Man... so many missteps... My experiences with SkullGirls

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#1 Posted by nohthink (1223 posts) -

I have been looking forward to play this game. I finally bought it today, finished a single player with one character, had about 4 multiplayer fights. I'm no game reviewer nor fighting game guru but man... so many things about this game made me think "It could have been better."

Misstep 1) Ridiculous Difficulty

I'm not the best fighting game player in the world or anything like that. But I'm okay at it. I get about 50/50 win/lose ratio when I play online and when I lose, I understand why I lost that fight. I love Street Fighter IV and I thoroughly enjoy SF X TK. With that said, I have to say,,, SkullGirls is not an easy game.

Ridiculous difficulty can be translated into many things and could be caused by multiple things so I honestly don't know where to start. But let's talk about the AI first.

Me being a normal person, I started the single player first and picked Parasoul. She seems like an interesting character so why not. I picked "Normal" difficulty. First opponent was Ms. Fortune. I got owned within first 30 seconds. I thought "Okay, I'm not used to with the controls yet. Maybe I'll do better next time." 18 combo hit, knocked out immediately. Okay.... I tried again. Same result. Maybe "normal" is not what I want. After all, I did just pick up this game. So I got out of the game and picked the easiest difficulty; "Sleepwalk." Same character, Parasoul. 20 hit combo and knocked out.

The AI does not joke around. If she has a chance, she will start comboing nonstop and it is really hard to get out of them mostly because a) you're not familiar with the combo(some of them are 5, 8 or 18 or even 32 combos if you do the ultra moves) and b) the nature of the game pretty much allows infinite combo with some leeways to escape. Well... it's not really an "infinite combo" if you can escape I guess but if you have no idea how or when to get out, you're pretty getting hit by all the 32 hits. It is even harder because....

Misstep 2) No In-Game Move List

I knew this because I saw IGN's review but I thought "how bad can it be." Dude.... It gets pretty bad. Characters have surprisingly robust move list. It is somewhat like Capcom fighting games(you got your quarter circle forward/backward, charge moves etc) but if you don't have any move lists next to you, those robust moves don't mean a thing. Moreover, each character has different move sets so it's not like you can get used to with one character and utilize them for others, which is not a bad thing. I like that each character controls differently. But if that's the case, why didn't they provide move lists??

The training session straight up tell you go to a website(their homepage) to see the move lists. Really? Argh....

So, I got my laptop out, went to wiki.shoryuken.com and looked up the move list. I put it right next to me and tried to use the moves while I was playing the single player mode except....

Misstep 3) Cannot Pause

Once you're in the game, you cannot pause. It just goes. I might not have been able to pause because I was in a middle of a combo and getting my butt kicked but as far as I can tell, you cannot pause. So there is really no way to test your move while you're in the story mode. You could go to training mode to do it so this is not a huge problem but I thought this was a mistake. But eventually, I beat the final boss(in Sleepwalk mode) with Cerebella(Pro Tip: Pick Cerebella. I would argue she's the Ken of SkullGirls). The final boss had three different stages and was very hard to defeat. But I managed in Sleepwalk mode and beat her. Boring story, boring ending, I could not careless.

Misstep 4) Locked Characters

Two locked characters. I beat the game in Sleepwalk mode and I did not unlock any of them. If the game requires me to play through anything above "Normal" difficulty, I doubt I will ever see them in the single player mode. You can pick them in online mode though so... take that as you will.

But One Hell of An Amazing Multiplayer

I almost want to say just ignore the single player and go straight to online. It is super fun. It works great. The game has GGPO stamps all over the game and, as they promised, it provides a great online experiences. It automatically matches you with people who are the same tier as you and so far, I have not had a bad match.

What is really amazing is that the game allows you to pick one character, two characters or three characters and whatever you pick, you do not feel like you are underpowered. I have always picked one character because I knew how to use only one character(Cerebella), and I do not really enjoy switching characters(I'm not big fan of tag fighting games). But I beat a guy who picked 3 characters. It was an amazing experiences and I felt good about it.

At the end, it is a good fighting game because really, as long as it provides an amazing fighting experience online, that should justify its existence... Right?

Sigh... who knows.... If you have SkullGirls and just wanna have some fun, add me on PSN(nohthink). PEACE!!!

#2 Edited by Dawglet (312 posts) -

You have to hold the pause button, it's to prevent accidental pauses in local versus matches. I only played the demo but I think you can change it in options.

But what's this about locked characters? What characters are locked?

#3 Posted by nohthink (1223 posts) -

@Dawglet: I believe Double and Valentine are locked. Did not know about the pause button. Thanks!

#4 Edited by Zidios (1 posts) -

So a couple things

1: For the difficulty of the game, I'm hearing so many different things. I've heard more people say it's pretty easy then difficult however. The one thing people are saying is Miss Fortune is unusually difficult to fight, even tougher then the final boss. If your really struggling, you should do the tutorial, it's probably the best one in a fighting game yet and doesn't just teach how to do moves but things like defense, cross ups, punishment etc.

2: Yeah it's bad, apparently they had to cut it for time and will patch it in at the first chance, so that's why there isn't one, but it's still pretty bad.

3: I believe outside of training mode, you have to hold down the pause button to pause, the reason being that in tournaments people "accidentally" hitting pause causes issue's so this is a fix for that.

4: The characters are only locked for story mode, I mean there's really nothing wrong for that,. They're available in online and local right away.

Hope this helped you out.

#5 Posted by nohthink (1223 posts) -

@Zidios: I think I finished all the first chapter tutorial(the first column). The problem I had with the tutorial, though, was that it did a pretty bad job at describing the move. Something like "Down, Down Back, Back" could have been easily translated into a picture or a quarter circle backward. But yeah, I will definitely revisit the tutorial.

