Me, my race, or my opponents?

#1 Posted by pigmartyr (211 posts) -

Things have gotten really tough on the ladder recently and I'm really just trying to figure out what part of my game needs to change. I've been playing protoss regularly and have about 250 wins with them. So recently it just seems every match regardless of how I build, or how fast, I'm getting held off and the game is taking a big swing.  As examples I see a zerg going hatchery first and I build two gateway and get 4 zealots out very quickly to attack. When warp gate is finished he just barely holds off losing two of 3 queens and then I'm swarmed and its gg. I decided no to expand and then couldn't due to being even after the engagement. Another game was me 4 gating into a single base 3 rax terran and again he is barely holding out and countering in a big way.  I did expand and due to my expansion I was behind in units and couldn't effectively hold off his counter attack.
  
It just seems to me like alot of people are figuring out really effective counters to early protoss warpgate aggression and its making it very difficult to play protoss. In your games are you seeing more difficulty playing as protoss, is it my skill level, or is it just the limitations of a protoss early game?

#2 Posted by Ciffy (215 posts) -

Sounds like an oxymoron.  If they're barely holding you off, how do they have enough for a big counter-push?  Maybe you're losing bigger than you think? Have you tried watching the replays to see if they have more than you think they do? 
 
Also, it could be that they're figuring out early aggression... so don't be aggressive?  If you see the zerg getting an early expo, take one yourself?  Just a thought.

#3 Posted by DystopiaX (5310 posts) -

4gate is one of the strongest things out there. Don't blame race. Might be your opponents if you've been winning recently, ladder might have bumped you up too much. Just practice more, don't think about who to blame.

#4 Posted by StarvingGamer (8250 posts) -
@pigmartyr: 4-gate is a build with no mid-game plan. If you 4-gate and fail against a Terran going for a standard tech build or a Zerg going for a standard macro build, it's going to be very hard to recover. Are you cutting probes to boost your push? Are you using Sentries vs Terran? Are you getting one or two gasses? Are you letting them see that you're going 4-gate?
#5 Posted by Ben_H (3361 posts) -
@StarvingGamer said:
" @pigmartyr: 4-gate is a build with no mid-game plan. If you 4-gate and fail against a Terran going for a standard tech build or a Zerg going for a standard macro build, it's going to be very hard to recover. Are you cutting probes to boost your push? Are you using Sentries vs Terran? Are you getting one or two gasses? Are you letting them see that you're going 4-gate? "
Indeed.  Instead of pumping out zealots when you see a zerg hatch first (which will cripple you),  you should safely expand yourself as you know the zerg will not be doing aggression until his new expansion is up and running.  4gating a terran who is planning early aggression such as a 3rax is suicide.  If you see a 3rax all-in incoming, go for a safe build with sentries so you can cut the 3rax in half when they attack up your ramp (as they inevitably will).
 
Trying to end a game early will not work enough for it to be worth it.
#6 Posted by endless_void (706 posts) -

Maybe its simply mechanics that need to be worked on? Macro is something alot of players forget about, even if they've practiced it time and time again.
 
-Probes and Pylons, build them continually
-Do 99% of your actions using hotkeys and only move your cursor to the edge of the screen if your micro'ing
-Try to be producing out of all unit production structures continually unless you're going for a timing push (1 base colossus) or some sort of technical build.
-Harass your opponent as much as possible. As a protoss player myself, I like to keep pylons around the map (including those hidden around the enemy base). This gives you the ability to reinforce an army moving out and attack the enemy mineral fields easier.
-Always one-up a mistake your enemy makes. If he attacks your base and fails, don't just counter harass, but also grab another expansion. 
-Check and make sure your starting build is optimized and try to practice on executing it flawlessly.
 -Don't just send a probe to the enemy's base when you scout, try to keep it their as long as possible while keeping an eye on it to see what exactly the enemy is doing. You can also do some tricks like stealing their vespene geyser if you wanna prevent them from teching. Or you could also attack their scv thats building a structure, etc.
 
