No, its not. Don't be daft.

Yeah, agree with this guy. Saying an opinion of whether it's worth the money is different than an opinion on whether the game is good or not are not different things. Heck if everything were free, we wouldn't need reviews for anything. I mean you can look at a review as "grading" a game, and maybe that doesn't take price into account, but as a gamer you look at that grade and get an idea of what you're going to get for your money. The general consensus is Star Trek is not worth the money.

So if it were free, should you play it? Why not? I invested $2 in it at Red Box...Tonight will determine whether I cut my losses at $2 and return it tomorrow, or keep it longer. Based on the reviews I don't want to spend more than $10-15 on this.

Well watching the quick look to this game led to me watching entirely too much Star Trek after never seeing it. I guess it wasn't the game though since I've been wanting to start for a while.

It is actually two different things. Problem is there are people who're crazy and don't believe that and see reviews as "You should think this is great" or "You should think this is bad." It's crazy thinking. Reviews are buyer's guides yes but they aren't rule books.

What?! Of course it is. It's my opinion that is worth to go to the movie theater to watch a Tarantino movie. That's different from my opinion of Django Unchained. They are intertwined, they are connected, sure. But, it's two different things.

@winternet: I never said they were good. I was just saying that in my opinion that there's no such thing as a truly bad game unless its unplayable. Your comparison to movies and music is poor. I think food would have been a better comparison. If I can't eat something because its inedible then how am I supposed to enjoy it? Obviously there is the "gourmet" style of food that people pay top dollar to get and then there's fast food that is considerably cheaper quality food, but it still gets the job done. The same could be said for video games. The video game is there to entertain me and yeah, obviously there's going to be the best of the best out there that are considerably more palatable then other games, but if I need something that I can just turn on and be visually pleased with what I'm doing without any hiccups, then it is doing its job well as a video game.

Plus I think it's more of an opinion of what "good" really is. I think most comedy movies are stupid and country music is pretty atrocious. Those things to me are things that I can't watch or listen to. I'm sure other people enjoy them though.

@winternet: @sethphotopoulos: If you don't think the opinion "I think this is worth putting money down on or not" is related to "I think this is a quality product", then you have a few screws loose. If you don't think Django Unchained is worth going to see, then its going to be closely related to your opinion on the quality of the film.

@whitestripes09: How can you say that? Are you saying that Bomberman: Act Zero is not a bad game? It doesn't make any sense. Even taking your silly "video game is there to entertain me" seriously, there are countless boring games that are playable. Are those not bad as well?

@turambar: I'm just going to quote myself, since you failed to read it.

@winternet: That's just like your opinion man... What you think is bad is going to be different to what I think is bad.

No it's pretty boned. I like underdog/underperforming/"bad" games too.

This one is preeeetty boned.

You know what I believe would make it better? A dedicated "good job" button. Not enough positive encouragement from Kirk and Spock if you ask me.

Or maybe I've been playing too much Resident Evil 5 and 6 again.

@turambar But, let me give you a better example of what I'm trying to say. I think it's worth to go to the theater and watch Zero Dark Thirty. I don't think Zero Dark Thirty is a good movie. I think it's worth seeing, because the last half an hour is pretty good. I think the rest 2 hours of the movie are uninspired and mediocre. Is it a good movie? I don't think so. But, I think that it's worth seeing, because of that last half an hour.

@whitestripes09: Yes, opinions can differ, but inside what is reasonable. Your opinion is unreasonable.

If this was a $15 downloadable, I'd say it's a pretty darn nice promotional game for the new movie. I could easily forgive a lot of its "meh"-ness if it wasn't being sold as a full $60 title. At that price, it has to be judged that way, and it is found severely lacking.

If it goes down to $15 tomorrow, then we'll talk about whether its flawed experience is something you can at least draw some enjoyment out of for the price.