Also, do you know how to unlock those characters?

#6 Posted by MooseyMcMan (11025 posts) -

@Dawglet said:

You have to hold the pause button, it's to prevent accidental pauses in local versus matches. I only played the demo but I think you can change it in options.

But what's this about locked characters? What characters are locked?

But half the fun of playing games locally is "accidentally" hitting the pause button.

Moderator
#7 Posted by OneManX (1693 posts) -

1. The AI is not afraid to body you. Esp. the more powerful characters, Cerebella can just chew through my life with her grabs. I have no qualms in taking the difficulty down.

2. It sucks... they shouldn't of cut it. it's been delayed enough, what's one more to get everything right, the first time.. instead of patching (starring DAGGERS into you SFxT) I want to main Valentine and apparently she has projectiles that have different status effects. Th game doesn't tell you, what is what, so you need a guide to figure out the different properties of her moves.

#8 Posted by killacam (1284 posts) -

man, i am totally with you on how hard this game is. i trudged onwards through a sleepwalk story mode, and did some arcade fights, and am progressively getting better at stringing together combos (though am still relatively terrible).

i played one online match and the guy was an absolute animal. i couldn't believe he could become so comfortable with a game like this within the first few hours of its release.. so i assumed everyone was better than me and left it there to train more, on the moon, under 100x gravity.

but i really like the game so far. it's like no other fighting game i've played and i'm motivated to strive to get ma combo on. glad to hear i'm not the only one struggling, i'll see you out there!

#9 Posted by nohthink (1223 posts) -

@OneManX: I wanted to main Valentine too!!! Except you need to unlock her... Can you play as her in training mode without unlocking her?

#10 Posted by Cogzwell (238 posts) -

Valentine and Double just aren't available in story mode, the pause mode has to be held down for a second in order to avoid accidental pauses.

#11 Posted by nohthink (1223 posts) -

@Cogzwell: So It's not like you can unlock them??

#12 Posted by egg (1467 posts) -

@nohthink said:

The training session straight up tell you go to a website(their homepage) to see the move lists. Really? Argh....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAH

Skullgirls is automatically one of the worst games this gen

#13 Posted by Cogzwell (238 posts) -

@nohthink: They are unlocked, there's just no story for them, no story was written for them because they were designed as boss characters. Maybe stories for them might get added later, but the story isn't really the main part of this story.

Yeah, it sort of sucks that Skullgirls doesn't have an in game move list, but the fact that other companies have done so much crap with fighting games like on disc dlc, poor online support, and bad tutorials and this game tries to fix that (and manages to succeed for the most part) but because it doesn't have something in the game which instantly gets you banned in tournaments if you look at it and only use it for the first 5 minutes of playing a character which is easily accessible online, and might be better to have it open on a nearby computer so you don't have to keep stopping the game as frequently , somehow automatically discredit its as a feasible fighting game? If you wanna try and hate this game then be my guest.

#14 Edited by Mesoian (1574 posts) -

1.) The AI isn't THAAAAAT bad. It's certainly not messing around and normal assumes you really don't need the tutorial mode that comes with the game and are expecting a very Marvel 2 experience. Feel free to turn it down until you get your bearings. The only real difficulty I've come across thus far is Double (and only Double). Her AI seems super aggressive and super cheap, using the gunshot --> Wacky Races almost everytime she has the ability. Super dangerous all the time. Single Doubles (heh) can be rather frustrating.

The thing you need to remember is that custom assists are the way to go. Because I've been playing the demo, I've been rocking a fillia X Cerebella combo where I land a jumping mp -> Cerebella's 236+lp+lk command throw as an assist --> H sonic spindash --> Cockroach rush --> H sonic spindash --> HP --> jump --> H sonic spindash, and that does about 70% damage before the infinite buster forces the combo apart. Also there are no infinites in this game period. Even if they get a happy birthday on you, they won't be able to keep the damage going long enough to kill you.

2.) http://wiki.shoryuken.com/Skullgirls#Basics

While it sucks, lets face it, even if it was in there, the amount of information it could give you is paultry at best and within 20 minutes, you'd be resorting to internet guides anyway.

3.) as other have said, hold pause. Keeps from accidental misshaps on the tournament level.

4.) Characters are only locked for storymode. For 2p, online and arcade, they're all there.

This game is super fun thus far. I can't wait for tomorrow for the XBLA version to come out so I can use my fightpads and actually be able to chain things properly. It's all about figuring out how you want to fight, rather than being forced to adhere to a set number of combos like Marvel 3 or SFxT makes you do. It's a lot more freeform, very 90's. It's a pretty nice breath of fresh air.

#15 Posted by killacam (1284 posts) -

again, people. the moves list will be patched in in the next couple weeks.

#16 Posted by Brodehouse (9950 posts) -

Hrm, maybe I'll forgo this one.  I prefer games that are just about out-thinking the opponent and finding the right in... not about finding the right in and then juggling them up there for forty hits.  I want to learn the metagame, the high-mid-low mind games, the whole rock-paper-scissors part of it... I don't want to have to learn to mash out twelve input dial-a-combos like a robot.
 
Oh well, it is by some dudes who dig on that BlazBlue, I should've expected it to be hyper-technical.

#17 Edited by BananaHace (65 posts) -

The AI isn't that bad at all, once you start actually doing combos and applying pressure, it gives in pretty easily. Except for the final boss though, fuck her.

No move list thing is dumb, but not really -that- big of a deal, and if it really detriments your experience with the game then that is impressive.