 I'm a 3200 Diamond if you need some validity. :)

#7 Posted by pigmartyr (211 posts) -
@Ciffy:  Watching the replays I'm losing bigger than I think I am at the time. That coupled with some bad choices in panic mode are probably the most attributing factor. 
@StarvingGamer: All good points that I've been thinking about. I usually cut probes between 18-20. One gas until after the push. You always try not to let them see what you are up to. One thing I never really considered is that a true 4 gate isn't meant to go beyond one or two pushes and that if you do 4 gate and fail you better pray that they dont just come stomp you in the ground immediately. I think thats more to the point Cliffy was making in that I'm losing bigger than I think I am because the builds I'm attempting aren't meant to be sustainable beyond initial engagements or other all in pushes. 
#8 Edited by imsh_pl (3295 posts) -
@pigmartyr: Post a replay if you can, it'll be easier for us to help.
 
Also, there is one concept in StarCraft which I think is very important: having a game plan.
 
Before each game you should think to yourself: how do I want to win this game?
 
Each action you then take in that game should lead you towards that goal. 
 
Example: my general goal is to kill my opponent with a big, maxed out army while maintainging vision on the map and maintainging pressure/aggression if possible. I want to enter his base with a giant death ball and have many producing structures to reinforce my attack. Your game goal can be as complicated/simple as that, but you can also choose: I want to never let my opponent get a 3rd, ever or I want to harass him and drop as much as possible, for example.
 
How it works in game: I see my opponent hatch early. I could build 2 more warpgates and try to finish it early, but it would contradict my game plan. So, the advantage I just see (my opponent won't be aggressive for a period of time) should always be helping me in achieving my game plan. In this case, I'd expand because it will help me in building my 200/200 army, which is my goal for the game. In the case mentioned I'd propably poke in with a few stalkers to force him to make extra lings.
 
The overall idea of a game goal is: you always know how to use an advantage when you see one. From your 1st post, I get the impression that you were a little undecided; you tried some aggression first, but failed, so you switched to macro.
 
For example, an overall idea for the warp gate is: I want to get my wargpates as fast as possible and kill him with incoming units. Simple and clean. You can propably see why I don't like 4 gate; it doesn't have a good follow up.
#9 Posted by pigmartyr (211 posts) -
#10 Posted by Thule (692 posts) -
@pigmartyr said:

" @imsh_pl: 
replays yay! 
 http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/150656-1v1-terran-protoss-xelnaga-caverns#rd:dna - lost this one. Guy was pretty BM afterwards cause i sassed him for GGing before he won.  

 I'm not and expert on PvT because I play Zerg, but in this game, you never seemed to expand beyond 1 base. Also you didn't scout him beyond your first probe, which meant you had no idea what he was doing. If you scouted with a probe earlier, you could've seen those Marines and Marauders coming earlier and could've prepared better. 
 
Your unit control in the first battle was also not that great. Your 2 Immortals were moving back and forth and not shooting the enemy. Also next time, when you play against Terran: don't wall-off your ramp, it'll do more harm than good as evidenced by that attack, most of our units couldn't contribute properly to the battle and therefore you lost way more than you should have. Next time, don't wall off and just use Sentry Forcefields to bisect their army when he moves up(You did use your forcefield well to do that, but it didn't do you much good, because your buildings were basically protecting him instead of you.)
Once you held off that push, you should've expanded immediately and started on the mass production of Colossus against his bio. 
You lost later on, simply because you were too passive and he expanded more than you. Once he added those 7-8 Thor''s to his army(which you should've scouted and responded to) there was very little to you could do to stop him, beyond making a ton of Zealots+Immortals, which you couldn't afford because you were 1-basing.
 

@pigmartyr said:

" @imsh_pl: 
replays yay! 
 http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/150655-1v1-terran-protoss-backwater-gulch - Another game from today that I won. 

 Generally, there isn't alot I can say about games you won, considering you won and obviously did something right. But I'll try to critique your play anyway.
Once again, don't wall-off against Terran. Secondly, use the probe that makes your first pylon to scout. The first time you spotted your opponent's buildings in the game was at the 9:10 mark, during the entire time, you've been playing blind. 
Once you pushed out and attacked his main, you should've been wondering what he's been doing. Is he expanding? Going for Banshees? Thors? etc. Also be very careful walking up a Terran's ramp, it can be your undoing. If you see he's 1-basing and he's defensive(Tanks with Siege), just try to contain him and expand yourself. If you see someone being so defensive, just take the entire map(maybe that's just the Zerg in me talking, though) and out produce him. If you're up 2+ bases on him you can pretty much make whatever dream army you want and crush him(Mass Voids is always good, even against Marines)

