Should the Reaper be taken out of the game?

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#51 Posted by SL33TBL1ND (492 posts) -

They're fine bro. All you need to do is micro your workers more.

#52 Posted by Turambar (6484 posts) -
@RsistncE said:
" @DoctorWelch: No, you idiot, it's not the same. Sports are COMPLETELY different from hobbies. For one they display physical prowess, which is a evolutionary advantage (in fact it directly fucking translates to one even now in today's society),  and second they're shared across every culture on the planet. There's a lot of other reasons, but let me be extremely clear right now: you are probably too retarded to understand this so I suggest you take a arts class on sports and culture.
Just a few comments.  First, you seem to be phrasing his argument somewhat oddly.  His argument isn't that hobbies equate sports, but that in this case SCII can be considered both.  Second, the argument that video games have no "evolutionary advantage" seems rather silly.  I'm assuming that by this you mean things like physical fitness.  But many recognized sports don't have such advantages.  Sports like ping pong and curling doesn't focus on the muscles on a person, but hand eye coordination, dexterity, and accuracy.  SCII certainly also emphasizes those three points, albeit in different ways.  
 
Thirdly, and the point that made me want to make this response in the first place, it took thousands of years for the sports of one culture to manifest itself across the globe, discounting some very basic ones like running, jumping, and swimming.  While many have sports that are analogous to each other, that is because the tools needed to make those activities happen are native across the entire globe.  So every culture is capable of having a sport that involves throwing something through a circle of some kind.  But not every culture could have had something like horseback riding, or ice skating, and the only reason either are known globally is because of how the ideas of both were spread.  And that process took a long, long time.
 
Now lets take it back to the present.  Video games are not culturally accepted, or simply know, across the globe.  But just as it took plenty of sports, the console, the pc, the broad band internet connection, stuff like that needs time to globalize before competitive gaming can globalize.  We certainly would not say ice skating is not a sport, but it certainly was not shared across every culture on the planet for a very, very long time.
#53 Posted by RsistncE (4496 posts) -
@Turambar: Those things you listed (table tennis, curling etc.) are part of the "is this a sport debate". The reason is solely because it's arguable how much physical skill that the players need. Video games aren't even arguable as a sport, they just plain are not. Just like Yo-Yo isn't a sport, just like model car building isn't a sport, video games are not a sport. Why can't people deal with this? Why MUST your hobby be everything? Why does it HAVE to be a sport? Why can't you live with the fact that it's not. Is this some pathetic attempt at people who weren't good at sports in high school trying to redeem themselves through video games? Like honestly this is insane. I brought up the "evolutionary advantage" thing in justifying why sports are admired by everyone, it's because athletes display some of the best qualities in a given species.
 
Unfortunately the fact still remains that appreciation for SPORTS in general is all across the globe. Games of intellectual skill such as chess, existed in a widespread form across all cultures also, but those never were, and still aren't, recognized on the same level of physical sports. Video games are everywhere at this very moment but the fact is that there aren't really any admirable qualities in a "gamer" and as a result there's no reason to watch them. Women don't find "gamers" sexy but they sure as hell are turned on by athletes. Why? It's built in, we're supposed to love athletes, because they display superior genes that would help us survive better. In the end the idea that video games are a sport is bullshit and I still stand by my opinion that someone who bitches and whines about games as much as the OP needs to sort out his priorities. The man thinks that (in some sort of philosophical mindfuck) that competitive gamers are just as productive and useful to society as doctors, lawyers etc. What a fucking joke.
#54 Edited by Turambar (6484 posts) -
@RsistncE:  The problem with your definition of what constitutes a sport "that it has to be exercising a physical skill" is of course the vagueness in both the definition and its application to currently recognized sports.  While you might want to apply the "is this a sport" question to something like ping pong, hunting, etc, they are generally accepted accepted as sports across the world.  And yet the amount of "physical skill" that goes into each is different, and of a different variety from a sport that you'd watch on Monday night network tv.  Thus, while your narrower definition of sports is understandable, its ultimately rather inapplicable because of the exceptions to that rule that are firmly established, and forces us to determine a new definition for what a sport is.  It has to be physical, yes, but that is extremely vague, and makes things previously not thought of start skimming the surface of what is a sport, whether you like it or not.  To your question of "why does it have to be a sport, why can't you live with the fact that it's not", it's pretty easy to approach it from the same Roger Ebert "why do you care if games are art" direction.  That is to ask, why do you feel so protective of what constitutes a sport, and why do you feel so frightened of things outside your personal definition being constituted as one.  Answering one question answers both.
 