People have already explained the button thing, although I do think a notice should pop up the first time you play a game just to make it so people are aware. It's an awesome feature honestly.

why do you care about single player characters being locked WHY

edit: I would argue that cerebella is the zangief of skullgirls. no reason really.

#18 Posted by egg (1467 posts) -

@Cogzwell said:

@nohthink: They are unlocked, there's just no story for them, no story was written for them because they were designed as boss characters. Maybe stories for them might get added later, but the story isn't really the main part of this story.

Yeah, it sort of sucks that Skullgirls doesn't have an in game move list, but the fact that other companies have done so much crap with fighting games like on disc dlc, poor online support, and bad tutorials and this game tries to fix that (and manages to succeed for the most part) but because it doesn't have something in the game which instantly gets you banned in tournaments if you look at it and only use it for the first 5 minutes of playing a character which is easily accessible online, and might be better to have it open on a nearby computer so you don't have to keep stopping the game as frequently , somehow automatically discredit its as a feasible fighting game? If you wanna try and hate this game then be my guest.

Discrediting a game because of its flaws? well of course... is there something I'm missing?

And using a movelist for 5 minutes of playing a character might be a good excuse if the game had only 1 character or if all chars havve the same movelists and same number of moves. And if you never play offline multiplayer.

Depends how many moves the game has, some fighters have like 30-60 moves per fighter. Namely just 3D fighters but still, you're going to be spending the entire game learning those moves. This is just another example of how fighting games try to make playing a game and getting better at it not synonymous with each other.

#19 Posted by killacam (1284 posts) -

@egg said:

@Cogzwell said:

@nohthink: They are unlocked, there's just no story for them, no story was written for them because they were designed as boss characters. Maybe stories for them might get added later, but the story isn't really the main part of this story.

Yeah, it sort of sucks that Skullgirls doesn't have an in game move list, but the fact that other companies have done so much crap with fighting games like on disc dlc, poor online support, and bad tutorials and this game tries to fix that (and manages to succeed for the most part) but because it doesn't have something in the game which instantly gets you banned in tournaments if you look at it and only use it for the first 5 minutes of playing a character which is easily accessible online, and might be better to have it open on a nearby computer so you don't have to keep stopping the game as frequently , somehow automatically discredit its as a feasible fighting game? If you wanna try and hate this game then be my guest.

Discrediting a game because of its flaws? well of course... is there something I'm missing?

And using a movelist for 5 minutes of playing a character might be a good excuse if the game had only 1 character or if all chars havve the same movelists and same number of moves. And if you never play offline multiplayer.

Depends how many moves the game has, some fighters have like 30-60 moves per fighter. Namely just 3D fighters but still, you're going to be spending the entire game learning those moves. This is just another example of how fighting games try to make playing a game and getting better at it not synonymous with each other.

it's not a flaw in the gameplay, it's a temporary setback that is soon to be rectified. yes, there is something you're missing.. the entire game. play it. then criticize how you will.

#20 Posted by MikkaQ (10290 posts) -

Well so much for being the fighting game that was going to make real fighters out of scrubs... Sounds like yet another venue for the skilled fighters to kick everyone's asses while the unskilled don't learn anything.

#21 Posted by OneManX (1693 posts) -

@nohthink: you can play them in anymode, but Story Mode.

You have to unlock them to play in story mode and get thier endings.

#22 Posted by egg (1467 posts) -

@killacam said:

@egg said:

@Cogzwell said:

@nohthink: They are unlocked, there's just no story for them, no story was written for them because they were designed as boss characters. Maybe stories for them might get added later, but the story isn't really the main part of this story.

Yeah, it sort of sucks that Skullgirls doesn't have an in game move list, but the fact that other companies have done so much crap with fighting games like on disc dlc, poor online support, and bad tutorials and this game tries to fix that (and manages to succeed for the most part) but because it doesn't have something in the game which instantly gets you banned in tournaments if you look at it and only use it for the first 5 minutes of playing a character which is easily accessible online, and might be better to have it open on a nearby computer so you don't have to keep stopping the game as frequently , somehow automatically discredit its as a feasible fighting game? If you wanna try and hate this game then be my guest.

Discrediting a game because of its flaws? well of course... is there something I'm missing?

And using a movelist for 5 minutes of playing a character might be a good excuse if the game had only 1 character or if all chars havve the same movelists and same number of moves. And if you never play offline multiplayer.

Depends how many moves the game has, some fighters have like 30-60 moves per fighter. Namely just 3D fighters but still, you're going to be spending the entire game learning those moves. This is just another example of how fighting games try to make playing a game and getting better at it not synonymous with each other.

it's not a flaw in the gameplay, it's a temporary setback that is soon to be rectified. yes, there is something you're missing.. the entire game. play it. then criticize how you will.

So this means criticizing a game for things like loading times, is off limits now?

and It's not really a 'temporary' setback. It's not as though you can unlock movelists at some point. (well unless the devs add it in a patch or DLC... but that doesn't count, because until then the setback is 'permanent')

in a way it's a flaw in the gameplay too because the whole point of a fighting game is memorizing and mastering these moves. It's like taking the on-road holographic guideline out of the Forza and GT games and saying it's not a big deal because you only really needed them for five minutes. Or taking out rear view mirror because it was just there to teach the player that cars you pass end up behind you as opposed to being wiped from existence.

#23 Posted by Dawglet (312 posts) -

Those are fucking terrible analogies.

#24 Posted by OneManX (1693 posts) -

... I do have to say. I would rather the info be on the TV, I'm looking at, than on a computer screen I have to keep near me.

It seems like crazy things to miss, and to market your game to newbs, seems even more nuts. I lvoe the game so far, but if your new to fighting games, you might want to wait for Skullgirls to level up a bit before plunging the money and getting bodied by the AI and Online.

