No love for Star Wars: The Old Republic

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Posted by Matt (960 posts) -

E3! Do you like video games? I sure do and I’ve been pretty overwhelmed with the amount of content coming at me from every direction. Through with this bombardment of information there is one game I crave information for more than any other. Star Wars: The Old Republic. Over the past couple of days I’ve noticed TOR catching a fair amount of negative press and I’m not sure why.

Smuggler talking yang.

When Rift was released I wrote something about how small changes in the MMO genre are perceived as huge changes to the people who regularly play MMOs. This is because real innovation in MMOs rarely happens. Sometimes it’s years or a decade before we really see something different. To me this negative press with TOR seems to have the opposite problem. Things that have never been done in MMOs before are being overlooked. Bioware has repeatedly stated that this is a fully voiced MMO and I really think this has the potential to make everything before completely redundant. No one will want to read paragraphs of text when taking on quests any more. They will want to get the emotion and entertainment that comes with the cut scenes. Voice acting is now a fundamental part of most video games (*cough* Zelda *cough*) and once that leap has been made in MMOs I think it’s going to be really hard to go back.

Now with the full VO comes the story telling aspect. As it stands storytelling in MMOs is nonexistent and remember it's Bioware doing this, one of the best story tellers out there. This is something that can truly mask the grind. Something no MMO has ever been able to do. What if your reason to continue playing was not based on “I have to get to the level” but that you just want to see what happens next. Then you have something like Knights of the Old Republic but in a fully online world with hundreds of other players. Now depending on how you play games this could turn you off and that’s fine. I understand why people wouldn’t want TOR but would rather have KOTOR 3 but personally I’m a MMO kinda guy.

two lightsabers?!?

The last thing and really the point I keep hearing again and again is that TOR feels like WoW with a Star Wars skin. Having played about 20 mins of TOR I can see their point but the depth of combat in MMOs is never known till late game. I also think this more of problem people have with MMOs than TOR itself. Let’s take Call of Duty. If you were to apply that same argument you would have a problem with Battlefield and every other first person shooter on the market. The way TOR plays is because it’s a MMO, it’s how the genre plays not the game. Yes there have been some MMOs that differ from the right click/hotbar setup but not many.

I feel I must say that this is all based on TOR coming out and being good. I’m as worried as I am excited. Maybe this negative press will ultimately be correct and TOR will be just another MMO that isn’t WoW but in a genre where you really need to invest yourself for many hours to get just a flavour of what’s ahead of you I feel these criticisms don’t realise how little has changed since World of Warcraft took over MMOs.

This is the most comprehensive video of The Old Republic I've seen to come out of E3:

#1 Edited by Matt (960 posts) -

E3! Do you like video games? I sure do and I’ve been pretty overwhelmed with the amount of content coming at me from every direction. Through with this bombardment of information there is one game I crave information for more than any other. Star Wars: The Old Republic. Over the past couple of days I’ve noticed TOR catching a fair amount of negative press and I’m not sure why.

Smuggler talking yang.

When Rift was released I wrote something about how small changes in the MMO genre are perceived as huge changes to the people who regularly play MMOs. This is because real innovation in MMOs rarely happens. Sometimes it’s years or a decade before we really see something different. To me this negative press with TOR seems to have the opposite problem. Things that have never been done in MMOs before are being overlooked. Bioware has repeatedly stated that this is a fully voiced MMO and I really think this has the potential to make everything before completely redundant. No one will want to read paragraphs of text when taking on quests any more. They will want to get the emotion and entertainment that comes with the cut scenes. Voice acting is now a fundamental part of most video games (*cough* Zelda *cough*) and once that leap has been made in MMOs I think it’s going to be really hard to go back.