As for statement that "athletes display superior genes that help us survive better", I'm just going to shake my head and say no.  If there is some ingrown genetic attraction to physical qualities, such focus genetic qualities have been made obsolete for a long time now with the advent of our sentience.  And we keep hearing more and more that talent at birth rarely leads to success within that field anyways, making that entire concept more and more suspect.  As for the lack of admirable qualities in a "gamer", I don't presume to know the future direction such things might go.  We all know how the initial generations of any medium is treated.  Those that were literate were once hated as the written word was thought to decay the human memory.  The same initial pessimism and dismissal has been applied to many forms of now excepted, if not applauded social activities, medias, and sub groups within them.  How video games will go is not something neither of us should presume to be able to predict.
#55 Posted by RsistncE (4496 posts) -
@Turambar: It is not just "my" definition, most every general running definition of a sport consider the display of physical skill a BASIC requirement. As for table tennis, I suppose I never realized it, but it DOES take some amount of physical skill. To move that quickly, that accurately, and to alter the trajectory of the ball to such an extent takes a large amount of physical training. Besides these guys sweat like hell when they play so they obviously are physically exerting themselves in some manner. Even still a lot of people argue whether or not it's a sport. It's definitely on the line and the same goes for something like curling. Either way a pretty clear definition is required; if your definition is willing to include everything under the sun, WHY even have a definition. There's no point at all then is there. 
 
Ok, so I shouldn't have put it the same way that Ebert did, but this certainly is not the same as refusing to call games an art. Games share nearly EVERYTHING in common with other accepted art forms. On the other hands games share only one thing in common with sports in that they can be competitive. But as I said, anything can be competitive, and as a result using that as the sole descriptor of a sport is pointless and a waste of time. The argument that games are an art is WAY closer to the yes side while the argument that games are a sport is much, much closer to the no side. 
 
You can shake your head and say no, but trust me, I'm a lot more qualified to say, "Yes, athletes do display the genetic variation that we find attractive." You can guess why I'm more qualified. The reason I say this is pretty simple: physical fitness and attractiveness play a role in one of the two major forms of nonrandom selection of randomly occurring variables, that is, sexual selection. The only type of natural selection that has been blunted is ecological selection, but only to some extent. Sexual selection still runs full force for the most part though. Women are more attracted to men who are more fit; fit and attractive people generally make more money; fit and attractive people and generally more successful. All of these claims are backed up by numerous studies which have found a strong correlation between physical attractiveness and success in both a societal manner and genetic manner. You'd be just plain out wrong to to assume otherwise. 
 
You're not understanding why video gamers don't have the admirable qualities that athletes do. To be an athlete you REQUIRE those qualities: speed, strength, agility, endurance etc. People who play games don't require them. It's just like chess, you need a different skill set, and the fact of the matter is that if you have the same skill set as an athlete then there really is no reason to be a gamer or a chess player. It doesn't matter how many years pass this fact will remain. This is a combination of the effective dimensionality of genetic variation combined with nurture, that is some people are born predisposed with the genes and if they lead a life in which they take advantage of those genes they will end up doing something which effectively utilizes those skills. It's a combination of nature and nurture; you may be born predisposed towards a certain type of heart disease but lifestyle factors are the other half of the equation and can either conform to the predisposition or ultimately take your in a different direction (albeit against the grain I suppose).
 