#25 Posted by LordXavierBritish (6320 posts) -

Where do these avatarless monstrosities come from and why are they ruining the forums.

#26 Posted by killacam (1284 posts) -

@egg said:

@killacam said:

@egg said:

@Cogzwell said:

@nohthink: They are unlocked, there's just no story for them, no story was written for them because they were designed as boss characters. Maybe stories for them might get added later, but the story isn't really the main part of this story.

Yeah, it sort of sucks that Skullgirls doesn't have an in game move list, but the fact that other companies have done so much crap with fighting games like on disc dlc, poor online support, and bad tutorials and this game tries to fix that (and manages to succeed for the most part) but because it doesn't have something in the game which instantly gets you banned in tournaments if you look at it and only use it for the first 5 minutes of playing a character which is easily accessible online, and might be better to have it open on a nearby computer so you don't have to keep stopping the game as frequently , somehow automatically discredit its as a feasible fighting game? If you wanna try and hate this game then be my guest.

Discrediting a game because of its flaws? well of course... is there something I'm missing?

And using a movelist for 5 minutes of playing a character might be a good excuse if the game had only 1 character or if all chars havve the same movelists and same number of moves. And if you never play offline multiplayer.

Depends how many moves the game has, some fighters have like 30-60 moves per fighter. Namely just 3D fighters but still, you're going to be spending the entire game learning those moves. This is just another example of how fighting games try to make playing a game and getting better at it not synonymous with each other.

it's not a flaw in the gameplay, it's a temporary setback that is soon to be rectified. yes, there is something you're missing.. the entire game. play it. then criticize how you will.

So this means criticizing a game for things like loading times, is off limits now?

and It's not really a 'temporary' setback. It's not as though you can unlock movelists at some point. (well unless the devs add it in a patch or DLC... but that doesn't count, because until then the setback is 'permanent')

in a way it's a flaw in the gameplay too because the whole point of a fighting game is memorizing and mastering these moves. It's like taking the on-road holographic guideline out of the Forza and GT games and saying it's not a big deal because you only really needed them for five minutes. Or taking out rear view mirror because it was just there to teach the player that cars you pass end up behind you as opposed to being wiped from existence.

for the fifteenth fucking time, there IS a patch on the way that will include move lists. but hey, please keep pretending to be an authority on a game you haven't played in a thread you don't read.

#27 Posted by D_W (1163 posts) -

My experience with that game wasn't much different. 
 
The cpu destroyed me and I couldn't even defend well. It was actually pretty damn funny! 
 
It's a shame about the move list really. I'll be waiting for the the patch. 
 
The big thing I noticed is that there's no input display in training mode. I love how they show the hit boxes, but no input display? Booooo. Not a big deal, but booooo.
 
As for the tutorial. It's the best of any fighting game I've ever played. Unfortunately, that isn't really saying much. It still boils down to a challenge mode with explanations. Fighting games have complex and detailed combat systems. Skullgirls is no exception and that's wonderful! But until developers adapt ideas that inspire good practice technique fighting games' inner depth won't become clear to the masses. I don't understand why a fighting game hasn't come out that allows you to pick an input, chain, combo, etc, then drill through it and give some sort of feedback as to what you may be doing wrong if you can't get it. Skullgirls has some of this with it's "Do this three consecutive times" tutorials, but that's not enough. Asking something like that is a bit much from a new IP downloadable game I suppose, but it something that fighting game developers really need to start implementing. They need to start thinking of their games like sports and to provide effective ways to practice the complex mechanics present in their games. Rock Band, an arcade-y party game, has better training and practice modes then games that some players make a living from. How is that possible? 
 
Regardless, Skullgirls is a solid fighting game and I've been having fun with it so far.

#28 Posted by killacam (1284 posts) -

@D_W

agreed on all that. my hope is that some of these issues were initially to be implemented and time just ran out, but the team will continue to expand one the tutorial aspects of the game. from what i've read/viewed it seems this aspect is really important to them and i wouldn't be surprised if they are addressed in future updates.

#29 Posted by egg (1467 posts) -

@killacam said:

@egg said:

@killacam said:

@egg said:

@Cogzwell said:

@nohthink: They are unlocked, there's just no story for them, no story was written for them because they were designed as boss characters. Maybe stories for them might get added later, but the story isn't really the main part of this story.

Yeah, it sort of sucks that Skullgirls doesn't have an in game move list, but the fact that other companies have done so much crap with fighting games like on disc dlc, poor online support, and bad tutorials and this game tries to fix that (and manages to succeed for the most part) but because it doesn't have something in the game which instantly gets you banned in tournaments if you look at it and only use it for the first 5 minutes of playing a character which is easily accessible online, and might be better to have it open on a nearby computer so you don't have to keep stopping the game as frequently , somehow automatically discredit its as a feasible fighting game? If you wanna try and hate this game then be my guest.

Discrediting a game because of its flaws? well of course... is there something I'm missing?

And using a movelist for 5 minutes of playing a character might be a good excuse if the game had only 1 character or if all chars havve the same movelists and same number of moves. And if you never play offline multiplayer.

Depends how many moves the game has, some fighters have like 30-60 moves per fighter. Namely just 3D fighters but still, you're going to be spending the entire game learning those moves. This is just another example of how fighting games try to make playing a game and getting better at it not synonymous with each other.

it's not a flaw in the gameplay, it's a temporary setback that is soon to be rectified. yes, there is something you're missing.. the entire game. play it. then criticize how you will.

