After a good amount of time played, I feel the need to break it down and let you duders know my takeaway. Yes, its a beta and things may change, but having beta'd a lot of MMOs, I know most don't. Here goes...

Character Creation - Normally the part that will trip and halt any 'serious' mmo player, you'll find yourself trying to customise your character just how you want it because lets face it, this is your avatar for the next hundred plus hours, you don't want it to be jank, or maybe you're one of those people who enjoys that. Either way, Galaxies this isn't...sadly. Some pretty standard sliders to pick between preset faces, hair, details, scars, whatever. There is the problem, preset. Galaxies is over 8 years old now and gave you more options for your alien spaceman, it really was a big letdown that a company like Bioware couldn't have spent a bit longer on the character design stage. Despite the lack of more detailed customisation, whats there is of good quality. Also the races cover the bases players should want, be aware though, they are divided. Twi'lek cannot be Empire, Cyborg cannot be Republic, thems the breaks. Theres a few other unique races to each side, so anyone hoping to play with friends will hopefully not have set their mind on playing something that would go against their chosen faction.

The World - This is where Bioware delivers, the lore, story and depth of everything going on around you is incredible. Those interested in really digging through the story will love the presentation and enjoy every line of fully voiced (and well acted) dialogue. Those not interested in this side, simply wanting the 'next' mmo experience will also be satisfied. Conversations can be skipped and broken down into a simple 'go here, wreck shit' simulator with the player picking 1 for good, 2 for neutral, 3 for evil, there are only a few forced light/dark side choices, even these can simply be blown through if you desire. The game will hit all the locations, races, factions and stories you could hope for, maybe even more than you could have anticipated, with great detail and pacing. This is easily the most realised world of an MMO at launch (I say at launch because many will of course compare this to WoW, remember its a game on its 3rd expansion, not to mention content patches)

The Graphics - This is where I find myself divided, I have a mean rig that runs the game on highest graphics with no drop in performance. In most places the game looks fine, but it suffers from texture pop-in as it loads into conversation sequences and can look really ugly when it gets close to things. Another game best admired from afar sadly. The game won't disappoint with its flashes and special effects however, combat looks and flows beautifully. The animation is fantastic and each blow has a significant weight or flourish that sets it ahead of the competition. Of course, graphics are all subjective, some may find them perfectly acceptable, myself, I'm a little bugged that my PC wasn't challenged by the game and I can't push it to go any further. It lacks that little extra punch. The FMV however is astonishing, I found myself watching the intro with my jaw open. Always a kick in the teeth when a game has such sweet FMV that leads into meh actual graphics.

The Sound - Easiest category by far, simply, amazing. The score still gives me goosebumps from the original films, this is in a league of its own. The music, the effects, the voice acting, all fantastic. I have yet to find a single fault with it.

The Gameplay - It sounds insulting, but the gameplay is standard MMO at its core. Take quest, kill things, complete quest, get rewards. There have been no real moments that break the formula, save for the odd conversation choice that will lead to either combat, no combat, accepting a bribe etc. Anyone who is picking this game up however will more than likely understand how MMO's work and expect no different though.

The Crafting - This is where I admire Bioware, everyone knows that crafting is one big timesink in games, so they spell it out for you. Gathering requires you to send a companion (think a combat pet you equip and try to impress via conversation options) to complete a mission for you, the game states how long it will take and when they return they bring materials. Nice and easy to track and keep on top of, also brilliant for players who don't enjoy the physical trawl of gathering, you set a companion going and just continue playing normally. A brilliant solution for the problem of exhausted crafting systems that have been done to death in every recent MMO.

The Social - The beta community is...interesting to say the least. It has its fair share of trolls, but there are enough helpful players that I've joined up with to complete quests that show how well the systems in place work. Loot is fairly divided and rolls are in place for higher quality parts. Group conversations are decided by rolls, but generally you'll find most players you group with will pick the same options, even if they don't, your option still counts for your character. Nobody is going to 'ruin' your experience by breaking a choice for you. Only time will tell how the games community works out, heres hoping its story heavy outset scares off the 10 year olds that we've come to despise over the years.

Overall (tl;dr) - I can see myself playing a lot more of the beta, but as for release, I feel like this is a game I'll wait on. See how the community turns out a few months down the line and if its still going strong, maybe hop back in and get involved. If you're a Star Wars fan, you cannot miss this game. If you're a big MMO player, you're bound to play this anyway, so nothing I can say will sway you. For people interested in playing this as a starter to the world of MMO's, I can't think of a better game, its close enough to a singleplayer RPG that the gentle introduction into the multiplayer aspects won't scare you off. Sure the game has its issues and imperfections, but all MMO's do, they're easy to look past and the game itself is a solid 5 stars.