As for your example of how in the past things that were decried are valued now; to compare those intellectual pursuits in a society which was dominated and controlled by religion, to a time where most of the developed world is very liberal doesn't work in the way you'd like. You can't just stretch that logic and somehow say that all of a sudden we'll accept video games as a sport. We'll accept video games as a HOBBY, and in fact most everyone already has. There are still some more conservative individuals who still slag on games, but for the most part, games are well accepted. To suggest that all of a sudden this will allow games to jump from on category in society to another is pretty laughable. Like I said before, yo-yo'ing never became a sport and neither did most any other hobby. In fact things like table tennis and curling are tip toeing the line and only draw notable viewer-ships in one or two countries a piece.
#56 Posted by DoctorWelch (2774 posts) -
@Turambar said:
" @DoctorWelch:  Personally, I've always wondered at the viability of reapers as harass even in midgame.  The rational behind this is if speedlings can do it, why not speed reapers.  The difference between the two is that people stop building the latter come midgame because of how long they take to produce, and never keep the early game ones alive.  I don't prescribe people start pumping them out of 5 barracks 10 minutes in, but if someone that opens with a big reaper harass and is fended off, what's keeping him from keeping them around for midgame harass, hitting expansions, etc?  I don't buy that they have no viability at all past early game aggression.  It just seems most terran players are content with just suiciding them after early game.  That said, this is all written in a pre 1.2 patch world.  More important than barracks needing depots, if nitro pack needs factory, then no reaper will survive against speedlings, even off creep, and they really will be "useless" as far as players are currently content with.  Though as for why not take them out, who knows. A lot of the strategies in SC1 took years and years to become figured out and standardized, so maybe Blizzard thinks reapers might be worked into something at some point.  Or like the SC1 protoss scout, maybe they just don't feel like it.    Honestly, I still find it rather dumb to ask "why don't Blizzard just remove this unit?"  If you find a unit useless, don't incorporate into anything.  But keep it around for people that want to try if they can make it work, and hey, maybe something will come out of it. "
Yeah, I agree with what your saying in that people shouldnt just suicide their Reapers cause they could do some really good counter attacking if you keep them alive. The problem, as you stated, is that a Reaper takes much much longer to build that a Zergling, and Reapers arent really a viable unit to include in your main army like Zerglings are. I sorta do agree that people may have discovered a purpose for Reapers in the Mid/Late game once the game gets older, but with the new nerfs, no one is ever going to bother with them. You're also sorta right in that they might as well keep it in there if it is is in fact useless because it doesnt really bother anything. Though, another idea may be to overhaul the stats of the Reaper to make it something that makes more sense to get. For instance, maybe it automatically starts with the speed upgrade and takes half the time to build, but you take away a majority of its damage infliction so it is basically a pure scout. It just seems kinda pointless to me to make it a almost completely useless unit (which is basically what they are doing). 
 