So your decision to watch Zero Dark Thirty is still based heavily on your opinion of the quality of the movie. If the last 30 minutes was not good, you would not feel it worth watching. And if the last 30 minutes was not good, your opinion of the movie would be worse for it. The two are not identical, but latter has a close and direct impact on the former.

So, to bring it back around, how is video game reviews going to shape your opinion on whether a game is worth buying without directly impacting your opinion on whether a game is good or not, before you buy it? If Jeff says "X game is not good" in a review, what purpose does it serve other than to cause you to lean towards considering the game to be not good, before having played it first hand?

How successful is it at causing such shifts in opinion? Now that is actually an entirely unrelated topic, but its purpose is clear.

Can you see the contradiction? How can I decide to watch a movie based on my opinion of said movie, if I haven't watched it yet? A review is there to help you make a decision, but not make an opinion. I read reviews and those reviews helped me make the decision to go and watch Zero Dark Thirty. After I watched the movie I created my opinion about the movie. And the review is still playing its part here, no doubt. It's someone's opinion clashing with mine. And that is helping shape my opinion, but it's not the center piece. It's working on something that is already there. And after this I can elaborate my opinion "ZDT is worth watching, because of the last half an hour" which will then help other people make their decisions.

So, bottom line, there are decisions and opinions. And your opinion about something being worth experienced and your opinion about the quality of that something are two different entities, connected and related, sure, but still two separate opinions.

If you decide to watch a movie, it is your opinion that the movie is potentially of a quality that renders it worth watching. If it is your opinion that a movie has no redeeming qualities, then it will be your decision to not watch it. Decisions are not made independent of a personal value judgement, also known as an opinion.

And how do you form such opinions before having watched it? Reviews.

It's all constants and variables.

Reviewer had the experience that the reviewer had. Yours was different. Get over it. This site makes it explicitly clear that they don't do things objectively. It's all about what they actually felt playing the game. Not what they expect you to feel.

Can we at least agree that this sentence is kinda silly? :)

That is not an opinion. I'm not that educated in the English language, so I may not be able to express myself all that well, but this is definitely not an opinion. It's a preconceived notion. It's an educated guess. It's a reasoning. I read these positive reviews so I am going to watch this movie. This is my reasoning. The reviews were pretty good, so I bet that this movie is good. You're making an educated guess. You read the reviews, so you have already some notions about the movie before you watch it. But you don't have an opinion about the movie. Your opinion after the movie may line up with these educated guesses and these preconceived notions, but it's still two separate beasts.

Even if its "not that bad" why would anyone want to waste their time or money on a mediocre version of what is ostensibly a gears clone in many respects when there is plenty of gears out there including Judgement which... is ya know... and actual gears game.

Apparently there are people out there that think unless the game is so broken that it's actually unplayable, then it's worth playing.

Well, they must have more time than I then.

And more money.

Preconceived notion, educated guess (based on subjective information), a reasoning (based on subjective factors), those are all opinions. Just to make sure we're on the same page, here's Webster's definition for the term.

"a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter."

Opinions are not somehow limited to only what comes after a personal experience, it is all encompassing in terms how you feel about something.

I think the "it has problems but most things do" argument gets used to gloss over a lot of stuff. The real questions are how big are those problems and how many of them are there? And it looks like Star Trek has a lot more major problems than most other games we see coming out. When you're someone who likes the game more than most and even you think it would start being reasonable to buy it at a third of what they're asking, it's probably boned.

I feel like this entire topic is people trying to tell someone that their opinion is worthless. Just another day on the Internet, it seems.

@quarters: That is your opinion, and you are entitled to it. Even if it is wrong.

This thread is just going in circles. And none of it makes any sense!

I'm not surprised, really. It looked relatively poor in the quick look, but you could also see where the game could have been good had things gone differently. That space station setpiece was a pretty cool concept, at least.

I'm not interested enough to buy it, even at a much reduced price, but I could see where someone else could enjoy it if they were interested and picked it up for the right price.

