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    StarCraft II: Wings of Liberty

    Game » consists of 10 releases. Released Jul 27, 2010

    The first chapter in the StarCraft II trilogy focuses on the struggles of the Terran race, as seen through the eyes of Commander Jim Raynor, leader of the rebel group Raynor's Raiders.

    1.30 notes live- Nerfs all around!

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    raiz265

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    #51  Edited By raiz265
    @strangone said:
    " Also the OP is missing some important changes:   - An alert has been added when MULEs expire.- An alert has been added when the Chrono Boost buff expires.- An alert has been added when the Spawn Larva buff expires.  I don't like this at all. Any other thoughts? "
    Afaik it's not going to be a sound notification, but one of those little popups to the left of your screen... And seriously, I have never looked at them in my life.  
    Workers also get a notification there if they finish building, but people still manage to mess up their constant production.... I think people are just blowing this way out of proportion again, just like they did with the ingame timer (which actually would be enough by itself to time inject larva and stuff correctly)
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    sweep

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    #52  Edited By sweep  Moderator

    Stim nerf was needed, will be interesting to see how this effects high-level play. 
     
    As for the High Templars... I don't understand this at all. That unit was already kinda useless out the gate, now even more so :S

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    imsh_pl

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    #53  Edited By imsh_pl

    What the fuck?
     
    No more archon toilets?
     
    NO MORE KHAYDARIN AMULET!?
     
    Every other race's spellcasters can get a starting energy upgrade, WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU REMOVE IT FOR THE RACE WHICH NEEDS IT THE MOST!?

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    Thule

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    #54  Edited By Thule

    I'd suggest no one starts raging until the patch goes live. Remember, this is PTR. Last time I saw the fungal nerf in PTR where it couldn't hit air anymore, I was pretty sure that it wouldn't go live and behold it didn't. 
    Right now, I'm also pretty sure that the Khaydarin amulet removal won't go live.

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    imsh_pl

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    #55  Edited By imsh_pl

    Ok. I've calmed down a bit.
     
    Here's my view on the changes
     

    PROTOSS

    1.Vortex change
    The mothership nerf is terrible, and not even needed. People have just started using motherships in the late game lately, and it turned out to be a pretty decent end-game spellcaster. The vortex allowed you to get your army into position, and use AoE effects such as storms or archon lightings to add more damage to your opponent's army.
     
    I don't really get this change. It's not like the archon toilet was 'overpowered' or something; it was a late game tactic which made people actually consider going for mothership in the late game (since it's really not cost effective earlier). Also, people had to go into a completely different tech route to get enough archons to make a difference, and your opponent had enough time to prepare a desirable end game army composition as well. Now motherships will be only used to mass recall your army out of trouble, meaning they will just remain stationary in your base. Yay.
     
    The archon toilet was pretty much the only reason the motherships were used ever. Yes, we saw the occasional recalls, but they weren't used nearly as often.
     
    2.Khaydarin amulet gone
    What the fuck Blizzard.
     
    Seriously, you've just forced every PvT and PvZ game to have even more colossi. 
     
    Want to deal with the terran bioball? Sorry, but you'll have to keep your templars protected until the next huge battle so they have enough energy for a storm, only to die to a handful of emps (which have greater range than storm) beforehand.  
    Or you could just build 2 robos and keep pumping colossi.
    Also you'll have no way to deal with the terran drops other than building a billion cannons at your every base.
     
    3.Zealot charge effective at last 
    This change is actually good. I hated it when my zealots kept trying to catch up with the terran forces only to not hit them when they were close.
     
    TERRAN
    1.Battlecruiser speed increased
    We don't really see many battlecruisers. And I know we'd like to. So this is good.
     
    2.Bunker build time increased
    This is good. A bunker or two in a zerg's base could really fuck them up early game. The 100% refund didn't help either. And it's not like terrans have problems against early game attacks (chuckle).
     
    3.Stim research time increased
    Helps slow down early terran pushes at least a bit. Again, terrans don't have problems against early game attacks (chuckle), so this won't really hurt their defense.
     

    ZERG

    1.Infestor health buff
    I don't really know how zerg feel about this problem, but I can't really tell as I'm a protoss player. But at this point I'd suspect that every zerg buff is good.
     
    2.Fungal growth duration decreased
    I don't really think this will change the matchups tremendously. As far as I'm concerned, in TvZs the fungal growth was used to lock the bioballs in place so banelings could hit them, but really only about 2 seconds of terran staying in one place allowed the banelings to catch up to them. I don't really know how much of a problem muta harass is in ZvZ and I don't really go gateway or fenix heavy in PvZ. Moving on.
     
    3.Fungal growth is a projectile
    Don't see how this changes anything in any way. Maybe marines can stim out before it hits, but I don't really think this will be a huge change.
     
    THE MAPS
    Removing the rush maps and LT is great, but I think Blizzard still doesn't get it. We don't want metalopolis size maps with different layouts/terrain. We want huge macro maps seen on the GSTL, with 16+expansions and easy to take early bases. I think that while the new maps are definitely better, we'll still end up with the same problems: macro games just end too early because there are not enough expansions on the map. Players know that a map has only so many bases and they don't even have the option to play a nice long macro game simply because they'll run out of places to mine. The new maps are still too small.
     
