Great read, Patrick! The Lang Zone really kicked it up a notch.

@ravenlight: I agree. I think crowdfunding has actually increased the potential for average folks to understand how much it costs to make games. I realize there's potential for confusion when some Kickstarters ask for less than they actually need, hoping for overflow, but even this has engaged people to ask questions about how much money is needed for X step in the process. That wasn't happening before.

I'm hesitant to write many stories about Kickstarter projects because an article, it it provokes a certain level of sympathy, directly leads to financial donations. That makes me uncomfortable. I didn't actively pursue this story until it was over the funding line, and even then, my goal was not to necessarily highlight the Indiegogo part of it, and instead offer an examination of the $150K amount.

Ian Bogost's piece on Kickstarter for Fast Company has my favorite analysis of this phenomenon.

http://www.fastcompany.com/1843007/kickstarter-crowdfunding-platform-or-reality-show

Fixed, and appreciate you pointing that out. Hope to have more of this in the future, been happy with how many features I've been able to get up so far in 2013 versus 2012. Alex has done a great job with his editorials, too, he has another really good feature lined up for this week.

No, you're not wrong. This is dirt cheap, and a rough financial road for the developers.

@phatmac: We'll be at Evo - we got a tournament space and Top 8 streamed as a consolation prize for actually competing so hard and pushing Smash's contributions so high.

Damn, I was not expecting this surprise trip to the Lang Zone, but I'm so glad we took it. I work in software development, so I'm well aware of how much even small seeming things can cost, but it's nice to see someone come and lay it out like that.

@alpha_rudy@hotmail.com: Easier said than done, unfortunately. My 360 is no where near my computer, and as someone who hasn't upgraded to a smartphone and doesn't own a tablet this would require a lot of running throughout the house for something that should be as easy as pausing and pulling up a menu.

This definitely accounts for some of the frustration you see from developers working on downloadable content for a game that's released after the game's initial launch. I'm not defending the practice of why such DLC (like, say, Asura's Wrath's ending) exists in the first place, but to say it doesn't cost a substantial amount is to definitely miss the point. There's some miscommunication on both ends.

Activision breaks it down on their financials into Game Development and Marketing. EA just throws everything under Operating Expenses.

Ubi Soft actually breaks things down the most of any of the major third party publishers. Granted, it leads to a 150 page annual report, but its a good read if you know the accounting lingo.

Wow, I saw the campaign and I am really surprised it hit the asking price - let alone in one day.

Congratulations to those guys, I was definately surprised to learn how expensive those characters are.

1. No, the staff will be working full-time making this character. We have to do a ton of work to support the outsourcing efforts.

During the development of the core game, our internal art staff routinely worked 80-100 hour weeks. And that's with the 70-100 animation contractors we use supporting us.

2. We wouldn't be paying these salaries if we weren't making this character because we're still in the (very) formative stages of being a new studio. We don't have an office or other projects at the moment - everyone's working from home, for the most part, tracking everything online. This is something our team is actually very good at.

3. A full 40% of the money we're requesting is going to what we needed to do to get the money and get the content onto people's systems. Hugely inefficient, but it's not like we had a choice.

@patrickklepek I think your quote pull from Dave Lang is extremely enlightening, and some straight talk about money this audience rarely gets to see, and I fully encourage you to do more in this light.

I like that Valve is a private company (I know you aren't advocating them going public, but hear me out), and while I am curious about their financials, it's purely curiosity - I don't need to know, and I'd prefer they're private than public. I think companies often lose something when they go public and start answering to investors rather than consumers - Valve has made Steam work, and work well, which is sort of crazy when you consider that it's DRM, and people mostly hate DRM because when they think of DRM, they think of DRM done poorly.

That being said, I like seeing numbers as much as anyone else, and I'd like to know how Far Cry 3, for example, did on PC vs. the 360. But if the alternative to the current status quo is Valve releasing numbers, but answering to investors and only concerning themselves with increasing revenue, then no thank you.

wow good write up, it's inspiring to see the such humble developers

Not that he shouldn't have read it, but to be fair maybe that shouldn't be the headline then.

@phished0ne said:

@donpixel said:

People willingess to trow money at kick-starters still bends my mind.

you mean like our willingness to throw money at a website we have no proof does anything worthwhile with our money?

1st - I use this site lots, I found it useful for my needs. So whenever I renew my Giantbomb subscription I visualise I'm paying for a service.

2nd - Skullgirlz or whatever is spelled its pretty darn stupid

3rd - Whatever right? free country you are entitled to have bad taste: so, if you DO LIKE skull girls, well though life, shitty entertainment products are usually nonprofitable, What about moving on to another option? I mean is not like there is noooothing to do out there?

