A "Boycott Atlus" due to representation of transgender characters

#201 Posted by MasterRain (308 posts) -

@BoG said:

@MasterRain: I guess don't see a problem with that scene in the game. Perhaps their problem is that it's supposed to be a humorous scene, and the trans person is made to be a joke. But, honestly, that's a natural reaction to discovering that a woman you are initially attracted to has undergone a sex change operation. I've never really experienced this first hand, but I know I wouldn't just shrug my shoulders and move on. Perhaps I'm a terrible person, but I wouldn't date a transwoman. I would absolutely never want to marginalize transsexuals, or think of them as lesser people, or do anything like that, but I would never date one.

You cannot display the negative aspect of society in media unless you explicitly show its negativity in a fable sort of way. You must show how society SHOULD act. A lot of people are casually racist and sexist in real life, but you cannot show that in media as it projects that it is acceptable.

I am usually one to hate all this political correctness bullshit, but you cannot reinforce negative stereotypes. These videogames are the rolemodels of youth, so when they grow up they don't think transgender people are weird.

#202 Edited by YI_Orange (1128 posts) -

@MasterRain said:

@BoG said:

@MasterRain: I guess don't see a problem with that scene in the game. Perhaps their problem is that it's supposed to be a humorous scene, and the trans person is made to be a joke. But, honestly, that's a natural reaction to discovering that a woman you are initially attracted to has undergone a sex change operation. I've never really experienced this first hand, but I know I wouldn't just shrug my shoulders and move on. Perhaps I'm a terrible person, but I wouldn't date a transwoman. I would absolutely never want to marginalize transsexuals, or think of them as lesser people, or do anything like that, but I would never date one.

You cannot display the negative aspect of society in media unless you explicitly show its negativity in a fable sort of way. You must show how society SHOULD act. A lot of people are casually racist and sexist in real life, but you cannot show that in media as it projects that it is acceptable.

I am usually one to hate all this political correctness bullshit, but you cannot reinforce negative stereotypes. These videogames are the rolemodels of youth, so when they grow up they don't think transgender people are weird.

I don't think Catherine(or most videogames for that matter) is a role model of youth. That aside, I would much rather have how the average person does act as opposed to some bullshit where everyone is hyper-sensitive and the most off-hand of comments is seen as condemnable. Yeah, they treated the Erica situation humorously, but wouldn't most people? There was no malice intended or present on the part of Toby or any of the other guys. Hell, even Erica was making fun of the situation. And reinforcing negative stereotypes? Where do you see a negative stereotype anywhere in Catherine?

Also, just on the subject of stereotypes, I think they're ok in moderation. Most instances of recent usage of stereotypes I can think of are SUPPOSED to be stereotypes and are played for humor.

#203 Posted by BoG (5181 posts) -

@MasterRain: I agree that the depiction in P3 was negative and insensitive towards trans people. My question, though, is this: Is it wrong not to be attracted to a person once you find out they have undergone a gender change operation? Or is overreacting to this knowledge the only crime? As I've stated, you can't mistreat anyone for any reason, but I don't think it's wrong for someone to not want to be intimate with a transsexual. P3 showed a situation with a person who was clearly extreme. It would be a whole lot worse if the person weren't depicted as some sort of sexual predator. Honestly, the best situation in this case would have been to not include the scene in the first place.

I'm curious what the leader of this boycott thinks of "All About My Mother."

#204 Posted by MasterRain (308 posts) -

@BoG said:

@MasterRain: I agree that the depiction in P3 was negative and insensitive towards trans people. My question, though, is this: Is it wrong not to be attracted to a person once you find out they have undergone a gender change operation? Or is overreacting to this knowledge the only crime? As I've stated, you can't mistreat anyone for any reason, but I don't think it's wrong for someone to not want to be intimate with a transsexual. P3 showed a situation with a person who was clearly extreme. It would be a whole lot worse if the person weren't depicted as some sort of sexual predator. Honestly, the best situation in this case would have been to not include the scene in the first place.

I'm curious what the leader of this boycott thinks of "All About My Mother."