    While I understand this is PTR I still hope Blizzard will realize how stupid removing the amulet and archon toilets would be.
     
     
    EDIT:Ok, I agree that motherships are bad not because they're having the archon toilet removed but because they're not very useful in general. However I still think the damage after vortex change is stupid. It makes motherships even less viable.
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    Bwast

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    #56  Edited By Bwast
    @imsh_pl said:
    "It's not like the archon toilet was 'overpowered' or something"
    You can kill ~100 supply in 3-4 seconds. It is incredibly overpowered and should be nerfed. 
     
      
     
    Goes from 150 supply to 53 in seconds. Not overpowered.
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    metal_mills

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    #57  Edited By metal_mills

    So they still aren't going to change protoss doing 4 gates like every single game just massing stalkers? Great, thanks blizzard. In fact with the changes I see it happening MORE.

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    DocHaus

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    #58  Edited By DocHaus
    Oh god they nerfed [my race] I am never playing this game ever again!
     
    *continues playing game*
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    Thule

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    #59  Edited By Thule
    @imsh_pl said:

    " Ok. I've calmed down a bit.
     
    Here's my view on the changes
     

    PROTOSS

    1.Vortex change
    The mothership nerf is terrible, and not even needed. People have just started using motherships in the late game lately, and it turned out to be a pretty decent end-game spellcaster. The vortex allowed you to get your army into position, and use AoE effects such as storms or archon lightings to add more damage to your opponent's army.
     
    I don't really get this change. It's not like the archon toilet was 'overpowered' or something; it was a late game tactic which made people actually consider going for mothership in the late game (since it's really not cost effective earlier). Also, people had to go into a completely different tech route to get enough archons to make a difference, and your opponent had enough time to prepare a desirable end game army composition as well. Now motherships will be only used to mass recall your army out of trouble, meaning they will just remain stationary in your base. Yay.
     
    The archon toilet was pretty much the only reason the motherships were used ever. Yes, we saw the occasional recalls, but they weren't used nearly as often.


    It was a fun gimmick and it wasn't going to come up in real games much, but it was also incredibly overpowered. You shouldn't be able to defeat 50-100 supply with a few AoE's just because the spell vomits everything out on a single pixel. The mothership is kinda crap because it's a slow and shitty Arbiter, not because it can't do the Archon toilet anymore.
     

    2.Khaydarin amulet gone
    What the fuck Blizzard.
     
    Seriously, you've just forced every PvT and PvZ game to have even more colossi. 
     
    Want to deal with the terran bioball? Sorry, but you'll have to keep your templars protected until the next huge battle so they have enough energy for a storm, only to die to a handful of emps (which have greater range than storm) beforehand.  
    Or you could just build 2 robos and keep pumping colossi.
    Also you'll have no way to deal with the terran drops other than building a billion cannons at your every base.

    I agree, that this change isn't a very good one. I think that Protosses moving away from Colossi was a good thing. I think that Blizzard considering recently warped in Templars to be too strong, but I don't think this change will do alot of good to the matchups where Templars were finally being considered for use.
     

    3.Zealot charge effective at last 
    This change is actually good. I hated it when my zealots kept trying to catch up with the terran forces only to not hit them when they were close.

    Good, it was kinda sad seeing them charge and hit nothing but air.
     

    TERRAN
    1.Battlecruiser speed increased
    We don't really see many battlecruisers. And I know we'd like to. So this is good.

    Good, I guess? BC's are a rare sight, though that may just be due to Terran's tendency to stay on 2 base for way too long.
     

    2.Bunker build time increased
    This is good. A bunker or two in a zerg's base could really fuck them up early game. The 100% refund didn't help either. And it's not like terrans have problems against early game attacks (chuckle).

    As a Zerg I approve of this change, it'll give me more time to respond when Terran bunkers me. Though the most infuriating thing(Salvage) still needs to be adressed. You shouldn't be able to pressure your opponent without some cost.
     

    3.Stim research time increased
    Helps slow down early terran pushes at least a bit. Again, terrans don't have problems against early game attacks (chuckle), so this won't really hurt their defense.

    Good, this will give zerg a bit more time to respond to a Terran push. I don't think it'll impact too much, considering the Terran bioball will still be powerful. However, I don't think that this adresses the Marine as a unit yet, considering how cost-efficient and powerful it is.
     

    ZERG

    1.Infestor health buff
    I don't really know how zerg feel about this problem, but I can't really tell as I'm a protoss player. But at this point I'd suspect that every zerg buff is good.
    The health buff is nice, though I still don't understand why Infestors are Armored, yet have no armor to start off with. They can now survive 3 tank shots instead of 2, so that's cool I guess.
     

    2.Fungal growth duration decreased
    I don't really think this will change the matchups tremendously. As far as I'm concerned, in TvZs the fungal growth was used to lock the bioballs in place so banelings could hit them, but really only about 2 seconds of terran staying in one place allowed the banelings to catch up to them. I don't really know how much of a problem muta harass is in ZvZ and I don't really go gateway or fenix heavy in PvZ. Moving on.

