Isn't this thing a little late? I mean, wasn't it a 2008 game? I know the new one is coming out soon, but this still seems odd.

Idiots.

Fuuuuuuck that, I want Atlus to have my babies.

@YI_Orange said:

@casperhertzog: I don't think you really understand Kanji's character. I could try and explain what I mean, but I think @MattBodega did it best a few years ago.

I forgot about that. What an amazing and thought provoking look into Persona 4's greater message.

@JeanLuc: one of the ladies has a really stereotypical drag queen voice?

no wait, it's that it called her "beautiful lady?" I forgot it wasn't voiced D:

@YI_Orange said:

@casperhertzog: I don't think you really understand Kanji's character. I could try and explain what I mean, but I think @MattBodega did it best a few years ago.

I had no idea he did a write up on Kanji, and reading through at least part of it, that seems incredibly well done and accurate. Glad I saw your post pointing it out, thanks.

This is seriously kinda upsetting. The Persona team is literally the one team I can think of who include honest, positive treatments of sexual minorities in their games.

@Turambar said:

@Animasta said:

@JeanLuc: one of the ladies has a really stereotypical drag queen voice?

no wait, it's that it called her "beautiful lady?" I forgot it wasn't voiced D:

That's also just cross dressing, not transgender. Honestly, this guy. If he wants to start digging at the faults of old games, at least go for an example with some amount of merit. Anyone remember the original Revelations: Persona where one of the goofier characters in the JP version was made black for the NA version and spoke in ebonics? Should we boycott for 15 year old racism now?

the transgender umbrella does include cross dressing (also pretty sure she was transsexual even if she forgot to shave [like that would ever happen])

@Turambar said:

@Animasta said:

@JeanLuc: one of the ladies has a really stereotypical drag queen voice?

no wait, it's that it called her "beautiful lady?" I forgot it wasn't voiced D:

That's also just cross dressing, not transgender. Honestly, this guy. If he wants to start digging at the faults of old games, at least go for an example with some amount of merit. Anyone remember the original Revelations: Persona where one of the goofier characters in the JP version was made black for the NA version and spoke in ebonics? Should we boycott for 15 year old racism now?

the transgender umbrella does include cross dressing (also pretty sure she was transsexual even if she forgot to shave [like that would ever happen])

well they changed it for P3P so it's not like it's SUPER relevant now I suppose

@YI_Orange: he has made good points but ones that are mostly irrelevant to my post. i'm not arguing that about the nature of kanji's character (which i think i did understand) i'm arguing about atlus missing an opportunity to reflect reality/ represent an under-represented character-type in gaming which in my opinion would have been a much more interesting and more challenging topic than kanjis arc.

mattbodega nails my feeling on the game although he dismisses it

"And so many people WANT Kanji to be gay. The reason that Burch included Kanji on the list is specifically for that reason. So many other game players WANTED Kanji to be gay, because video games are in desperate need for those gay characters who are not stereotypes. If Kanji did come out in the game and say hewas gay, it would provide some really interesting interactions throughout the game, just as Burch said; it would allow the game to show interactions of a gay teenager in high school. And that would be just the kind of insightful, meaningful representation of homosexuality that gaming needs."

they had a chance to take a risk and in my opinion they told a much easier/ less relevant story

@casperhertzog: My point is that people calling Kanji not being explicitly gay a "coward" solution or "cop out" or whatever are kind of being unfair. Kanji was never supposed to be about that. I don't believe that Atlus went into it with the intention of Kanji tackling the issue of gay teens and then went "aaaactually, let's not do this". Also, I feel that Kanji's arc is the most relevant and interesting in the game. It's something people, not necessarily just teens(but mostly) go through in general instead of limiting it to gay people. The views of society are incredibly important to teens, and like Kanji, some might even come to believe that if everyone says something, it must be true. Like Kessler said, it's not about Kanji struggling with being gay, it's about Kanji struggling with being PERCEIVED as gay and the rejection and insecurities that come with it.