@YI_Orange said:

I don't think Catherine(or most videogames for that matter) is a role model of youth. That aside, I would much rather have how the average person does act as opposed to some bullshit where everyone is hyper-sensitive and the most off-hand of comments is seen as condemnable. Yeah, they treated the Erica situation humorously, but wouldn't most people? There was no malice intended or present on the part of Toby or any of the other guys. Hell, even Erica was making fun of the situation. And reinforcing negative stereotypes? Where do you see a negative stereotype anywhere in Catherine?

Also, just on the subject of stereotypes, I think they're ok in moderation. Most instances of recent usage of stereotypes I can think of are SUPPOSED to be stereotypes and are played for humor.

Yeah your right actually, it shouldn't have been in there at all, it was only in there for a bad joke. I think for a lot of people they see it as a tiny moment in the game, but if you were transgender playing up to that moment, and then realising the creators of the game think that way about you.... It would just be horrible. These games are absolutely role models, if you see something in a packaged retail product it is literally saying that it is OK to act that way. You only have to look at racism to see peoples attitudes are determined by the social norm.

I know i sound like the political correctness police, but stuff like this is so sensitive, and there is no need to mock it. Its actually very brave of them to include it in P4 and Catherine.

#205 Posted by George_Hukas (1317 posts) -

@MasterRain said:

These games are absolutely role models, if you see something in a packaged retail product it is literally saying that it is OK to act that way.

If you feel this way, you shouldn't be playing games.. or consuming any sort of entertainment whatsoever.

#206 Posted by AngelN7 (2970 posts) -

Now more than ever people seems like they want to be offended by everything " I want you to know that you hurt my feelings! I don't know wich ones but I'm certain you did hurt them! ".

#207 Posted by MasterRain (308 posts) -

@George_Hukas said:

@MasterRain said:

These games are absolutely role models, if you see something in a packaged retail product it is literally saying that it is OK to act that way.

If you feel this way, you shouldn't be playing games.. or consuming any sort of entertainment whatsoever.

I don't feel that way, its just a fact. If you don't think your attitudes are influenced by what you see and read you are naive.

#208 Posted by Animasta (14648 posts) -

@BoG said:

@MasterRain: I agree that the depiction in P3 was negative and insensitive towards trans people. My question, though, is this: Is it wrong not to be attracted to a person once you find out they have undergone a gender change operation? Or is overreacting to this knowledge the only crime? As I've stated, you can't mistreat anyone for any reason, but I don't think it's wrong for someone to not want to be intimate with a transsexual. P3 showed a situation with a person who was clearly extreme. It would be a whole lot worse if the person weren't depicted as some sort of sexual predator. Honestly, the best situation in this case would have been to not include the scene in the first place.

I'm curious what the leader of this boycott thinks of "All About My Mother."

Erica is probably the most realistic and sensitive portrayal of a trans character in video games so I doubt there's anything that's good, in this person's eyes.

#209 Posted by Nux (2305 posts) -

The stupidity of people can be crushing at times. Oh well people always need something to complain about I guess, even if most or their argument is faulty.

#210 Posted by YI_Orange (1128 posts) -

@MasterRain: It wasn't only in there for the bad joke though. If I recall correctly, they never even explicitly state that Erica is transgender save for one of like six possible endings. And again, that's probably how most people would treat the situation. They didn't just meet Erica, they've known her since high school(not sure when she got the operation done) and still treat her as a member of the crew. They don't look down on her, but they don't give her special treatment either. Portraying it either of those ways would be WAY worse I think. To me, treating her like they would any other person is the best way to handle it since it's more like saying "you may be different, but you're not different"(if that makes sense). Also, and I can only speak for myself here, if a guy I knew from high school was transgender I would probably act the same was as the cast of Catherine. Sure, they may be a woman now, but to me they'd probably always feel like just "one of the guys". That just makes the whole Toby situation more understandable I think.

Also, if you think videogames are a role model for what's acceptable, you need to get out in society more. And I don't mean that as a "get a life, loser!" statement. I mean your experiences with society should tell you what is and what isn't acceptable, not a videogame.

