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    Star Trek Online

    Game » consists of 6 releases. Released Feb 02, 2010

    A sci-fi MMORPG developed by Cryptic Studios and Perpetual Entertainment which allows players to fight amongst the ranks of Starfleet, join the Klingon Empire, or rebuild a Romulan homeworld.

    Why is WoW looked down on?

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    ryanwho

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    #51  Edited By ryanwho
    @Babble said:
    " @thehexeditor said:

    " @Babble: Yes. I agree and it seems to be human nature to decide these reasons for such enjoyment. Well, i guess it is unfair to say 'human' nature. Perhaps 'my' nature is more appropriate. Others sadly shared or still share such sentiment. Like I said, I spoiled the MMO experience for myself as many people do. Not blaming the game or the collective community. "

    Yeah I would agree that a good portion of people who play WoW do it obsessively. I just wanted to highlight the fact that WoW, or MMO's in general can be played in a way that's not "destructive". 
     
    @ryanwho said:
    " @Babble said:
    " @thehexeditor said:
    " WoW is looked down on because of the concept of the 'unethical' game experience (coined by Jonathan Blow, creator of Braid.)  "It doesn’t matter if you’re smart or how adept you are, it’s just how much time you sink in. You don’t need to do anything exceptional, you just need to run the treadmill like everyone else."  You can argue that leading raids and moving out of the fire/being quick on heals ETC ETC require 'intelligence' or 'adeptness' but in my years of experience it just takes time and repetition. The carrot-on-the-stick and subtle psychology mixed with social interaction provide for quite the dangerous drug and as WoW is the most popular MMO by far, it gets blamed more. Edit: I stopped playing a couple weeks ago after realizing the huge waste of time it really is. I joined many guilds, did many dungeons and raids, made many many alts and mains, even bought gold (pathetic, I know). Much of the vocal minority/'community' is a cesspool of some really pathetic, angry people. I should know; I was one of them. "
    So WoW gets blamed for people's inability to play a game in moderation? It becomes a treadmill when players decide they will only enjoy themselves if they have the 'best' gear, 'most' gold etc. "
    What is it when its not a treadmill? An unplugged treadmill? A grind in moderation is still a grind. "
    If your sole purpose of playing an MMO is to level up it's always going to be a grind. But if you take a step back, explore the world, play the game with friends, enjoy the story (this includes reading quest text folks!), attend in-game community events (dare I say play on an RP server?), and of course not play for hours on end at a time, I would argue the game is no longer simply a grind.  "
    RPing, honestly, from what I seen and played of the game myself, seems like the only thing I would get as far as why people play. Like, if you're into RPing, I totally get why you're in an MMO because that's something really you can only get in an MMO. Right, its cheaper than going out and making civil war/colonist costumes by hand and practicing an accent. So I get that, if you're into that. I just don't get the other people(which I imagine make up the majority of the playerbase).
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    MAN_FLANNEL

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    #52  Edited By MAN_FLANNEL

    Kid still doesn't get it.  Oh well, no point in trying to make a dog meow. 

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    Renahzor

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    #53  Edited By Renahzor

    Haha, I love all the finger pointing and name calling.  
     
    I played WoW for a VERY long time, from release till about 9-10 months ago.  I, personally, love the argument that WoW takes no skill and makes you suck at games.  I mean, we all know that games have to be exceedingly hard to be considered valid to the format, no?  The difficulty inherent in MW2 snigle player, or Uncharted, or batman, those are TRULY what makes them good games, not the content or the story or the exposition.  Not only that but I've done the bleeding edge raid content thing in wow, I've done the arena grind, I know several personal friends who are every-season gladiators.  Obviously it takes no skill at all, since the same people keep getting the top ranks and beating the newest content first, right?  It may be easy in a "this isn't Dragon age style RPG" way, but it is difficult in its own ways if you choose to find them.
     
    It's very hard to criticize WoW as a bad game.  There are elements that some people wont like, and there are people who will never enjoy that format of game.  However, subscriber numbers do not lie, and there's a reason it is successful.  You could say it's because they appeal to the lowest common dollar, or because its just so easy, or because the however many millions of people playing are just stupid, skill-less hacks that cant play other games.  If you have any sense of game design at all and take an objective look, you'll know why WoW is doing very well, and why it will be very hard to compete directly with it for many many years to come (perhaps until WoW2 or some other Blizz creation).  The things wow does well far far outweigh any other concerns for most people:
     
    -New player experience is *extremely* refined, and very addictive.
    -Character advancement is diverse, interesting, and meaningful.  People love to improve their characters via loot and leveling.
    -Servers are incredibly stable for a game of its size and sub numbers.
    -Areas are very diverse, keeping things fresh every few levels and urging people to explore new zones.  
    -Grouping, especially now, is seamless and quick, and gets the social aspect of the game into player's minds early on.
     