@Animasta said:

@JeanLuc said:

Ok reading though the article more thoroughly, it at one point mentions how Person 2 and Persona 3 include transphobic jokes and how Catherine was insulting in the way it handled Erica. I haven't played Persona 2 but I have played Persona 3 and I don't remember any transphobic jokes. I also didn't have a problem with Erica or the way she was treated, but I'm also not the best person to judge. The article never gave examples to support their claims. I'm all fine for someone wanting to point out something they think is wrong but arguements like this without evidince is a personal pet peeve of mine. Does anyone know about the transphobic jokes from P2 and P3 they are talking about? Also did anybody not like the way Erica was handled in Catherine? I would love to hear someone else's opinion.

I think that the thing in persona 2 is that one of the characters crossdresses (really it's more homophobic than transphobic)

What character did this? I can't remember for the life of me.

"I feel that these people are miss understanding Naoto's story and are blowing it out of partition."

Heh.

@Bocam: jun, I think the contact thing between him and lisa has her complaining that he's prettier than she is

@JeanLuc said:

Ok reading though the article more thoroughly, it at one point mentions how Person 2 and Persona 3 include transphobic jokes and how Catherine was insulting in the way it handled Erica. I haven't played Persona 2 but I have played Persona 3 and I don't remember any transphobic jokes. I also didn't have a problem with Erica or the way she was treated, but I'm also not the best person to judge. The article never gave examples to support their claims. I'm all fine for someone wanting to point out something they think is wrong but arguements like this without evidince is a personal pet peeve of mine. Does anyone know about the transphobic jokes from P2 and P3 they are talking about? Also did anybody not like the way Erica was handled in Catherine? I would love to hear someone else's opinion.

In Persona 3 there is a beach scene where the guys are checking out women, one after another, and the last women turns out to be a guy and they are all scared or grossed out I don't really remember.

EDIT: haha turns out that boycott Atlus site has articles on every insenstive scene in every Atlus published title, including that scene. http://boycottatlus.tumblr.com/post/26176012116/in-persona-3-three-male-characters-engage-in

@casperhertzog said:

they had a chance to take a risk and in my opinion they told a much easier/ less relevant story

How is it an easier or less relevant story to talk about society projecting what should and should not be acceptable interests and behaviors based on gender? Regardless of whether or not the individuals are gay or not? How is a less relevant story to talk about something that affects every person regardless of sexual preferences? If anything it's a more relevant story as it connects to more people on a more fundamental level than just strictly talking about sexual preferences of teenagers in high school. I'm not saying that a game should never tell a story of the struggles of someone in high school having to deal with the difficulties of being gay in that setting and in society as a whole, but to completely dismiss the story they told through Kanji as "not good enough because it wasn't the story I wanted told" is selling the story, and the problem at the heart of the story, incredibly short.

@MasterRain said:

@JeanLuc said:

Ok reading though the article more thoroughly, it at one point mentions how Person 2 and Persona 3 include transphobic jokes and how Catherine was insulting in the way it handled Erica. I haven't played Persona 2 but I have played Persona 3 and I don't remember any transphobic jokes. I also didn't have a problem with Erica or the way she was treated, but I'm also not the best person to judge. The article never gave examples to support their claims. I'm all fine for someone wanting to point out something they think is wrong but arguements like this without evidince is a personal pet peeve of mine. Does anyone know about the transphobic jokes from P2 and P3 they are talking about? Also did anybody not like the way Erica was handled in Catherine? I would love to hear someone else's opinion.

In Persona 3 there is a beach scene where the guys are checking out women, one after another, and the last women turns out to be a guy and they are all scared or grossed out I don't really remember.

EDIT: haha turns out that boycott Atlus site has articles on every insenstive scene in every Atlus published title, including that scene. http://boycottatlus.tumblr.com/post/26176012116/in-persona-3-three-male-characters-engage-in

This guy is pretty sad if they are posting about almost everything Atlus is releasing.

Wow, and I thought people were stretching for stuff to get mad about before.

@believer258 said:

Wait, I thought Naoto was just a tomboy and not a transgender character?

There's a difference...

yeah.

I’m genderqueer and pansexual and can say I personally wasn't offended at the time by Persona 4, in fact I enjoyed Naoto's and Kanji's stories. 
The tumblr refers to Naoto as "he", but Naoto clearly states that she is female at the end of her story. I can also say I was OK with that and Kanji being left ambiguous.

They didn't handle the message gracefully across the board. In Persona 4 Golden Atlus gave Naoto, the girl who pretends to be a man because she's so frightened of the disrespect she may receive as a woman in her field, an outfit where half of her ass is hanging out.