@pigmartyr said:

" @imsh_pl: 
replays yay! 
  http://www.sc2replayed.com/replays/149213-1v1-protoss-zerg-xelnaga-caverns - This one was crazy. Advice on how my reaction was?   "

 You said:
"As examples I see a zerg going hatchery first and I build two gateway and get 4 zealots"
 
I don't know what you were doing in this game. I checked this game twice and you didn't scout a Hatch first at all, yet you still made 2 Gates(3 Gates actually) and attacked. When you see that, it means that either the Zerg is bad or he's doing an all-in. You should've left your inital scouting probe at his natural to see whether he was going to expo or not. Also your first 4 Zealot attacking force did absolutely nothing, besides killing 1 Spines Crawler, you lost 4 Zealots(400 min) and killed 150 in return(Spine). In the early game, those numbers really matter.
This Zerg in question was doing the proxy Hatch with spines to break your ramp and flood your base with lings. It can be held off, you either need to rush to Void rays or just make a ton of Zealots. Once they break your ramp Gateway/Cyber they'll try to run up your ramp. You can block this but you kinda need to make a second wall of buildings or a shitton of Zealots to hold it, after which you can follow up with Voids(make sure you've got at least 2, because 1 Queen beats 1 Void.
 Also, next time you try the Zealot rush against a Hatch first, make sure he's expo'ing, don't do it blind and secondly, just make 2 Gates and wall off with your Cyber Core normally. If your attack fails you can hold off ling with one Zealots in the hole. In this game your ramp was wide open.
 
 
So, to sum up: 
- Try to 1-base less, don't try the fancy stuff. At your level it's more important to make alot of units rather than to try fancy 1-base attacks. Try to find a good Fast expand build against all the races and macro up. You'll probably lose a couple games trying this, but it's the first step to improving your play and getting to a higher league.
- Scout. scout. scout. If you know what he's doing you can make a unit that counters it.
 
Hope, this helps and don't give up. If you want me to view more of your reps, just post them here and I'll try to give you feedback.
#11 Posted by Mike17032 (74 posts) -

The problem with Toss gateway units is that things start to break down when your opponents learn how to Micro better.   
 
Without micro zealots own marines and marauders, but once the Terrans you are facing learn how to kite that changes and zealots are helplessly kited down while doing almost no damage even with charge).   
 
If you are working your way up the ladder, sooner or later you are going to hit the wall where people have learned how to counter your gateway units.  At that point you can either go for Robo or Stargate play or pick a better balanced race.  SC2 is fun and it is good that micro is so important, but when micro breaks unit balance there are serious problems.  

#12 Edited by Mike17032 (74 posts) -
@DystopiaX said:

" 4gate is one of the strongest things out there. Don't blame race. Might be your opponents if you've been winning recently, ladder might have bumped you up too much. Just practice more, don't think about who to blame. "

 
4 gate will only take you so far.  Once you hit the point where people know how to (easily) counter it, you are in trouble.  4 gate gets torn to pieces by a lot of builds out there, and the lack of detection is often fatal.    "OMG WHAT ARE THESE INVISIBLE BIRDS THAT RAIN DEATH FROM THE SKY???".
  
The 4gate build the OP is using is basically a form of all in cheese, and that is why he is losing.  Cutting probe production is almost never a good idea.   Once you get high enough on the ladder players learn how to easily counter a 4gate and then you are toast. 
 
If you really want 1base play try 2 gate robo or even 2 gate stargate.  Or try a 1gate fast expand, that is very effective against terran.  Just be careful vs zerg doing that.   
 