    It's actually a pretty big change. Normally Terrans could counter Fungal play with alot of Medivacs, but considering the damage is dealt much faster now, it means that almost all the marines will die, before being healed. This means that well placed fungals could decimate bio play. I have my doubts about this change making it through the PTR, considering Fungal was a pretty balanced spell.
     

    3.Fungal growth is a projectile
    Don't see how this changes anything in any way. Maybe marines can stim out before it hits, but I don't really think this will be a huge change.

    It's also a pretty big change. It'll require more skill to effectively use fungal. Stalkers, marines, Phoenix and muta can now(micro'd properly) all evade Fungal. The time decrease can also cause alot of frustration against heavy Phoenix plays, where normally the 8 second timer could be used to hold phoenix down, while the Queens and Hydras moved in for the kill. With the time reduced in half, it'll mean Phoenixes will be much more effective against Zerg.
     

    THE MAPS
    Removing the rush maps and LT is great, but I think Blizzard still doesn't get it. We don't want metalopolis size maps with different layouts/terrain. We want huge macro maps seen on the GSTL, with 16+expansions and easy to take early bases. I think that while the new maps are definitely better, we'll still end up with the same problems: macro games just end too early because there are not enough expansions on the map. Players know that a map has only so many bases and they don't even have the option to play a nice long macro game simply because they'll run out of places to mine. The new maps are still too small.

    I'm just glad there are new maps to play on. Ive been playing since early beta(April/May-ish, I think) and the maps were really becoming a drag. The new maps might be more or less terrible than the ones removed, but we'll figure that out over time. But for now: yay!
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    kyrieee

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    #60  Edited By kyrieee

    Stop emoing so much. The amulet was ridiculously strong, it's an even better upgrade than stim. In the hand of a good player it practically gives total immunity to drops as long as you place pylons properly. In a 200 vs 200 fight the templars you use aren't just ones you warped in 5 seconds ago.

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    Pibo47

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    #61  Edited By Pibo47
    @Hennet_sim said:
    " Protoss High Templar are going to be kinda worthless now with out energy come on right out to do storms. "
    Yeah, like...HT is gonna be fucked. Sooo uncool. Oh well, i needed some new strats anyways lol.
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    imsh_pl

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    #62  Edited By imsh_pl
    @Bwast said:

    " @imsh_pl said:

    "It's not like the archon toilet was 'overpowered' or something"

    You can kill ~100 supply in 3-4 seconds. It is incredibly overpowered and should be nerfed. 
     
      
     Goes from 150 supply to 53 in seconds. Not overpowered. "
    Yeah, because obviously every late game terran army consists purely of bio focres and every late game protoss army has 12 archons in it.
     
    EDIT:Like Thule said, the archon toilet is more of a gimmick and isn't really used in the pro scene (simply because 1 ghost [EDIT: 3 ghosts, apparently] leaves all the archons with 10 hit points, NP can control the mothership - it's too risky). If your opponent still has a bio or roach/hydra army while you are on archon and mothership tech then they are not very good.
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    kyrieee

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    #63  Edited By kyrieee

     If it's never used then what's your complaint? You can still vortex stuff, what you can't do is insta kill infinity supply with splash damage units.
    Secondly, you're wrong, it is used. Not in every game, but it's far from a rarity. When it is used it's overpowered. 

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    HaltIamReptar

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    #64  Edited By HaltIamReptar
    @strangone said:
    " @HaltIamReptar said:

    " @strangone said:

    " Also the OP is missing some important changes:   - An alert has been added when MULEs expire.- An alert has been added when the Chrono Boost buff expires.- An alert has been added when the Spawn Larva buff expires.  I don't like this at all. Any other thoughts? "
    Those are helpful for everybody.  What's not to like?  Also.  I still think all of these changes are madness. "
    What's not to like is that it removes an important element of the game, one that helps to separate players of different skills.
    You're exaggerating.
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    jorbear

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    #65  Edited By jorbear

    Stim is even longer? 
    :(

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    Donos

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    #66  Edited By Donos

    Protoss changes: Good, those things were broken before.
     
    Terran Changes: Meh, same difference
     
    Zerg changes: Someone listened to State of the Game.

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    wchigo

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    #67  Edited By wchigo
    @imsh_pl said: 
    Yeah, because obviously every late game terran army consists purely of bio focres and every late game protoss army has 12 archons in it.  EDIT:Like Thule said, the archon toilet is more of a gimmick and isn't really used in the pro scene (simply because 1 ghost leaves all the archons with 10 hit points, NP can control the mothership - it's too risky). If your opponent still has a bio or roach/hydra army while you are on archon and mothership tech then they are not very good. "
     
    That's actually incorrect. A single EMP removes 100 shield energy, so it's not quite as bad as you say. 
     
    I don't like to overreact to this kind of stuff, because as previously mentioned all of this is just on the PTR and aren't guaranteed to make it live. Certainly warping in Templar with enough energy to storm might be a bit too strong (you can get energy upgrades for other spellcasters, but you usually don't get them as fast persé). but removing the upgrade entirely seems like going too far in the other direction. I mentioned that perhaps something like having the upgrade give HT only an extra 10/15 energy upon training (or alternately, keep the upgrade the same but raise the energy cost of storm by 10-15) so that you have to wait a little bit after warping in to cast storm, but not as long as you would if the upgrade didn't exist at all. 
     
    Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
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    LegalBagel

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    #68  Edited By LegalBagel

    We'll see if the Amulet removal stays.  It prevents the warp prism -> storm your drones move and the ability to warp in a couple to change the course of a battle, but I don't think it's that devastating as long as Protoss remembers to adapt to it by warping in Templar in advance and protecting them.  But it definitely changes the structure of how Protoss will use them entirely.
     
    Wierdly, I think this will decrease the use of Archon - as Templar that use their storm won't be insta-Archon-ed if you're going to have to wait to storm again regardless.

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    imsh_pl

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    #69  Edited By imsh_pl
    @kyrieee said:
    "  If it's never used then what's your complaint? You can still vortex stuff, what you can't do is insta kill infinity supply with splash damage units.
    Let me rephrase this for you.
     
    When high-level players use the vortex, they tend to throw their 4 archons inside. This is the only kind of "archon toilet" you'll see in a pro level game.
     
    The archon toilet presented in the above video is a gimmick, and isn't used in high-level play simply because it's not easy to tech there (10+ archons) and also because of the reasons I mentioned earlier.
     
    My point is, removing the damage after the vortex is not needed, because archons dealing splash damage after the vortex finishes have not been a problem in high level games so far.
     
    @kyrieee said:
    "  Secondly, you're wrong, it is used. Not in every game, but it's far from a rarity. When it is used it's overpowered.  "

    I'd like to see a replay/video of that, please. Preferably from the GSL, but a different tournament wouldn't hurt either.
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    raiz265

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    #70  Edited By raiz265
    @imsh_pl: Afaik Kiwikaki did it in some match, no idea where, when and against whom he did it though. :P
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    Ben_H

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    #71  Edited By Ben_H
    @raiz265 said:
    " @imsh_pl: Afaik Kiwikaki did it in some match, no idea where, when and against whom he did it though. :P "
    It was featured on a Day9 daily at the end of a replay.  Kiwi does it a lot.  But again, he usually only uses 4-5 archons and uses it when he sees an opportunity.  He doesn't force it like a lot of people try to do.
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    audiosnag

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    #72  Edited By audiosnag
    @kyrieee said:

    " Stop emoing so much. The amulet was ridiculously strong, it's an even better upgrade than stim. In the hand of a good player it practically gives total immunity to drops as long as you place pylons properly. In a 200 vs 200 fight the templars you use aren't just ones you warped in 5 seconds ago. "

    Immunity to drops? Because when a storm goes down, the Terran bio has to stand there, right? They aren't able to stim and easily run out from under it while they get healed right?
    It's a great counter to drops yes, immunity is an exaggeration. It takes forever to tech to and it's expensive. I don't think I've ever heard anybody, pros or otherwise complain that it's overpowered. 
    If this change ends up going through we're gonna see even MORE Colossi then we already do. This is all around a dumb nerf.
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    Spectreman

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    #73  Edited By Spectreman

    The archon toilet  noooo..... :(    

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    Donos

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    #74  Edited By Donos
    @audiosnag said:
    " @kyrieee said:

    " Stop emoing so much. The amulet was ridiculously strong, it's an even better upgrade than stim. In the hand of a good player it practically gives total immunity to drops as long as you place pylons properly. In a 200 vs 200 fight the templars you use aren't just ones you warped in 5 seconds ago. "

    Immunity to drops? Because when a storm goes down, the Terran bio has to stand there, right? They aren't able to stim and easily run out from under it while they get healed right? It's a great counter to drops yes, immunity is an exaggeration. It takes forever to tech to and it's expensive. I don't think I've ever heard anybody, pros or otherwise complain that it's overpowered.  If this change ends up going through we're gonna see even MORE Colossi then we already do. This is all around a dumb nerf. "
    I think the only reason you haven't heard complaints is that everybody gave up on this ever getting fixed, and I'm guessing you don't have that wide a pool of people to draw from. What it comes down to is that high templar are already incredibly useful, and the combination of warp and amulet just gave them an abusive ability that neither zerg nor terran can match.
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    Jeffsekai

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    #75  Edited By Jeffsekai

    Infestor change is retarded. 
     
    The mothership change is needed.

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    amir90

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    #76  Edited By amir90

    there goes my high templars :/

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    Spectreman

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    #77  Edited By Spectreman

    HT will be rare like the ripplers are after your nerf. Zerg cry is ruining all the cool units in SC2.

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    mrv321

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    #78  Edited By mrv321

    Can I ask a question? How come every other spellcaster gets starting energy ( Ghost and infestor ) yet the HT gets it removed, the only reason it was used so much is because our starting units suck... they are meat shields for the Colossus and HT's. A 3-3 Marine OWNS late game. Zerg units are cheap and effective. Protoss, My Zealots even with charge DIE instantly even to a small group of stimmed marines, My stalkers fall to a small group or Maraders... The ONLY thing that keeps toss in the game is our Colossus which is short term and our HT. All Terran need to do is make 8 or so Vikkings and our colossus are gone to which we'd fall back to our HT's now that's not an oppetunity we'll what defeat them using our Mothership oh wait that was nerfed because it could be abused in LITRALLY one situation. How about removing the abiligy for the Medivacs to carry Massive units to stop thor drops because thor drops have fewer counter to the mothership.
     