Boycotts are stupid.

Boycotts are very stupid.

Boycotts work, but usually you have a reason, or something you want them to do. Not just a "boycott them forever"

I'm tired of people being offended.

This is silly. If the game were forcing a post-op transsexual to conform to their original gender, I could understand some outrage. There is no argument that Naoto is a female, and has undergone no surgery. The doesn't focus on gender change, but on coming to terms with one's gender identity, though it may not exactly conform with stereotypes. As many others have mentioned, Naoto contrasts with Kanji. Both of them struggle with the exact same issue: suppression of the more feminine aspects of their personalty. Naoto is a female, and a brilliant detective. Because of this, she feels she must be more masculine to be accepted. Inside, she has a feminine side, but suppresses it. I think that, though it's silly, the whole breast size thing can be seen of symbolic of this. Kanji is a tough guy who likes to sew, which is considered a feminine activity. Their respective dungeons don't represent who they actually are, but rather what they fear they could be. They feel that their feelings put them on a slippery slope to becoming a person they don't want to become. Kanji doesn't want to be a flamboyant homosexual, and Naoto doesn't want to be a man. Similarly, Rise doesn't want to be a whore. By exploring these inner fears, they each come to terms with who they really are, and are better people for it.

Another good contrast character is Chie. Chie doesn't have a dungeon with an evil version of herself, and of all the characters, she seems the most comfortable with who she is. Like Kanji and Naoto, she's not a stereotypical female. She like kickboxing and kung-fu movies. Unlike the other two, she doesn't hide this, but embraces who she is. For this reason, she never has to confront her inner demons and fears.

Are we tired of Chick-Fil-A already?

I read the "why you should boycott" and basically it comes down to boycotting Japanese entertainment, because I've seen the same perspectives in anime and live action films from Japan. It's just who they are right now and I don't think America of all places should be lecturing them on what's acceptable to our consumers. That will be determined by the Japanese themselves. Besides, I in my caveman-like ways enjoy their 1950's-ish approach to sexual roles as an amusement. I don't wish to see the US turn back the clock, but I don't begrudge them for being who they are. Perhaps in another 50 years they'll have a different outlook, and we'll be organizing protests over the unfair treatment of block cheese.

Japanese games man.

There are so many issues that could be addressed about a lot of games. Hell, there are a lot of issues that could be discussed and argued about strictly within JRPGs and their portrayal of gender/race/sexual preference and how hamfisted and ignorant it can be at times.

Why the hell are they going after a company that for the most part does right by these things? Hell, I have my issues with Catherine but from what I understand the character of Erica was one of the more highly thought of parts that I always hear whenever a podcast or reviewer discusses that game.

@zombiebigfoot said:

Boycotts are stupid.

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

Boycotts are very stupid.

Also prime examples of how society has marginalized males when the word itself is genderist. How come there's no such thing as a "girlcott"? Is there something acceptable about associating the male gender with what boils down to excommunication? I find it downright appalling and hypocritical that someone who is opposed to such oppressive gender stereotypes is her/himself a part of the oppressive machine.

@Gaff said:

@zombiebigfoot said:

Boycotts are stupid.

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

Boycotts are very stupid.

Also prime examples of how society has marginalized males when the word itself is genderist. How come there's no such thing as a "girlcott"? Is there something acceptable about associating the male gender with what boils down to excommunication? I find it downright appalling and hypocritical that someone who is opposed to such oppressive gender stereotypes is her/himself a part of the oppressive machine.

I'm sure if given the opportunity, bitches can cott just as well as any of us.

@YI_Orange: @FateOfNever: I agree with everything you both said. I think many heterosexual males have dealt with this same issue. They fear that they can't like certain things or feel a certain ways because they might be perceived as gay. A fear that you'll be perceived as gay is not the same as being gay. And, of course, it's a very relevant issue.

@MasterRain: I guess don't see a problem with that scene in the game. Perhaps their problem is that it's supposed to be a humorous scene, and the trans person is made to be a joke. But, honestly, that's a natural reaction to discovering that a woman you are initially attracted to has undergone a sex change operation. I've never really experienced this first hand, but I know I wouldn't just shrug my shoulders and move on. Perhaps I'm a terrible person, but I wouldn't date a transwoman. I would absolutely never want to marginalize transsexuals, or think of them as lesser people, or do anything like that, but I would never date one.