Having got into the beta today. I will agree on all if not most of your points. And excellent breakdown of the game btw. The character creator is prety dumbed down like you said. The voice acting and dialogue is awesome. The graphics and textures from afar are nice. Upclose the textures do break down. Im on an average PC 10 months old with intergrated graphics and not had any crashes or problems. So thats been great. The music is vintage Star Wars music. Lag issues have been an issue but thats to be expected but not cripling. The opening movies and cinematics are the best ive seen for an MMO. Overall ive enjoyed it with some minor issues but nothing thats glaring. I preordered it so will be playing it from day one. Its not WOW but tell me what is. Fix the lag clean up some of the texture issues and add a bit more to character creation. Is what I would say.

Love the game so far, agree with just about all of your points. Here is my worry:

The media is going to latch onto the talking point that TOR plays almost exactly like WoW, in a lot of ways. Is that really a bad thing? It's just the way MMOs are. In shooting genres, you move with the left stick, aim with the right, usually have regenerating health. In AAA MMOs, you click on hotkeys to use abilities and group up with friends to use those hotkeys against harder enemies. I think that Bioware has done enough with the voices and great writing, as well as smart changes to things like crafting and group dynamics to make the MMO seem fresh again. When playing an RTS you don't go in saying "Oh man I'm making buildings and units again what the hell", so going into MMO's people shouldn't be saying "Blargh damned hotkeys!"

It's easy to hate on this game because it "plays like WoW", but it plays like WoW because they are the same damned genre.

@MadLaughter: There are several MMO's coming out in the near future that don't simply play by mashing hot keys, and don't revolve around the quest structure of "go here and kill x amount of this", then having to wait for enemy spawns, while hoping somebody doesn't get to them before you. I don't think the fact that MMO's have been like this for a while is a valid excuse for bad gameplay, especially when they're asking us to pay £40 for a disc, and then a monthly subscription and when there are other MMO's coming that can prove otherwise. I expect higher quality and the game fails on almost every front.

The story/dialogue stuff is pretty good, I'll give it that and it will appeal to those who still like WoW and such, but in the end, it just makes me wish I was playing KotOR 3.

Meh, it seems alright. Graphics is what you expect. Because you market MMOs to a broader audience (women) that often do not fall in the core PC gamer crowd with powerful rigs. It has to run on laptops too.

It is really really standard-MMORPG mechanics. But I somehow doubt that anyone will ever break this, without taking the RPG part out of it.

The story/alignement stuff is pretty neat.

I will copy the stuff I said in some other thread.

@Liber said:

From what I played in the beta, lightsabers are not the worst problem of this game.

This game is going to tank, and I predict it going free-to-play after 6 months.

@MadLaughter said:

It's easy to hate on this game because it "plays like WoW", but it plays like WoW because they are the same damned genre.

Yes but over the course of seven years genres tend to change.

You'd think that one of the most beloved game developers being funded by one of the largest game publishers to make an MMO based on one of the worlds most iconic intellectual properties with one of the largest budgets ever would be able to do something to make the fundamental gameplay of a game exciting enough to warrant higher praise than "yeah its pretty much WoW".

Its good that people will enjoy the story lines but its just frustrating to know that the game isn't really moving anything forward in terms of how you actually play the game.

Heres hoping that Guild Wars 2 gives this plodding genre a shot in the arm.

I've played the first ten levels of the Bounty Hunter and the Jedi Knight, two very different classes, and I had quite a lot of fun with it. While it has the very standard formula, they are doing enough with it to give it an identity that stands apart from Rift, WoW and so on for me.

I'm pleasantly surprised with just how well the story and dialogue component works, despite me being skeptic about it being possible to do. Thought I would want to play them alone but it's just as fun to have a buddy along and play, especially since they make it so much easier to enter the quest giver sequences even if your friend isn't at the NPC. Heading off to a vendor while your friend hands in the quest, and you click a holographic projector that allows you to pretty much spawn next to your friend as a hologram and hand in the quest yourself. A very neat mechanic and I will definitely be playing this at launch.

I'm also amused with how fun it is to be dastardly evil.

What is inherently bad about the hotkey format of an MMO? If you find it boring, sure. But that's a subjective thing.

And regarding the 'genres change over the course of seven years', sure. But the thing with MMO's is that they change as well. Current WoW is very different from launch Wow, and Old Republic is basically starting with a feature set equivalent to current WoW. There are a few things missing, like mods, but just about everything relevant that is missing has been promised to be coming soon. The genre evolved and where TOR is feature-wise is right there with the other games in its genre.