#211 Posted by LiquidPrince (15843 posts) -

Wait what? Naoto was never implied as being transgender... I'm fairly sure it was implied that she was merely a tomboy out of a feeling of necessity. She wanted do a job that was mostly deemed a male job by society. Also Kanji said many times that it wasn't that he was gay, it was that he was confused, and just didn't know how to handle to talk to people in general regardless of gender.

#212 Posted by The_Nubster (2047 posts) -

@LiquidPrince said:

Wait what? Naoto was never implied as being transgender... I'm fairly sure it was implied that she was merely a tomboy out of a feeling of necessity. She wanted do a job that was mostly deemed a male job by society. Also Kanji said many times that it wasn't that he was gay, it was that he was confused, and just didn't know how to handle to talk to people in general regardless of gender.

It was more than implied with Naoto. It's straight-out stated quite aggressively that Naoto is, in fact, a girl who is pretending to be a man so her peers don't look down on her. Kanji, as well, isn't depicted as being gay but rather, like you said, afraid of rejection and intimacy with both genders.

#213 Posted by LiquidPrince (15843 posts) -

@The_Nubster said:

@LiquidPrince said:

Wait what? Naoto was never implied as being transgender... I'm fairly sure it was implied that she was merely a tomboy out of a feeling of necessity. She wanted do a job that was mostly deemed a male job by society. Also Kanji said many times that it wasn't that he was gay, it was that he was confused, and just didn't know how to handle to talk to people in general regardless of gender.

It was more than implied with Naoto. It's straight-out stated quite aggressively that Naoto is, in fact, a girl who is pretending to be a man so her peers don't look down on her. Kanji, as well, isn't depicted as being gay but rather, like you said, afraid of rejection and intimacy with both genders.

The want to be a man doesn't make you transgender. If I want to be a woman tomorrow, that doesn't mean that suddenly I'm a transgendered individual. Transgender implies a certain physical change or difference. Naoto's shadow toyed with the idea that Naoto, who is wholly a female, should just admit that she wants to be a man, so that she won't be disrespected by her peers or be treated like a child.

#214 Posted by Animasta (14648 posts) -

@LiquidPrince said:

@The_Nubster said:

@LiquidPrince said:

Wait what? Naoto was never implied as being transgender... I'm fairly sure it was implied that she was merely a tomboy out of a feeling of necessity. She wanted do a job that was mostly deemed a male job by society. Also Kanji said many times that it wasn't that he was gay, it was that he was confused, and just didn't know how to handle to talk to people in general regardless of gender.

It was more than implied with Naoto. It's straight-out stated quite aggressively that Naoto is, in fact, a girl who is pretending to be a man so her peers don't look down on her. Kanji, as well, isn't depicted as being gay but rather, like you said, afraid of rejection and intimacy with both genders.

The want to be a man doesn't make you transgender. If I want to be a woman tomorrow, that doesn't mean that suddenly I'm a transgendered individual.

technically yes it does.

#215 Posted by Bocam (3672 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@LiquidPrince said:

@The_Nubster said:

@LiquidPrince said:

Wait what? Naoto was never implied as being transgender... I'm fairly sure it was implied that she was merely a tomboy out of a feeling of necessity. She wanted do a job that was mostly deemed a male job by society. Also Kanji said many times that it wasn't that he was gay, it was that he was confused, and just didn't know how to handle to talk to people in general regardless of gender.

It was more than implied with Naoto. It's straight-out stated quite aggressively that Naoto is, in fact, a girl who is pretending to be a man so her peers don't look down on her. Kanji, as well, isn't depicted as being gay but rather, like you said, afraid of rejection and intimacy with both genders.

The want to be a man doesn't make you transgender. If I want to be a woman tomorrow, that doesn't mean that suddenly I'm a transgendered individual.

technically yes it does.

How does that work?

#216 Posted by Animasta (14648 posts) -

@Bocam said:

@Animasta said:

@LiquidPrince said:

@The_Nubster said:

@LiquidPrince said:

Wait what? Naoto was never implied as being transgender... I'm fairly sure it was implied that she was merely a tomboy out of a feeling of necessity. She wanted do a job that was mostly deemed a male job by society. Also Kanji said many times that it wasn't that he was gay, it was that he was confused, and just didn't know how to handle to talk to people in general regardless of gender.