Now with the full VO comes the story telling aspect. As it stands storytelling in MMOs is nonexistent and remember it's Bioware doing this, one of the best story tellers out there. This is something that can truly mask the grind. Something no MMO has ever been able to do. What if your reason to continue playing was not based on “I have to get to the level” but that you just want to see what happens next. Then you have something like Knights of the Old Republic but in a fully online world with hundreds of other players. Now depending on how you play games this could turn you off and that’s fine. I understand why people wouldn’t want TOR but would rather have KOTOR 3 but personally I’m a MMO kinda guy.

two lightsabers?!?

The last thing and really the point I keep hearing again and again is that TOR feels like WoW with a Star Wars skin. Having played about 20 mins of TOR I can see their point but the depth of combat in MMOs is never known till late game. I also think this more of problem people have with MMOs than TOR itself. Let’s take Call of Duty. If you were to apply that same argument you would have a problem with Battlefield and every other first person shooter on the market. The way TOR plays is because it’s a MMO, it’s how the genre plays not the game. Yes there have been some MMOs that differ from the right click/hotbar setup but not many.

I feel I must say that this is all based on TOR coming out and being good. I’m as worried as I am excited. Maybe this negative press will ultimately be correct and TOR will be just another MMO that isn’t WoW but in a genre where you really need to invest yourself for many hours to get just a flavour of what’s ahead of you I feel these criticisms don’t realise how little has changed since World of Warcraft took over MMOs.

This is the most comprehensive video of The Old Republic I've seen to come out of E3:

#2 Posted by niamahai (1405 posts) -

"The way TOR plays is because it’s a MMO, it’s how the genre plays not the game."

This be da truth!

I just hope that I can participate in end-game content and not throw away my life or time to other games.

#3 Posted by Brendan (7730 posts) -

The point that Jeff has been making isn't that TOR won't be good, but that it will still, in the end, be an MMO. Jeff is not really into MMO's anymore, and TOR won't be that different from the norm, no matter how polished an experience it is.

#4 Edited by Hats (360 posts) -

Ill be buying this game im buying it because they said it has a story for each class thats on par with KOTOR even if they story lasts 2 hours untill you are in the level 10-15 zone ill be happy with the $60 purchase
 
I dont care about raids or 5 mans or BGS i will be when I play it, but now i dont know the story and im not getting loot from it so i dont care
 
go watch any mmo gameplay it always looks shitty you have no idea whats going on
but they are fun to play

#5 Edited by FateOfNever (1821 posts) -

I really hate it when people say that storytelling in MMO's is nonexistent.  Nonexistent, by its definition, means that it is not present in any way, shape, or form.  And that is simply not true.  Story exists in WoW.  Regardless of any individual's, or group's, perception of whether or not that story is any good is irrelevant, WoW still has story in it.  Not just in it, but around it as well.  Through novels, comics, manga, etc they tell story beyond the story that already exists in the game.  And this is really true for pretty much every MMO; though the amount and quality of the story changes on a game to game basis. Now,  TOR may be stepping up the quality of the story telling, they may be enhancing the story telling, they may be trying to make people care about the story telling, but they are not the first ones to have storytelling in their game.   Sorry, just had to get that off my chest because the more I see people say that, the more it irritates me. 
 
Also, I think you're over valuing VA in MMO's.  VA creates a lot of problems in MMOs.  Let's say you want to release a patch that introduces only one single new NPC in game.  Guess what, you have to get not only the person that will voice that character back into the studio to record their dialogue, but all of the characters that can interact with that character in any vocal way back into the studio to record more dialogue.  Now imagine if you create an entire new zone.  That's a lot of work.  Now imagine when you have to get those people in to record their lines.  Because last minute changes could mean you cut entire NPCs, you delete or alter quests because in testing they weren't working right, or didn't feel right.  Which means you need to get those people in to record as last minute as possible to make sure you don't waste any of their time or your money.  And the worst part about all of that is?  You are still going to have a LOT of players that get into the MMO player habit of just wanting to know what their next quest is while saying "fuck the story."    Oh, and don't forget having to do VA for every different language the game launches in.
 