Just like FPS games attract some people, fighting games are for a certain crowd, racing games have their own place, JRPG players like what they like...

Hotkey MMO's are a genre. Action-MMOs are another. There's nothing inherently wrong with either approach, some people just prefer one to another. Just because Forza 4 bored me to tears doesn't mean I think it's a bad game, I think that my tastes are just different. Basically what I'm saying is that there is a difference between calling this game bad and it just not being a genre you enjoy.

As for wishing this was a single player game, the group things have been the stuff I most enjoy. When in a group conversation and my Smuggler wins the roll, choosing to flush the soldiers out an airlock? Everyone else in the group was stoked, even the ones who chose the other option.

Ok. So I just finished my first "Flashpoint". Thats really neat. The group dynamic on where to steer the events and such. With randoms it's still fun, but it will shine with friends. That's really unique. The first levels are really slow. Much more annoying than WoW. It really picks up after level 10.

@MadLaughter: I don't like hot key based game, I find the combat insanely boring, but that isn't the real problem. It's more to do with the structure of the game and the fact quests are usually no more than a typical grind of killing enemies and/or collecting compononts. That's not a specific design choice, it's lazyness, poor design, tedious and makes the game feel very dated. Again, there are other MMO's coming out in the near future that still have the basic hot key set up, but put a twist on it and have drastically shaken up the quest structure.

The only thing that Old Republic is doing that's new is the presentation. Having proper cut-scenes and a real story does help. I have to say though, I've been playing as a Republic Soldier this time around, and found their story to be a lot better than what the Jedi Knights get. If I do ever play the full game, I think I'll be staying away from the Jedi classes, which is the complete opposite of what I expected to happen.

@WinterSnowblind: Having played 3 of the jedi classes to level 10. its about what I expected. Covers all the aspects of learning and trying to control, or embrace, your emotions. Its raw Old Republic basically, with a nice lump of 'oh but you're the most amazing student we've ever had, just like all the 1000 other people currently playing this class at this exact moment'.

@MadLaughter: I don't like hot key based game, I find the combat insanely boring, but that isn't the real problem. It's more to do with the structure of the game and the fact quests are usually no more than a typical grind of killing enemies and/or collecting compononts. That's not a specific design choice, it's lazyness, poor design, tedious and makes the game feel very dated. Again, there are other MMO's coming out in the near future that still have the basic hot key set up, but put a twist on it and have drastically shaken up the quest structure.

The only thing that Old Republic is doing that's new is the presentation. Having proper cut-scenes and a real story does help.

you can play Cyborg on the Republic side....they just can't be Jedi

I'm pretty sure you can play Cyborg on the republic side...

@Liber said:

I will copy the stuff I said in some other thread.

@Liber said:

From what I played in the beta, lightsabers are not the worst problem of this game.

This game is going to tank, and I predict it going free-to-play after 6 months.

I don't think the game will do particularly well down the lines, though I give it around a year or so before going f2p if it ever does. On launch the hype and buzz will draw people in, but over 50% will have left after the first month.

@WinterSnowblind said:

@MadLaughter: There are several MMO's coming out in the near future that don't simply play by mashing hot keys, and don't revolve around the quest structure of "go here and kill x amount of this", then having to wait for enemy spawns, while hoping somebody doesn't get to them before you. I don't think the fact that MMO's have been like this for a while is a valid excuse for bad gameplay, especially when they're asking us to pay £40 for a disc, and then a monthly subscription and when there are other MMO's coming that can prove otherwise. I expect higher quality and the game fails on almost every front.

The story/dialogue stuff is pretty good, I'll give it that and it will appeal to those who still like WoW and such, but in the end, it just makes me wish I was playing KotOR 3.

I agree, the fact that MMOs have been like this for a while is not a valid excuse, but the fact that the MMO with the most players in the world is designed like that is. No game is going to be able to inovate while a single game has a monopoly, thats why having a monopoly is illegal in america.

Just played a first lengthy session tonight. Got my Jedi Consular to lvl 8. Digging the Bioware trademark dialog stuff. Not digging all the 'wait-in-line-for-your-turn' oldschool questdesign and mechanics. Worst offender thus far is the 'summon training droid' nonsense quest right in-front of the Jedi Academy. WoW's pretty much past these dated mechanics (or rather has a tonne of workarounds in its questdesign toolbelt). I don't think I'll play much more of it this beta weekend, just get past lvl 10 and check out the advanced class and the companion system.