Do things like drop an expo before you push out to attack.  When you are ahead, don't try to win outright.  Instead get further ahead.  
#13 Posted by pigmartyr (211 posts) -
@Thule: Yes it absolutely does help. I never expected that in depth detail so i really do appreciate it. I really thought I did a good job scouting and following his army on the first game with an observer. I had one with his units the whole time. I really just felt that he caught me out of position and at the final engagement killed me due to having a better spread of units + thor splash damage. When i look at it i see his reaction to my killing his econ of having to attack.  But rewatching I see the opportunities and i appreciate it. 
#14 Posted by Turambar (6785 posts) -
@Mike17032 said:
" The problem with Toss gateway units is that things start to break down when your opponents learn how to Micro better.    Without micro zealots own marines and marauders, but once the Terrans you are facing learn how to kite that changes and zealots are helplessly kited down while doing almost no damage even with charge).    If you are working your way up the ladder, sooner or later you are going to hit the wall where people have learned how to counter your gateway units.  At that point you can either go for Robo or Stargate play or pick a better balanced race.  SC2 is fun and it is good that micro is so important, but when micro breaks unit balance there are serious problems.   "
I think what you mean to say is Marine Marauders are good in mid sizes where micro as you have stated is possible.  When it becomes much larger, 200/200 armies, they lose their effectiveness since they are so easily zoned by force fields and shredded by storm.  I'm not sure what you mean by "you can go for robo or stargate" when people learn to "counter gateway units."  Exactly what tech path you decide on going up should be incorporated into your overall plan from the start.  Sticking with just gateway until you're clearly losing is an issue of poor play, not balance.
#15 Posted by DoctorWelch (2774 posts) -

Use more skill (sorry but i had to)

#16 Posted by Mike17032 (74 posts) -
@Turambar said:
" @Mike17032 said:
" The problem with Toss gateway units is that things start to break down when your opponents learn how to Micro better.    Without micro zealots own marines and marauders, but once the Terrans you are facing learn how to kite that changes and zealots are helplessly kited down while doing almost no damage even with charge).    If you are working your way up the ladder, sooner or later you are going to hit the wall where people have learned how to counter your gateway units.  At that point you can either go for Robo or Stargate play or pick a better balanced race.  SC2 is fun and it is good that micro is so important, but when micro breaks unit balance there are serious problems.   "
I think what you mean to say is Marine Marauders are good in mid sizes where micro as you have stated is possible.  When it becomes much larger, 200/200 armies, they lose their effectiveness since they are so easily zoned by force fields and shredded by storm.  I'm not sure what you mean by "you can go for robo or stargate" when people learn to "counter gateway units."  Exactly what tech path you decide on going up should be incorporated into your overall plan from the start.  Sticking with just gateway until you're clearly losing is an issue of poor play, not balance. "
 
Actually without T3 support things only get worse for Toss the more units there are.  MMM scales so much better than Toss T1.5 does that your army will simply melt before it even does damage.  Not to mention that a Toss 200 army costs significantly more than a Terran 200 supply army.   
 
Toss require T3 to take on Terran T1.5, and that is a balance issue.  
#17 Posted by Turambar (6785 posts) -
@Mike17032 said:
" @Turambar said:
" @Mike17032 said:
" The problem with Toss gateway units is that things start to break down when your opponents learn how to Micro better.    Without micro zealots own marines and marauders, but once the Terrans you are facing learn how to kite that changes and zealots are helplessly kited down while doing almost no damage even with charge).    If you are working your way up the ladder, sooner or later you are going to hit the wall where people have learned how to counter your gateway units.  At that point you can either go for Robo or Stargate play or pick a better balanced race.  SC2 is fun and it is good that micro is so important, but when micro breaks unit balance there are serious problems.   "
I think what you mean to say is Marine Marauders are good in mid sizes where micro as you have stated is possible.  When it becomes much larger, 200/200 armies, they lose their effectiveness since they are so easily zoned by force fields and shredded by storm.  I'm not sure what you mean by "you can go for robo or stargate" when people learn to "counter gateway units."  Exactly what tech path you decide on going up should be incorporated into your overall plan from the start.  Sticking with just gateway until you're clearly losing is an issue of poor play, not balance. "
 Actually without T3 support things only get worse for Toss the more units there are.  MMM scales so much better than Toss T1.5 does that your army will simply melt before it even does damage.  Not to mention that a Toss 200 army costs significantly more than a Terran 200 supply army.    Toss require T3 to take on Terran T1.5, and that is a balance issue.   "
Why would I simply use zealots and stalkers against an MMM army?  I am baffled by whatever point you are trying to make as you seem to force any example into a scenario that players do their best not to find themselves in.  If you're saying any one unit should be able to fight any other unit of equal cost to a standstill without taking into consideration abilities and unit control, then what you have in mind is a dull game that no one will want to play.
#18 Posted by imsh_pl (3295 posts) -
@Mike17032 said:
" @Turambar said:
" @Mike17032 said:
" The problem with Toss gateway units is that things start to break down when your opponents learn how to Micro better.    Without micro zealots own marines and marauders, but once the Terrans you are facing learn how to kite that changes and zealots are helplessly kited down while doing almost no damage even with charge).    If you are working your way up the ladder, sooner or later you are going to hit the wall where people have learned how to counter your gateway units.  At that point you can either go for Robo or Stargate play or pick a better balanced race.  SC2 is fun and it is good that micro is so important, but when micro breaks unit balance there are serious problems.   "
I think what you mean to say is Marine Marauders are good in mid sizes where micro as you have stated is possible.  When it becomes much larger, 200/200 armies, they lose their effectiveness since they are so easily zoned by force fields and shredded by storm.  I'm not sure what you mean by "you can go for robo or stargate" when people learn to "counter gateway units."  Exactly what tech path you decide on going up should be incorporated into your overall plan from the start.  Sticking with just gateway until you're clearly losing is an issue of poor play, not balance. "
 Actually without T3 support things only get worse for Toss the more units there are.  MMM scales so much better than Toss T1.5 does that your army will simply melt before it even does damage.  Not to mention that a Toss 200 army costs significantly more than a Terran 200 supply army.    Toss require T3 to take on Terran T1.5, and that is a balance issue.   "
Different kinds of units are good in different situations. Yeah, mass marine/marauder will propably kill mass zealot/stalker/sentry. However, it is a foolish statement to suppose that both players will stay on 'tier /1.5' (yuck, hate that word) through the whole game. When your opponent is massing barracks units, why wouldn't you go for something that kills them faster? Why would you want to stay on 'T1.5'?
 