So this means criticizing a game for things like loading times, is off limits now?

and It's not really a 'temporary' setback. It's not as though you can unlock movelists at some point. (well unless the devs add it in a patch or DLC... but that doesn't count, because until then the setback is 'permanent')

in a way it's a flaw in the gameplay too because the whole point of a fighting game is memorizing and mastering these moves. It's like taking the on-road holographic guideline out of the Forza and GT games and saying it's not a big deal because you only really needed them for five minutes. Or taking out rear view mirror because it was just there to teach the player that cars you pass end up behind you as opposed to being wiped from existence.

for the fifteenth fucking time, there IS a patch on the way that will include move lists. but hey, please keep pretending to be an authority on a game you haven't played in a thread you don't read.

I never said there wasn't, but that has nothing to do with my post.

We're discussing principle here. The question is not whether Skullgirls is getting movelists but whether permanently having no movelists is a ''temporary'' setbackor not, and whether it's ok to criticize games for things other than its gameplay merits. (such as bad UI like Skullgirls, load times, annoying characters/story, on-disc DLC, bad save management, etc)

#30 Posted by CornBREDX (5303 posts) -

Sounds a lot like this game is meant for the competitive scene and not so much for anyone else. I think I'll pass for now. Not really into competitive fighting games these days.

Quick Look or something would be cool though.

#31 Posted by a1793221 (1 posts) -

played it 1st time on hardest mode "Ridiculous" n it was easy, only 1 hard characters in it "Peacock" (runs to the other side of the screen n do projectiles like a online noob would)..."Double" can b difficult at times too, other than that its pretty easy...as for the pause its like the other person said, hold to pause and for & for quicker/instant pause use the "Guide Button"...i agree about the move list, they should have put 1 in the game, they could even have locked it for when u finish the game (sometimes its nice figuring things out on ur own) or something but there should b 1...i think the game is gr8...pretty original but it also copied a LOT of things from multiple other games, i think they could have come up with other new stuff than using some of whats bn done b4.

#32 Posted by Axelhander (159 posts) -

Reading a lot of nonsense in this thread. A LOT of nonsense. Which isn't to say Skullgirls hasn't made some missteps, but some of the "criticisms" being thrown out here are laughable.

#33 Posted by Axelhander (159 posts) -

So thinking on it further, my last post wasn't terribly constructive. Here's something with a bit more meat.

This is a $15 fully featured fighting game with more effort put into its design and mechanics than most games 3-4 times the price. This includes the laughable mess that is Street Fighter X Tekken and the slightly less messy but still really flippin' messy SF4 and MvC3 series.

"Worst game this gen" is just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Have you played Super Smash Bros. Brawl? It costs a lot more, has the absolute most anti-gaming, contemptuous mechanic a bitter designer has ever plugged into a game (tripping chance on dash), and has the audacity to both lock much of the game behind arbitrary hurdles while not allowing save file transfers. If there's a candidate for "worst game this gen," it's it.

Skullgirls is like the opposite of worst. It was designed with all kinds of players in mind, meticulously playtested in live environments, designed by a guy who wants to make more competitive gamers out of the casual crowd while still giving that crowd something desireable.

$15. Compare the cost of any other comparably made fighter.

Should there have been in-game move lists? Yes. Does the absence of this feature really take away from the damn solid fighting engine? Not even slightly. What laziness, to seriously not be able to look up a flippin' move list. Especially in a competitive fighter with super-solid netcode, where one might be expected to -- gasp -- seek out community-fed strategy and tactics. *The horror.*

My generic Nyquil equivalent is kicking in, so I'm cutting it off soon. Quick comments on the other "missteps": single player difficulty in not the chief concern in a competitive fighter, and the AI is designed to teach. Instead of complaining, learn. Locked characters in story mode = big flippin' deal. It isn't like they're locked in versus, which is what actually matters. Hold the pause button to pause, and wonder why more fighters, and some non-fighters, lack this important feature.

Today's gamer seriously disappoints this dude whose first game was Berserk on Atari 2600. We've come a long way... at being lazy and complaining before applying thought. For shame.

#34 Edited by ricetopher (1046 posts) -

Reading some of the posts in this thread really back up my belief that fighting games should stop trying to appeal to people who aren't truly interested in them in the first place. Which is a shame, because Skullgirls is best fighter to come out this year so far, and the best example of making fighting games more accessible without lowering the skill ceiling.
 
Now if only certain fighting game devs (*cough* Capcom *cough*) can realize that and start making some real fighting games again.

#35 Posted by Axelhander (159 posts) -

@ricetopher said:

Reading some of the posts in this thread really back up my belief that fighting games should stop trying to appeal to people who aren't truly interested in them in the first place. Which is a shame, because Skullgirls is best fighter to come out this year so far, and the best example of making fighting games more accessible without lowering the skill ceiling.

Now if only certain fighting game devs (*cough* Capcom *cough*) can realize that and start making some real fighting games again.

I want a Like button to like posts like this.

#36 Posted by UnskilledNinja (3 posts) -

Let me see if I understand you: The problem you have with the AI is not that it's too easy, like in Marvel vs Capcom 3 (Where even on the hardest difficulty, the first match is pretty much busy work). It's not that it's too stupid and doesn't know how to get around one move, like Zangief's Lariat in Street Fighter IV or CPs on certain stages in Smash Bros. It's not even that it's a cheater that makes you rage at the unfairness, like charge characters in any Street Fighter II version or the final boss of Skullgirls, who will probably make you toss your controller through the TV screen at how she ignores your hitstun.

No, your problem is that the AI is too hard and actually does some of the things to you that a human player would.

This might be surprising to you, but one of the key elements of some games (Including fighters, due to the competitive aspect) is challenge. It gives players a reason to care about their performance, since there is actually a punishment for failure. Even better, it gives players a reason to improve, since they will be able to surpass obstacles. While it may be tough initially, those who endure find themselves with a sense of relief and satisfaction, one they could not have received from just clicking on a cow.