I'm not saying that I think VA in TOR is a bad thing.  I think it'll be pretty interesting and probably quite enjoyable.  But I don't think it will be something that becomes a mandatory staple of MMO's, because honestly, most MMO's cannot afford to do it - whether due to just the sheer cost of needing to hire that many actors, the cost to put in that much more work to implement it into the game properly, or just not having the time to be able to extend their development cycle out that much more. 

#6 Posted by Simplexity (1382 posts) -

Too similar to World of Warcraft, if VO is all you got then god help you, you did not think this through. That being said I haven't played the game so maybe it is awesome, but I have spent 2 years playing WoW I am done with that, I did my time damnit.

#7 Posted by jozzy (2042 posts) -

I dont think voice acting is a big deal at all. I rather have them spend the time and money in making the game deeper and better. When voice acting is good it makes a game slightly better, if it is bad it totally ruins a game.



#8 Posted by Mikemcn (6967 posts) -

I just can't see myself getting involved in an MMO story. I've never been the type to read quest descriptions or lore books.

The Star Wars of KOTOR and the movies is the what I care about, The Old Republic is set in a very odd period and is characterized with a very odd and non serious art style.

#9 Posted by niamahai (1405 posts) -

@FateOfNever:

i think that's whats Bioware intention for TOR. Making a MMO where the story matters.

Its nice to know that Bioware are willing to take a risk instead of playing it safe. Granted, a lot of others aspects of TOR is generic by MMO standards.

I got a feeling that Bioware will go all out to fuck the players, via withholding epic loots if you picked the wrong dialog choice because you weren't paying attention.

I'm not some genius game designer, so I can't tell how well this will be receive by the MMO market (10years ago i predicted console FPS to be complete shit no matter what)

#10 Edited by Matt (960 posts) -
@FateOfNever: I agree WoW has a deep history of really interesting characters, places and events but compare how WoW conveys it's narrative to any other game genre. Does it hold up? No. Presenting the player with paragraphs  and paragraphs of text is not good storytelling in a video game. Usually all this text adds up to is another kill 10 rats quest. Now TOR will definitely have these quests too and bad quest design in MMOs is another topic entirely but TOR with have player choice in their quests. That is huge for MMOs and give the player a reason to care. Did you ever have a reason to care playing WoW? No every quest ended the same way for everyone. 
 
I think talking about how hard VA will be to implement with the changing environment of a MMO is a weird point to bring up. I'm not a game developer and I'm sure problems like this are the first things they thought about. Bioware have made a lot of games and EA has published a lot of games. I'm going to assume they know what they're doing. 
 
It's weird that all I really want from MMOs is for them to catch up. It's not really innovation it's just implementing things that have long been a standard for single player role playing games.
#11 Posted by sagesebas (2003 posts) -

@Matt: I thought that CG trailer was pretty fucking cool, if Bioware could make a Starwar's movie that looks like that, it would be awesome.

#12 Posted by niamahai (1405 posts) -

@Mikemcn said:

I just can't see myself getting involved in an MMO story. I've never been the type to read quest descriptions or lore books.

The Star Wars of KOTOR and the movies is the what I care about, The Old Republic is set in a very odd period and is characterized with a very odd and non serious art style.

as i much as many people hate that cartoonish art style, it is now the 'default look' for all Star Wars products. Signs of the time , old dudes.

#13 Posted by ConstantRa1n (293 posts) -

I really wanted to see this game on consoles and not as an MMO.

#14 Posted by probablytuna (3595 posts) -

I want to play this game.

#15 Posted by Slaker117 (4835 posts) -
@Prodstep: I think WoW plus Star Wars is all some people need. VO is just another cool thing on top. At least that's what EA seems to be betting on.
 
Myself, I'm very curious to see how this does, but have very little interest in playing it. MMOs aren't my thing, I don't like having to cooperate with people I don't know online, and the few friends I had who tried to get me to play with them turned out to be crazy. For as much as I don't like people who say games have become completely stagnate, I feel like MMOs are actually in need of radical innovation if they want to expand there audience.
#16 Posted by FreakAche (2951 posts) -

I feel pretty good about it. Sure, it looks like a typical MMO, but it also looks like a BioWare game, with all the voice acting and the high profile BioWare writers that they brought down to Texas to work on the game.