Also, I am just going to stop responding to that crazy troll RsistncE.
#57 Posted by DoctorWelch (2774 posts) -
@RsistncE said:
" @DoctorWelch: No, you idiot, it's not the same. Sports are COMPLETELY different from hobbies. For one they display physical prowess, which is a evolutionary advantage (in fact it directly fucking translates to one even now in today's society),  and second they're shared across every culture on the planet. There's a lot of other reasons, but let me be extremely clear right now: you are probably too retarded to understand this so I suggest you take a arts class on sports and culture. Maybe (?) the prof will be able to get it through your head that:  HOBBIES =/= SPORTS  Idiot.   A form of advertisement is not a form of production. Fuck you're dumb. Billboards don't produce anything, they're an investment which leads to brand proliferation so that people will actually buy the product. Again, billboards are not the product and they don't produce anything (unless you want to be that fucking obtuse and claim consumer demand is a product, in which case I'd have to call you an even bigger fucking moron than before).  Holy fuck this is mind numbing. Video games are not a "microcosm" of athletic sport. They are a form of media, there is absolutely nothing about them which can relate them to being a sport. Hell the only thing they have in common is that some people take them too seriously and start to compete with each other on such a level. If your definition of a sport is that loose, are you ready to call EVERYTHING a sport? Dumb shit. Besides, the generally accepted definition of a sport requires the use of skillful physical prowess. Trust me, if bodybuilding generally is not considered a sport, then video games for sure as hell aren't.  Ok you got me, maybe in some fucked up future people are going to start calling video games sports. In that case we'll see. As it fucking stands, they are not sports and I still highly doubt they will ever be (just as many popular hobbies that proliferated even more than video games were never able to). Again you seem to think there is something special about video games when compared to other hobbies; there fucking isn't. They're just a different form of hobby is all.  Perspective? You want perspective? Ask people to rank (in order from most wanted to least) the type of professional they would want in a new society. Doctors, lawyers, police etc. Those will be at the top. Unless of course they want their new society to be nothing more than a burning pile of ruins with athletes running around in the streets kicking balls, shooting hoops etc. You shit eating fuck head.  You know what, I just don't even know what to say to you. You're so out of fucking touch with reality that it's painful. I would HATE to see you work on government fiscal policy.   "Well, let's see here, obviously all aspects of society are equally important to the proper functioning of human life, so everyone get's an equal amount of the money!" "
Like I said before, ignorance always wins an argument because you can just ignore logic and say "Nope, you're a fucking idiot, I'm right" without actually giving evidence or reasonable explanations for your points, which is exactly what you're doing. I am no longer going to waste my time with an incompetent troll as yourself.
#58 Posted by DoctorWelch (2774 posts) -
@Fragstoff said:
" @DoctorWelch said:

" @SuperfluousMoniker said:

" Idra is stupid. I don't care how fucking good at Starcraft he is, he has no excuse for being such a whiny bitch. If Terran is so overpowered, why doesn't he play as them? "
He did in fact play as Terran. Apparently Artosis claims he started playing Terran and in 2 days he was beating 2000 level Zergs which is pretty fucking ridiculous. You have to take what those two say with a grain of salt, but even so, why is the Reaper in the game except to crush the shit out of Zerg. There is no other viable strategy to when using Reapers except early game harass against a Zerg. They arent effective against Protoss or Terran, and Zerg has to account for them because if they dont, they are fucked if their opponent goes with a Reaper opening. It just doesnt really make sense to have them in the game in my opinion. "
um they own Zealots pretty bad.  and they are apparently making Barracks require a supply depot, and reaper speed req. a factory, "
Yeah, you're right, but once you get some Stalkers it's basically over, so Reapers arent really used in TvP. Also, if they nerf them more with the next patch, they are even making them more pointless.
#59 Posted by RsistncE (4496 posts) -
@DoctorWelch: Yeah definitely backed it up with no evidence at all. The irony in you calling me a troll is that you're claiming Starcraft 2 is more than just a video game and is actually a sport. Incredible.
#60 Posted by haffy (673 posts) -
@RsistncE: For something to be a sport you only really need competition, require some sort of skill and rules. You can argue all you like saying games can't and won't ever be considered a sport. But the main point of your arguement is it doesn't require physical energy, but a hell of a lot of sports require very little. There is at least 20-30 sports that you could easily be obeese and still play. Look at gaming, you can't really be obeese to competitive. Your brain doesn't work as fast and you get mentaly tired faster.
 
Anyway I don't want to get in a long winded discussion about this because it looks like you have a very clear line of what a sport is and what isn't even though it isn't black and white especially with how fast technolgy has changed every day life in recent years.
#61 Posted by PoopStain (1 posts) -
@RsistncE said:
" @DoctorWelch: Yeah definitely backed it up with no evidence at all. The irony in you calling me a troll is that you're claiming Starcraft 2 is more than just a video game and is actually a sport. Incredible. "

Looks like someone has no idea what the meaning of irony is lol.
#62 Posted by jakob187 (21503 posts) -

To say that StarCraft II is just another video game may make some people feel justified in the arguments they make, but regardless of whether you acknowledge e-sports or not, they exist and it's more than just a video game for many people.  As a matter of fact, there are people making mad bank by taking these games to serious new levels. 
 
