First of all i am speaking in terms of gameplay. After watching all the GW2 info, and now the WoW Talent 2.0 info it seems SW: TOR is sticking to an old system that is being abandoned game after game. To see a game like WoW completely rebuild their talent system in the magnitude of Mists of Pandaria, it’s never more evident that the Classic WoW model is out of date in need for change. Watching GW2 videos and Pandaria Videos all these changes in gameplay make sense, seem refined and are really what mmo's need. Now obviously GW2 is ahead of the pack, but i assume Project Titan is the result of these WoW changes (as well as its testing ground). Also it’s finally nice to see Blizzard admit its multiple mistakes, and finally try to seriously balance instead of Band-Aid.

So where does that leave SW: TOR? Yes i understand SW: TOR is heavy on story, but gameplay is the core for the hundreds of hours people will be spending in these games. Yes there's ships, companions, offline professions, player stories, but that core of skills and attributes hasn't really been altered in a great degree. I keep reading about how Bioware claims it’s sticking to "what works", but vastly improving upon its multiple faults. This latest change by blizzard shows that "what works" isn't true any more, that there is a lack of flexibility in this classic talent model. I wouldn't be surprised if this increase in talent flexibility translates to class flexibility in terms of abandoning the Trinity in Project Titan to a similar degree as GW2 has. Yes SW: TOR is flexing the Trinity, but by simply allowing more classes to be healers or tanks (My impression form the current info available).

So in the end this is still $TAR WAR$: Cash Cow's Revenge, and will make allot of money based on that fact. Although i think the core MMO players who started off WoW, GW, Everquest, will be moving on to games like GW2, (Can’t think of anything else.... Tera? Project Titan?), while the larger bases will stay with the familiar between WoW and SW: TOR slowly trickling into the newer generation of MMO's. The whole topple WoW has always been a joke, since people forget that people don't like change. I just found it interesting that Blizzard has final started to hint at a need to evolve, not simply iterate upon the classic building blocks.

It's funny because you use a dollar sign instead of an S in Star Wars.

I plan on getting it but not at launch. I need a gaming rig, sadly my iMac cannot play most of the games coming out today.

I fail to see how WoW changing the talent system they are using(Dumbing it down quite astronomically infact) has any affect on how the combat plays.

As long as the story is good I will most likely enjoy it.

I'm afraid I don't see the point of the argument. Just because a system for WOW changes, does not make that system irrelevant and unusable. It's still tried and true. Just because there is something new out there does not make everything else thats been used before bad. Gaming is built upon using systems that work over and over again. Also, although you do mention it in your post, anyone playing this game for the standard MMO gameplay alone should not be buying this game. I'm buying it because I'm interested in everything else it has to offer.

@CL60: I don't think they're dumbing it down at all, its more like they're providing more cookie cutter builds then simply 1 per tree. The only way this is being dumbed down is that you no longer have to copy paste a build off elitist jerks, and well if people couldn't do that originally then they have larger problems. It seems to be focusing more on actual play style/skill then rotation, while choosing abilities that will compliment.

@joshth: To that I'd respond with Tomb Raider Vs. Uncharted. TB works till this day, but its still obsolete when compared with Uncharted. I think most people would say TB is irrelevant when compared to Uncharted.

Mists of Pandaria wont come out until long after SW:TOR launches so... theres that.

TOR was never aiming to reinvent the wheel when it came to gameplay anyway, its most touted feature is the focused narrative it gives each class and thats what most people anticipating the game are looking forward to.

lol no

@joshth said:

I'm afraid I don't see the point of the argument. Just because a system for WOW changes, does not make that system irrelevant and unusable. It's still tried and true. Just because there is something new out there does not make everything else thats been used before bad. Gaming is built upon using systems that work over and over again. Also, although you do mention it in your post, anyone playing this game for the standard MMO gameplay alone should not be buying this game. I'm buying it because I'm interested in everything else it has to offer.

Id like to hear more on that front. I havent been keeping close tabs on TOR, but are you just talking about the story elements?

Gameplay wasn't the main reason why I went into WoW, and it's certainly not why I go into a Bioware game.

@fullmetal5550 said:

As long as the story is good I will most likely enjoy it.

Thats what I am in for. Played both KOTOR 1 and 2. Long time bioware fan can't wait to see how the story pans out.

@CL60: Agreed.

I played the closed beta the other week, it actually changed my mind a bit on the game.  I really do like the story telling and voice acting ( at least for the Sith Warrior storyline ).  It's a change of pace from regular fetch quest mmo's... at least the quests have actual conversations.  Whether they'll be signficant down the line, i don't know but I plan to find out when the game is released.