#17 Posted by Matt (960 posts) -

When I say voice acting the characters aren't just telling you about your upcoming quest. It's full on Mass Effect style where you pick your response after every sentence. It really is cool to have in a MMO.

#18 Posted by FateOfNever (1821 posts) -
@Matt: If you think the only way WoW tells story is by the text that shows up when you take a quest, then I have to assume you haven't played WoW for quite a while.  I'm not saying that paragraphs of dialogue are the best way to tell a story in a game.  I also, however, don't really see the problem with reading quest text in that manner, but that's probably just because of the games I grew up on - lots of JRPGs in the SNES and PS era of gaming.  
 
I do however think that offering up dialogue choices is something good, maybe even important.  I question though, how much of an effect do you think that is really going to have in the end?  For the flash points (aka dungeons) that will have an effect, as I believe they've stated that certain dialogue choices could mean you fight entirely different bosses.  But for your average quest, will it really be that different?  I'm not saying it isn't nice, I'm not saying choice, or the illusion of it, is bad.  What I am saying is that I watched a demo of TOR where during one of the dialogue sections a bounty hunter was talking to a sith that was in a cave, appearing wounded or sick or something.  At the end of the conversation the bounty hunter had the choice to either kill the sith, or to spare his life.  I got the impression, however, that the Sith would have died either way, it was just a matter of whether or not his death earned you light side or dark side points.  Now maybe I'm wrong, maybe the sith would have lived, maybe he would have come back later on to be an ally, or maybe even an enemy, but without any indication that that would be the case, I would have to conclude that odds are, they'd die.  At that point, does being given the choice to do one thing or the other matter that much?   Either way, I will find it to be a nice, refreshing change of pace, I'm just not sure that it actually makes that much difference.  Many single player games, after all, have very linear stories still.
 
I would also beg to differ that I had no reason to care about the story while playing WoW.  If you allow yourself to become invested in the story, in the characters, it is very easy to care about what happens.  If you don't allow yourself to become invested, however, then no, at that point the story doesn't matter at all.  That doesn't change in TOR.  If someone doesn't care about the story, or the characters, they'll just skip all of the dialogue and pick whichever choice earns them light side or dark side points and move on.  Make no mistake, there will be people that do that.  The option for the story to be more engaging is there, but that doesn't mean that everyone, or even most of the people that play, will become invested or interested in the story.  I think it is a noble goal on their part to at least TRY to make the story more engaging though, and I appreciate that from them.
 
Bioware has made a lot of games.  They have not, however, ever made an MMO before.  I'm also not saying it can't be done, or that it won't work for TOR.  What I am saying is that it will not work for every MMO.  The odds of it becoming a standard in MMO's is low.  When Bioware first announced that every character would be fully voiced in TOR, you know what Blizzard's response was?  Great for them, but don't expect that to ever happen in our game due to how much time, effort, and money that would cost us for the very little pay back it would give.  
 
I can understand wanting the MMO genre to catch up to the single player experiences that are available.  The problem is, some of those features are difficult, implausible, or just unnecessary for the MMO genre.  MMO's also don't have the same developmental process that single player games do, or some of the luxuries that come with that, which is why it takes so long for the MMO genre to evolve at all.  I do hope some of the things that TOR does, it does well, and they become standard in the MMO genre going forward, but some things I think won't matter nearly as much, and other things won't effect the success of MMO's that currently exist, but I do think what they are doing, and what they are trying for, is good all the same.  I just think it's important to try to keep a realistic view of what TOR will do to the genre as a whole and not create massive expectations that it can only dream to meet.
#19 Posted by FateOfNever (1821 posts) -
@Mikemcn said:

I just can't see myself getting involved in an MMO story. I've never been the type to read quest descriptions or lore books.