People trowing money at kickstarters I would urge to think about:

- Why should I finance speculative entretaiment products when there is countless and countless of other options? I miss Planescape Torment, Did I run to gift money to the Planetscape Torment kickstarter... FUCK NO, I mean what for? there is Cyberpunk 2077 coming soon. Let capitalism do its job, shitty dated products need to die, so better newer ones can arise.

-Why getting so attached to a name franchise? If they fail commercialy, why should I invest in their production?

- Don't get me wrong, some rational fanboysm is OK, I just don't understand.. Why Why!? there is something really sad of trowing a large amount of money to something like Skullgirls, Do you have a girlfriend? what a bout a gift to her? Do you have a brother you love? why don't buy him tickets to a sport match. Even, do you love your mother? what about doing something nice to her?. Are you a selfish morron? save the money invest it for your retirement.. Do you want to make the world a better place? Give some money to charity.

OOhhh jeeeez I love skukllgirlzz, Need to trown money at it, eventhou its pure speculations.. Kickstarters YAY!

It's still high. I would be happy to make $107 a day if my calculations for that salary are correct. I make $58.81, I'm a senior graphics designer & concept artist (in the EU which is 45.6EUR or ~1000EUR per month without bonuses, and around 1500EUR with them) working for a private company with an 8 hour "shift" starting at 7am and ending at 16pm, which is roughly half as those guys get. For pretty much similar kind of work, based on the game look and design.

Of course I know that not all of those 8 are paid the same salary or maybe even they do.

I know I shouldn't compare myself, but for me this salary alone seems high, not to mention all the other expenses, which I think might be already covered in the 8 people working on that thing, I don't know who does animation and hit-box rigging if not the same guys, but whatever.

150k for a single character seems overboard whatever anyone says, as someone said that a price for a modest house here and I do not believe couple of pixels are worth this much.

I should switch my line of work and country apparently.

I'm very happy to see this sort of coverage. As a developer it's sometimes hard to get across how much money and time it takes to do anything. Not that it necessarily should matter to the consumer, but it's important as an industry to keep these costs in perspective.

@ravidrath: Thanks for the further explanation. I didn't know about the background of Skullgirls, so my doubts were based on the the assumption that your company was going to be paying staff/renting space regardless of whether this project happened. Of course, this means that a different company, faced with fewer financial uncertainties, might actually find it much cheaper to fund work like this since they would have the luxury of disassociating some of their running costs from the project.

If there is an audience large enough to fund the development of a product while having no access to the profits or property rights thereof, and venture capitalists have not already exploited such an audience in which they would have access to the profits and property rights, would it not logically connect that capitalism has failed in such a situation?

A PC version is on the way.

I wish more devs would break down development cost like that.

Thanks for the article Patrick! It's good to see fighting games, and Skullgirls in particular, get more coverage.

The people who are shocked over the price for 1 character aren't including the fact that characters are not designed by just one person. As the article explains, creating a character is not a straightforward process; it never has been. I suggest reading the process that SNK used to animate the characters in KOF13. It takes over 6 months just to do ONE character from start to finish. Keep in mind that these teams are fairly large. There's a reason why Capcom reused sprites back in the day.

@fargofallout: How Valve runs their business works great for Valve, but we really have no barometer if it works out for the developers.

It came out today that Retro City Rampage sold the best on the PlayStation Network, more specifically, the PlayStation Vita. This is a game that has been on Steam, and has been cheap on Steam, but the developers of the game have made their most money on the PlayStation Network version.

Having a catalog of great games cheap is the main appeal of Steam. The problem is that we do not know if it is a viable, long term, service. There might be a very legitimate reason that Valve is exploring hardware all of a sudden.

I love pretty much everything about Skullgirls, even though I can't play fighting games. If I wasn't broke, I'd donate to this. I'd really like to see them expand the weird little universe they've got going there.

Great article Partick. You raise an important issue with game development perception. I'm also glad Skullgirls is getting the love and attention it deserves. I'm a huge fan of the game.

Loving all the quality articles we're getting on the new site.

I agree. Being educated on game development is not a bad thing at all, and it would help to dispel the ignorant statements.

Your own salary is not comparable. There is a hell of a difference in the cost of living in the USA which varies wildly between states also. $600 a week in LA... Those guys must all still be living with parents cos shit be expensive in that wannabe infested hollywood shit hole. It'll barely cover rent and utilities.

Is Mike Z still on the team?

@donpixel said:

@phished0ne said:

@donpixel said:

People willingess to trow money at kick-starters still bends my mind.

you mean like our willingness to throw money at a website we have no proof does anything worthwhile with our money?

1st - I use this site lots, I found it useful for my needs

2nd - Skullgirlz or whatever is spelled its pretty darn stupid

3rd - Whatever right? free country you are entitled to have bad taste: so, if you DO LIKE skull girls, well though life, shitty entertainment products are usually nonprofitable, What about moving on to another option? I mean is not like there is noooothing to do out there?