@BionicRadd: I'm mainly reffering to the story elements, yes. The usual trappings that come with a bioware game, that have never really been seen before in an MMO. Narrative backrounds for each class, morality dececions, full voice acting, and companions. All of these things sound interesting to me, and would take an MMO that I would normally be sorta "meh" about, to being generally excited for.

I see Giant Bomb hasn't stopped doing the whole "SWTOR will be bad, and I know because it hasn't come out yet" thing.

Baseless opinions! On my internets! Yeah, yeah, I know.

I'll be waiting for Kotor 3...this game has nothing I want.

@rebgav said:

@senorfuzzeh said:

@fullmetal5550 said:

As long as the story is good I will most likely enjoy it.

Thats what I am in for. Played both KOTOR 1 and 2. Long time bioware fan can't wait to see how the story pans out.

Then read a god damn book, don't throw away $60 plus a monthly fee for a glorified fan-fiction dress-up sim.

If you obviously dont like the game why are you even on this forum unless you feel like just basing peoples opinions. Go screw yourself.

the problem with this topic is that it assumes WOW somehow dictates what is or isnt current. The new talent system they are implementing sounds fucking godawful, as was the previous one with less talents.

The SWTOR beta was fun to play. That is all.

This is all from the assumption that WoWs new talent system is a good system?

@OP: Your avatar looks like someone licking a dogs penis.

@rebgav said:

@Lady_of_the_patriots said:

@rebgav said:

@senorfuzzeh said:

@fullmetal5550 said:

As long as the story is good I will most likely enjoy it.

Thats what I am in for. Played both KOTOR 1 and 2. Long time bioware fan can't wait to see how the story pans out.

Then read a god damn book, don't throw away $60 plus a monthly fee for a glorified fan-fiction dress-up sim.

If you obviously dont like the game why are you even on this forum unless you feel like just basing peoples opinions. Go screw yourself.

I'm serious, there are Star Wars books written by the same Bioware writer responsible for KOTOR and now the MMO. If all people want is the story why support an expensive videogame when there are better, cheaper options to get a direct hit of story. Full retail price plus a monthly fee is a ridiculous commitment to make if you don't actually care about the quality of the game.

Because some forms of alternate media than books are more entertaining to some? I love stories but I will always argue that the LOTRO are more enjoyable as films then the novels. Sometimes people want to act out the story or watch it rather than read text on paper.

i think using a dollar sign instead of an s to indicate that you think someone is greedy is possibly the least clever thing in the entire universe.

Game's gonna flop. Hopefully Bioware gets dropped from EA and buys itself back Harmonix style.

I think they started too late or took a little too long with TOR. I could see it doing really well if it came out 2 or 3 years ago, when Age of Conan and Warhammer were coming out, but now it seems like upcoming MMOs are evolving alot, where TOR seems like it is just a basic WoW clone. The story stuff looks decent, but I lost interest after a few days.

The weird outright hate for this game still baffles me.

@Zzzleepy said:

The weird outright hate for this game still baffles me.

I don't understand it, either.

But, Lord of the Rings Online and other MMO's are still going strong on that concept (or even older ones).
Why would a newly produced MMO that looks to do everything as right as WoW once did have a hard time if there's games out there with less hype, less name and less then awesome controls that still embrace the 'old' game play?

@TaliciaDragonsong said:

But, Lord of the Rings Online and other MMO's are still going strong on that concept (or even older ones). Why would a newly produced MMO that looks to do everything as right as WoW once did have a hard time if there's games out there with less hype, less name and less then awesome controls still embrace the 'old' game play?

This is a brilliant point. Plus, just because Blizzard is changing World of Warcraft to a new talent system and announcing other updates doesn't mean the "old" style of WoW isn't still viable. Millions upon millions of subscribers attest that it really is, even after all these years.

I was looking forward to this game as much as anyone. Hell, I created this page within seconds of the official name being announced as I sat in front of my computer waiting for the press conference. Now, I'm going to wait and see...primarily because I don't have time to commit to an MMO, but also because SWTOR has a lot of hype to live up to. If it's even half as good as Bioware claims it's going to be, the game will be a success...at least financially. I'm still waiting it out.

the problem with this topic is that it assumes WOW somehow dictates what is or isnt current. The new talent system they are implementing sounds fucking godawful, as was the previous one with less talents.

If they need to change it, they will. They've invested too much money in the content to worry about silly systems like a talent system.

@Jack268 said:

@Rhaknar said:

the problem with this topic is that it assumes WOW somehow dictates what is or isnt current. The new talent system they are implementing sounds fucking godawful, as was the previous one with less talents.

I think the new system will be fine as long as they keep the abilities balanced so that people actually can choose their own path instead of following the newest elitistjerks.com guide.

that will never happen no matter what blizzard says right now, they always spew the same shit before every expansion how its changing and becoming less cookie cutter. And this is coming from someone that has played it since launch, and will most likely play Pandaria

When numbers are crunched, like it or not there is always going to be the 'best build' in Warcraft. I for one am extremely excited about SWTOR after seeing it at Eurogamer.