The Star Wars of KOTOR and the movies is the what I care about, The Old Republic is set in a very odd period and is characterized with a very odd and non serious art style.

The Old Republic is set more towards the KOTOR spectrum of the Star Wars time line though.  It's sort of like KOTOR 3, really.  Also, while many may not appreciate that sort of cartoon-ish art style, the fact of the matter is that WoW has proven that that type of art style ages much, much better than a more realistic style and will help keep the game looking good for a lot longer than a more realistic or serious look might.
#20 Edited by Wrighteous86 (3780 posts) -

@Slaker117 said:

@Prodstep: I think WoW plus Star Wars is all some people need. VO is just another cool thing on top. At least that's what EA seems to be betting on.

Myself, I'm very curious to see how this does, but have very little interest in playing it. MMOs aren't my thing, I don't like having to cooperate with people I don't know online, and the few friends I had who tried to get me to play with them turned out to be crazy. For as much as I don't like people who say games have become completely stagnate, I feel like MMOs are actually in need of radical innovation if they want to expand there audience.

Yeah, the only way I'll play and enjoy TOR is if I can play through the story mostly by myself and then cancel my subscription once I've finished. I want to play it like a Bioware RPG, not like an MMO. If this is at all feasible, I'll try it. I wouldn't mind presumably being one member of a huge army of Player Characters in a war-type mission, but I don't want to party up with strangers.

I don't like subscriptions or staying with the same game after I've "beaten" it, and I only play online with my friends, not strangers. None of my friends, save one distant one, play MMOs, and I don't know if he'd leave WoW to play TOR.

#21 Posted by Slaker117 (4835 posts) -
@Matt said:
When I say voice acting the characters aren't just telling you about your upcoming quest. It's full on Mass Effect style where you pick your response after every sentence. It really is cool to have in a MMO.
That does seem neat, but I don't think it changes the game enough for people who aren't already committed to the genre. There will be people who play it because it's Star Wars, and there will be people who play it because it's a new MMO, but it doesn't seem to do much to win over others. We will have to wait and see, but I can understand the lack of interest out of the press. It doesn't help when the game itself isn't even shown at the EA press conference.
#22 Posted by BaconGames (3357 posts) -

Much int he same way that the editors here didn't care about Rift and probably won't like it, TOR isn't the break out MMO they're hoping for. They already played that game and it's called WoW (to them I mean). Personally it's MMO enthusiast sites that I think matter most when it comes to this genre anyway, especially if the staff only appreciate MMO's on a superficial level. I bet they'll like Guild Wars 2 a lot more though.

#23 Posted by Brackynews (4056 posts) -

@sagesebas: Except Bioware doesn't make trailers that look like that. Blur Studios does. And Blur's work is already in Avatar so they definitely know movies. :) You're right though, Lucas should tap them for that Star Wars TV thing he can't seem to make.

Anyway back to TOR. I'll be there day one. I know people In Real Life that will be there day one. And I'll enjoy it for a month.

If there's enough content (fully voiced or not) to keep me going longer than a month, then I'll be a happy subscriber. I'm not interested in judging if it will be successful or not, I will know if it's entertaining when I play it. Bioware has always done me a solid, so they get my $50 to try and convince me it's worth more than $50.

#24 Posted by FateOfNever (1821 posts) -
@Slaker117 said:
@Matt said:
When I say voice acting the characters aren't just telling you about your upcoming quest. It's full on Mass Effect style where you pick your response after every sentence. It really is cool to have in a MMO.
That does seem neat, but I don't think it changes the game enough for people who aren't already committed to the genre. There will be people who play it because it's Star Wars, and there will be people who play it because it's a new MMO, but it doesn't seem to do much to win over others. We will have to wait and see, but I can understand the lack of interest out of the press. It doesn't help when the game itself isn't even shown at the EA press conference.
That was just the worst at the EA press conference, with how terribly down trodden Greg Zeschuk looked and sounded when trying to talk about TOR.  He looked like a man that didn't want to be there and desperately wanted this project to just be finished and over with.
 
