Why Terran is OP

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#1 Posted by Jeffsekai (7026 posts) -
http://fr.justin.tv/steven_bonnell_ii/b/277607004  
 
1hr 19mins - 1hr 43mins. 
 
Destiny (The guy who isnt Kyle) brings up a lot of good points of why Terran is imba and how to balance an RTS in general. 
 
I'm sure most people are just going to default to "Well I guess he just sucks." or QQ more etc.  If that's your response, don't bother posting here. 
 
Personally I sorta agree with Destiny, a lot of the stuff he says about when Terran loses an army or how good a 500 min investment is from Terran. 
 
SO WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK?!
#2 Posted by Fattony12000 (7053 posts) -

Gosu times two?

#3 Edited by StarvingGamer (8000 posts) -

I'll let you know as soon as I finish listening, inclined to argue that map pool is the only thing that makes Terran OP but will listen to what these people have to say.
 
Also Destiny is a transvestite stripper name.

#4 Posted by supermike6 (3540 posts) -

Wow. He sounds like a complete bitch. 

#5 Edited by Jeffsekai (7026 posts) -
@supermike6 said:

" Wow. He sounds like a complete bitch.  "

Yea hes kinda an asshole. He makes great points tho.
#6 Edited by ThatFrood (3373 posts) -
@supermike6 said:

" Wow. He sounds like a complete bitch.  "

He does. Two zergs have won the GSL and one Protoss. There are definitely issues present, issues that are probably there simply because Terran was the race Blizzard spent the most time designing for WoL. For the most part, though, what I heard him saying wasn't anything interesting or new, or particularly well said, it's stuff that's been discussed in greater detail with a more leveled and unbiased approach on the TL forums.
#7 Posted by Jeffsekai (7026 posts) -
@ThatFrood said:
" @supermike6 said:
" Wow. He sounds like a complete bitch.  "
He does, and he doesn't make a very convincing argument. Two zergs have won the GSL and one Protoss. There are definitely issues present, issues that are probably there simply because Terran was the race Blizzard spent the most time designing for WoL. For the most part, what I hear isn't anything interesting or new, or particularly well said, it's stuff that's been discussed in greater detail with a more leveled and unbiased approach on the TL forums. "
Wow you listened to that whole thing in less than 10 mins? crazy bro.
#8 Posted by ThatFrood (3373 posts) -
@Jeffsekai: Clearly, I don't follow starcraft at all and haven't heard about this!
#9 Posted by supermike6 (3540 posts) -

This guy is crazy. He has some sort of crazy bias against Terran and seems to want every single race to play the exact same for some reason. If there was a problem, than Terran would win every tournament, which doesn't seem to be happening.

#10 Edited by TooWalrus (13137 posts) -

Can I respond with K, thx?

#11 Posted by Jeffsekai (7026 posts) -
@supermike6 said:
" This guy is crazy. He has some sort of crazy bias against Terran and seems to want every single race to play the exact same for some reason. If there was a problem, than Terran would win every tournament, which doesn't seem to be happening. "
Man you sound like Kyle.
#12 Posted by supermike6 (3540 posts) -
@Jeffsekai said:
" @supermike6 said:
" This guy is crazy. He has some sort of crazy bias against Terran and seems to want every single race to play the exact same for some reason. If there was a problem, than Terran would win every tournament, which doesn't seem to be happening. "
Man you sound like Kyle. "
Probably because I completely agree with Kyle because he seems to be the sane one.
#13 Posted by NobodyHIFI (96 posts) -

#14 Posted by Skytylz (4029 posts) -

They're only OP when I lose to them.

#15 Posted by Jeffsekai (7026 posts) -
@Skytylz said:
" They're only OP when I lose to them. "
Hey look! Someone who can't read! 
 
 
hahahahaha man I feel sorry for you.
#16 Posted by Mooshu (486 posts) -

People who say Terran is OP in SC2 are the same exact kind of people who say shotos in Street Fighter IV are overpowered.