@joshth said:

@BionicRadd: I'm mainly reffering to the story elements, yes. The usual trappings that come with a bioware game, that have never really been seen before in an MMO. Narrative backrounds for each class, morality dececions, full voice acting, and companions. All of these things sound interesting to me, and would take an MMO that I would normally be sorta "meh" about, to being generally excited for.

While I agree, i can't help but wonder how much longevity this game will have. Ill probably give it a whirl when it offers up a trial, though.

@courtney12490 said:

@Zzzleepy said:

The weird outright hate for this game still baffles me.

I don't understand it, either.

Me neither. But it seems the vast majority of people that played the recent beta build have said it's great, and they were surprised.

In my opinion, the gameplay in MMO's has been outdated for years. Just because WoW is introducing a class that leans heavily in the direction of what Guild Wars is doing, doesn't mean it's just now that the gameplay is becoming dated.

But as others have said, many people still like this gameplay style (for whatever reason) and many will play the game for the story aspects alone. If you don't like it, ignore it. I certainly will be, and I'm a huge Star Wars fan.

the problem with this topic is that it assumes WOW somehow dictates what is or isnt current. The new talent system they are implementing sounds fucking godawful, as was the previous one with less talents.

@rebgav said:

@Lady_of_the_patriots said:

@rebgav said:

@senorfuzzeh said:

@fullmetal5550 said:

As long as the story is good I will most likely enjoy it.

Thats what I am in for. Played both KOTOR 1 and 2. Long time bioware fan can't wait to see how the story pans out.

Then read a god damn book, don't throw away $60 plus a monthly fee for a glorified fan-fiction dress-up sim.

If you obviously dont like the game why are you even on this forum unless you feel like just basing peoples opinions. Go screw yourself.

I'm serious, there are Star Wars books written by the same Bioware writer responsible for KOTOR and now the MMO. If all people want is the story why support an expensive videogame when there are better, cheaper options to get a direct hit of story. Full retail price plus a monthly fee is a ridiculous commitment to make if you don't actually care about the quality of the game.

Because some forms of alternate media than books are more entertaining to some? I love stories but I will always argue that the LOTRO are more enjoyable as films then the novels. Sometimes people want to act out the story or watch it rather than read text on paper.

Ok, let me be the first (?) one to admit I have an irrational hate for this game, while having only a superficial knowledge about it. Everything about it just rubs me the wrong way for some reason. Maybe it's just that i wished the talented bioware guys wouldn't "waste" so much resources on an MMO.

We all knew it was gonna fail some people are just figuring it out now.

Haven't we all decided that Guild Wars 2 is going to be awesome and Star Wars The Old Republic will suck? It's not that I've played it yet but based off the handful of videos and the hearsay I've concluded that this is fact. I mean, come on, you can't ignore this compelling and accepted popular truth. Much like the Highlander, there can be only one and that one is Guild Wars 2. Yes, WoW still has millions and millions of subscribers but I'm not going to count that because it detracts from the genuineness of my beliefs. At this point, EA would be best served by not even launching it. The humiliation would be too great. All those involved should be fired as well because they didn't make Guild Wars 2. I think it's important for people to suffer when they don't agree with me. Of course, if you're of my opinion, then you already know this and riches will come your way once you tell 11 more people this truth. Irving Zawicky of Sweek Creek, Oregon didn't accept the certainty of this knowledge and he was mauled by a beaver while walking home from work. Don't let it happen to you!

@PenguinDust said:

Haven't we all decided that Guild Wars 2 is going to be awesome and Star Wars The Old Republic will suck? It's not that I've played it yet but based off the handful of videos and the hearsay I've concluded that this is fact. I mean, come on, you can't ignore this compelling and accepted popular truth. Much like the Highlander, there can be only one and that one is Guild Wars 2. Yes, WoW still has millions and millions of subscribers but I'm not going to count that because it detracts from the genuineness of my beliefs. At this point, EA would be best served by not even launching it. The humiliation would be too great. All those involved should be fired as well because they didn't make Guild Wars 2. I think it's important for people to suffer when they don't agree with me. Of course, if you're of my opinion, then you already know this and riches will come your way once you tell 11 more people this truth. Irving Zawicky of Sweek Creek, Oregon didn't accept the certainty of this knowledge and he was mauled by a beaver while walking home from work. Don't let it happen to you!

.... You had me going for a few sentences there. +rep

@CL60: How is the new wow talent system dumbing it down? You do realize that at this moment in time those talent trees are as dumb as they have ever been as there is just one cookie cutter way to specc for most trees making them pretty much arbitrary. The new system actually will force people to make decisions about which talents to pick, seems a lot better in my book.