People trowing money at kickstarters I would urge to think about:

- Why should I finance speculative entretaiment products when there is countless and countless of other options? I miss Planescape Torment, Did I run to gift money the Planetscape Torment kickstarter... FUCK NO, I mean what for? there is Cyberpunk 2077 coming soon. Let capitalism do its job, shitty dated products need to die, so better newer ones can arise.

-Why getting so attached to a name franchise? If they fail commercialy, why should I invest in their production?

- Don't get me wrong, some rational fanboysm is OK, I just don't understand.. Why Why!? there is something really sad of trowing a large amount of money to something like Skullgirls, Don't you have a girlfriend? what a bout a gift to her? Do you have a brother you love? why don't buy him tickets to a sport match. Even, do you love your mother? what about doing something nice to her?. Are you a selfish morron? save the money invest it for your retirement.. Do you want to make the world a better place? Give some money to charity.

OOhhh jeeeez I love skukllgirlzz, Need to trown money at it, eventhou its pure speculations.. Kickstarters YAY!

-Because you like it? There is nothing shitty or dated about Skullgirls. Art style is subjective, but anyone who knows anything about fighting games can appreciate the intelligently designed systems and well though-out gameplay. The problem is it is catering to a niche market within a niche market, meaning the audience for the game is incredibly small. But if it's large enough to support continued development (which clearly it is based on the Indiegogo drive), then why not? YOU clearly shouldn't finance it, but they're not asking YOU for your money.

-It's no less sad than your GB membership. Don't you have a girlfriend? That $60 you spent could have gone to a gift for her. Do you have a brother you love? Why didn't you buy him tickets to a sports match? Do you love your mother? Why didn't you do something nice for her? Are you a selfish moron? Save that $60 and invest it for your retirement, and use the 5 minutes you wasted typing that reply, along with all the time you burn "us[ing] this site lots," to do some good and actually make the world a better place.

Hey Patrick, I intend to make sweet love to the words you write. That aside

I went to college for accounting, and understand budgeting, compounding, depreciation accounts ect ect. and people just don't get the cost of a project, any project. What I have noticed from people who buy video games (especially indie games) is they think that everyone works for free from their home. So the only cost is for an engine. (Which they incorrectly believe costs like, $100) They don't seem to take into account, payroll, supplies, rent, anything really. I understand they lack transparency, but it's also a lack of basic financial knowledge that dooms a lot of these projects.

@meatsim: I dunno, I think we took a huge risk by doing this. It mostly seems to have paid off, but we still have people nit-picking our costs. I mostly expect this is because they're HS kids or whatever who don't know how quickly the costs of running a business and employing people stack up. Or just don't know things that, like, when you hire a voice actor you also need to account for paying a director, getting the studio time, etc. in addition to the actor.

@patrickklepek: I phrased that wrong, maybe not covering Kickstarter stuff, but more of this insider baseball esque pieces. Like on the podcast this week Brad floated the idea that the story of the new Tomb Raider game might have changed as they became more heavy handed with their marketing. Or how Sanzaru Games felt by developing their own game in a series that was dominated by Sucker Punch Ideals.

Or even better, How in the Hell the creators of the Fire Emblem Series can get me to care so much about their 2D characters who literally have a single sound of voice acting.

I'm not implying the system is perfect or just, its certainly neither. I'm just saying, we ain't also in a dire situation in which we cannot access to quality entertaiment, as I said there is Cyberpunk 2077 coming, Deus EX HR was badass, and Watching Dogs is very promising.

Of all the things you can consume in this life, the options for entertainment are vast and varied, so yet again though life for Planetscapet, but whatever I just move on...

Consider the rule of entertaiment revenue is around 10% of the products do 90% of the revenue, chances are 1 to 10, the product coming out of your kickstarter is gonna suck.

Great article! I love that this is part of the conversation. I've been toying with the idea of striking out on my own with a kickstarter... but the costs are honestly the most terrifying prospect.

Generally speaking, the smaller the team, the harder each member has to work. How do I convince others to work twice as hard than their corporate job for a reduced salary? Do I even have the dedication to do that myself? And even then, I have to convince the internet that "yeah, it really will cost 100 thousand." To most that sounds like a lot of money, but to me, that's a bargain!

Still... at least the option exists. That's better then we could say a few years ago.

Great article Patrick. Write more articles like this. I always knew that the cost of making games was really high but its really been laid out like it is here. Really interesting stuff. Great article.

@donpixel said:

@phished0ne said:

@donpixel said:

People willingess to trow money at kick-starters still bends my mind.

you mean like our willingness to throw money at a website we have no proof does anything worthwhile with our money?

1st - I use this site lots, I found it useful for my needs. So whenever I renew my Giantbomb subscription I visualise I'm paying for a service.