SW:TOR's all too tried and true to excite. The core gameplay is definitely rocksolid. Bioware's inherent dialogs are awesome, but that isn't really core gameplay in SW:TOR, more like staffage. I like Bioware's style and Star Wars lore enough to bear 'a playthrough' of a class (going for a rogue Sith build at release), but I won't stay past the packed-in 30 days. I can say that with certainty. I'd rather have played Skyrim or Battlefield 3 tonight, than do another standard template MMO. Been there and done that for years worth of playtime and in the end, I prefer games with a higher emphasis on 'realtime execution' way more. I prefer moment-to-moment excitement over obsession and compulsion and social pressures and ambitions.

Oh - and I'll never understand why Bioware doesn't open with a more cinematic and exciting instanced/scripted singleplayer experience/tutorial rather than dropping players in the most generic and bland and restrictive quest funnel ever. The first couple of hours on Tython reminded me of Warmhammer Online and that's not a good thing. Definitely not master worldbuilders like Blizzard and Rockstar North. The whole Jedi starter zone feels too fabricated. Also - flesh raiders sounds like an insider dirty joke. Had a married dude in a regular WoW raidgroup who had been summoned to perform his duties and 'Raid the Flesh' during a weekly scheduled raid once. Guess that one's just so obvious and prevalent, most MMO players are in on the joke.

@Dagbiker said:

@WinterSnowblind said:

@MadLaughter: There are several MMO's coming out in the near future that don't simply play by mashing hot keys, and don't revolve around the quest structure of "go here and kill x amount of this", then having to wait for enemy spawns, while hoping somebody doesn't get to them before you. I don't think the fact that MMO's have been like this for a while is a valid excuse for bad gameplay, especially when they're asking us to pay £40 for a disc, and then a monthly subscription and when there are other MMO's coming that can prove otherwise. I expect higher quality and the game fails on almost every front.

The story/dialogue stuff is pretty good, I'll give it that and it will appeal to those who still like WoW and such, but in the end, it just makes me wish I was playing KotOR 3.

I agree, the fact that MMOs have been like this for a while is not a valid excuse, but the fact that the MMO with the most players in the world is designed like that is. No game is going to be able to inovate while a single game has a monopoly, thats why having a monopoly is illegal in america.

That's not technically a monopoly, it's capitalism. As much as I am done with the game mechanics of a WoW experience, they've earned their success fair and square. Blizzard isn't controlling anything in the market. They hold no privileges or exclusivity to consumers. No one is forcing 10+ million to subscribe to their service. There are hundreds of other similar services out there that you can sign up for. But them finding that early formula to success is a great hinderance to what other developers can risk with their invested products.

Well, I played about 2-3 hours of it and the music, the voice acting, and all the dialogue stuff is fantastic... even the graphics up close (that cartoonish look) seem pretty great to me. Sadly the almost standardized MMORPG combat is something that "I" do no longer enjoy (there is no way to avoid it), but I guess it's one of the reasons that makes people play those games.

If they had combined most of the MMO elements of TOR with the FPS combat from the Jedi Knight games, I would have been a happy man.

I'm looking at a level 16 sorcerer and a level 12 commando.

I agree with the entire breakdown, but I think many of the negative comments are less impactful than negativity would suggest. Many of the problems aren't 'problems,' but rather, are simply areas that SWTOR doesn't innovate us into breathlessness. For example, the character creator is flexible and about on-par with what I would expect. Is that a bad thing? I wouldn't say so. Example number two: the gameplay is a lot like other leading MMORPGs (like Rift, World of Warcraft). A bad thing? Not really. It functions as I would expect, minus a bit of their 'heroic combat' design additions. That is, you're typically fighting 5-6 enemies with your companion. Explosions, chaos via sheer numbers of combatants, and fantastic combat animations change the hotkey gameplay into something that I think more people will enjoy.

Really digging the story. You would figure that quantity would hurt quality, but the voice acting and writing is some of BioWare's better stuff, for sure. Spent a bit too much time laughing my ass off at my character's brilliantly-snarky remarks.

Certainly going to level two characters up to cap. That's my desired 'minimum' goal. And the best part of this companion system? I play healers, and now I get to heal while questing without much impact on leveling speed/viability. :D

I'm looking at a level 16 sorcerer and a level 12 commando.

I agree with the entire breakdown, but I think many of the negative comments are less impactful than negativity would suggest. Many of the problems aren't 'problems,' but rather, are simply areas that SWTOR doesn't innovate us into breathlessness. For example, the character creator is flexible and about on-par with what I would expect. Is that a bad thing? I wouldn't say so. Example number two: the gameplay is a lot like other leading MMORPGs (like Rift, World of Warcraft). A bad thing? Not really. It functions as I would expect, minus a bit of their 'heroic combat' design additions. That is, you're typically fighting 5-6 enemies with your companion. Explosions, chaos via sheer numbers of combatants, and fantastic combat animations change the hotkey gameplay into something that I think more people will enjoy.