@Gaff said:

Also prime examples of how society has marginalized males when the word itself is genderist. How come there's no such thing as a "girlcott"? Is there something acceptable about associating the male gender with what boils down to excommunication? I find it downright appalling and hypocritical that someone who is opposed to such oppressive gender stereotypes is her/himself a part of the oppressive machine.

You're joking, right? Right?

@mandude said:

@Gaff said:

Also prime examples of how society has marginalized males when the word itself is genderist. How come there's no such thing as a "girlcott"? Is there something acceptable about associating the male gender with what boils down to excommunication? I find it downright appalling and hypocritical that someone who is opposed to such oppressive gender stereotypes is her/himself a part of the oppressive machine.

You're joking, right? Right?

Goddammit, Poe's Law.

@Gaff: Thank god. I would have assumed, only for the fact that I've seen someone seriously hold those sentiments before.

@laserbolts said:

Man people are stupid.

Man people? You mean, like... "crap people"?

@Alkaiser said:

There are so many issues that could be addressed about a lot of games. Hell, there are a lot of issues that could be discussed and argued about strictly within JRPGs and their portrayal of gender/race/sexual preference and how hamfisted and ignorant it can be at times.

Why the hell are they going after a company that for the most part does right by these things? Hell, I have my issues with Catherine but from what I understand the character of Erica was one of the more highly thought of parts that I always hear whenever a podcast or reviewer discusses that game.

Apparently, making a trans character memorable an likeable doesn't count for squat if they "didn't do it right". I think it's silly to insist that a character be the absolute paragon of sanity in a game themed around... well, crazy people.

@Gaff said:

@zombiebigfoot said:

Boycotts are stupid.

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

Boycotts are very stupid.

Also prime examples of how society has marginalized males when the word itself is genderist. How come there's no such thing as a "girlcott"? Is there something acceptable about associating the male gender with what boils down to excommunication? I find it downright appalling and hypocritical that someone who is opposed to such oppressive gender stereotypes is her/himself a part of the oppressive machine.

...

I can't take this seriously.

Edit: Nevermind, my stupid brain didn't think to scroll down a little.

This seems like an issue for people judging a game based on what they want it to be rather than what the game really is. I totally agree that video games should feature transgender characters in non-embarrassing roles. Also gay and lesbian characters. And all women. And also Non-white males.Actually, how about just positive portayals of different types of characters besides bald whites.

However, in the specific case of Persona 4, I feel that referring to the game as a mistreatment of transgender individuals misses one of the game's specific points. Again and again in Persona 4, characters with specific interests (specifically Kanji and Naoto) are chastised-by the people around them and their own Shadows--because they don't properly conform to what society expects them to do in accordance to their gender. Kanji excels in craft work--which is gendered by individuals into a "woman activity"--and Naoto seeks to be an investigator--gendered as a "male activity." These characters specific storylines are centered around coming to terms with their interests AND their genders, and ultimately finding the strength to accept the people that they are instead of torturing themselves over not fitting to society's arbitrary gender policies and expectations. I ended up writing about Kanji and gendered expectations of males a while ago to try and flesh out why I think the game does this extremely well.

In the case of this boycott, I think it is misguided--though clearly well-intentioned--to take Persona 4 to task for transgender issues. I don't believe any of the characters in P4 are gay, but the point of that is to try and divorce gender politics from issues of sexuality--to portray characters accepting that they do not conform to society expectations, and, in turn, to not put so much emphasis in conforming to those expectations in the first place.

HOWEVER! In this boycotts defense, I agree 1000% that the Persona 4 anime has a grossly flamboyant portrayals of homosexuality. That anime adaptation is gross, and really shows how much better the PS2 game is than the 20+episode long TV show adaptation.

@MattBodega said:

HOWEVER! In this boycotts defense, I agree 1000% that the Persona 4 anime has a grossly flamboyant portrayals of homosexuality. That anime adaptation is gross, and really shows how much better the PS2 game is than the 20+episode long TV show adaptation.

This may show a bit too much of my bias, but I'm not surprised that the anime would mess it up. The majority of anime seems to be completely morally defunct when it comes to handling sensitive issues and not pandering to the lowest common denominator. Emphasis on low.