#17 Posted by Skytylz (4029 posts) -
@Jeffsekai said:
" @Skytylz said:
" They're only OP when I lose to them. "
Hey look! Someone who can't read!   hahahahaha man I feel sorry for you. "
Wow, overreact much?  I didn't realize you were such an ass.
#18 Posted by Taklulas (401 posts) -
@NobodyHIFI said:
"
"
^This
#19 Posted by Deathpooky (1376 posts) -

Losing an army?  Zerg can replace their army far faster if they are doing it correctly.  And killing backbone portions of their army (Tanks, Thors) are much harder to replace.
 
And really, there's nothing else to say about complaining about Hellions than to say that he sucks.  Most of the time Hellions do a ton of damage it's because the other player doesn't bother to micro correctly.  Unless they have blue flame or a ton of hellions it's not going to do that much damage and can be taken care of by low level units of Zerg/Protoss.  Do you see Hellions whooping up at the high levels?  Rarely.  Compare that to banelings, which can also do far more damage at lower levels.
 
Expansions that can defend themselves?  Zerg can move fast on creep in spread properly, and pylons can warp in units for Protoss if they get attacked somewhere.  Terran are comparatively immobile.
 
I won't go over the rest, but the other guy is correct about fixing the maps.  GSL is going to make a change in the map pool soon for that reason.  But the races all have their advantages and disadvantages.  He was just listing off things that have beaten him at some point or another.

#20 Posted by supermike6 (3540 posts) -
@Skytylz said:
" @Jeffsekai said:
" @Skytylz said:
" They're only OP when I lose to them. "
Hey look! Someone who can't read!   hahahahaha man I feel sorry for you. "
Wow, overreact much?  I didn't realize you were such an ass. "
I realized that a long time ago. 
#21 Posted by jorbear (2517 posts) -

I'm quite excited over the flame-war that is sure to ensue.  
Please, don't mind me. 

#22 Posted by Vinchenzo (6192 posts) -

Dude is a bitch. Stupid video. No, he obviously doesn't suck, but yes he is a whining bitch.

#23 Posted by Kjp93 (53 posts) -

all I got out of that video is him screaming "KYLE!!!" after anything kyle says

#24 Posted by beej (1674 posts) -

I had to stop after hearing kyle say "how do you balance this there are a million different ways?" for the thirtieth time, he's not wrong about that, but christ I didn't have to hear him repeat it again.

#25 Posted by raiz265 (2234 posts) -

 Since I switched from Terran to Protoss last week I have to totally agree with this.    

#26 Posted by Meteora (5787 posts) -

If Terran was imbalanced we would have been streamrolling through this tournament waaaaaay many more times than we should (which we evidentially haven't and still haven't won a GSL yet). Statistically every game won is more or less similar for all races with some percent off and Terran plays much differently from other races.

#27 Posted by Spoonman671 (4560 posts) -
@Jeffsekai said:
"imba"
I hate you.
#28 Posted by JJOR64 (18909 posts) -

People still play this game?

#29 Posted by endless_void (706 posts) -
@JJOR64 said:
" People still play this game? "
Yeah it's only the most played video game other than world of warcraft.
#30 Posted by davidwitten22 (1708 posts) -

Terran is pretty great in the early game. And Marine/Marauder is a pretty sick combination, but they invented a thing called Psi-storm. And a unit called the baneling. Helions? lol. Terran is the easiest race to use (mostly because the campaign teaches you how to use them), but played correctly all the races are pretty much equal. Zerg are probably the worst, but that's just because they're the hardest to use. Watch Nestea whoop up on a Terran. Boom.

#31 Posted by audiosnag (1604 posts) -

I don't think Terran are OP but that being said, he did make a few valid points. And the other guy just repeating "how do you balance??? they aren't the same!!" was pretty stupid, things can be tweaked and the three races while different, do have certain similar functions, that's just how the game is. 
MMM is so cost effective for the damage it can do, I've had a few games where i've spent most of the match killing army's and starving out the other player just to move up to his base and still get crushed somehow by a huge force and end up going "where the hell is he getting his money from??" not that i'm great or anything but it's frustrating sometimes.

