Need help with zvz

#1 Posted by RespectTheNerd (20 posts) -

So i just got placed in silver league but im having big problems with zvz. 
I am so used to the bronze league mentality of 6/10 pool so now i just dont know what to do against a macro oriented zerg and whats worse is that I have gotten so used to muta that now when everyone seem to go infestor i just dont know what to do. one fungal and bam 400gas just go down the drain. 
any tips please and sorry if my english is bad im from sweden so i dont usally write in english.

#2 Edited by imsh_pl (3456 posts) -

Play a few games, and post links to the replays. It will be easier for people to give you advice if they can analyze the replay beforehand.
I don't play Zerg so I won't really be able to help you with this one, but I'm sure Thule and Shibb are gonna rush in with their fancy zerg advice any minute now ^_^

#3 Posted by Devil240Z (3799 posts) -

Those poor inter-city zerg. Killin they own kind. Tragic.

We gotta stop zerg on zerg violence.

#4 Edited by Thule (721 posts) -

First of all, if you want to learn how to play as a macro-based Zerg, stop 6-pooling. Also, Muta's might've worked for you so far, but the higher you get the less likely they're going to work. (Higher league players will scout and kill you before you get Muta's or just kill them with infestors.)

I recommend you start doing a 14 gas / 14 pool build. The early gas will get you enough money to get the speed upgrade for your lings as soon as your pool finishes. The lings allow you to gain map control and scout your opponent. Once you know what he's doing you can react accordingly.

vs Fast expansion -> Kill it. I think the best option against it is building a Baneling Nest and going for a speedling/baneling mix to kill your opponent. Just rally the Banes to his mineral line and focus on micro-ing your lings.

vs. early Roaches -> Expand. Then slowly start transitioning into Roaches yourself, once you've droned up a bit.(Early Roaches can't be offensive against early speedling, for you should be safe for a bit to drone) Your two-base economy should be able to produce more Roaches than your opponent's one-base.

vs. speedling -> If your opponent is doing (kind of) the same thing as you, try to expand, while keeping an equal amount of lings with him. You can also get a few defensive Banelings just in case.

You can also take a look at Mr.Bitter's 12 Weeks with the Pro's feature, where he gets coached by people like Ret, Machine and InControl. Lots of good advice there.

First series

Second series.

#5 Posted by Zolfe (262 posts) -

just learn how to mineral walk your drones and 6 pools should be easy to stop, but it's the part after that that's tough in ZvZ, balancing your drones and army, cause timing attacks and micro becomes extremely important, scouting is pretty much essential

#6 Posted by IndieFinch (252 posts) -

One of the best ways to think of ZvZ is in terms of larva management.  One of the biggest tells is what they make on their first set of larva (after the first inject).  If they make 5 sets of zerglings, they are going to try and kill you.  If they make 5 drones, you are safe to take an expo.   As Thule said, 14 gas / 14 pool is the easiest and safest opening.  You get that fast ling speed then use it to scout then from there you can make your decision. 
Generally the safest thing to do is scout with the speedlings and look for the baneling nest.  If you see it, prepare for a lot of lings / banelings coming to kill you.  If you don't see it, take an expansion and start making to roaches.  Roaches are currently the base of a ZvZ.  After you get your expansion up, drop a eve and get +1 ranged attack (so your roaches 2 shot lings, instead of 3 shot lings).  If you feel confident in your micro, get an infestation pit and start getting infestors.  If you don't feel confident in your micro, drop a hydra den and attack right roaches + a few hydras after your +1 (or +2 attack if you can get the evo down early enough) and hit them right before they get infestors or mutts.   
A simple rule to follow in ZvZ is: If you spend your larva on lings or roaches early you must punish them (prevent their expo, kill a queen or some workers).  But if you spend your larva on drones, you need to scout well and make sure you don't die to an attack.  If you can get your natural up before them, you will have more larva / drones...thus in this mid game you can turn out way more roaches / infestors.

#7 Posted by RespectTheNerd (20 posts) -

thanks for the feedback now im actually starting to understand this match up. 
Just one more question at what amount of minerals is it time to make a macro hatch if I should fail to spend my resources?   

#8 Posted by Thule (721 posts) -

@RespectTheNerd said:

thanks for the feedback now im actually starting to understand this match up.
Just one more question at what amount of minerals is it time to make a macro hatch if I should fail to spend my resources?

Spending all your money is more important in ZvZ than in any other match-up. And in ZvZ it's hard to get a good idea of what your opponent is doing so it's important to always be producing units.

However, should you be unable to spend all your money, then 1000 minerals is a good number for when you might consider making a macro-hatch.

#9 Posted by BenderUnit22 (1623 posts) -

Just as an aside, keep in mind that in ZvZ you can spread around your overlords pretty safely due to the lack of early game anti-air. Position them on key bottle-necks to see attacks early and react accordingly. Be aware though that a queen, even off-creep, can "chase" (if you wanna call it that) an overlord and kill it, but she will probably delay her injects.
In general, I find it safe to scout a bit earlier than usual in case they 6 or 7 pool, but even then, a defensive spine crawler can negate much of an early attack and leave you in a comfortable economical lead.

#10 Posted by Donos (1225 posts) -

1000 sounds like a good number for a macro hatch, but I'd suggest staying away from that mindset and just focusing on what you want to be doing, rather than what you're worried you might accidentally do. To that end, I'd generally suggest getting a macro hatch when you have 2 bases full of workers, which is when you can afford to use the macro hatch in most builds.

Oh about the mutas versus all this infestor play.... if you have decent multitasking I'd say just go for a moderate number of mutas anyway. Their infestors might force you not to do much direct damage, but they're slow enough that I find they can't really counter pressure or kill the mutas (unless you're sloppy). Pin to 2 bases, straightforward win 10 minutes later.

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