@Gaff said:

@zombiebigfoot said:

Boycotts are stupid.

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

Boycotts are very stupid.

Also prime examples of how society has marginalized males when the word itself is genderist. How come there's no such thing as a "girlcott"? Is there something acceptable about associating the male gender with what boils down to excommunication? I find it downright appalling and hypocritical that someone who is opposed to such oppressive gender stereotypes is her/himself a part of the oppressive machine.

Boycotting boycotts!

Those are some really broad statements that they are throwing around, and untrue ones at that. Simply buying a product from a company that may or may not "support" an oppressive lifestyle does not make that person an "oppressor". It just makes them a customer. While P4 does rely heavily on the interactions among the group, the author of the blog seem to forget a lot of things, and only pick out the parts that fit their own skewed view of it. Because that is what it is, skewed. I'm not going to act as if Atlus or P4 did everything perfectly but rather worked under the premise of our society, as messed up as that society is.

The neglect, however, of what became of Naoto and Kanji after their story arc, is what really irks me. The game never suggested that the only right way of existing is being a guy. Hell, they say the exact opposite and not really subtly. I really do hope that this goes unnoticed on the Internet, because as much as I want equal rights and all that for every person on earth, boycotts like this will only harm them in the long run, making them seem kind of childish, even.

@PokeIkzai said:

@Gaff said:

@zombiebigfoot said:

Boycotts are stupid.

@NlGHTCRAWLER said:

Boycotts are very stupid.

Also prime examples of how society has marginalized males when the word itself is genderist. How come there's no such thing as a "girlcott"? Is there something acceptable about associating the male gender with what boils down to excommunication? I find it downright appalling and hypocritical that someone who is opposed to such oppressive gender stereotypes is her/himself a part of the oppressive machine.

Boycotting boycotts!

Have you learned nothing?

Seriously? Because the characters became comfortable with their 'built-in' gender and didn't mutilate their genitals, it's seen as some form of transphobia? Get the fuck out!

@MattBodega said:

HOWEVER! In this boycotts defense, I agree 1000% that the Persona 4 anime has a grossly flamboyant portrayals of homosexuality. That anime adaptation is gross, and really shows how much better the PS2 game is than the 20+episode long TV show adaptation.

Fair enough but it not that bad to be boycotted over.

@ajamafalous said:

Wait what the fuck, I thought Naoto was a tomboy not a tranny?

hey fuck you

also, people, just because this boycott is stupid doesn't mean all of them are stupid

@MattBodega: A reasonable post by our fair Bodega! Agreed. And as the anime thing goes... from what I can recall of my reaction to those scenes, I think they struck me more as straight-up dumb than offensive, but I could definitely see it that way. The sensitivity of the situation is lost when you just try to make wacky hijinks out of it. (Also Yosuke is way more of an ass.) But... how much is the Persona game development staff to blame for this? Hardly seems fair to condemn the games for it.

But indeed, before anyone here goes too far badmouthing the blogger, we shouldn't forget that they mean well -- they're just largely misdirecting their energy, methinks. There are places to be outraged by portrayal of LGBT characters, for sure, but these games -- wherein such characters (or characters who can be interpreted as such) are made to be likable, human beings -- are hardly the things to be mad at. If anyone feels the need to go and debate this person, don't go in all guns blazing and mouth a-ragin'. Put on a smile and educate nicely. Looks like they're open to a friendly debate, even if that tone strikes a little self-righteous to me, haha. I guess that comes with the territory when you're running a boycott though.

Did I have a point anywhere in there? Heck, I dunno.

The person who wrote that blog does not know what they are talking about. Persona 4 dealt with issues of gender politics and questioning ones sexual orientation in a respectful manner. Naoto and Kanji during the game were conflicted about how they viewed themselves. Through the help of the people they meet in school and becoming friends. Naoto and Kanji overcome their problems and are accepted by their peers. As for the game Catharine used as an example. The author doesn't bother to name the transgendered character or explain how he/she is being mistreated. The boycott message is a product of a misguided person who has nothing better to do with their time.

What the fuck? Fuck.

No, but seriously, this entire fucking thing falls apart if you stop to think about it for half a microsecond and realize that Naoto is not transgendered.

FUCK THIS FUCK IN THE FUCK!