As far as the press goes, I think part of the problem is that the press has been seeing this game for years now, and for the most part, it hasn't changed during all the time they've seen it.  It's at the point where, honestly, the only thing most people care about is a release date, and when there isn't one, the press doesn't have much to talk about in regards to the game that they haven't talked about already.
#25 Posted by TooWalrus (13151 posts) -

Well, I love WoW- but don't really care for Star Wars (except for those original 3 movies). So... I'll stick with WoW.

#26 Posted by sagesebas (2003 posts) -

@Brackynews: The reason I stopped playing warcraft is because for me I really like story based games, if TOR can make good on being really story driven I might be interested but I still probably wont play it. Also thanks for correcting my gaff

#27 Posted by Matt (960 posts) -
@FateOfNever: I have played WoW recently and they definitely made a better attempt at storytelling but it’s inconsistent. It pops up very rarely and only for big events.

I’ve actually seen that exact choice you’re talking about in the cave on tatooine and I have seen it play out the other way but can’t remember what happened. Let’s say for arguments sake that he dies either way. I think the important choice there is how your character reacts not necessarily the outcome. If you’re playing a good character yes he still died at least you acted within your characters morals. I think choices like that are good way of forming a character around what essentially is just another bounty hunter in this online world.

I find it hard to become invested in the WoW story as I have to stop and do a lot of reading to obtain most of the plot. The fact that the path of the story never changes also doesn’t help. 100 people have done this quest before me and 100 will do it after and it will be exactly the same. At least in TOR there will be some difference even if it’s not a lot. Having the sense that it’s your story can be really compelling. I agree some people will never care for story in MMOs and will always just click their way through until they can get back to the action but those people are a lost cause anyway.

I find it hard to believe that with the amount of money WoW is pulling in they couldn’t add VA if they wanted to. They could but that would be admitting defeat to a competitor. WoW has already added some VA and my question is this, are they really going to stop there? By adding VA they admit that it’s important and it would be silly to say we’re never going to have full VA when games are getting bigger and better all the time. Also it’s not really up to Blizzard to decide this. If VA proves to be really popular in TOR they will have no choice to be fully voiced or be left behind.

I definitely don’t expect TOR to come out and all MMOs to follow suit. I do have my expectations set properly. I just think TOR is going in the right direction.

#28 Posted by jeffisbiking (12 posts) -

After reading discussions on what Bioware would do about wanting to add small bits of voice work or a new NPC here or there, I would have to think they have some voice actors working for them full time who can perform for a range of characters (like a bunch of Nolan Norths). This way it'd be easier to consider adding small bits for patches, although more expensive to keep them on full time.

#29 Edited by FateOfNever (1821 posts) -
@Matt said:

@FateOfNever

I find it hard to believe that with the amount of money WoW is pulling in they couldn’t add VA if they wanted to. They could but that would be admitting defeat to a competitor. WoW has already added some VA and my question is this, are they really going to stop there? By adding VA they admit that it’s important and it would be silly to say we’re never going to have full VA when games are getting bigger and better all the time. Also it’s not really up to Blizzard to decide this. If VA proves to be really popular in TOR they will have no choice to be fully voiced or be left behind.

For WoW?  No, they seriously don't have the time and resources for it.  They barely have the time to work in things more important than VA and have gone on record saying as such.  For all the money they pull in, people forget that they still work with a limited team of developers, artists, programmers, etc.  They also don't want to branch out into a much larger team because they risk losing quality if they do.  So no, for WoW, it is not viable.  Not only that, but if you want to talk about them 'admitting defeat' then I'm not sure you realize that for the entire life of WoW they've done so much borrowing and tweaking ideas from others - other gamers, other people that created add-ons for their game, etc.  If they think it is a good idea, they get behind it.  They don't think it is a good idea to introduce VA into the entirety of WoW, and I agree with them.  Now, they may put more VA into their next MMO, where they can work it in from the start, but WoW will survive just fine without every single character in the game having VA, even if it does prove to be something that gets picked up for the genre.
 