Maybe, instead of condemning the game for not being easy to a newcomer within a day, you can try to figure out what you did wrong (Hint: You glow red when subjected to an infinite), and fix that issue.

#37 Posted by Hailinel (24830 posts) -

@Cogzwell said:

@nohthink: They are unlocked, there's just no story for them, no story was written for them because they were designed as boss characters. Maybe stories for them might get added later, but the story isn't really the main part of this story.

Yeah, it sort of sucks that Skullgirls doesn't have an in game move list, but the fact that other companies have done so much crap with fighting games like on disc dlc, poor online support, and bad tutorials and this game tries to fix that (and manages to succeed for the most part) but because it doesn't have something in the game which instantly gets you banned in tournaments if you look at it and only use it for the first 5 minutes of playing a character which is easily accessible online, and might be better to have it open on a nearby computer so you don't have to keep stopping the game as frequently , somehow automatically discredit its as a feasible fighting game? If you wanna try and hate this game then be my guest.

There are games such as the BlazBlue series that have included tutorials of such depth that they make any game with simple move lists and little else look like an embarrassment. Skullgirls dropped the ball in not providing one of the most basic, common teaching methods of the genre.

#38 Edited by churrific (479 posts) -

I don't really care for any of the issues that the OP had. Instead I'm mostly just interested in the fighting system. Is it fun enough where I can get past the art style (that's my only gripe with it as its not really for me)? More specifically, I keep hearing there's alot of free form in it. Free form as in you can set up whatever assists you like, or in that you can come up with whatever character-specific combos you want? What gets me interested in a fighting game usually is if I'd see a sick combo done by someone else, and I just get obsessed with learning how to do it. I haven't seen that yet personally in Skullgirls, but I think it could be fun if I could be the creator of something for a change.

Also, with just 8 or 9 characters, does anyone think they'd get tired of playing the same matchups all the time after learning all of them (not that that doesn't happen organically in other games with large rosters, but I always get a kick out of fighting a randomly rare character once in a blue moon)?

#39 Posted by StarvingGamer (8245 posts) -
@churrific Yeah, the combo system is one of the most free-form systems I've seen in a fighting game. Almost everything chains into everything, OTGs are universal, there's a lot of freedom and input leniency for canceling specials and supers. Also you can choose to play as 1-3 characters on your team with their stats adjusted accordingly. Assists can literally be anything you want them to be. The game has room for creativity on par or even beyond MvC3 but has several smart systems in place to drastically reduce the execution barrier.

As far as the limited roster go, I think the variance between team size and assist type will help keep things fresh. Also there are plans for DLC characters.
#40 Posted by HectorGarfria (7 posts) -

@rebgav: If this qualifies as a straight-up legit question, I don't want to live on this planet anymore. Are you equating the absence of movelists and having to go on the internet instead as a game company trying to hustle Johnny-come-latelies out of 15 dollars?

The jump in logic is a tad much.

#41 Posted by Sauson (561 posts) -

The only problem I had is when you get to the part in the tutorial where it teaches you about canceling normals into super, it doesn't tell you how to do the god damn super it just gives you the name of it.

#42 Posted by James_Giant_Peach (751 posts) -

@Axelhander said:

So thinking on it further, my last post wasn't terribly constructive. Here's something with a bit more meat.

This is a $15 fully featured fighting game with more effort put into its design and mechanics than most games 3-4 times the price. This includes the laughable mess that is Street Fighter X Tekken and the slightly less messy but still really flippin' messy SF4 and MvC3 series.

"Worst game this gen" is just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Have you played Super Smash Bros. Brawl? It costs a lot more, has the absolute most anti-gaming, contemptuous mechanic a bitter designer has ever plugged into a game (tripping chance on dash), and has the audacity to both lock much of the game behind arbitrary hurdles while not allowing save file transfers. If there's a candidate for "worst game this gen," it's it.

Skullgirls is like the opposite of worst. It was designed with all kinds of players in mind, meticulously playtested in live environments, designed by a guy who wants to make more competitive gamers out of the casual crowd while still giving that crowd something desireable.

$15. Compare the cost of any other comparably made fighter.

Should there have been in-game move lists? Yes. Does the absence of this feature really take away from the damn solid fighting engine? Not even slightly. What laziness, to seriously not be able to look up a flippin' move list. Especially in a competitive fighter with super-solid netcode, where one might be expected to -- gasp -- seek out community-fed strategy and tactics. *The horror.*

My generic Nyquil equivalent is kicking in, so I'm cutting it off soon. Quick comments on the other "missteps": single player difficulty in not the chief concern in a competitive fighter, and the AI is designed to teach. Instead of complaining, learn. Locked characters in story mode = big flippin' deal. It isn't like they're locked in versus, which is what actually matters. Hold the pause button to pause, and wonder why more fighters, and some non-fighters, lack this important feature.

Today's gamer seriously disappoints this dude whose first game was Berserk on Atari 2600. We've come a long way... at being lazy and complaining before applying thought. For shame.

You know by constantly mentioning the price, all you're doing is conveying an argument along the lines of "Oh come on you guys it's not much money so you can't expect that much!"

You call it a 'fully-featured fighting game', firstly, the term fully-featured could apply to nearly any game on the market, but secondly, to my mind, a fighting game without move lists is not fully-featured.Saying there was more effort put into this than SF4 and MvC3 is a joke, and just demonstrates what I continue to despise about the competitive community, of which I assume you are a part, nothing is ever good enough for you people apparently and you have to complain and bitch, even about the games you regularly follow and play at tournaments. It's a joke, for once be grateful for what you've got.