    Zerg deserve a buff to be honest, they are underpowered. Protoss colossus need a slight nerd ( attack upgrade on the colossus only doing 1 extra instead of two ). Terran need a rebalance. Siege tanks and given extra range with sight will stop MASSIVE turrtling and Hellions costing a minute amount of gas ( 25). You have no idea how diffucult it is to break a terran on meteropolis late game. Let's think for a moment about CHEESE.
     
    1. Zerg has six pool, annoying but if you surrive it their eco is so far behind you win.
    2. Protoss has the Zealot/cannon  rush, in which their tech is so far behind you win.
    3. Terran has Hellion, which doesn't sack eco/army and helps tech, since it requires no gas they go straight into their second cheese their Banshees which since their foe let's say Z/P have no tier 1 detection and are so far behind they can't afford detection IF they manage to survive the terran has managed to tech up to Medivacs and Siege tanks/thor and now can turtle with a huge advantage and auto-win.

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    #79  Edited By Donos
    @mrv321 said:

    "3. Terran has Hellion, which doesn't sack eco/army and helps tech, since it requires no gas they go straight into their second cheese their Banshees which since their foe let's say Z/P have no tier 1 detection and are so far behind they can't afford detection IF they manage to survive the terran has managed to tech up to Medivacs and Siege tanks/thor and now can turtle with a huge advantage and auto-win. "

    Lets see... Hellions aren't cheese, neither are banshees, harassment and cheese are completely different things. Terran doesn't lose economy because they're not rushing to get those units out like the protoss and zerg you just described. Zerg and Protoss do have T1 detection from buildings, and Cloaked banshees are T2 plus an upgrade, so there's no excuse for you not to have an observer/overseer in time regardless. Turtling is nothing special, it's just giving the other player the entire map and seeing if they know how to kill you with it.
     
    Once again, High Templars lost amulet, not storm. If you really can't plan 30 seconds ahead to have their energy ready, you don't deserve to win. Zerg and Terran already have to do that, and have to buy an energy upgrade just to match High Templars.
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    #80  Edited By mrv321
    @Donos said:

    " @mrv321 said:

    "3. Terran has Hellion, which doesn't sack eco/army and helps tech, since it requires no gas they go straight into their second cheese their Banshees which since their foe let's say Z/P have no tier 1 detection and are so far behind they can't afford detection IF they manage to survive the terran has managed to tech up to Medivacs and Siege tanks/thor and now can turtle with a huge advantage and auto-win. "

    Lets see... Hellions aren't cheese, neither are banshees, harassment and cheese are completely different things. Terran doesn't lose economy because they're not rushing to get those units out like the protoss and zerg you just described. Zerg and Protoss do have T1 detection from buildings, and Cloaked banshees are T2 plus an upgrade, so there's no excuse for you not to have an observer/overseer in time regardless. Turtling is nothing special, it's just giving the other player the entire map and seeing if they know how to kill you with it.   If you really can't plan 30 seconds ahead to have their energy ready, you don't deserve to win. Zerg and Terran already have to do that, and have to buy an energy upgrade just to match High Templars. "
    The scan is free, crono boost late game is useless, either all three races get tier 1 detection like the scan or none of them do. I see no reason why Banshees are so much worse in Blizzards opinion NOT to give the other two races a detection unit. And think about it, ALL protoss MUST use observer, ALL zerg MUST get Obs, few Terran get Raven. If I go Stargate+templar, since I cannot use templar to counter drops anymore I NEED the stargate, meaning I can't go colossus. 
     
    Think about it. If I as protoss had a scan I could not require the Robo and VARY up my play style so much which is more fun, but let me just say reply to your reply seperatly
     
     ' Hellions aren't cheese, neither are banshees, harassment and cheese are completely different things.'- Hellions aren't cheese I agree, nor are Banshees, but speed hellions into Banshees are. It's that SPECIFIC thing that's cheese, something that could is NULIFIED completely by Hellion costing 25 gas.

    ' Zerg and Protoss do have T1 detection from buildings' Doesn't terran have a similar thing called Missile turrets? Ok let's see
     
    Missile Turret vs Cannon vs Spore
    Raven vs Obs vs Over
     
    So, terran gets the same detection HOWEVER they get scan on top. Why? Also WHY am I forced to get my forge 4 minutes into the game, while terran because of scan doesn't need a engineering one? Are you saying the standard protoss opening should be pilon, gateway, forge? Also. The scan allows EVERY terran to scout no matter what, let's say I'm trying to hide something, one scan. No matter how many cannons I get he WILL allways scan. It's harder for Toss and Zerg to hide tech because we are tethered to creep and pilons also.
     
    ' so there's no excuse for you not to have an observer/overseer in time regardless.' AFTER Loosing countless probes and more I don't ave 500 minerals to waste on detection, and why should I be forced down robo bay route. I don't force the terran down tech lab starport with DT's.
     