You can't assume that every 'tier' of units for every race has to be equal throughout the whole game. The game would be too boring this way. You have to adapt to your opponent's strategy, including army composition. If your opponent is going mass MMM, you have time to get units/abilities/whatever to deal with their army composition properly. I don't see how that is a balance issue.
#19 Posted by Mike17032 (74 posts) -
@Turambar said:

Why would I simply use zealots and stalkers against an MMM army?  I am baffled by whatever point you are trying to make as you seem to force any example into a scenario that players do their best not to find themselves in.  If you're saying any one unit should be able to fight any other unit of equal cost to a standstill without taking into consideration abilities and unit control, then what you have in mind is a dull game that no one will want to play. "
 
Because at the point he can make MM, your only options are Stalkers and Zealots with Sentry support.   Right now FF is the crutch keeping Toss in the early game, and that is also bad design because the counters to FF don't hit the game till much later.  
 
I am saying that no race should dominate any other at a given tier, that is bad game design.   
 
@imsh_pl said: 
Different kinds of units are good in different situations. Yeah, mass marine/marauder will propably kill mass zealot/stalker/sentry. However, it is a foolish statement to suppose that both players will stay on 'tier /1.5' (yuck, hate that word) through the whole game. When your opponent is massing barracks units, why wouldn't you go for something that kills them faster? Why would you want to stay on 'T1.5'?  You can't assume that every 'tier' of units for every race has to be equal throughout the whole game. The game would be too boring this way. You have to adapt to your opponent's strategy, including army composition. If your opponent is going mass MMM, you have time to get units/abilities/whatever to deal with their army composition properly. I don't see how that is a balance issue. "
  
Actually yes, all tiers should be equal for all races.  Thats the point.  If one race can roflstomp another with it's T1.5 (valid term btw), that is broken.  And Terrans often do go an entire game not moving beyond T1.5 because Marines and Marauders are that good.   
 
There is no strategy to adapt too if you can't make your counter units yet.  That is the very definition of a balance issue.
#20 Posted by imsh_pl (3295 posts) -
@Mike17032: Well, if you watch one of the hundreds of PvT games it actually turns out that you can get colossi/high templar in time to deal with them going mass bio.
 
And no, tiers don't have to be equal for all races! Zerglings are a tier 1 unit, yet they do bad against both marines and zealots, which are tier 1 as well. They are, however, good against stalkers and marauders, which are a higher tier.
Roaches, on the other hand, lose to stalkers and marauders, but they're very good against zealots and marines. 
 