#32 Posted by StarvingGamer (8000 posts) -

Mmmm, got about 6 minutes in then couldn't listen any more.  Terran actually has it the worst when they lose their entire army.  Their units may be very cost effective in terms of DPS, but they also have the lowest health per cost compared to the other races making it significantly harder for them in smaller numbers.  They also have the strongest unit counters in the game, but that means that they suffer the most for having the wrong unit composition.  Plus with Warp Gates + Chrono Boost and massive Larvae hoarding, Protoss and Zerg can re-army almost instantly with a unit composition tailored specifically for whatever they're facing.
 
And it's true that 400 minerals worth of Hellions can ruin your day if you're not careful, but so can 16 Zerglings if you let them into your mineral line.  And yeah drops are scary but they're also risky.  A few Phoenixes or Infestors in the hands of an attentive player can take out 1000+ minerals worth of units.  Plus the way Medivacs operate is so straightforward, I don't think there's much more to be explored in terms of strategies and the metagame.  On the other hand, we've barely scratched the surface of what might be possible with Warp Prism and Nydus Worm play.
 
Now if only they could fix PvZ.

#33 Edited by gamefreak9 (2344 posts) -

Anyone who disagrees that terran is op is either an idiot, idealist or a total noob. Stop making reference to tournaments because most of them you have to combine the zerg and protoss numbers to get how many terran players there are. WHen was the last time you saw a zvz in a major tournament finals or even semii finals? now when was the last time you saw a tvt? Terran units are op because in order to stop most of them its not based on you being good but on terran messing up on his micro.  
 
For instance the counter to marines is banelings, but a terran can afford stim within the first 3 min of game, and we need at least 6 to get baneling speed which doesn't even help begin help us to beat stimmed units and sure the whole ling surround trick to get them in position works on occasion, just doesn't work at higher play, as soon as they see lings skipping to surround they pretty much run so ffar that the banelings can't catch them until the marines have already pays for themselves. Also the marines benefit wayy too much from upgrades in the end game, their damage increases by 60 per cent when they are 3 damage. And sure that number becomes 75 for ling, and maybe even 90 per cent more damage with their increased attack speed(not even comparing it to stim) but at end game lings are useless anyway and die right away because they are not ranged and have the lowest hp in the game.  
 
Maurauders are equally op maybe not so much vs zerg but vs protoss terran can get them so early that the protoss can't even dream of immortals and can only use zealots(whom in pro games barely manage to get any htis off. I would go so far as saying that stim either needs to stop helping movement speed to just nerfing the movement of speed upgrade.  
 
Next up we have thor, the unit that counters every zarg unit. Whats he getting, hydra? ima go thor, roaches? thor, baneling? thor, mutalisk? thor, ultralisk? even mass zergling, can't stop 7-8 thors.  I should not even talk about thordrop, talk about no counters... the counter to thordrop is... mutas!! and yet if you drop the thor they get wiped. Thor needs to suck against something, other than broodlords. I suggest a ground range nerf, by two points, so they are not so hard to kill behind a marine wall, they have to be in front to be effective. 
 
Banshee, should we even bring it up? Day9 himself says banshees average over 15 kills in pro games, and pros know how to counter shit properly. The unit is too fast and kills drones in 3 hits, the only sure way to kill them is to use air units.  
 
Should we bring up planetary fortresses? the unit single unit that you need an army to stop? you can't stop a planetary fortress with less than 40-50 food of army if its alone without backup. Basically they can only die when your already losing the game by a massive scale or if its a surprise attack and his army is on the other side of the map.  
 
Siege tank is okay, but terran is already op enough without being the only race to have a siege unit(super long range unit) at tier 2. Glad they increased siege mode time.  
  
Oh and btw i am a 2500 diamond player.  
 
edit: lots of spelling mistakes, anyways, also i heres a suggestion for marines, make their attack be two attacks, one for 2 damage, and the other for 3, they will still do the same damage at the start but like this in end game, armor upgrades are better against them. 