Calling SSBB the worst game this gen is just about the dumbest thing I've ever heard, and yet again you demonstrate the idiocy of the competitive community, calling a game out for one mechanic that doesn't quite suit you is pathetic. It's a God damn Nintendo product where Pikachu fights Sonic, it's meant to be fun as hell not super hardcore.

Skullgirls clearly intended to be designed with multiple types of gamers in mind, but the end product clearly isn't. Lack of movelists, tutorials that are decent but still fail to get to the root of the problem, and an incredibly punishing singleplayer, so guys like me who get destroyed online can't even just go beat on the AI for a bit.

There you go mentioning the money again, way to belittle the product you're trying to defend. You know what? I can't compare it to anything else because there are no other original $15 downloadable fighting games, but if I compare it to a full-price title, it looks pathetically weak in comparison.

Yes there should have been move lists. Glad you agree. No it doesn't take away from the fighting engine, but nobody said it did, it takes away from the game as a whole. What laziness indeed, to not take the time to put together a few move list jpegs and stick them in the game. Especially in a fighter that clearly took the time to model cartoon T&A so well.

Maybe single player difficulty is not the chief concern for you. But for plenty of players, it will be huge. I, for one, love going through arcade and story modes, I've been doing it in every fighting game I play since SFII. Again, you say the game is marketed to all players, but with AI so damn difficult, I don't think 'Mike Z' or any of you people realise that for guys who like fighting games, but suck at them, this sort of mad hard difficulty won't teach us anything, It'll serve only to frustrate and annoy. Maybe if the tutorials actually, for once, sat down and went through combos with players, providing demonstrations of proper timing and inputs, we'd actually learn something, but making a single mistake and getting punished with a 30-hit combo by the AI doesn't teach me a damn thing. Again, saying versus is what really matters simply isn't true for a proportion of the crowd. Yeah, take my finger off the attack buttons and stand there idly for a second or two while the damn thing pauses, giving the computer a chance to attack me, smart addition.

Buddy, my first game was Air-Sea Battle and hell yeah we certainly have come a long way, and as such, people are more entitled now to criticise and complain when the simplest of things are overlooked and stupid mistakes are made. Jumping in with your tired old "You're not playing it right!" only adds to the problem.

#43 Posted by Axelhander (159 posts) -

@rebgav said:

Straight-up legit question; How accessible is Skullgirls if learning how to play properly requires you to go seek out information and videos on shoryuken.com like any other fighting game? Wouldn't it be a better idea for a new player to jump into a mainstream fighting game where they might find more players at their skill level and then seek out strategy and tactics online in the same way? It seems a lot like all of the noob-friendly posturing is just an attempt to drum up sales for a game which has really been built to appeal to hardcore fighting game fans.

Legit answer: as accessible as any other well-made fighting game. Or any, and The Rock means *any*, well made competitive multiplayer game period. You don't have a game like this without a community of players finding, and breaking, it. Given it encourages multiplayer and especially internet multiplayer, being able to access said internet to learn is not a flaw.

Don't misunderstand: it sucks that there's no in-game move list, and I'm reasonably certain Mike Z thinks it sucks too. I'm not defending this feature's exclusion, I'm condemning the idea that its exclusion is as big a black mark as it's made out to be by certain posters here, especially when much more crucial features are covered by the game, like proper button config accessible on character select.

@James_Giant_Peach said:

Stupidity.

You'll forgive my abridging of your post to its most base component. Saving room and whatnot. You'll also forgive the abridged bullet point answer, as I don't make a habit of trying to convince who I perceive to be woefully out of touch with reality. Here goes:

  • Nice straw man, but my mentioning of price is valid and warranted, given our capitalistic society and whatnot. Perhaps if all games cost the same, I'd be talking out my ass, but until then the $15 price point needs to be considered when assessing weak criticism.
  • SSSB is the worst game this gen, and another excellent straw man in claiming the reason why is because I don't like the feature I condemned. News flash: tripping is a bad feature for ALL gamers, competitive and casual. It occasionally, inconsistently, rewards a crucial part of play (movement) with failure caused by neither your mistake nor your opponent's cunning. It's bad design, for everyone from Justin Wong to Granny McCasualgamer. Its roster is irrelevant to the point, and part of the reason this bullet is going on too long, given you actually think "it's a game where Pikachu fights Sonic" is legitimate defense. Are you MovieBob or something?
  • In-game move lists are "nice to have." Not "critically required." Same applies to in-game strategy and versus screens before a match.
  • Single player is important to an extent. Some games are primarily single player experiences, and some games aren't. Competitive fighters aren't. Neither was Tribes. This is all assuming the AI difficulty "misstep" wasn't sufficiently addressed; it was.
  • Holding to pause drastically cuts down on accidental pausing, as has been sufficiently addressed.
  • The "it sucks because you suck at it argument" is not always valid, I'll give you that. Sonic fanboys tend to use that defense. But sometimes it does matter, like when people moan about the A button being both run and cover in Gears of War.
  • It's possible to have gamed for a long time and still have no clue. Insert another MovieBob reference here.
#44 Posted by AtomskLevent (14 posts) -

Just wanna throw my two cents in here.

First, I'm not a fighting game player. Essentially a scrub for sure, but I do enjoy battling my way through the story mode of certain fighting games when I've been able to afford them.

Soul Cal 1 and 2, BlazBlue, a few Guilty Gear games and a few old Street Fighter games (Can't even tell you how many times I played the SF-II Game Boy version as a kid).

