying, "well just don't buy it" is a cop out to avoid criticism.

This is insanity.

The one thing most definitely not wrong with Nintendo is their 1st party software.

If I had to guess when/if Nintendo would meet their demise, it would be when Miyamoto is no longer involved.

I'd wager there's a decent chance your reaction to a game just like that would be "well this turned out to be shit."

I'll take that wager. For as much as there hasn't been a great Mario RPG since Bowser's Inside Story, it would be pretty hard to make a game more fundamentally mediocre than Sticker Star. I imagine there's still a contingent of people desperate enough for a decent Paper Mario game that even an effort half as clever and charming as Thousand Year Door would still be more well received than the cold silence that Color Splash's announcement was met with.

As for the topic, I don't think it's fair to peg Miyamoto of all people as the albatross around Nintendo's neck. He might be part of a larger ingrained problem with that company and its way of doing things, but I'm also not going to complain about the quality of Nintendo's first and second party output over the past few years even if the Wii U turned out to be a sinking ship.

i mean, did he though?

that's a lot to lay at one man's feet. especially when Paper Mario is Intelligent Systems. Star Fox is just more Star Fox. That's not ruining anything. If you pitched what that game is to people before it was released I'm sure people would have loved it.

I think he's better suited as a directly hands-on designer than as a manager or executive. But the laws of seniority and pay scaling kind of make that impossible.

I voted yes.

He's at least ten years past being relevant, and from what I can tell he's a significant part of why the company focuses on lame gimmicks

There's no problem with having someone like that stick around but they shouldn't have the kind of influence that they do, in the modern era

So what are we saying? This hugely experienced industry veteran should just lose his job or resign and that suddenly fixes everything that people perceive as being 'wrong' with Nintendo?

I don't think we know anywhere near enough about his day to day role there to speculate on this kind of thing. It seems like a huge oversimplification. Like insane.

I'm sure it's partially because I only hear about when his involvement is to the detriment of his games, but I can't help but look at Wii Music, or him telling the staff to get rid of all the story in Paper Mario (resulting in Sticker Star), or the gimmicky GamePad controls that add nothing in Star Fox Zero, and wonder if he's just out of touch at this point.

I'd also take the wager. I replayed both of those games earlier this year; even if a new game wasn't as good as either, I'd still enjoy it if it had the same systems in place.

http://iwataasks.nintendo.com/interviews/#/3ds/papermario/0/2

Tough to say, don't know how much of a say he has on everything there though it's only logical to think it must be quite substantial.

I'll never foget how ridiculous that Wii music presentation was... One of the most worthless pieces of software ever to grace mankind... Maybe he is out if touch...

All Nintendo needs to do is to drop the fucking gimmicky bs and release a solid piece of hardware where people can play all their fantastic first party stuff plus anything else they fancy; There, done!, they win period.

Right, Nintendo could use a top to bottom overhaul. Bring the young bloods in to work on the top-tier franchises. Take more risks on new IP a la Splatoon. Have the old guard focus on specific areas that play to their strengths: Aonuma--handheld, Miyamoto--mobile (his design philosophy would really excel), etc.

I have no idea how much stuff Miyamoto influences. I know he's head of software, but I don't think we know how much he sticks his nose in across the board, do we?

I think the 3DS has been pretty successful and I'd put the Wii U's failure down to a lack of a clear identity and a ridiculously awful launch. The software side of both the 3DS and Wii U has been pretty good though. I don't think Nintendo have really lost any of their ability in terms of software. They've just struggled with hardware.