edit:  I think the important point I'm trying to make here is that while companies like Bioware and Blizzard may be able to implement full VA into their games (at least their new ones), smaller companies that don't have the budget that those two companies have will probably be unable to afford it, and as such, I don't think a fully voiced game will become a staple.  The budget for TOR is already massive, and it wouldn't surprise me if a good part of that budget went into the voicing for the game and smaller companies won't be able to match that because most don't have the same kind of backing.
#30 Posted by DillonWerner (1526 posts) -
@ConstantRa1n said:
I really wanted to see this game on consoles and not as an MMO.
So basically you wanted KOTOR 3?
#31 Posted by Wrighteous86 (3780 posts) -

@DillonWerner said:

@ConstantRa1n said:
I really wanted to see this game on consoles and not as an MMO.
So basically you wanted KOTOR 3?

Didn't most people?

#32 Edited by DillonWerner (1526 posts) -
@Wrighteous86 said:

@DillonWerner said:

@ConstantRa1n said:
I really wanted to see this game on consoles and not as an MMO.
So basically you wanted KOTOR 3?

Didn't most people?


 Well yes I'd hope so.  I think KOTOR is probably one of Bioware's best RPG's to date.  I've just never really gotten into an MMO before so I'm interested to see what Bioware will do with this.
#33 Posted by ConstantRa1n (293 posts) -
@Wrighteous86 said:

@DillonWerner said:

@ConstantRa1n said:
I really wanted to see this game on consoles and not as an MMO.
So basically you wanted KOTOR 3?

Didn't most people?

He beat me to saying it. lol
#34 Posted by Amit (10 posts) -
@Prodstep: @Prodstep said:

Too similar to World of Warcraft, if VO is all you got then god help you, you did not think this through. That being said I haven't played the game so maybe it is awesome, but I have spent 2 years playing WoW I am done with that, I did my time damnit.

You sir make no sense with that statement. One is a scifi game and other is a fantasy. It making a huge a change in MMORPG by having a proper interactive story with voice. Its like saying Mass effect 3 and Witcher 2 are the same. Anyways , i think RPG gamer are the only group that become too attached to game type. I don't see that with FPS player. A call of duty player still ends up playing Medal of Honor even if its didn't get that high score otherwise Medal of Honor would have never sold over 5 million. FPS player just plays the games and enjoys the genera while a stupid RPG fans gets to attached to one type of game.
#35 Posted by Simplexity (1382 posts) -

@Amit: It from what I've seen is practically a World of Warcraft reskin, nothing wrong with that, it's just not for me and I really don't see having VO to be as much of a pull as they think its going to be.

#36 Posted by CL60 (16906 posts) -

I want another game to play that is similar to WoW, because I've done all there is to do in WoW since it came out, and ToR seems perfect for this. Since I like Star Wars, and MMOs.

#37 Posted by Crono (2652 posts) -

I have 0 interest in this game at all but I have a friend that is a total Star Wars nerd and has been talking about this game non-stop ever since they announced it. I will be playing this game against my own will so I really hope that what you have to say about the game holds true, OP. The game doesn't look terrible by any means, but I can't get excited over it because its an MMO and I stopped caring about MMOs a few years ago. Maybe enough time has passed that I can enjoy one again... but I am very doubtful.

#38 Posted by ArbitraryWater (11585 posts) -
@Wrighteous86 said:

@DillonWerner said:

@ConstantRa1n said:
I really wanted to see this game on consoles and not as an MMO.
So basically you wanted KOTOR 3?

Didn't most people?