It was more than implied with Naoto. It's straight-out stated quite aggressively that Naoto is, in fact, a girl who is pretending to be a man so her peers don't look down on her. Kanji, as well, isn't depicted as being gay but rather, like you said, afraid of rejection and intimacy with both genders.

The want to be a man doesn't make you transgender. If I want to be a woman tomorrow, that doesn't mean that suddenly I'm a transgendered individual.

technically yes it does.

How does that work?

well it's all in the mind, right? deciding that you want to be the opposite gender isn't something normal people just do whenevs, after all, and the transgender umbrella does include stuff like crossdressing an what not, and there are plenty of people that can't transition because of money/family issues.

#217 Posted by LiquidPrince (15843 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@Bocam said:

@Animasta said:

@LiquidPrince said:

@The_Nubster said:

@LiquidPrince said:

Wait what? Naoto was never implied as being transgender... I'm fairly sure it was implied that she was merely a tomboy out of a feeling of necessity. She wanted do a job that was mostly deemed a male job by society. Also Kanji said many times that it wasn't that he was gay, it was that he was confused, and just didn't know how to handle to talk to people in general regardless of gender.

It was more than implied with Naoto. It's straight-out stated quite aggressively that Naoto is, in fact, a girl who is pretending to be a man so her peers don't look down on her. Kanji, as well, isn't depicted as being gay but rather, like you said, afraid of rejection and intimacy with both genders.

The want to be a man doesn't make you transgender. If I want to be a woman tomorrow, that doesn't mean that suddenly I'm a transgendered individual.

technically yes it does.

How does that work?

well it's all in the mind, right? deciding that you want to be the opposite gender isn't something normal people just do whenevs, after all, and the transgender umbrella does include stuff like crossdressing an what not, and there are plenty of people that can't transition because of money/family issues.

Yes, but even cross dressing implies a certain amount of physicality. If I grow my hair out, start putting on make up and so on, then I suppose you could consider that transgendered. That's not how I see it though. At least not in this situation with regards to Naoto. It's not like she went out of her way to be a man. She just fizzled out the girliness. I mean, if being a transgendered individual was so absolutely all encompassing and broad then every tomboy in the world, and even characters like Chie could fall under that category right? That's not how it works in my opinion.

#218 Posted by Animasta (14648 posts) -

@LiquidPrince: well i'm not arguing about naoto wanting to be a man (clearly she doesn't and most people have already said this) I'm just saying that deciding you want to be the opposite gender counts as being transgender.

#219 Posted by MasterRain (308 posts) -

@YI_Orange said:

@MasterRain: It wasn't only in there for the bad joke though. If I recall correctly, they never even explicitly state that Erica is transgender save for one of like six possible endings. And again, that's probably how most people would treat the situation. They didn't just meet Erica, they've known her since high school(not sure when she got the operation done) and still treat her as a member of the crew. They don't look down on her, but they don't give her special treatment either. Portraying it either of those ways would be WAY worse I think. To me, treating her like they would any other person is the best way to handle it since it's more like saying "you may be different, but you're not different"(if that makes sense). Also, and I can only speak for myself here, if a guy I knew from high school was transgender I would probably act the same was as the cast of Catherine. Sure, they may be a woman now, but to me they'd probably always feel like just "one of the guys". That just makes the whole Toby situation more understandable I think.

Also, if you think videogames are a role model for what's acceptable, you need to get out in society more. And I don't mean that as a "get a life, loser!" statement. I mean your experiences with society should tell you what is and what isn't acceptable, not a videogame.

We were talking about Persona 3, with the beach scene, I haven't actually played Catherine so I dunno about that.

#220 Posted by LiquidPrince (15843 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@LiquidPrince: well i'm not arguing about naoto wanting to be a man (clearly she doesn't and most people have already said this) I'm just saying that deciding you want to be the opposite gender counts as being transgender.

I think that thinking about it and considering it are different then acting on it. Just imagining yourself as the opposite gender, or considering getting a sex change doesn't automatically make you transgendered. It has to be the continual action. That's what I think anyway.

