So wait, you can't fight back against the enemies?

#1 Edited by Hot_Karl (3309 posts) -

 I've known about this for a while, but I figured I'd make a topic on it, since the game is hitting shelves tomorrow.
 
I don't know whether or not this is me being raised on action games, but I still do not understand why you cannot attack enemies. AT ALL.

If you want people to encourage people to run instead of fight, maybe you should just keep weapons in the game scarce- things that you need only in dire circumstances. I know that Silent Hill isn't known for its amazing combat or anything, but I still feel that it's a missed opportunity for our protagonist to have no defenses against these creatures whatsoever.
 
That's just me. I understand that whatever the developer was going for, they wanted the focus to be on the scares and tension and not the action. Totally cool. And I know I'm gonna get crap for this as well (I'm sure a lot of comments will be GO BACK TO PLAYIN MODERN WARFARE YOU LOSER or something to that effect), but I just wanted to say that this irks me a bit.  However, I still think the game looks phenomenal, and I want to try it on a friend's Wii sometime soon.

#2 Posted by AjayRaz (12427 posts) -

disappointing, i have to say. i knew silent hill didn't have the greatest combat, but still.. :(  

#3 Posted by Dan_CiTi (3310 posts) -

No, this isn't Devil May Cry.

#4 Posted by Meowayne (6084 posts) -

Sure you could fight back against a dozen of crazed, deformed creatures going berserk on you.
 
The question is: Would you?
 
Without saying anything about the actual gameplay which I cannot yet comment upon, I think it is a brave, great and awesome decision that they developed a game that has a helpless, male protagonist. That's just awesome.

#5 Edited by Khann (2850 posts) -

Ever played Penumbra? Not being able to fight back adds an immense amount of suspense/tension.
 
Though you could fight back in the original Resident Evil(s), it was so slow, clunky and gimped that there was still a massive amount of tension there. Being chased completely defenseless by Nemesis was also one of my favorite gaming moments.
 
More games need to put you in a completely defenseless position. Survival-horror games, anyway.

#6 Posted by Emilio (3380 posts) -
@Khann:  
Yo, I just beat the first episode, and now I'm on the second... and things are effing scary as hell. When all the lights go out and that dude comes in with his ugly face... AGHHH. 
 
At least in the first episode I could beat the shit out of dogs with my axe. :( 
 
I also want another Condemned now.
#7 Posted by emkeighcameron (1876 posts) -
@VinceNotVance said:
"  I've known about this for a while, but I figured I'd make a topic on it, since the game is hitting shelves tomorrow.
 
I don't know whether or not this is me being raised on action games, but I still do not understand why you cannot attack enemies. AT ALL.

If you want people to encourage people to run instead of fight, maybe you should just keep weapons in the game scarce- things that you need only in dire circumstances. I know that Silent Hill isn't known for its amazing combat or anything, but I still feel that it's a missed opportunity for our protagonist to have no defenses against these creatures whatsoever.  That's just me. I understand that whatever the developer was going for, they wanted the focus to be on the scares and tension and not the action. Totally cool. And I know I'm gonna get crap for this as well (I'm sure a lot of comments will be GO BACK TO PLAYIN MODERN WARFARE YOU LOSER or something to that effect), but I just wanted to say that this irks me a bit.  However, I still think the game looks phenomenal, and I want to try it on a friend's Wii sometime soon. "
I fully agree. I don't want some kind of bullshit commando assassin bear-rapist protagonist who destroys everything, but rudimentary stuff (like, you know, pulling the trigger on a pistol or swinging a stupid club) should be allowed. Maybe the game will be good enough to where I don't care, but I'm definitely going to wait and see on this one.
#8 Posted by MVP1101 (209 posts) -

I get why it might  irk someone but i think it is great that they did this. It bugs me when you can do too much in Survival-horror games. 

#9 Posted by CL60 (16906 posts) -

I think it's good like this.

#10 Posted by Bones8677 (3241 posts) -

This is why the game doesn't interest me. Why would I want to play as a character whose more of a pussy than I am? I'm no fighter, but at least I would attempt to fight those things. 

I mean, the Silent Hill series has always discouraged against fighting, but to actually go and forbid you too...well that's kinda messed up. 

Spend ten hours running from enemies...nah, no thanks.