    I could make the list much longer.  I found plenty of challenge in leading a family/friends oriented small guild into 40 man raiding, and onward into expansion content.  I had enough difficulty in certain spots of bleeding edge raiding (AQ40 Twin emps, Gruul, Vaelestraz, etc were not EASY to start with).  Despite now being incredibly bored of WoW, I still consider it a VERY good game, and find myself many times wishing for elements of wow in some other games.  It blended Social gaming, Loot based advancement, and game mechanics in a way that is still very very good.  Some day long in the future, the WoW servers will finally turn off the lights.  Then the people who hate it can have their time basking in their own greatness of how they told everyone how bad it was.  As it is, I think its a good game, and a good example of where MMO tech has come in the last 5, 10, or even 15 years.  
     
    Bash it for uninspiring quests, maybe.  Or for its cartoonish art direction which allows millions to play on systems years old with respectable performance.  Or for poor end game progression design.  All the while, what *I* remember from WoW, is how much FUN it was, and how good it felt back in the day to finally take down Neferian.  Even if it wasn't that hard(so you say), I don't think I've felt as accomplished in any game before or since.  WoW is fun, addicting, popular, and challenging for millions of people.  I suppose thats why people hate it?

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    ryanwho

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    #54  Edited By ryanwho
    @MAN_FLANNEL said:
    " Kid still doesn't get it.  Oh well, no point in trying to make a dog meow.  "
    I clearly don't, every other reason he gave can be better accomplished in a different venue. When you start talking about the WoW story, yeah, that's when I know I'll never get it.
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    Coombs

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    #55  Edited By Coombs

    For the same reason Crack is looked down on,
    It's addictive, 
    It destroys peoples relationships,
    And it has a negative impact on both the Mind and Body, of anyone who plays it.
    (Mind- Barrens chat is harmful...   Body- Sitting for 12 hours a day and sleeping 2 is bad for you)
     
    I am an ex-WoW player, I have quit and restarted several times,
    But I really think I'm done with it now,
    It's a damn time vortex, It just fucking steals it.
    Huge amounts of it......

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    MAN_FLANNEL

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    #56  Edited By MAN_FLANNEL
    @ryanwho said:
    " @MAN_FLANNEL said:
    " Kid still doesn't get it.  Oh well, no point in trying to make a dog meow.  "
    I clearly don't, every other reason he gave can be better accomplished in a different venue. When you start talking about the WoW story, yeah, that's when I know I'll never get it. "
    Lol, I was talking about that Buzz guy.  I haven't even read what you wrote.
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    ryanwho

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    #57  Edited By ryanwho
    @Renahzor said:
    " Haha, I love all the finger pointing and name calling.    I played WoW for a VERY long time, from release till about 9-10 months ago.  I, personally, love the argument that WoW takes no skill and makes you suck at games.  I mean, we all know that games have to be exceedingly hard to be considered valid to the format, no?  The difficulty inherent in MW2 snigle player, or Uncharted, or batman, those are TRULY what makes them good games, not the content or the story or the exposition.   "
    Those absolutely are a factor. Take those away and add a thousand hours and you'd have a pretty impotent game. Thing is, MW2 multiplayer and Uncharted 2 multiplayer, for a point of reference, absolutely require more skill than an MMO. And they look better and they're more social because you're talking, not typing. No, skill isn't everything, but its something. I don't see how your example really holds water. Even if you mention a game that doesn't require much skill, that game has a series of other factors that aren't found or aren't possible in an MMO. Tight narrative, expert pacing, incredible ambience, character development, compelling overarching story. Im sure all these things are possible in an MMO, just hasn't happened yet. Im not opposed to MMO the idea, just the execution thus far.
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    Renahzor

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    #58  Edited By Renahzor
    @ryanwho said:
    " @Renahzor said:
    " Haha, I love all the finger pointing and name calling.    I played WoW for a VERY long time, from release till about 9-10 months ago.  I, personally, love the argument that WoW takes no skill and makes you suck at games.  I mean, we all know that games have to be exceedingly hard to be considered valid to the format, no?  The difficulty inherent in MW2 snigle player, or Uncharted, or batman, those are TRULY what makes them good games, not the content or the story or the exposition.   "
    Those absolutely are a factor. Take those away and add a thousand hours and you'd have a pretty impotent game. Thing is, MW2 multiplayer and Uncharted 2 multiplayer, for a point of reference, absolutely require more skill than an MMO. And they look better and they're more social because you're talking, not typing. No, skill isn't everything, but its something. I don't see how your example really holds water. Even if you mention a game that doesn't require much skill, that game has a series of other factors that aren't found or aren't possible in an MMO. Tight narrative, expert pacing, incredible ambience, character development, compelling overarching story. Im sure all these things are possible in an MMO, just hasn't happened yet. Im not opposed to MMO the idea, just the execution thus far. "
     
    Saying its more social because you're talking and not typing is like sticking your head in the sand.  I've played countless hours of MW2 multiplayer and never once said a word to anyone except my one friend in private chat because those types of games attract the worst type of internet fuckwad.  And I've spent hundreds of hours talking on VOIP services in every MMO i've played(albeit, also with its share of internet fuckwads).  And you illustrate my point expertly.  Even if I mention a game that doesnt require much skill (WoW) there are many other factors that make it what it is.  I have never been as engrossed or invested in a game as I was with WoW.  I would say the Ambiance, pacing, and overall story of wow are done VERY well for the MMO medium.  Character development and narrative not so much.  But to say simply because WoW isnt challenging in some respects (I don't think it was you who did anyhow) is ignoring ALL the reasons why WoW is and will continue to be(for the forseeable future) the most successful MMO on the market.  Not only that, but it *is* challenging in some respects, just depends what you're doing.
     