So uh, I got to the end of the game tonight. And, well. Uh. Its pretty damn bad. I don't mean the ending, I haven't seen that yet. I mean the overall game. Man, does it get bad. It takes a turn directly south about half way in, and just keeps picking up speed of suck. I was getting angry with the game because I was having to restart levels over and over so many times.

The bugs really jump out and start piling up. I found myself walking in space more than a few times. I walked through a wall, and into space. I was able to walk back through the wall like nothing happened. But then all the enemies became like this wall. And all shots went threw them. And most of you know you can clip right through Spock as seen in the quick look. Well something happened around this point also and if I walked into him, he would run away to the other side of the level, and do nothing. I could not command him, and he would not return until I finished the level. He would not heal me, he would not help with co-op doors. Well he did, but he wasn't there. It was very confusing. Also he started doing things on his own. Like not taking the path I took, and getting down'd. And I would have to run around and try to find where the hell he went so I could revive him, as to avoid restarting the level. He also felt the need many times to not revive me while I was down'd. He would just stand next to me, saying over and over "you look injured Captain", until I bled out. You son of a bitch Spock.

There are also platforming sequences where you have to make running jumps and grab a ledge. I would do this, and fall through ledge and get stuck or I would bounce of it like it punched me and I would fall to me death. Or if I didn't die form the fall, I would be down'd and Spock would jump down to "save me", killing himself. Enemies I would stealth kill, would not die. They went through the motion and the action. But they would then stand back up and keep on their patrol. And they would not fire their weapons anymore. But good ole Spock would keep shooting at them. There is also a part where you have to take turns teleporting each other around a level to get to your blocked destination. More than a few times while doing this, I would be teleported into the floor. I also had issues where I would be walking in an area with no enemies, or mines and an explosion would go off, and I would die. Reload and do the same area again, no explosion. You also get to a point where going in and out of crouched tunnels happens for most of the level. And when you would exit the tunnels, the controls would lock and you would walk back and the right for about 10 seconds. And then even after you gained control to move around the camera would lock on that position, so you would be walking away from it. And it would not reset until you left view, if at all.

Also Spock is invisible to the other AI. He doesn't exist apparently. He can just keep walking up to them and threw them all day and they don't react. You also have these parts where to continue the story both of you have to be in a room to start a cut scene. Well Spock would not enter the room. He would stand at the door way, but never enter. I would have to run around and try to coax him in. And then once I did, it wouldn't trigger. I would have to leave the area, and in some cases reload a check point and play a part of the level over again. Why did I even bother.

And I am leaving out some other things, I just don't want to sit here and continue to dump on the game. But man. I need to find a way to record this stuff. The bugs start happening at the same time and it gets all sorts of goofy. I had to restart one level 20+ times. Took me 3 hours. After that I was not sure I even wanted to finish the game.

So I apologize for saying this game was not that bad. It was pretty decent for the first few hours, about the first third of the game. And then someone flipped a switch and it all just went to shit.

I have honestly never had this many bugs/glitches/issues with a game before. Not even with a Bethesda game. So I retract that statement about it being a good $20 game. This game is not even a good $1 game. Alex should have given thins NO starts.

Well, we're just not going anywhere with this. Now we're into semantics and grammar. And if we're going there, at least let's use the Oxford Dictionary ;)

guess - "to try and give an answer or make a judgement about sth without being sure of all the facts. To suppose that sth is true or likely"

preconceived - "formed before you have enough information or experience of sth"

opinion - "your feelings or thoughts about sb/sth, rather than a fact"

You want to be simplistic, black&white, 1&0s, and put everything in the same basket? You go right ahead. You wanna tell me that "This game is good because the reviews are good" is a valid opinion? You go right ahead. I can't fathom someone caring about that opinion one bit, but ok. You're not harming yourself or the others around you so you are free to have your opinions.