#11 Posted by oldschool (7264 posts) -
@CL60 said:
" I think it's good like this. "
Stops it from being just another survival horror game I suppose.  I also applaud the change of pace.  This could be my first Silent Hill as until now, I have never been interested.
#12 Posted by Griddler (3344 posts) -

It might be cool to have the option to fight

#13 Posted by Meowayne (6084 posts) -

Yeah, a videogame that discourages you to solve situations with brute force. What is the world coming to? :'(

#14 Edited by Jeust (10645 posts) -

The game follows the clocktower's mechanics.  
 
If really it is a good or bad idea, i'll reserve my thoughts till after i play the game. 
 
But i don't like to feel helpless.

#15 Edited by aaabbbccc (1 posts) -

There's a drill they have you do with pistol training where you have 3 seconds to shoot 2 shots at a target 7 yards away from the holster position and over half of the people that do this drill the first time miss both shots, usually wildly like up into the ceiling or down into the floor. Harry is a normal every day guy and like most everyday guys if you put a gun in their hand in a panic situation the normal everyday guy has about a 10% chance to hit his target, 10% chance to hit himself, and 80% chance to shoot that poor bird up in the tree that was just watching the action unfold.  
 
From what I understand there's a lot of things that chase you, and they move a little bit faster than you.  There just isn't any situation where you could stand and fight. I do like the idea of this overwhelming and oppressive force chasing you through a maze a lot more than random critters all over a map that are mostly a pain in the ass that you don't really fight anyway and can figure out ways to go around them. 
 
This game forces you to run, making you a helpless person in a hopeless situation.  I've never played a Silent Hill game but this was the element that really grabbed my attention.

#16 Posted by AgentJ (8778 posts) -

I think it's an interesting gameplay mechanic that sets it apart from other games in the genre. 

#17 Posted by AndrewB (7613 posts) -

I'm not sure exactly what the gameplay of this game will entail, but I feel like my biggest draw to the game is the uniqueness in the idea that you aren't really supposed to fight the enemies. They're supposed to be there to scare the shit out of you. Giving you a weapon takes away a lot of that scariness. Giving me weapons, but neutering them through awkward controls and ammo scarcity is pretty much what keeps me away from Silent Hill games. Crippling gameplay is a manufactured way of making things scary (and I'll also point my finger at Resident Evil, on that note).

#18 Posted by bonbolapti (1612 posts) -

They probably did this because people usually don't like playing the same type of game over and over again (from what I hear). 
 
It's actuallly a pretty nice change of pace from what I've played so far.

#19 Posted by Linkyshinks (9880 posts) -

An intentional design choice which benefits the game. 

#20 Posted by Romination (2777 posts) -

I like the fact that you can't attack, but it would be nice to have some kind of deterrent. If you found out, say, laundry detergent stunned them for a bit, for example. Something weird like that just to make escape easier, but you never have enough to make it too easy

#21 Posted by yeahno (269 posts) -

I think if this game is supposed to scare the shit of you then to feel helpless by not being able to fight is a GREAT way to scare someone shitless. It's supposed to be unnerving and upsetting. I think this is an awesome idea. But I can definitely see how it can get less scary as time goes by. Oh look, its time to run again. Oh look, it's time to run again. Oh look, I'm running. I can definitely see a struggle with keeping the player feeling helpless.

#22 Posted by Khann (2850 posts) -
@yeahno said:
" I think if this game is supposed to scare the shit of you then to feel helpless by not being able to fight is a GREAT way to scare someone shitless. It's supposed to be unnerving and upsetting. I think this is an awesome idea. But I can definitely see how it can get less scary as time goes by. Oh look, its time to run again. Oh look, it's time to run again. Oh look, I'm running. I can definitely see a struggle with keeping the player feeling helpless. "
I don't think it's just the fact that you might run a lot. 
 
For example, in Halo/CoD/Killzone/whatever, when you enter a room you know you have a small arsenal at your disposal. However, when you know you can't do shit about whatever enemy you might encounter, it makes you think twice about entering the room; makes you observe your surroundings before you enter so you know where to run if you need to. 
 
If a game has great sound, that can add a lot as well. If you're in a room looking around/solving a puzzle and you hear some thumping/scraping/screaming in the hallway, it's gonna freak you out a bit. Because if it is a monster, once again, you have no way of defending yourself. So you may run and hide behind a desk/in a cupboard/wherever as that's the only way you can survive that situation. 
 