Really digging the story. You would figure that quantity would hurt quality, but the voice acting and writing is some of BioWare's better stuff, for sure. Spent a bit too much time laughing my ass off at my character's brilliantly-snarky remarks.

Certainly going to level two characters up to cap. That's my desired 'minimum' goal. And the best part of this companion system? I play healers, and now I get to heal while questing without much impact on leveling speed/viability. :D

Ironically the character creator has more meaningful options in it than the character creator for Mass Effect or Dragon Age Origins.  There are three skin complexions and twelve hairstyles in Mass Effect, slightly more in Dragon Age.  I made a Chiss lady with about 40 options for hair, 20 for complexion, 7 shades of blue.  I wasn't too upset that I wasn't able to edit the nose bridge depth and the brow height, I got a dozen facial shape varieties, and I don't consider having the option to make a deformed and fucked up looking character 'role playing'.  And for all the anger about only four body types... there is one body type in Mass Effect and Dragon Age.
 
How is one character creator immersive and great and another terrible despite having more options?  Because complaining is the only thing that video game fans can do.

@Brodehouse: My comparison was more to Galaxies than it was Mass Effect or Dragon Age. Bioware is a company that has history with character creation systems and for something like an MMO I would have expected them to pull out the big guns. True, it is by no means a bad tool, but there are far betters ones available on games that most would laugh at (looking at you APB)

I've played a bit myself and pretty much right after creating my character I knew it wasn't for me. I got a cool, little dialogue in the new Bioware standard of full voice-acting and cinematic camera angles only to get sent out to active three security consoles and fight some generic bad guys with my generic bar of skills along the bottom and watch some bars fill up. It's just another boring, time-wasting MMO with good voice-acting and a few interesting camera angles. No thanks.

@project343: I think that's a fair way to put it. I've been one to complain about the game a lot, there are a lot of design choices that I think feel dated or just plain hate, but I don't think the game is horrible, I've actually had a lot of fun with it.

I think having a monthly fee is a completely antiquated business structure though, and there are definitely better MMO's on the horizon, so I just don't think the game is going to have much lasting appeal. See the stories and get out, is my advice.

Things I like(Have a level 19 Jedi Shadow right now): Sending pets to sell off all vendor trash. You can't use them for a minute, but who cares. You don't have to make a trip to sell when inventory is full. Bonuses for missions are great. sometimes there are three tiers to the bonuses for more XP and greater challenge. Travel in this game sucks though. Having to go through quite a few load screens to go to new zones is a pain. Also, you have to go to an NPC to retrait. I guess I am spoiled by Guild Wars where you could change everything in a town and that was it. One load screen was all it took. I went on a really unoccupied server and the load times were heinous. It's beta, but this game isn't where it should be right now at all.

Been playing a chunk of it today. Seems fine. I've already caught myself totally ignoring quest giver dialogue a few times, though. It's all well-made, but look... I don't need a big long speech if, at the end, you're just going to tell me that I need to go find six cat teeth.

(And then the cat teeth don't even drop 1:1 despite being able to see teeth on every single cat model in the world, but that's sort of beside the point.)

@Jeff said:

Been playing a chunk of it today. Seems fine. I've already caught myself totally ignoring quest giver dialogue a few times, though. It's all well-made, but look... I don't need a big long speech if, at the end, you're just going to tell me that I need to go find six cat teeth.

(And then the cat teeth don't even drop 1:1 despite being able to see teeth on every single cat model in the world, but that's sort of beside the point.)

That's a problem I mentioned when I went to a SWTOR focus group thing. I just felt fatigued and it made me not want to pick up quests. Having said that I really enjoy the class quest lines.

@sirdesmond said:

I've played a bit myself and pretty much right after creating my character I knew it wasn't for me. I got a cool, little dialogue in the new Bioware standard of full voice-acting and cinematic camera angles only to get sent out to active three security consoles and fight some generic bad guys with my generic bar of skills along the bottom and watch some bars fill up. It's just another boring, time-wasting MMO with good voice-acting and a few interesting camera angles. No thanks.

This.

I was initially quite optimistic, the intro videos got me giggling of excitement but then the combat starts and I remember why I quit WOW. Been said many times, but I don't think it's an excuse not to evolve the gameplay because WOW does it one way. What makes me sad is that I think it's gonna be a while until we get a MMO release with budget like this.

Might pick it up for the story when I've burned through my back catalogue, but I doubt I'll play longer that the packed-in days.

I only start ignoring the chat when I'm chatting with friends at the same time.

Which is a bit of a mismatch with this. in MMOs I tend to turn on some music or the bombcast while I'm playing, but now I can't do that. The music is good, but it's not what I'm used to.