#221 Edited by Animasta (14648 posts) -

@LiquidPrince said:

@Animasta said:

@LiquidPrince: well i'm not arguing about naoto wanting to be a man (clearly she doesn't and most people have already said this) I'm just saying that deciding you want to be the opposite gender counts as being transgender.

I think that thinking about it and considering it are different then acting on it. Just imagining yourself as the opposite gender, or considering getting a sex change doesn't automatically make you transgendered. It has to be the continual action. That's what I think anyway.

here is what wikipedia says on the definition:

  • "Of, relating to, or designating a person whose identity does not conform unambiguously to conventional notions of male or female gender roles, but combines or moves between these."
  • "People who were assigned a sex, usually at birth and based on their genitals, but who feel that this is a false or incomplete description of themselves."
  • "Non-identification with, or non-presentation as, the sex (and assumed gender) one was assigned at birth."

which includes feeling; transgender is a bigger umbrella than you realize. Like I said, is a person who cannot transition or even outwardly express themselves as their preferred gender not transgender? There's a difference between a guy who is envious of the women's ability to have multiple orgasms and someone who wants to be a girl for an actual reason that does not involve sexier sex obviously.

Also I would say considering a sex change would, in fact, be a pretty clear sign of transgenderism but that's just me (if I wasn't I would certainly not want to get a sex change, shit creeps me out)(not that I'll ever have the money to do that, but still)

#222 Posted by YI_Orange (1128 posts) -

@MasterRain: My bad, not sure why I thought the conversation was about Catherine.

Anyway, I don't remember that scene in Persona 3. I went and looked it up, and assuming I found the right scene, I more got the impression that the lady in question is still a dude, in which case I think a minor negative reaction is warranted. I think that scene is getting way overblown though.

#223 Posted by The_Nubster (2047 posts) -

@LiquidPrince said:

@The_Nubster said:

@LiquidPrince said:

Wait what? Naoto was never implied as being transgender... I'm fairly sure it was implied that she was merely a tomboy out of a feeling of necessity. She wanted do a job that was mostly deemed a male job by society. Also Kanji said many times that it wasn't that he was gay, it was that he was confused, and just didn't know how to handle to talk to people in general regardless of gender.

It was more than implied with Naoto. It's straight-out stated quite aggressively that Naoto is, in fact, a girl who is pretending to be a man so her peers don't look down on her. Kanji, as well, isn't depicted as being gay but rather, like you said, afraid of rejection and intimacy with both genders.

The want to be a man doesn't make you transgender. If I want to be a woman tomorrow, that doesn't mean that suddenly I'm a transgendered individual. Transgender implies a certain physical change or difference. Naoto's shadow toyed with the idea that Naoto, who is wholly a female, should just admit that she wants to be a man, so that she won't be disrespected by her peers or be treated like a child.

Transgendered just means being identified with a gender that isn't your biological gender. So if you told everyone you wanted to be a lady (or a man, depending on the case), you would technically be transgendered. Naoto is, by definition, transgendered. As well, that idea was more than toyed with. Naoto passed herself off as a man for a large part of the game, and the reveal that she was actually a woman shocked all of the characters present for that event. She wasn't wholly female; she was actively trying (and succeeding) at getting society to view her as a strong, independent male so that she could fit in with others in her career path.

#224 Posted by MCFunkyStudent (5 posts) -

It seems as though the writer was slightly misguided on the actual struggles of the character in question. Naoto was not exactly a transgender, in fact her entire conflict in the main story was accepting her identity as a woman. I cannot see how the writer of this post found the material "oppressive", as he puts it. Throughout Naoto's storyline, as well as the rest of the game, the main characters offer nothing but encouragement to the struggling character. Even when it is revealed the truth of her gender becomes known to the entire school, there is not one scene in which she is insulted or ridiculed for her identity. If there was, it would completely go against the positive, accepting themes of the game.

This edit will also create new pages on Giant Bomb for:

Beware, you are proposing to add brand new pages to the wiki along with your edits. Make sure this is what you intended. This will likely increase the time it takes for your changes to go live.

Comment and Save

Until you earn 1000 points all your submissions need to be vetted by other Giant Bomb users. This process takes no more than a few hours and we'll send you an email once approved.