And you're saying that both roaches and zerglings are underpowered because they're not equal to the units from their respective tiers.
 
What do you think the purpose of higher tier units is, then? If they're supposed to deal only with the 'tier' equal to theirs - as you are stating - why would you ever buy them?
 
Different units from different 'tiers' are supposed to be good against units that don't have to be at their tier.  Starcraft, as well as Starcraft II have been like this for years, but hey, if the great Mike17032 says that 'TIERS SHOULD BE EQUAL FOR ALL RACES!!!' then obviously all these people playing these games for the past 12 or so years are wrong and should vanish from the surface of earth.
 
Seriously, I don't know if you even played the game. Or watched a high-level match, for that matter.
#21 Posted by Turambar (6785 posts) -
@Mike17032:  You don't seem to realize how long it actually takes to build up a massive bio ball army.  Go actually watch some high level TvP and see how they turn out for the most part.  Also "counter to force fields"?  What the fuck are you talking about?  Thors?  You mean the unit someone is NOT going to be building if they want to go MMM since it will fuck up their mobility (thors are fucking slow while MMM armies are fast.)  You don't really seem to have a good grasp of one of the most important aspect of the game.
#22 Posted by Mike17032 (74 posts) -

Done plenty of watching and plenty of playing.  The lack of Toss in most of the end season GSL matches would seem to indicate there is a problem.  Sure a few great players make it in, but when you look at the overall ratios of what races are there and what arn't, a pattern becomes clear.   
 
The idea that it is OK that a race get blown away in the early game with no available counters is just idiotic.  I can't believe I have to dumb things down this far, but T3 balance is not the same as T1 balance.  Have you people ever played a game before?   
 
The difference is that at T3, you still have your T1 and T2 options.  Going down in the tech tree to deal with something is easy.   
 
At  T1, you can't just whip out T3 units because you don't have them yet.  So if countering your opponents T1 requires two tech levels higher than you can have at that point, something is wrong.  The buff to charge is clearly meant to address this, but charge also hits the field quite late.

#23 Posted by imsh_pl (3295 posts) -
@Mike17032 said:

Done plenty of watching and plenty of playing.  


 
Yeah, right. Uhm, I dont' believe you.
 

 The idea that it is OK that a race get blown away in the early game with no available counters is just idiotic.  


 
Gateway units do just fine against MM in small numbers; you haven't even shown a single video, replay or anything to support your theory that 'terran early game destroy protoss early game' .
 

I can't believe I have to dumb things down this far, but T3 balance is not the same as T1 balance.  Have you people ever played a game before?    The difference is that at T3, you still have your T1 and T2 options.  Going down in the tech tree to deal with something is easy.


 
Yeah, but it turns out  that when you want to make units from higher tiers you can't make as many units from the lower tiers.
 

At  T1, you can't just whip out T3 units because you don't have them yet.  So if countering your opponents T1 requires two tech levels higher than you can have at that point, something is wrong.  The buff to charge is clearly meant to address this, but charge also hits the field quite late.

Again, you haven't even presented a single piece of information to support your theory.
 
 
If you claim you're such an SC II expert that we should just listen to you, at least find logical arguments, or link your profile, for that matter. Seriously, saying that everyone is wrong without anything to back your claim up is just trolling.

#24 Posted by Ben_H (3361 posts) -

This is quite funny.  A good Protoss can get anti-bio units out before the average barracks all-in occurs.  You can get "T3" Units out before a push happens.  Personally if I see a Terran all-ining with bio I simply go for  a safe 1base colossi into expanding (or double expanding, depending how safe I feel) after their army dies.  Heck, if you keep your macro up you don't even need a colossus to hold off a 3rax. Get 3 or 4 sentries and you can segment their army up and kill it quite easily.  Yes, a Terran's micro will be improving in higher leagues, but so will the Protoss defending. 
 
Lategame against a Terran army that is primarily bio is laughable.  With either colossi or high templars, the Terran doesn't stand much of a chance if they stay with bio in the lategame.  Even with vikings it is managable if you simply build some phoenixes to tank viking damage and kill vikings quite quickly.  The bonus with adding phoenixes is that they also kill medivacs incredibly fast.
 
Also, the lack of Protoss in GSL at the end? In this season there were 3 Protoss and a Zerg in the top 4, and 2 Terrans in the top 8.

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