    ' If you really can't plan 30 seconds ahead to have their energy ready ' Do Drops take 30 seconds? No, I don't have PF's to defend from drops. I need my amulet, getting rid of amulet is effectively like getting rid of your planetary fortress.
     
    '
    . Zerg and Terran already have to do that, and have to buy an energy upgrade just to match High Templars. " You do realize the Zerg, Protoss and Terran all have starting energy upgrades. The Terrans is the cheapest and quickest to build. The Amulet costs the most and takes the longest to build... so why is it being removed? Am I not allowed to counter drops now? Should I just allow your stimed marines to kill everything just like my Zealot would do without your Planetary Fortress. Remove that and we'll talk about balance.
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    #81  Edited By audiosnag
    @Donos said:
    " @audiosnag said:
    " @kyrieee said:

    " Stop emoing so much. The amulet was ridiculously strong, it's an even better upgrade than stim. In the hand of a good player it practically gives total immunity to drops as long as you place pylons properly. In a 200 vs 200 fight the templars you use aren't just ones you warped in 5 seconds ago. "

    Immunity to drops? Because when a storm goes down, the Terran bio has to stand there, right? They aren't able to stim and easily run out from under it while they get healed right? It's a great counter to drops yes, immunity is an exaggeration. It takes forever to tech to and it's expensive. I don't think I've ever heard anybody, pros or otherwise complain that it's overpowered.  If this change ends up going through we're gonna see even MORE Colossi then we already do. This is all around a dumb nerf. "
    I think the only reason you haven't heard complaints is that everybody gave up on this ever getting fixed, and I'm guessing you don't have that wide a pool of people to draw from. What it comes down to is that high templar are already incredibly useful, and the combination of warp and amulet just gave them an abusive ability that neither zerg nor terran can match. "
    Hmm I dunno about not having a wide pool of people to draw from. There's a lot of very vocal people who play this game and anything else people perceive as OP whether it is or not is brought up. Loudly. To say HT's let Toss be abusive in ways Z or T, especially T can't match is sorta crazy. It's powerful yes but it's not something that needs to be addressed right now IMO. Just as an experiment I tried searching for High Templar Overpowered and HT OP at teamliquid and got zilch. 
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    #82  Edited By Ben_H
    @audiosnag said:
    " @Donos said:
    " @audiosnag said:
    " @kyrieee said:

    " Stop emoing so much. The amulet was ridiculously strong, it's an even better upgrade than stim. In the hand of a good player it practically gives total immunity to drops as long as you place pylons properly. In a 200 vs 200 fight the templars you use aren't just ones you warped in 5 seconds ago. "

    Immunity to drops? Because when a storm goes down, the Terran bio has to stand there, right? They aren't able to stim and easily run out from under it while they get healed right? It's a great counter to drops yes, immunity is an exaggeration. It takes forever to tech to and it's expensive. I don't think I've ever heard anybody, pros or otherwise complain that it's overpowered.  If this change ends up going through we're gonna see even MORE Colossi then we already do. This is all around a dumb nerf. "
    I think the only reason you haven't heard complaints is that everybody gave up on this ever getting fixed, and I'm guessing you don't have that wide a pool of people to draw from. What it comes down to is that high templar are already incredibly useful, and the combination of warp and amulet just gave them an abusive ability that neither zerg nor terran can match. "
    Hmm I dunno about not having a wide pool of people to draw from. There's a lot of very vocal people who play this game and anything else people perceive as OP whether it is or not is brought up. Loudly. To say HT's let Toss be abusive in ways Z or T, especially T can't match is sorta crazy. It's powerful yes but it's not something that needs to be addressed right now IMO. Just as an experiment I tried searching for High Templar Overpowered and HT OP at teamliquid and got zilch.  "
    Bingo, that's about perfect.  It never was an issue to begin with.  Storm was slightly OP, but amulet was never complained about and people were beginning to deal with storm anyway by bringing ghosts.  Most people on TL felt that a slight change in damage would fix the storm, not a game-changing nerf that made it so you can't defend drops or re-inforce easily.  How else is a protoss supposed to defend drops?  You can't leave units back because that will weaken your main force.  Building cannons is wasted money for a drop that may or may not happen and most of the time they would be sniped anyway.  Sure you can warp in gateway units but between stim and concussive shell half of them won't do damage before dying.  Saying that you deserve to lose if you let them happen is ridiculous because you can't always scout them, and even if you do they are so fast you may not be able to react in time, especially when an 8 marauder drop can take out a nexus in under 10 seconds. Terran has an equivalent to storm vs Protoss.  it's called the EMP.  You can get a ghost in under 5 minutes and take out all of the shields on every protoss unit in the blast radius.  If storm needs fixing that needs fixing even more.  You don't need tech for it and it can do thousands of points of damage instantly instead of over time. EMP should be made researchable for 200/200 (Same cost) if they want to remove the amulet.  It will put both races on even ground.
     