@Prodstep said:

@CL60: How is the new wow talent system dumbing it down? You do realize that at this moment in time those talent trees are as dumb as they have ever been as there is just one cookie cutter way to specc for most trees making them pretty much arbitrary. The new system actually will force people to make decisions about which talents to pick, seems a lot better in my book.

It's going to be the exact same, but with fewer options.

@CL60 said:

@Prodstep said:

@CL60: How is the new wow talent system dumbing it down? You do realize that at this moment in time those talent trees are as dumb as they have ever been as there is just one cookie cutter way to specc for most trees making them pretty much arbitrary. The new system actually will force people to make decisions about which talents to pick, seems a lot better in my book.

It's going to be the exact same, but with fewer options.

Current system has 0 options, the new system every tier is a significant decision.

@Prodstep said:

@CL60 said:

@Prodstep said:

@CL60: How is the new wow talent system dumbing it down? You do realize that at this moment in time those talent trees are as dumb as they have ever been as there is just one cookie cutter way to specc for most trees making them pretty much arbitrary. The new system actually will force people to make decisions about which talents to pick, seems a lot better in my book.

It's going to be the exact same, but with fewer options.

Current system has 0 options, the new system every tier is a significant decision.

You keep thinking that, they also said with the other talent change that it would be amazing and everybody believed it. All this looks to me is they dumbed it down even more than last time. I guarantee that there's going to be only one way to go again that will give maximum DPS, Survivability, Healing, etc.

@CL60 said:

@Prodstep said:

@CL60 said:

@Prodstep said:

@CL60: How is the new wow talent system dumbing it down? You do realize that at this moment in time those talent trees are as dumb as they have ever been as there is just one cookie cutter way to specc for most trees making them pretty much arbitrary. The new system actually will force people to make decisions about which talents to pick, seems a lot better in my book.

It's going to be the exact same, but with fewer options.

Current system has 0 options, the new system every tier is a significant decision.

You keep thinking that, they also said with the other talent change that it would be amazing and everybody believed it. All this looks to me is they dumbed it down even more than last time. I guarantee that there's going to be only one way to go again that will give maximum DPS, Survivability, Healing, etc.

I am not so sure, but there will probably be some builds better for certain boss fights etc, cause alot of the talent decisions are not a dps/healing/survivability increase it is more a choice between 3 different utilities.

Then again, what makes Star Wars' talent trees so special that people wont just run cookie cutter with that aswell?

WoW is dieing badly so it needs to make radical changes to the game to keep subs interested. And WoW's next expansion looks to be a massive joke if you ask me. The fantasy MMO is burnt out, badly. GW2? I've seen zero hype from any mainstream source. Only GW1 subs are interested in it.

SWTOR is fresh air, its doing stuff right. While I think Star Trek is a better source material, I can't help but not be excited for a Star Wars game.

@CL60 said:

@Prodstep said:

@CL60 said:

@Prodstep said:

@CL60: How is the new wow talent system dumbing it down? You do realize that at this moment in time those talent trees are as dumb as they have ever been as there is just one cookie cutter way to specc for most trees making them pretty much arbitrary. The new system actually will force people to make decisions about which talents to pick, seems a lot better in my book.

It's going to be the exact same, but with fewer options.

Current system has 0 options, the new system every tier is a significant decision.

You keep thinking that, they also said with the other talent change that it would be amazing and everybody believed it. All this looks to me is they dumbed it down even more than last time. I guarantee that there's going to be only one way to go again that will give maximum DPS, Survivability, Healing, etc.

so the only difference is I do less clicking? Sounds like an upgrade to me. Talents have never been about choice in any significant way and I've been playing since early Vanilla. They've been a tedious chore that I had to deal with, so I won't miss them being more or less removed from the game.

@BionicRadd said:

@CL60 said:

@Prodstep said:

@CL60 said:

@Prodstep said:

@CL60: How is the new wow talent system dumbing it down? You do realize that at this moment in time those talent trees are as dumb as they have ever been as there is just one cookie cutter way to specc for most trees making them pretty much arbitrary. The new system actually will force people to make decisions about which talents to pick, seems a lot better in my book.

It's going to be the exact same, but with fewer options.

Current system has 0 options, the new system every tier is a significant decision.

You keep thinking that, they also said with the other talent change that it would be amazing and everybody believed it. All this looks to me is they dumbed it down even more than last time. I guarantee that there's going to be only one way to go again that will give maximum DPS, Survivability, Healing, etc.

so the only difference is I do less clicking? Sounds like an upgrade to me. Talents have never been about choice in any significant way and I've been playing since early Vanilla. They've been a tedious chore that I had to deal with, so I won't miss them being more or less removed from the game.

You simply pick one talent from each tier of the tree, that's about it. Very clear at around the 4 minute mark