2nd - Skullgirlz or whatever is spelled its pretty darn stupid

3rd - Whatever right? free country you are entitled to have bad taste: so, if you DO LIKE skull girls, well though life, shitty entertainment products are usually nonprofitable, What about moving on to another option? I mean is not like there is noooothing to do out there?

People trowing money at kickstarters I would urge to think about:

- Why should I finance speculative entretaiment products when there is countless and countless of other options? I miss Planescape Torment, Did I run to gift money to the Planetscape Torment kickstarter... FUCK NO, I mean what for? there is Cyberpunk 2077 coming soon. Let capitalism do its job, shitty dated products need to die, so better newer ones can arise.

-Why getting so attached to a name franchise? If they fail commercialy, why should I invest in their production?

- Don't get me wrong, some rational fanboysm is OK, I just don't understand.. Why Why!? there is something really sad of trowing a large amount of money to something like Skullgirls, Do you have a girlfriend? what a bout a gift to her? Do you have a brother you love? why don't buy him tickets to a sport match. Even, do you love your mother? what about doing something nice to her?. Are you a selfish morron? save the money invest it for your retirement.. Do you want to make the world a better place? Give some money to charity.

OOhhh jeeeez I love skukllgirlzz, Need to trown money at it, eventhou its pure speculations.. Kickstarters YAY!

Internet troll responds to troll post with more trolling?: NEWS AT 8!

In case you weren't trolling let me dissect your points:

1) your donation to giant bomb is justified by your use of the site, but someone else's donation to a game they enjoy isn't justified because "SKULLGIRLS IS TEH DUMB GAEMZ". Well if i didnt also think giant bomb was a good site i wouldn't donate to it.....see how that works?

2) "shitty dated projects" that came out not too long ago, and sold well(enough to be listed #1 on download lists for psn in america and japan)

3) Lab Zero's issues came when the lawsuits to their publisher caused their funding to be cut. It wasnt a problem of Skullgirls not selling well because it sold pretty well for a downloadable fighting game made by an indie development team who had had no real pedigree(beside Mike Z being involved[no offense to the rest of the team]) If you are going to imply that selling well instantly means a team gets to continue working on their game, then you obviously have no idea how game development works. The team had plans to add more characters but the lawsuit to Autumn prevented that, because although the game sold well, the publisher could no longer support the continued development for skullgirls.

The rest of your arguments are nothing but logical fallacies.

What I don't quite understand on their math is the fact they have 8 in-house staff, but none of them do animation, testing, hitboxes or audio? What are their roles then, besides programming and managing the whole process?

Because revenue earned has a 1-to-1 relationship with the quality of a product. Moonrise Kingdom has made ~$68 million whereas Transformers 3 has made ~$1.12 billion. Clearly Transformers 3 is 16.5x better than Moonrise Kingdom.

@drdarkstryfe: That's a very valid point, but I suspect that developers wouldn't do it (and keep doing it) if it wasn't viable for them. We obviously don't know how many units they're moving, but I suspect, as long as the port is easy enough, that doing the Steam version must always make sense. If you put your game in a box on the 360, both Microsoft and the retailer take a cut of that. If you put it on Steam, it's just Valve - I have to assume the margins are better there, right? It probably doesn't move as many units as the 360 version, but the game presumably stays on Steam forever, so you can keep making some money during Steam sales, whereas, unless you're Call of Duty, your game will probably be pulled from store shelves eventually.

@pop: Yup, MikeZ is still very much on the team.

His hair, however, is not. Because he shaved his head live, on-stream, when we broke the $30,000 mark in our breast cancer research/Evo 2013 fundraiser.

@donpixel: So basically, Giant Bomb is worth it because you like it. Well, guess what Skullgirls fans like.

I'm not a fan myself, but it seems reasonable to me. Perspeeectiiiiiiiiive!!

It nice to see them understand how the price would make skeptics and be upfront by showing the breakdown. I appreciate the honesty!

They break it down for you. Whether anything is shaky within the pie chart...some ppl. here might know. I understand ppl. developing loyalties to what appeals to them for various reasons, as apposed as for something raised from the dead or beaten to death. Talk about raised from the dead, I'm about well enough to dl System Shock 2 and pay money for it..still have the disc somewhere.

To come out and say it, I appreciate the adjustment of thinking on the dev's part, as well of the status of the game, modern/basically sound/ struggling.

@capasso: I'm sure they have 1-3 animators creating key frames, and are outsourcing the rest.

I say unlike Kickstarters, Giantbomb is a service and it is a non-speculative product, meaning: It actually exist and its being running properly for some time now.

@patrickklepek: Oh I agree there can be scummy DLC but in general I was more referring to people not realizing that DLC has in most cases a separate budget and development schedule even if in some cases that is in tandem with the main product.