All of this is game dependant of course, but there are many more ways to make a game fun/interesting than shooting things.
#23 Posted by DrRandle (1202 posts) -

Which dream would be scarier? A dream where you had a chainsaw and a shotgun or even a baseball bat to help you fight off the undead? Or you had nothing but your legs to carry your ass out of there?
 
This isn't exactly a new idea, but it looks like Shattered Memories is looking to be one of the best at doing it.
 
And there are deterrent's, at least from what I've seen. I've watched clips where Mason fends a monster back with a road flare. It probably isn't great but it would buy you a moment or two. I would dig this kind of game with a Mirror's Edge playstyle... Not having to fight guys by running right into them as they unload AK's into your face.

#24 Posted by Al3xand3r (7574 posts) -

The game may not be the best it could be (don't know, haven't played) but having no fighting isn't the reason. Everything is up to the implementation.

#25 Edited by OllyOxenFree (4973 posts) -

You cannot please everybody.  If developers do the same mechanics in every game, gamers will yell out "Nothing's unique! Why can't they be original?!"
 
When developers try something different gamers will yell out "Why do they change?  This will ruin the series!".

#26 Posted by Meowayne (6084 posts) -
@OllyOxenFree said:
" When developers try something different gamers will yell out "Why do they change?  This will ruin the series!". "
A good majority of Silent Hill fans are in awe over this game.
 
No combat is definatly not an issue. The fact that there are no enemies or any kind of threats at all during the normal sequences, however, that is something you can argue about.
#27 Posted by Hailinel (24785 posts) -

This game is essentially the antithesis of Silent Hill:  Homecoming, which emphasized combat to the point that it ruined the game for a lot of people.  Harry isn't a trained soldier.  He's a normal dude being scared shitless by fleshy abominations.  If I were him, I'd rather run for my life than face off against them, too.
 
For what it's worth, the game does provide a few rudimentary ways to "defend" yourself, like flares you can use to ward off approaching monsters, but I love the fact that combat has been deemphasized to a point I haven't seen since Clock Tower 3 (and even then, Clock Tower 3 had combat at the end of every chapter).

Online
#28 Posted by Meowayne (6084 posts) -

I am a little confused about reviews and players noting that they got completely lost in the nightmare sequences because they could never find cover to have enough time to look at the map. 
 More than one reviewer took that as one reason to downscore the game. 
 
This confuses me, because it seems like these people never tried making the map full-screen. If you just look at the real-time map on your phone, the game continues and the creatures will kill you, yes. 
However, if you press A to get the zoomed-in, full screen version of the map, the game pauses and you have all the time in the world to plan your course. You still lose a second or two for switching the phone on and off, but for me this is never really an issue, and I can check whether I am on the right course or not at every second turn, if I wanted to. 
 
I have now three or four of the nightmare sequences behind me, and not only do I not find them frustrating, I like them very much. The camera, the ability to look behind, the relentless creature AI, the music and the moves you can pull off make for some very, very well staged and scary interactive chase sequences.
Stressful, yes, but in a good way. But then again, I also liked Mirror's Edge.
 
Loving the game so far. Definatly a worthy successor to Silent Hill 2, although it is a really different experience and only very little scary.

#29 Posted by jmrwacko (2443 posts) -
@Khann said:
" Ever played Penumbra? Not being able to fight back adds an immense amount of suspense/tension.  Though you could fight back in the original Resident Evil(s), it was so slow, clunky and gimped that there was still a massive amount of tension there. Being chased completely defenseless by Nemesis was also one of my favorite gaming moments.  More games need to put you in a completely defenseless position. Survival-horror games, anyway. "
This has been done plenty of times in the Half Life series with all the alien bosses and the helicopter chases. Truthfully, encounters in which you have to run away are probably some of the more visceral moments I've had in gaming. Mirror's Edge is almost entirely based off this concept (not surprisingly, it received some bad reviews because it did have clumsy, tacked on combat when it shouldn't have had).
#30 Posted by jmrwacko (2443 posts) -
@Bones8677 said:
" This is why the game doesn't interest me. Why would I want to play as a character whose more of a pussy than I am? I'm no fighter, but at least I would attempt to fight those things.  I mean, the Silent Hill series has always discouraged against fighting, but to actually go and forbid you too...well that's kinda messed up.  Spend ten hours running from enemies...nah, no thanks. "
Well you can toss them off of you and do various sort of counter moves, but the main objective is to escape. Also, I highly, highly doubt you'd try and fight the monsters in Silent Hill, if it were you being chased.
#31 Posted by Red (5995 posts) -

Running away from zombies is a billion times scarier than shooting them with crappy controls.