I have no idea how they think this game is going to work with a paid subscription when Guild Wars 2 is free, and kinda seems a lot better.

I just don't see it lasting long with the subscription model.

• Talk to quest giver
• Make dialogue choices your Companion will like or dislike
• Make a moral choice
• Kill 10 rats

The quest conversations and storyline of your class and character are what bring you to SW:TOR, and it's kind of at odds with a stock MMO mindset of 'pick up all the quests you can and rush through them as fast as possible to hit the level cap' that is prevalent in current MMO communities. The bottom line for my mind is that if you are the kind that obsessively (or unconsciously) skips through dialogue a lot is that you'll find SW:TOR kind of thin. A lot of the content is the conversation system itself and there honestly aren't really that many quests to do in a zone, nor are they any more or less compelling than any other stock MMO, which goes double for the combat and underlying mechanics. It helps that the story and characters can be compelling enough that I was kinda excited to see what happened next.

It's easy to take the route of saying it's a stock MMO with BioWare's signature dialogue mechanics and quality voice acting, storytelling and likeable support characters, but in all honesty that is exactly what this game is. If you love the latter and you're cool with it being the former you could have fun with it, at least for the first 30 days you get for buying the box. It's not a genre-bender and it doesn't try to be at all, since most of the mechanics and features are ripped from modern western MMO conventions and ticks all the standard boxes. The unique part is the storytelling and dialogue and for the most part they are both pretty top notch and match the loveable cheesy Star-Wars-y feel you'd expect and want, and some of the moral choices are fairly satisfying, at least on the Imperial side. It's not a bad MMO, but if you think MMOs are intrinsically bad this isn't out to change or blow your mind.

@Sooty said:

I have no idea how they think this game is going to work with a paid subscription when Guild Wars 2 is free, and kinda seems a lot better.

I just don't see it lasting long with the subscription model.

The same way that every other MMO has lasted with Guild Wars 1 on the market?

People who have a steady income will pay 15 bucks a month for a game (It's not like I don't spend more then that on tradional video games anyway.) Not to mention guild wars 2 isin't even in Beta yet, so any judgements on it's quality are based on what they said and short gameplay demos.

I've got nothing wrong with Guild wars 2, but it being a "Star wars tor" killer as is silly as Tor being a WoW killer.

So I played a bit now. Got through the prologue with a female bounty hunter and a male smuggler (voiced by Jennifer Hale and Nolan North respectively if I were to make a guess). The smuggler combat actually is somewhat interesting if not really that challenging at these levels. The biggest problem is camera control as you roll into cover and lose track of who is shooting at you. The bounty hunter is more straight forward click and hit keys as your powers refresh. The character story lines seem decent but I think the sudden onslaught of information at level 10 can be a bit much as everything opens up to being MMOish (raids, crafting, etc.). Its hard to say if the sort of impetus for your classes carries forward after the beginning after all MMO beginnings seem to be the tightest part in most cases.

@SamDrugbringer said:

@Sooty said:

I have no idea how they think this game is going to work with a paid subscription when Guild Wars 2 is free, and kinda seems a lot better.

I just don't see it lasting long with the subscription model.

The same way that every other MMO has lasted with Guild Wars 1 on the market?

People who have a steady income will pay 15 bucks a month for a game (It's not like I don't spend more then that on tradional video games anyway.) Not to mention guild wars 2 isin't even in Beta yet, so any judgements on it's quality are based on what they said and short gameplay demos.

I've got nothing wrong with Guild wars 2, but it being a "Star wars tor" killer as is silly as Tor being a WoW killer.

This is a different time to when Guild Wars originally came out, though. Look at the other MMOs that have all gone down the free to play route lately.

The traditional subscription model is going away.

As for the quality; I've played Guild Wars 2 and I've played TOR, from the short time I played both Guild Wars 2 felt better and more fun to play.

@WinterSnowblind: I think EA would be outright idiotic if they didn't plan a free-to-play model into this game's design. They've seen the popularity. They know they have a $300 million risk with this game. They will build it to last, and they will build it to last under both models.

@Jeff: Ehhhhhh. I don't disagree. I just think it's hard to hold any role-playing game up to such a standard--massively multiplayer or otherwise. People demand tons of content in their role-playing experiences. I mean, name me one high-profile role-playing game released this year without menial fetch quests. Witcher 2? Plenty of 'em. Skyrim? Check. Dragon Age 2? Practically the whole game. (Ps. can't wait to hoard up some Skag teeth in Borderlands 2 next year, I'm sure it'll suffice many NPC grocery lists)

@endaround: Hale actually plays the female trooper, as well as the main Republic hero character (Satele Shan). Nolan North is absent according to IMDB, sadly. However, fun fact: male Jedi Knight is voiced by David Hayter.