If you can't deal with that, it's your own problem.  The thread here is about whether reapers should be taken out of the game or not.  It's not about arguing whether you acknowledge e-sports as a worthwhile endeavor or not, then arguing non-stop because you think you are more right than someone else.  =  / 
 
As I played another few matches last night (my first time in a couple of weeks), I noticed that Terrans weren't using reapers against me so much.  It was a bit refreshing.  In the end, though, anyone dying to a reaper rush has probably been too busy working on an early "build strat" rather than making sure their base of operations was sturdy enough for that possibility.  Low-end players always seem to view StarCraft as a solely offensive endeavor - build up a shitload of units and just have at each other, see who wins. 
 
Put defense on your base and the Reapers ain't so bad.  If someone like me, a Bronze player who started with SCII and plays Zerg, can actually defend against Reapers with no problem...then you really need to question what you are doing wrong.

#63 Posted by RsistncE (4496 posts) -
@PoopStain: I have a feeling that you may be a little too dense to understand why him calling me a troll was ironic. 
 
@haffy: That's YOUR definition of what a sport is. Most running definitions are pretty clear: there has to be some sort of physical skill involved. If the sports you're talking about are things like Nascar and what not, then yes, I agree, Nascar is not a sport. Additionally there is nothing but a tenuous link between mental performance and physical fitness, so I'm not sure where you got the idea that being fat will "slow your brain down". 
 
The only reason this argument with that other douche came this far is because he was actually trying to argue that competitive gamers were of as much use to society as doctors and what not. That's fucking retarded and you'll be damned sure that I'm gonna call someone out on that.
#64 Edited by haffy (673 posts) -

Alright I'll accept that you and a majority of people won't accept gaming is starting to become a sport. Because it is hard to define and I could be completly wrong. But I really think games and such will contribute more to society than physical sports will if not now than in the near future. Military use games to teach and recuit people to the army. Aviation use games to teach pilots how to fly and cope in differant situations.  Microsurgery is another good example.  I mean really what potential has physical sports got to offer society other than entertainment these days?
 
When I said overweight people can't use their brains as much. It may not be proven but if you look at the top level of anything that requires a lot of mental ability I'm sure you'll find that a lower percentage is overweight compared to the general public. But again that is me completly guessing and no evidence to back it up so don't take that point to seriously.

#65 Posted by lawlerballer (204 posts) -

competitive pooping could be a sport

#66 Posted by haffy (673 posts) -

Could promote good bowl movement so I don't see why not.

#67 Posted by Wunder_ (1167 posts) -

Reapers are super bads come Patch 1.2. Either change them or remove them Blizzard, because you're essentially doing the latter right now.

#68 Posted by Jayzz (590 posts) -

from the most recent patch notes, you won't ever see it again besides to scout.

#69 Posted by StartAndPause (115 posts) -

I personally would like to see them changed, no other race seems to have a harassment based unit and reapers play no other role. It's also a pain in the ass to deal with as toss unless you're going for quick stalkers

#70 Posted by audiosnag (1604 posts) -
@RsistncE
@PoopStain: I have a feeling that you may be a little too dense to understand why him calling me a troll was ironic. 
 
@haffy: That's YOUR definition of what a sport is. Most running definitions are pretty clear: there has to be some sort of physical skill involved. If the sports you're talking about are things like Nascar and what not, then yes, I agree, Nascar is not a sport. Additionally there is nothing but a tenuous link between mental performance and physical fitness, so I'm not sure where you got the idea that being fat will "slow your brain down". 
 
The only reason this argument with that other douche came this far is because he was actually trying to argue that competitive gamers were of as much use to society as doctors and what not. That's fucking retarded and you'll be damned sure that I'm gonna call someone out on that.
Actually he didn't say gamers were just as important as doctors, you threw that out there. What he said was the entertainment/leisure industry was a huge part of our culture and if you don't see that then you've got your head buried in the sand.
In developed countries, its a MASSIVE part of our cultural conciousness.
Your opininon of whether esports is comparible to physical sports is moot. Esports is getting more popular, like it or not.
Why the hell wouldn't this be a good thing?? Part of the reason its already so big in Korea is the fact that they don't persist in this high school jock attitude of "gamers are nerds who don't have any use"
Yeah its a hobby but so are sports. What has the nfl or nba contributed to most peoples lives? By an large, entertainment. That's all.
Yeah I agree most girls are gonna find a pro athelete more attractive then a pro gamer but that's a biological reaction an has very little to do with this.
You might as well just go "hey I'm bigger then you therefore I'm better then you"
#71 Posted by RsistncE (4496 posts) -
@audiosnag: Actually he directly said he could justify anything as being "a waste of time/life". That was a stupid thing to say and I called him on it, I'm sorry. 
 