    What Blizzard needs to do is nerf the colossus and buff everything else to make up for it.  It is ridiculous that a Protoss should have to use a single unit in every matchup just to be viable.  The first 3 gateway units should be able to keep up with their zerg and terran equivalent yet in even numbers they get slaughtered.
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    #83  Edited By Donos
    @Ben_H:  Protoss can defend drops exactly the same way Terran and Zerg already have to. If you think building defenses and leaving units behind sucks, yeah it does, but that's part of the game. Besides, you've already got the best defensive structure in the game.
     
    As for EMP, think about it for a second would you? To get a Templar with storm, you buy the upgrade, warp it in, then let it charge up. So an upgrade and 30something seconds of waiting. To get a Ghost with EMP, you buy an energy upgrade, start building the ghost, and after the 40whatever seconds it takes to build a ghost, you have it with enough energy for an EMP. Without amulet, High Templars and Ghosts have equal abilities both requiring one upgrade, and the HT is still ready first.
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    #84  Edited By imsh_pl
    @Donos said:

    " @Ben_H:  Protoss can defend drops exactly the same way Terran and Zerg already have to. If you think building defenses and leaving units behind sucks, yeah it does, but that's part of the game. Besides, you've already got the best defensive structure in the game. As for EMP, think about it for a second would you? To get a Templar with storm, you buy the upgrade, warp it in, then let it charge up. So an upgrade and 30something seconds of waiting. To get a Ghost with EMP, you buy an energy upgrade, start building the ghost, and after the 40whatever seconds it takes to build a ghost, you have it with enough energy for an EMP. Without amulet, High Templars and Ghosts have equal abilities both requiring one upgrade, and the HT is still ready first. "

     
    Let's do a little math, shall we?

    1.Build a barracks (60 sec) > build a ghost academy (40 sec) > build a ghost (40 sec) > wait 30 sec> EMP ready  total: 2 min 50 sec
    2.Build a gateway (65 sec) > build a cyber core (50 sec) > build twilight council (50 sec) > build a templar archives (50 sec) > warp in HTs (instant) > research storm (110 sec) > storm ready  total: 5 min 25 sec (!)
     
    Also, have you by any chance noticed how every single player morphs their templars with used energy into archons?
     
    Have you?
     
    Well, it turns out that templars are too fragile to survive long enough to get their energy regenerated. They can't deal damage, so every time you summon a templar you do it knowing he will be one use only. 
     
    Removing the amulet would make it impossible for protoss to deal with drops. Zerg have creep so they can send a pack of lings to the attacked expo. I won't either mention Terran and their expansions which defend themselves.
    Without the templar upgrade it would be impossible for protoss to defend against harassment in any way other than making a billion cannons at every expansion.
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    #85  Edited By Donos
    @imsh_pl: It's pretty clear you've had completely different experiences from me playing and watching this game, so I won't bother arguing with you. I'd just encourage you toplay some more games before you decide that protoss absolutely positiviely cannot defend without HTs, or keep them alive for more than 5 seconds.I seem to be able to.
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    imsh_pl

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    #86  Edited By imsh_pl
    @Donos: Ah, yes. The good old 'use more skill'  "argument".
     
    EDIT:@Donos said:
    " @imsh_pl: It's pretty clear you've had completely different experiences from me playing and watching this game, so I won't bother arguing with you. I'd just encourage you toplay some more games before you decide that protoss absolutely positiviely cannot defend without HTs, or keep them alive for more than 5 seconds.I seem to be able to. "
    I love how this comes out of a guy who won 6 1v1 ladder games.
     
    Lol.
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    #87  Edited By Spectreman

    Patch 1.40 - Zerg units get adamantium armor. Idra still complains that adamantium is not good enough against siege tanks and colossus.

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    #88  Edited By Ben_H
    @Donos said:

    " @Ben_H:  Protoss can defend drops exactly the same way Terran and Zerg already have to. If you think building defenses and leaving units behind sucks, yeah it does, but that's part of the game. Besides, you've already got the best defensive structure in the game. As for EMP, think about it for a second would you? To get a Templar with storm, you buy the upgrade, warp it in, then let it charge up. So an upgrade and 30something seconds of waiting. To get a Ghost with EMP, you buy an energy upgrade, start building the ghost, and after the 40whatever seconds it takes to build a ghost, you have it with enough energy for an EMP. Without amulet, High Templars and Ghosts have equal abilities both requiring one upgrade, and the HT is still ready first. "

    The ghost isn't about to lose it's energy upgrade though, is it, and you can get it in less than half the time of an HT (Approximately 4-4.5 minutes to get a ghost out from start of the game while still upgrading and producing marines).  And EMP doesn't require research to be usable.  Not to mention ghosts can also attack while templars cannot.  I'll repeat, if they get rid of the amulet, it would only be fair to make EMP researchable for a similar cost to storm so both units are at least on similar ground spellwise.  Storm takes out ~1/2 to 3/4 of the health of a bio unit, EMP takes out 1/2 to 3/4 of the health of a Protoss unit, unless it's huge, which also applies to storm as well.     Without the amulet on HTs, and with the reactor on ghosts, it still takes less time to get a ghost that can EMP out.  An HT takes 5 seconds to warp in and 44 seconds to get the extra 25 energy required to use storm.  A ghost takes 40 seconds to build.  The High Templar also requires 2 rather expensive upgrades to be able to "insta-storm", while the ghost requires one tech and one building.  Not to mention a Protoss player has to build two separate tech paths to both get HTs and get observers, while the Terran gets scans and can get ghosts while still following it's normal tech path.
     