And this, ladies and gentlemen, is why EA is scared as hell that this game could bomb. They're stuck between the rock of people who are into MMOs and see no reason to leave their game of choice, and people like me who aren't going to play it specifically because its a MMO. If it was KotOR III I'd be hyping that thing to death right now, even with Bioware's recent Dragon Age related flub and my discovery that the first game really isn't as good as we remember it being.
Online
#39 Posted by FateOfNever (1821 posts) -

You know, I find it interesting how many people are saying they want a KotOR 3 instead of this.  Mostly because it reminds me of when WoW came out and how many people wanted Warcraft 4, not an MMO.  And here we are and people are still playing WoW, WoW is still continuing the Warcraft story, and that was even a drastic change in genre.  Not saying people are wrong about wanting a KotOR 3 though.  And I believe TOR is set far enough after KotOR that it would still be possible for Bioware to go back and make a KotOR 3 at some point in time, but, I also wouldn't be hopeful about that.

#40 Posted by Matt (960 posts) -

I've updated the first post with what I think is the best TOR video to come out of E3

#41 Posted by Oni (2098 posts) -

What you're saying is true to an extent (though people have already mentioned how WoW has improved its storytelling with Cataclysm a lot), you can't really blame people for not wanting to get back on the same treadmill again and again. TOR does look like it will make the journey a lot more interesting, at least the first time through, but it's really masking the fact that the content of the quests is still mostly running around and killing stuff. I'm personally going to play it because I like MMOs to an extent, but the problem they face is that they're all pretty much the same genre, and WoW just does it better than anyone else and has the richest featureset, a new MMO simply can't compete with that. So it's understandable that a lot of MMOs don't really succeed.

But yeah I'll definitely give TOR a fair shake, seems fun if not revolutionary.

#42 Posted by Little_Socrates (5675 posts) -

Even if it is a reasonable place for WoW players to go in the end, I never want to play that style of game ever again because the gameplay is SO COMPLETELY RUBBISHY. You could tell me it was the Citizen Kane of video games and I still wouldn't want to play it, I'd make someone else play it while I watched 'cause it's so painful to actually play an MMORPG.

#43 Posted by Crash_Happy (661 posts) -

Short answer I guess would be that they started talking about the game too soon in the dev cycle, and the game doesn't seem to offer anything new to MMO's.

#44 Posted by Matt (960 posts) -

@Crash_Happy said:

the game doesn't seem to offer anything new to MMO's.

That's simply not true.

#45 Posted by Crash_Happy (661 posts) -

@Matt: It's hard to answer such a fulsome and well argued response.

#46 Edited by CL60 (16906 posts) -
@Crash_Happy said:

@Matt: It's hard to answer such a fulsome and well argued response.

Give me another MMO with a massive story that is fully voiced, has cutscenes, and has a dialogue wheel that multiple people in a party can be in on at the same time. All you're doing is looking at the combat and saying "NOTHING NEW IN THIS GAME!" when that's not true at all.
#47 Posted by AlisterCat (5520 posts) -

MMO combat isn't all that different from KOTOR, really. It just wasn't class based. I'll be happy to play this like a single player game when my friends aren't online, and a small scale MMO when they are. I dont need it to be an MMO but I'm not going to bitch that it is.

#48 Posted by Christwood (30 posts) -

I think SWTOR looks great, but when you compare it to Guild Wars 2.... well, TOR just looks like shit. Ancient, boring and even the story and voiced aspect is nothing special because GW2 does the same + so much more.
 
So all in all TOR will prolly be a good game, but it won't be much different than WoW in space =(

#49 Posted by CL60 (16906 posts) -
@Christwood said:
I think SWTOR looks great, but when you compare it to Guild Wars 2.... well, TOR just looks like shit. Ancient, boring and even the story and voiced aspect is nothing special because GW2 does the same + so much more.  So all in all TOR will prolly be a good game, but it won't be much different than WoW in space =(
I disagree. I'm not interested in GW2 at all, and I'm somebody who played the shit out of the first one, and all of my slots were geared out level 20s. But I'm pumped for ToR.
#50 Posted by Christwood (30 posts) -

@CL60
I know. A lot of TOR feel the same way as you described. But I'm just thinking that the reason for most of the TOR negativism could be the fact that games mainly like GW2 and maybe also Tera or ArcheAge are making TOR look old and uninteresting. 
People are expecting something new these days.

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