I never said it wasn't a massive part of the cultural consciousness. You need to understand the difference between culture and sports I think; culture doesn't automatically mean sports. 
 
The entire argument was over whether or not video games were sports, not sure what page you're on. My point was that video games, just like any other hobby, will never be viewed on the same level as sports. That was it. 
 
My entire point behind the statement that people are attracted to athletes was to give a reason as to WHY physical fitness is so important to the definition of a sport. 
 
You know what? I'm tired of fat kids pretending video games are sports just because they suck at real sports. Seriously, I'm still having a hard time believing that people are actually arguing that video games are sports. It's fucking mind boggling.
#72 Posted by SJSchmidt93 (4874 posts) -
@SuperfluousMoniker said:
" Idra is stupid. I don't care how fucking good at Starcraft he is, he has no excuse for being such a whiny bitch. If Terran is so overpowered, why doesn't he play as them? "
When you're competing for almost $100,000 every month it's not like he can just swap races and expect to be on the same level as the good Koreans on an offrace.
#73 Posted by audiosnag (1604 posts) -
@RsistncE: 
Look i'm not gonna every say being good at a game is more important then being physically fit. I mean, one is a hobby, one is tied to your well being, that's just a given.
But unless you're actually in the industry, or you are an athlete, for the majority of people, a sport is no more important then any other hobby. If tomorrow i never played another game of Basketball with friends and never watched another game on TV, that would have zero impact on my life, the same as never playing another video game or never picking up my guitar again.
To say videogames will never be viewed as sports may be accurate, but that's accurate from a North American point of view. I guarantee in Korea, pro gamers are on the same level, if not higher. It's a different society, a different culture.  And that's part of the reason i don't think it will ever be as big here as it is there, or at least not for a long time, because as accepted as gaming has become to the mainstream that attitude that gaming is not important and athletes are worth more is still a major thing for most people. 
And that's pretty sad cause like i said, unless you are in that industry, it has no more effect on your life then anything else. It's entertainment, that's it, that's all.
I'm not trying to change your mind cause i don't think its gonna happen, I'm just saying i think it would be rad if i could go to the bar with some friends, get beer and wings, watch a few football games, then switch over to watch the finals of a Starcraft 2 tournament.
#74 Posted by RsistncE (4496 posts) -
@audiosnag: Again, I would argue that acts of physical competition are much more important to human culture, and in fact played an extremely important role in the advancement of the humans species. Even though you're correct when you say that nowadays sports are just for entertainment purposes, athletes themselves still represent the best of mankind when it comes to physical attributes. Think of it as a relic, a reminder of our past. 
 
Again, I'm not sure how much of a "North American" view this is, when in reality South Korea is really the only place on the planet where competitive gaming comes close to touching real sports in terms of popularity by viewer-ship. I have a feeling that it's because South Korea is much more of a special case but who knows.
 
I think you're missing my major point here: I have no problem with Starcraft 2 being played competitively. I support people playing ANYTHING competitively, that's their choice and hell even I enjoy watching people play against each other in a variety of different things. I also don't care if it's extremely popular or is on TV.  
 
What I am against is people pushing forward the ridiculous notion that competitive gaming is the same as Soccer, Rugby, Track and Field etc. It's not, it just isn't. What it is, is some kids playing video games, competitively albeit, just like lots of people like to play board games competitively. Is it a competitive activity? Yeah, definitely. Is it a sport no different than the ones I mentioned above? Fuck, no. That's what I'm getting it.

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