    And I'd hope we can put the "they look better" argument to rest.  WoW is now running on an old engine, and will always show its age.  It still holds up decently and was a specific decision to keep system reqs down.  I've layed much better looking MMOs that just dont feel as good as wow.  
     
    Like most, Im looking forward to SW:ToR to see if bioware can pull off something great that can change the MMO genre.  I have high hopes, but I suspect it will be a lot like WoW in the end, and TBH, thats not entirely terrible. 
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    sparky_buzzsaw

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    #59  Edited By sparky_buzzsaw
    @thehexeditor:
    I can understand that.  There are certain times when playing any MMORPG that I feel frustrated with either the user base or the game's mechanics.  But I've got those certain moments of cynicism towards pretty much any aspect of society.  To put it bluntly, there are always going to be the dumb assholes in any group.  I can't let it spoil my fun, or else I'd go crazy.  And that really applies to games, too, because there are a lot of negative aspects about putting idiots in front of a monitor and a keyboard (or given a headset and a controller).  I say, you've got to lead by example, learn to ignore the crap people put out there, and just have fun on your own terms.  For the most part, I can accomplish that with Lord of the Rings Online and many other online-enabled games. 
     
    To be fair, though, I do tend to gripe a bit about some of the mid-level content in LOTRO.  If there were more variety to the leveling experience, I think it would go a long way towards making any MMORPG appealing.  Until we break free of those few basic fetch or kill X beasties-styled quests, though, I'm probably always going to hit that lull halfway through the levels.
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    MAST

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    #60  Edited By MAST

    Same reason there are people that say Uncharted 2 sucks, and is the worst game in history...  As others have said, people think it's cool to be different, and dislike something that's popular. To go against the mainstream. They feel that it makes them superior.
     
    Albeit, there are some valid complaints you could level against WoW, and a person is also not wrong if they say "It's just not my thing." However, you must acknowledge that overall, WoW is the most well done, most supported game in MMO history. People that throw out sensational comments like "It's the worst MMO every created" are just trying to get attention. They are flat out wrong. A reasonable person will acknowledge that there are more "good" things about WoW then "bad." Even if they don't personally like WoW, or possibly MMO's in general.

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    MAST

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    #61  Edited By MAST
    @thehexeditor said:
    " WoW is looked down on because of the concept of the 'unethical' game experience (coined by Jonathan Blow, creator of Braid.)  "It doesn’t matter if you’re smart or how adept you are, it’s just how much time you sink in. You don’t need to do anything exceptional, you just need to run the treadmill like everyone else."
    Who decides what's an "ethical" game experience? A pompous, artistic game maker like Jonathan "Blowhard" Blow? Some people really like that "carrot-on-a-stick" type gameplay. The constant quest for new loot. Hell, that's why games like Diablo and Torchlight are so popular. WoW's formula isn't really any different then those games, yet Diablo-esque games are hailed, while WoW is hated on. There are a lot of people out there that like a repetitive game experience. They like the familiar. Some spend all day dealing with the unexpected, and the stressful. So coming home to a game like WoW is comforting and relaxing for them.
    You coffee house, artistic types can have your "Braid" games, (Which I actually thought was incredibly easy. Blew through it in 3 hours, and after just thought to myself "Huh, glad I bought this on Steam for 2 bucks) and go on, and on about how WoW is for "dumb" people. But there is no reason why games like WoW can't also exist. Everyone should be able to find a game they enjoy, and for a lot of people, more often then not that game is WoW.
     
    Fact of the matter is, if 10-15 million people say WoW is great, and only a handful hate on it. Then the haters are wrong. WoW's a success. Deal with it. You can hate it all you want, that doesn't change anything. You are outnumbered by the people that like it. It's also a proven fact that "haters" are always the loudest of the bunch. Louder the the people that like something. So really, it probably just seems like WoW gets a lot of hate. When in reality, for every one person that gets on a forum to hate on WoW, and say it's the worst thing ever, there's about a dozen people happily playing it.
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    MrKlorox

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    #63  Edited By MrKlorox

    Er... because WOW is the most popular MMO ever and thereby considered the best by mass. And people playing ANY OTHER MMO (not just STO) will want to convince themselves and others that they aren't wasting money on the wrong MMO. Much like hardcore console fanboyism, except there isn't so much of a clear economical winner in that battle.
     
    Then there's the type who want a more action oriented experience and choose STO over WOW because of this. Then there's the Sci-Fi or Star Trek buff who has his preferred genre.
     
    Though Jonathan Blow makes an excellent about the ethics of it.

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