Civ5, great game, dumb AI

#1 Edited by warxsnake (2650 posts) -

Of all the things I cared the most for in past Civs that were due for an update, it would be character interaction with Civ Leaders. And the way they act in this version of the game is almost a game breaker for me. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the game, I play it both at home and at work at lunchtime (along with dozens of other peeps on my project :P, and steamcloud is just perfect). The problem is, one of the main reasons I play this game is to see how other civs react to your actions, undergo in-depth diplomacy, trash talking even... I don't know, I feel like the civ leader interaction is no more in-depth than Civ 4, and I'm slightly disappointed with the lack of options and variety when it comes to talking with your fellow civs. 
One example of dumb leader reactions was last night, I was trying to get cooperative with Catherine of Russia, and it just so happens that she gets invaded by the Ottomans. She loses her capital, Moscow. Throughout these events (I'm playing as England), I engage in "discussions" just trying to see if she would ask for help... nothing, she says something totally unrelated to her getting owned by the ottomans, and I'm like ok, whatever. I then decide to go to war with Suleiman, and I start fighting for Moscow. I succeed in getting it back, I swiftly open up a dialog with Catherine, and I offer her capital back to her, free. What she says literally made me go "WTF" out loud: " I hope you are doing poorly in your little war". What? I just fought a bloody fight for your dumb capital you cunt. I then lost all cause and just pummeled every civ in my way and won the game, starting with hers.  
I don't know, what do you guys think? I just find it unfair when some puny civ with 2 cities opens up a dialog with me and my 20 cities and calls me their favorite city state. Like Ryan or Vinny said on the podcast.. I can either say "Very Well", or.....what? Why can't I initiate the trash talking? Why can't I threaten civs to cooperate or suffer consequences? Why can't I tell Napoleon that I dont like HIS troops massing on MY borders? Why can't I just tell a city state to join my empire because it would be to their benefit and would enjoy the protection and resources I provide.. instead of initiating a battle just to get their city, and to get enemies out of all his allies. I don't know, maybe I'm asking for too much? Just give me something.. mass effect style dialog trees maybe. I don't know, everything still feels robotic to me. 
By no means do I think the game is trash though, I've already sank waay too much time into it and I like it.... just make an extra effort with the AI interactions next time please. 
Also as a side note, did you guys try the TSL (True Starting Locations) Mod. I love this mod and won't play without it, it basically takes any Earth map size, and plots civs and states in their correct locations so you can have a true alternate history- type game, I still don't get why this is a mod and not a feature in the game though, I mean, you're already making all these world maps, at least have an option in advanced settings to start where I'm supposed to. It's really fun though and makes it play kinda like a Total War, here's what it looks like:  

#2 Posted by strangemodule (42 posts) -

I have to say I agree. Interactions with other Civs seem to be limited to attack, trade, or form pacts with people. 
Also, I will have to try that mod, although it seems like it would make certain civs have a major advantage over another.

#3 Posted by warxsnake (2650 posts) -
@strangemodule said:
" I have to say I agree. Interactions with other Civs seem to be limited to attack, trade, or form pacts with people.   Also, I will have to try that mod, although it seems like it would make certain civs have a major advantage over another. "
Yeah, definitely. Haven't tried Japan with this mod yet, but judging from what I saw, it's going to be HARD and you have to cross to China early game. There's even a mountain in the middle of the island not letting  you access the already tiny space above your starting location on the island. 
#4 Edited by Meteora (5789 posts) -

The AI has been lackluster, in fact, for the most part its a step back from Civilization IV. At least in that game, diplomacy made a bit more sense and each civilization had its own personality and perks (like how Gandhi/Mansa Musa were tech whores and peacelovers whilst Montezuma likes to pump out units than teching, or how Catherine was a backstabbing bitch). 
I tried playing the TSL but it doesn't click with me. Europe is cramped as hell and everywhere else is empty. 
By the way, nice English empire. What happened to Paris? Did you burn it down to the ground? O_o 
Also yeah Japan has it really hard with that stupid mountain and its small isle...

#5 Posted by Addfwyn (1953 posts) -

I haven't tried TSL yet, but can you still get other achievements while playing the mod?  I didn't know how mods affect achievement mongering, and I've been working on getting as many as I can in the meantime.