I've always found playing on 'Normal' to be just right for me. I find it slightly challenging about mid-way and the difficulty rises accordingly towards the end, no problem. That's how you learn a few little tricks and beat it. I always figured 'Hard' or 'Insane' modes were for real fighting game players and tournie players. (And of course Easy mode or Super Easy would be for people just fiddling around or your kid brother, you know?)

But with Skullgirls, I really feel shit on. I hate to say it, because I absolutely love the art (I swear someone told me Paul Robertson helped on this, but I guess not?) and love how the story looks, the mechanics look great, the menu and vibe look great to me.

My wife, an avid gamer herself, plops on the couch and gives me a heads up from the other room that she's going to buy Skullgirls. I say great, she'll play through some of the stories and when I've got time I'll do the same. Ten minutes later I hear her getting absolutely frustrated and I'm thinking 'The hell? My wife is at least 3/4ths as good as I am at fighters, she's played most of the same games. I know she's beat Soul Cal 2 with every character and then some'. So I go check on her and ask what's up. She says she tried hitting up Normal mode and was essentially demolished. So she thought she'd check out the tutorial and get some of the basics down better and find the move-list. (We both found the 'Up, right right' dash to be strangely unresponsive in the tutorial and that's what she was getting frustrated at). So she hands me the controller and asks me to try out Normal mode. Big fucking mistake. I've never felt so -bad- at something, like I'm at a Fighting Game tournament and someone told me I'm magically entered for no reason.

Normal Mode? Not a fucking chance, I was blasted away in seconds.

All right, fine, I'll try easy. I've never had to go on easy mode in any other game, but sure, I'll go and check it out to retain some slight dignity. Fine.

Nope. I'm smashed again, but this time I got 2 hits off! The hell? Easy Mode. You know, that mode you put it on for your cousin or little brother who has been bugging you to play, because he's over for the weekend and has been staring at your wife's cleavage just a little too much, so you let him amuse himself with that a little while instead. (The game, not my wife's cleavage.)

Fine. I feel like a child at this point, but fine. I will go try SLEEPWALK mode. The mode they claimed straight to Giant Bomb in a Quick Look, was for people who 'just wanted to breeze through the game and experience the story'. So after a couple rounds I'm feeling a little better, I'm actually winning and only being brought to half health. But then yet again, I get to about the 4th and I die about 3 times. It's a lot closer, but I just cave at this point. Why is this AI so damn difficult, even on the 'Breezy walk through the park' difficulty? I can't even fathom the testing crew they had on this game. A bunch of tournament players or what? You can't tell me some kid they brought in was just like 'yep, yep, games great, just the right amount of challenge!'. I just can't fathom this.

Of course, I still love the art and I'm still happy I purchased the game, because I'm assuming (or hoping?) that they'll patch it sometime and we'll have a more balanced experience. But come on folks, you can't just say 'oh, it's not that hard' after listing off what you're doing, because you're clearly a person who plays a lot of fighting games.

I'm usually an advocate for the 'Well, it's in this price range' type argument, but that just doesn't cut it (Not for this game and really, not this day and age either.) Maybe things like Steam sales and the far better prices of games these days have spoiled me. But it's not an indie game, it's a full fledged game. I expect some things out of a game of this quality.

Much of that being, I'm an 'extras' whore. Move-lists and junk aside, where's my galleries of Concept art and cutscenes, where's my training stage where I can just fuck around with an AI that I dictate in various ways. (To be fair though, there may be extras and cut-scenes unlocked when you actually beat a story or something, I have no idea.)

I'm down to the rambling point, but I really hope this is patched -before- a price drop, because then I'd just feel dumb for buying it and having to wait for that patch, when I could have waited and bought it for less that.

#45 Posted by Commisar123 (1793 posts) -

There are some polish issues but it is still the most impressive fighting game since Street Fighter IV

#46 Posted by Animasta (14692 posts) -

@Axelhander: Sorry dude SSBB is not the worst game this gen, are you out of your fucking mind?

#47 Edited by MikeFightNight (1110 posts) -

The biggest fault with the game I can find is not including a move list from the get go. In no way can I defend them doing that and making me print out a bunch of move lists.

Went straight into training and fooled around for awhile, then went online. The net code is solid and I like that it gives you the straight up ping number in green or red before you decide to join the match.

I am totally digging the game. I like it a lot more then SFXT. I wish Capcom still did sprite animation like this, it looks absolutley stunning, I like the style better then BlazBlue. Maybe they can hire these artists to do their Darkstalkers game. So many frames!

#48 Posted by Axelhander (159 posts) -

If you're playing games mostly for the extras, hey do what you love, but I posit you're perhaps missing the point of games.

@Animasta said:

@Axelhander: Sorry dude SSBB is not the worst game this gen, are you out of your fucking mind?

I explained why. Please read my posts if you're actually interested. I suspect you're not.

#49 Edited by Animasta (14692 posts) -

@Axelhander said:

If you're playing games mostly for the extras, hey do what you love, but I posit you're perhaps missing the point of games.

@Animasta said:

@Axelhander: Sorry dude SSBB is not the worst game this gen, are you out of your fucking mind?

I explained why. Please read my posts if you're actually interested. I suspect you're not.

you said this, and then proceeded to explain that tripping was bullshit. sure, it's probably bullshit, but that's ONE feature. I can play it, and I can have fun with it, in spite of that. I cannot, however, have fun with like, blackwater

#50 Posted by Overbite (203 posts) -

I don't understand the complaining about the AI being too hard. I can't even finish story mode in Street Fighter 4 on normal but I had no problems playing through Skullgirls story mode on normal my first time. The only issues I had were with the final boss and even then it was easy once I figured out a way to beat it.

The tutorials were kind of hard, especially the throw teching, because it locks you out of everything BUT what you are supposed to do when doing the early stuff. That makes it harder for some reason.

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