     
    Secondly, zerg can better deal with drops by having much more mobile units (mutas and speedlings), especially on creep and mobile defenses, that can be moved when need be.  When upgraded for the gas cost of 1 HT, Terran's main collection center can kill most drops faster than they can damage it, it can be infinitely repaired, it doesn't take supply away from the main army, and the building has to be there anyway so for a minor cost you are drop-proof and you have an expansion that can hold off medium sized armies when mass repaired, and it can produce workers.  In short, Terran doesn't need to worry about MM drops on expos because PFs can one-shot marines and two-shot marauders.Terran T1 mows through everything Protoss can warp in for immediate defense. Stimmed marauders can basically never be hurt if microed right against zealots or even chargelots. Basically the only valid way to deal with drops without sacrificing main army strength is to intercept with phoenixes before they happen, or sacrifice 2+ warp-ins to maybe hold off the drop.
      
    People will more often suicide HTs than try to recover energy with them because it takes over two minutes of game time, not to mention they have insanely low health and are insanely slow.  If they remove amulet they should at least up the speed so HTs can escape.  You don't need to suicide ghosts or turn it into a 300 gas meatshield because the ghost is a perfectly formidable fighting unit on it's own, with or without EMP.
     
    @imsh_pl
    said:

    " @Donos: Ah, yes. The good old 'use more skill'  "argument". "

    No kidding. How can he tell how good you are.  For all we know, he could be a MMMing Terran who hates storm because he suicides his MMM through a choke point into storms 15 minutes into the game instead of switching over to mech after seeing HTs being produced.  Most smart Terrans have already dealt with HTs by switching units compositions after seeing it instead of forcing MMM into part of the game where it isn't viable anymore or building a Ghost Academy and shutting down templar play altogether. 
     
    Not to mention, who would want to argue to get rid of Khaydarin Amulet when all that would do is force more colossus play, which everyone hates. Throw in some phoenixes and voids into the standard colossus ball, and Protoss is practically immune to vikings while the colossi giggle while melting all the bio, an even mech in some cases.  I guess it'll be back to robo with double starport like I used to do.
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    #89  Edited By audiosnag
    @Donos said:

    " @Ben_H:  Without amulet, High Templars and Ghosts have equal abilities both requiring one upgrade, and the HT is still ready first. "

    Really? Cause last I check Ghosts can cloak when they get in trouble and attack both air and ground. While cloaked.
    HT's can...well they can slowly move away...they have this cool sorta ghost image thing goin on behind them as they move but that doesn't actually do anything. And they can't attack air. Or ground. Or anything. And they take longer. And cost more. So basically If you're in a fight and out of storm your options are: 
    A) Lose two HT's permanently to create an Archon and hope you don't die before you finish warping and hope there's no ghosts around with EMP to completely kill you.
    B) Try to run.
    C) Die.
    See what I'm getting at here?
     
    @Ben_H:
    Pretty much everything you said I agree with. I'm throwing up air highfives. The last thing Toss need are MORE matchups to use Colossi in.
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    #90  Edited By mrv321

    Protoss have 3 options late game
     
    1. Stargate- Except mothership and carriers are useless... so there's no point in getting fleet bacon.
    2. Robo- Good force to deal with MM balls, and even Mech (immortals) good all round, but annoying for terran
    3. HT's- Good upgrades ( Stalkers and Zealot WILL still suck ), they used to deal with drops to... but now you can't really use them.
     
    So you want me to use more Robo units, instead of Variety. How about making Archons less meat  shield more actual attack, making HT's have their amulet and giving ALL races a Base scan when they get Their roach den and cyber. Less robo play=more fun.

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    #91  Edited By Ben_H
    @audiosnag said:
    "
     
    @Ben_H: Pretty much everything you said I agree with. I'm throwing up air highfives. The last thing Toss need are MORE matchups to use Colossi in. "
    *Air high fives back*
     
    @mrv321 said:
    " Protoss have 3 options late game  1. Stargate- Except mothership and carriers are useless... so there's no point in getting fleet bacon. 2. Robo- Good force to deal with MM balls, and even Mech (immortals) good all round, but annoying for terran 3. HT's- Good upgrades ( Stalkers and Zealot WILL still suck ), they used to deal with drops to... but now you can't really use them.  So you want me to use more Robo units, instead of Variety. How about making Archons less meat  shield more actual attack, making HT's have their amulet and giving ALL races a Base scan when they get Their roach den and cyber. Less robo play=more fun. "

    Good list.  I'll use carriers after I've already won but only as a "screw you" to a player who refuses to leave the game even though he's obviously dead.
     
    If Terrans want to complain about HTs I'll happily go back to a rather abusive build comprised mainly of Colossi/phoenix/sentry that I saw INControL do.  It's far more difficult to deal with.  Medivacs don't live through that very well and you can't actually fight back as the vikings die too fast and the colossi tickle all the ground units to death, be it mech or bio.

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