But, hey, what the heck, another example. It's my opinion that your opinions are shitty. Now, if you asked me what my opinion about your opinions was, before I experienced them, before I got in contact with them, I would have to answer "I don't have an opinion. I haven't seen your opinions so how could I have an opinion about them?". If you, however, kept pressing me to make an opinion I would have to say "Well, I can guess. Is that ok? In that case, I guess that your opinions are shitty, because you have an Anime avatar" So, do you think that's a valid opinion? Well thought and realized and informed opinion? Because, I don't think so. I think that's as shitty as opinions can be. So much so, that I don't consider calling that an opinion. It's an uneducated guess. It's a preconceived notion that I have against Anime. It's not an opinion, not in my book.

I'm just gonna say that based on the number of reviews out there and the gameplay I have seen, it is not something I want to spend any money or time playing. Sorry if that makes me a mindless drone, but surely that's what reviews and Quick Looks are for?

Not trying to take away from your enjoyment however. I'm happy you managed to find fun in what so many others have deemed terrible

Well this example is just dumb. "Valid Opinion" is not a judgement on whether something is an opinion or not, but rather on whether an opinion is worth listening to or not. There are nuances there in the language that you don't seem to be picking up.

The bottom line is this: an opinion does not need to be based on fact, experience, or proper reasoning. Here's oxford's actual definitions of the terms without alterations that you've made, since we're on that path now.

Opinion: a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge

preconceived: (of an idea or opinion) formed before having the evidence for its truth or usefulness.

Isn't the whole point of a review to evaluate the quality of the game with the price it's selling at? It's a 60 dollar game, and games outlets reviewed it as a 60 dollar game.

I personally think game reviews should be about the game itself, independent of its price. How it plays, whether it's broken, the writing etc. Whether the game is worth its MSRP should be something the reader / consumer should judge for themselves: putting "fans of the genre / franchise will enjoy this game" in a review is such a terrible cop-out.

What is your point? That I went to get a definition and then changed it? I mean, what would I achieved by doing that? I thought we were trying to have a reasonable discussion here, with the bullshit cut to the minimum, but I guess that's not the case.

And you're still not going anywhere with this. You want to have shitty opinions? Like I said, go right ahead. You are free to do so. I'm not going to dispute that. I thought I already established this.

What, are you planning to sexually assault him?

Nope, luckily enough your fantasies aren't mine.

"Playable"

"Somewhat fun"

Put it on the back of the box!

Well, yeah. Is there another reason why the oxford dictionary definition I c/ped is actually different from yours?

Further, what you were disputing from the beginning was whether shitty opinions should be considered opinions at all, not one's right to have shitty opinions. Unless of course, you'd like to make an argument out of the latter now.

@turambar: Uhh, different versions of oxford dictionaries? Ever heard of that? But, following your logic wouldn't I also be able to question the definition you include? But, hey, whatever.

What we were discussing was hindering by the fact that you want to call everything that is not a fact, an opinion. And I can't stop you from doing that.

Sure, you can question the definition I include, and I'd give you oxforddictionaries.com, U.S. Eng, as my source.

Also, I'm not sure if you're being purposefully daft at this point, as the definition of opinion is not vague, and even the one you provided has clear boundaries on it.

Is there a point you want to make or can we just stop?

That your definition of "opinion" is wholly insufficient. Though that point has been made a good 3 exchanges back.

@turambar: You're talking about this definition? opinion - "your feelings or thoughts about sb/sth, rather than a fact"

No, I'm talking about your interpretation of it that keeps it from being an umbrella term that also includes the likes of notions, conceptions, and personal analysis and judgement based on the experiences of others.

But, I already explained this. You want to be simplistic and call all of that, opinions. I don't. When I use the word opinion, I'm referring to something that is well realized, informed and though-out. For the rest, I use the words like notions, guesses, preconceptions and all that jazz. We've been over this.

Can I get this straight? You guys are arguing about whether or not a value judgement based on review(s) of a game is considered an opinion?

I know. You've mentioned that many times. You're also wrong based on the definitions of the words.

Duuuude. I mean, duuuuuuuuuuuuuude.

I'll ask again: "Is there a point you want to make or can we just stop?"