#32 Posted by Driadon (2998 posts) -
@Red: Sadly, you run away from them with crappy controls. These parts are very hit or miss: sometimes you can figure out where you're supposed to go and as you charge forward you get a huge rush of anxiety and adrenaline but others where you might not be able to figure out where to go can be frustrating and the motions needed to push the creatures off once they dig their claws into you can be really picky at registering.
 
But, in the end, it is much better then getting a high powered rifle and blowing them away.
#33 Posted by Meowayne (6084 posts) -

 @Red: Sadly, you run away from them with crappy controls. 


 Could you explain that, Driadon? I though the nightmare sequences controlled very well, the gesture input was intuitive and reliable, and Harry always went where you wanted him to go, how you wanted him to go. Where are there any kinds of crappy controls? It's the same controls as the rest of the game, and they are excellent. 
Did you know that you can do a 180° turnaround with the Z-Button?
 

Sometimes you can figure out where you're supposed to go 


How is that? You always have a waypoint on the map, and the fact that there is no straight way and that you sometimes have to run a circle to try a different path is intentional, and very effective. On top of that, the game records your path so you always know where you took a wrong turn. Did you know that in zoomed-in mode you have all the time in the world to look at the map?
 

 others where you might not be able to figure out where to go


Do you have an example? Even though I did not always take the right turn, I always knew where the game wanted me to go. Did you mark blocked/wrong paths on your map with the marker?
 

 the motions needed to push the creatures off once they dig their claws into you can be really picky at registering.


I... no?
#34 Posted by Driadon (2998 posts) -
@Meowayne: Ruroh, made an ass of myself. Let me try that again.
 
In my experience the motion controls where unresponsive. I'd do the elbowing motion 5 times to get a damn monster off my back and it just would not want to listen. I've heard others that had a similar experience and other not, so it might be more based on where your sensor bar is and whatnot.
 
My navigation issues was really only in one spot, but it just left a sour taste in my mouth. The spot in particular is the nightmare sequence in the school. Up to that point the game was so well designed I didn't even need to check my map, then when I couldn't figure out where to go and what to do for those 30 minutes it had felt as if I had hit a brick wall. 
  
Oh well, in the end the game was still friggen fantastic.
#35 Posted by Hailinel (24785 posts) -
@Driadon said:
" @Meowayne: Ruroh, made an ass of myself. Let me try that again.   In my experience the motion controls where unresponsive. I'd do the elbowing motion 5 times to get a damn monster off my back and it just would not want to listen. I've heard others that had a similar experience and other not, so it might be more based on where your sensor bar is and whatnot.  My navigation issues was really only in one spot, but it just left a sour taste in my mouth. The spot in particular is the nightmare sequence in the school. Up to that point the game was so well designed I didn't even need to check my map, then when I couldn't figure out where to go and what to do for those 30 minutes it had felt as if I had hit a brick wall.     Oh well, in the end the game was still friggen fantastic. "
The sensor bar does not have any effect on motion controls.  It's only purpose is to detect the position of the pointer.
Online
#36 Posted by Driadon (2998 posts) -
@Hailinel: It'd be purely the accelerometer then? Maybe I just need some new remotes.
#37 Posted by Meowayne (6084 posts) -
@Driadon said:
   Oh well, in the end the game was still friggen fantastic. "
That's all that matters then. :D
 
As for the "shaking off creatures" controls, don't shake, don't exaggerate your motion, and make sure you clearly tilt both mote and nunchuck. So for example, when a creature is on your back, draw both your hands towards you so that the wiimote ends up pointing upwards. 
It's not just accelerometer like in many games, it's accelerometer + tilt depending on the direction you're attacked from. 
 
(Why didn't they support MotionPlus optionally? That is exactly what motionplus does: Deliver 100% accurate and reliable tilt information regardless of acceleration)
#38 Posted by ryanwho (12082 posts) -

Im sorry do you fools know how a SURVIVAL HORROR game works? Its not about you getting a sweet gun and killing the monsters.

#39 Posted by Alexander (1721 posts) -

I think being defenceless is part of what makes this game terrifying to play. 
 
It's like that first encounter in Dead Space, where all you can (really) do is run for the elevator. I was bricking it. When you've got the guns it's an easier time.

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