@project343: I know Hale was confirmed for the other roles but it sounds a ton like her. And if that isn't North then someone said "hey could you make this guy sound like Nathan Drake?". But IMBD right now is basically being updated by actors and their agents so until the offical credits come out we won't really know. I mean Kurtwood Smith is clearly in there as an NPC but isn't listed on IMBD. Hell even Grey DeLisle isn't listed there yet.

@Sooty said:

@SamDrugbringer said:

@Sooty said:

I have no idea how they think this game is going to work with a paid subscription when Guild Wars 2 is free, and kinda seems a lot better.

I just don't see it lasting long with the subscription model.

The same way that every other MMO has lasted with Guild Wars 1 on the market?

People who have a steady income will pay 15 bucks a month for a game (It's not like I don't spend more then that on tradional video games anyway.) Not to mention guild wars 2 isin't even in Beta yet, so any judgements on it's quality are based on what they said and short gameplay demos.

I've got nothing wrong with Guild wars 2, but it being a "Star wars tor" killer as is silly as Tor being a WoW killer.

This is a different time to when Guild Wars originally came out, though. Look at the other MMOs that have all gone down the free to play route lately.

The traditional subscription model is going away.

As for the quality; I've played Guild Wars 2 and I've played TOR, from the short time I played both Guild Wars 2 felt better and more fun to play.

All the other MMOs? You mean the failed ones (And a few super old ones, like CoX, which has had a great run but is even older then WoW now.)

I admit, I might be a little defensive on this on account of having dropped 80 bucks on the game (Suicide pact) but I honestly believe there is a place on the market for premium MMOs. I'm one of the few guys in the universe who doesn't like the free model, even though I understand the appeal.

Definitely agree with OP's breakdown. Only thing that I wish they did was not pick factions in the beginning (like Galaxies), cause I really enjoy playing the smuggler (you can kick guys in the BALLS, people!) and don't like that he has to be on the Republic side. The questlines definitely give you the KOTOR experience with the obvious "choose this for good/choose this for evil" path, so it's been fun being a scruffylooking nerfherder only wanting credits.

@SamDrugbringer said:

@Sooty said:

@SamDrugbringer said:

@Sooty said:

I have no idea how they think this game is going to work with a paid subscription when Guild Wars 2 is free, and kinda seems a lot better.

I just don't see it lasting long with the subscription model.

The same way that every other MMO has lasted with Guild Wars 1 on the market?

People who have a steady income will pay 15 bucks a month for a game (It's not like I don't spend more then that on tradional video games anyway.) Not to mention guild wars 2 isin't even in Beta yet, so any judgements on it's quality are based on what they said and short gameplay demos.

I've got nothing wrong with Guild wars 2, but it being a "Star wars tor" killer as is silly as Tor being a WoW killer.

This is a different time to when Guild Wars originally came out, though. Look at the other MMOs that have all gone down the free to play route lately.

The traditional subscription model is going away.

As for the quality; I've played Guild Wars 2 and I've played TOR, from the short time I played both Guild Wars 2 felt better and more fun to play.

All the other MMOs? You mean the failed ones (And a few super old ones, like CoX, which has had a great run but is even older then WoW now.)

I admit, I might be a little defensive on this on account of having dropped 80 bucks on the game (Suicide pact) but I honestly believe there is a place on the market for premium MMOs. I'm one of the few guys in the universe who doesn't like the free model, even though I understand the appeal.

What defines failed? That DC universe one and some other superhero MMO are both free to play now, I'm not saying TOR will fail but I just don't see the subscription model staying around for much longer, I think it's really reasonable to expect TOR to go free to play by 2013.

@Sooty said:

@SamDrugbringer said:

@Sooty said:

@SamDrugbringer said:

@Sooty said:

I have no idea how they think this game is going to work with a paid subscription when Guild Wars 2 is free, and kinda seems a lot better.

I just don't see it lasting long with the subscription model.

The same way that every other MMO has lasted with Guild Wars 1 on the market?

People who have a steady income will pay 15 bucks a month for a game (It's not like I don't spend more then that on tradional video games anyway.) Not to mention guild wars 2 isin't even in Beta yet, so any judgements on it's quality are based on what they said and short gameplay demos.

I've got nothing wrong with Guild wars 2, but it being a "Star wars tor" killer as is silly as Tor being a WoW killer.

This is a different time to when Guild Wars originally came out, though. Look at the other MMOs that have all gone down the free to play route lately.

The traditional subscription model is going away.