#6 Posted by Binman88 (3693 posts) -

I completely agree. It was the first question in my head as soon as I saw the AI threatening me - can I do the same to them? Unfortunately not, and the lack of other options coupled with some AI stupidity, like in your scenario with Catherine, do detract from the enjoyment a little.  
I played a game yesterday with three other Civs - Wu Zetian, Napolean and Montezuma. I was friendly with Wu Zetian from start to finish, and I felt like the game was behaving how I'd hoped - up until around 1900AD. Napolean, after an early failed attempt to invade my city, decided to declare war on the Chinese (he had wiped out Montezuma at this point). I was playing towards a cultural or research victory (whichever came first), and would have rathered not win by domination, so I stayed out of the fighting for a while (its not like she asked for help despite initiating discussions with her) and eventually decided to gift her a city so she wouldn't be completely destroyed. When I realised Napolean had no intention of letting up, I declared war on him and sent a couple of destroyers to the coast of Paris. Soon after, before I was even close to capturing his city, Wu Zetian and Napolean sign a peace treaty, and I'm forced to destroy Paris and take the domination victory again, because I can't even negotiate a peace treaty with him because he's apparently so annoyed. Knowing that's how the game will play out in the future, I'll know how to act, but it's unfortunate that, apart from a defensive pact with the Chinese, I couldn't have done anything really to warn him off invading without just declaring war on him.  

#7 Posted by MrKlorox (11209 posts) -

My first playthrough I set up another civ to be on my team. There's even less to say to them. They share your research and possibly even wonder benefits, but you get nothing of theirs. You can't pool money or resources, and if it's in their personality to be dicks they won't trade with you for less than outlandish fees. The only thing that prevents them from going to war and wiping you out is that they cannot. That's not an alliance.

#8 Posted by mrfizzy (1558 posts) -
@warxsnake: agree with you 100%. also im waiting for a patch that will give me the "hand over what i want or i will destroy everything and everyone you love" option. the romans used to do this, they would give a city one chance to surrender, if they did, everyone there became roman citizens and the city became a roman city, if they didnt the roman army would enslave or kill everyone and then burn the city to the ground. The fact that in civ v you can we talking to some tiny neighbor or city state who you could crush like a bug and theyll talk shit and try and rip you off in a deal is just wierd. 
#9 Posted by Hooded (438 posts) -

I wish there was more options to interact with the other CIvs and Citiy states. I remember I asked the Aztek dude for peace and he refused, the very next turn afterwards he wanted peace... He didn't attack me, I didn't attack him, I dont even think he saw my army. 
I've never tried the real life maps, From them pics it doesn't look quite exact though, I'd like it to be quite balanced but quite realistic also. 
Are the Mod tools powerful enough to do this? Or is this the best we gunna get?

#10 Posted by Zzzleepy (162 posts) -

TSL is awesome, but playing Japan isn't... you're landlocked on like 4-5 hexes fooorever before you can do anything, you get a really slow start.

#11 Posted by NekuSakuraba (7198 posts) -

This post has now made me like the game less for some reason...

#12 Posted by SLUSHiNaToR (155 posts) -

I never really noticed any dialog issues besides the lack of options. But now that I think of it.. I did have some wtf moments.. I should take a closer look into the dialog options considering I rarely have used them. 

#13 Posted by mason (265 posts) -

Seriously guys, if you're having fun with Civ V (I am), don't seek to deepen your knowledge by visiting dedicated forums (like Civfanatics). There's a vocal third of the fanbase that seem to hate, Hate, HATE this game. It might suck out the fun you're having. 
A lot of it is knitpicking (was pollution really that great a feature?). I prefer most of the changes in the game. I love embarkment, love the interface, love 1UPS, love the way cities expand, etc. So much so, that I never want to go back to Civ 4. But I have to agree with the common sentiment about the AI.

Firaxis needs to tweak the AI with future patches. The AI lacks the subtlety the game demands. I'm not just talking about the leaders behavior. Even on harder difficulties the AI consistently makes exploitable mistakes in warfare. They don't know how to use boats properly for one thing.
And as noted above, the leaders seem predisposed to hate you, even if you're not a warmonger. It makes the diplomatic game a little shallow. 
I too liberated a puppet state of a civilization I never met. I effectively brought their culture back from the dead. But the moment they met me they were completely spiteful and insulting to my face. I'd understand if they stabbed me in the back later, but from the get-go? The previous game I could always manage to have a few allies. In this game, they all hate me unless I constantly shower them with presents and stay far, far away from their lands.

#14 Posted by elko84 (1136 posts) -

Yes the AI is quite weird in this game.  I was playing the other day and the Ottomans we're pissing me off, they attacked one of my city-states I was allied with.  So I went to war and starting taking his land and cities.  Once I had him down to one city, I said ok maybe he'll accept peace.  So I go to offer him peace for peace.  He goes no and says he will accept peace from me and in return give me peace and 70 gold.  What?  You're going to pay me to give you peace when I just offered it to you for free?  That doesn't make sense!

#15 Posted by StartAndPause (113 posts) -

I love this game but it just annoys me how hostile the AI is even in situations where they have no chance they blindly declare war and end up being wiped out. City states are a good idea in theory but in practice it doesnt really work.

#16 Posted by Spooty (86 posts) -

Actually, I hope they don't fix the AI. If the AI starts acting like it should, then I'll be even more addicted than I already am.

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