As for the quality; I've played Guild Wars 2 and I've played TOR, from the short time I played both Guild Wars 2 felt better and more fun to play.

All the other MMOs? You mean the failed ones (And a few super old ones, like CoX, which has had a great run but is even older then WoW now.)

I admit, I might be a little defensive on this on account of having dropped 80 bucks on the game (Suicide pact) but I honestly believe there is a place on the market for premium MMOs. I'm one of the few guys in the universe who doesn't like the free model, even though I understand the appeal.

What defines failed? That DC universe one and some other superhero MMO are both free to play now, I'm not saying TOR will fail but I just don't see the subscription model staying around for much longer, I think it's really reasonable to expect TOR to go free to play by 2013.

by 2013 Nibiru will have already arrived and we will be ascending to higher planes of existence.

@Sooty said:

@SamDrugbringer said:

@Sooty said:

@SamDrugbringer said:

@Sooty said:

I have no idea how they think this game is going to work with a paid subscription when Guild Wars 2 is free, and kinda seems a lot better.

I just don't see it lasting long with the subscription model.

The same way that every other MMO has lasted with Guild Wars 1 on the market?

People who have a steady income will pay 15 bucks a month for a game (It's not like I don't spend more then that on tradional video games anyway.) Not to mention guild wars 2 isin't even in Beta yet, so any judgements on it's quality are based on what they said and short gameplay demos.

I've got nothing wrong with Guild wars 2, but it being a "Star wars tor" killer as is silly as Tor being a WoW killer.

This is a different time to when Guild Wars originally came out, though. Look at the other MMOs that have all gone down the free to play route lately.

The traditional subscription model is going away.

As for the quality; I've played Guild Wars 2 and I've played TOR, from the short time I played both Guild Wars 2 felt better and more fun to play.

All the other MMOs? You mean the failed ones (And a few super old ones, like CoX, which has had a great run but is even older then WoW now.)

I admit, I might be a little defensive on this on account of having dropped 80 bucks on the game (Suicide pact) but I honestly believe there is a place on the market for premium MMOs. I'm one of the few guys in the universe who doesn't like the free model, even though I understand the appeal.

What defines failed? That DC universe one and some other superhero MMO are both free to play now, I'm not saying TOR will fail but I just don't see the subscription model staying around for much longer, I think it's really reasonable to expect TOR to go free to play by 2013.

I seriously doubt this. Is Warhammer even f2p yet? There's a free trial that never ends, but I don't think it's f2p. If EA hasn't pulled out on Warhammer and made it f2p yet, do you really think they'll make TOR f2p after a year?

Every discussion on TOR graphics I have seen, without exception, comes back around to people talking about 1) Anti-aliasing being disabled in the betas, and 2) only the employees-and-family beta having full HD textures available. I have seen it too many times to believe it is anecdotal or wishful thinking, but we'll find out soon enough on launch day.

@emem said:

If they had combined most of the MMO elements of TOR with the FPS combat from the Jedi Knight games, I would have been a happy man.

While I don't disagree with the awesomeness, g_saberrealisticcombat simply has no place in the Old Republic era. The conceit is hot and cold running cortosis. The PVPers do not have the stomach for a round of Bushido Blade. ;)

It's a BioWare game. Dice will roll. Blades will clank.

@Brackynews: Not sure about the textures, but AA is indeed disabled in the beta.

@Brackynews: I sure hope that there aren't "HD textures." I mean, the game looks great and it's at 36.6gigs on my computer. I sort of don't want that number to be any higher, especially with my Canadian download caps. Sigh.

I have heard talk about these HD textures too.

The biggest tell I've heard is comparing how your character looks in cutscens to their model. They look a LOT better in the dialogue wheel sections.

I couldn't tell until it was pointed out to me. Apparently it's more obvious with tattooed characters.

Yep if anything is anecdotal it's probably that, but it makes logical sense that they can sort out the best assets to use as the very last thing. Easy to gauge how many people are happy and how many aren't with the assets they've delivered. If "Ultra" was even an optional install I think that would suit the majority of people. That's when the "FPS on Macbook Air?" threads start. lol

It's rather appropriate however; I remember the passions surging through the KOTOR forums when they talked about releasing it on one DVD vs. CDs. Care to take bets when the next switch will happen? ;) If hard drives keep going up and Blu-ray BD-R drives go sub $79.... it's the economy Jar-Jar.

Glad my Canadian podunk doesn't have download caps yet (only upstream capped at 60KB/s), but we'll see... digital delivery is approaching ass-pain velocity. (16 gigs for Batman? Did they even ZIP it? O_o)

@Brackynews: Well, my favourite ridiculous game size is The Force Unleashed. It's 30gigs. Not a joke or exaggeration.