#34 Posted by StarvingGamer (8000 posts) -
@gamefreak9: Lol? Link to your SCII b.net profile page please.
#35 Posted by EkajArmstro (380 posts) -

Well I guess you just suck. QQ more.      
#36 Edited by gamefreak9 (2344 posts) -
#37 Posted by endless_void (706 posts) -

I think blizz is gonna wait until HOTS to fix all of this. :(
They'll have to change ALOT of stuff.

#38 Posted by audiosnag (1604 posts) -
@gamefreak9 said:
" Anyone who disagrees that terran is op is either an idiot, idealist or a total noob. Stop making reference to tournaments because most of them you have to combine the zerg and protoss numbers to get how many terran players there are. WHen was the last time you saw a zvz in a major tournament finals or even semii finals? now when was the last time you saw a tvt?
So because there's a lot of people playing Terran in tourneys, you can't use the fact that they've never won one as a reason they're not OP?
How does that make any sense? If anything, LOTS of people playing a race that's supposedly OP would mean a much higher chance for them to win.
#39 Edited by StarvingGamer (8000 posts) -
@gamefreak9: Most recently I've heard IdrA saying that he's having the most problems with ZvP, he simply cannot win against a top of the line Protoss player unless they make a gross error.  On the other hand he's been saying that ZvT feels balanced as long as it's a good map like Shakuras or not close positions Metalopolis.  So I'm sticking by my original statement, T is balanced fine, it's the map pool that needs fixing.
 
And Thors counter everything Zerg except Broodlords?  Seriously?
#40 Posted by gamefreak9 (2344 posts) -
@audiosnag said:
" @gamefreak9 said:
" Anyone who disagrees that terran is op is either an idiot, idealist or a total noob. Stop making reference to tournaments because most of them you have to combine the zerg and protoss numbers to get how many terran players there are. WHen was the last time you saw a zvz in a major tournament finals or even semii finals? now when was the last time you saw a tvt?
So because there's a lot of people playing Terran in tourneys, you can't use the fact that they've never won one as a reason they're not OP? How does that make any sense? If anything, LOTS of people playing a race that's supposedly OP would mean a much higher chance for them to win. "
They've never won? Who are you? Do you play starcraft? when i said don't use them as an example its because yeah zergs do win some tournyes, but terran do win 80 per cent of tournaments. 
#41 Posted by gamefreak9 (2344 posts) -
@StarvingGamer:  
Well sure zergs need to readjust some strats now with the protoss boost, but i doubt even idra would call protoss OP, and if u ask him nowadays, i still guarantee you he will denounce terran. 
#42 Posted by StarvingGamer (8000 posts) -
@gamefreak9: He's talking about the GSL which is, theoretically, the highest echelon of SCII play and where balance may be most reliably evaluated.
#43 Posted by gamefreak9 (2344 posts) -
@StarvingGamer:  
go watch the GSL brackets, just because fruitdealer is much better than most players doesn't make terran any less OP.
#44 Edited by audiosnag (1604 posts) -
@gamefreak9 said:

" @audiosnag said:

" @gamefreak9 said:
" Anyone who disagrees that terran is op is either an idiot, idealist or a total noob. Stop making reference to tournaments because most of them you have to combine the zerg and protoss numbers to get how many terran players there are. WHen was the last time you saw a zvz in a major tournament finals or even semii finals? now when was the last time you saw a tvt?
So because there's a lot of people playing Terran in tourneys, you can't use the fact that they've never won one as a reason they're not OP? How does that make any sense? If anything, LOTS of people playing a race that's supposedly OP would mean a much higher chance for them to win. "
They've never won? Who are you? Do you play starcraft? when i said don't use them as an example its because yeah zergs do win some tournyes, but terran do win 80 per cent of tournaments.  "
No never. What kinda game is it? Is it like Angry Birds?
I was referring to the GSL which is arguably made up of the best players in the world. Terran has yet to win one.
#45 Posted by StarvingGamer (8000 posts) -
@gamefreak9: That's the whole point though right?  If Terran is so OP then how have they failed to win the GSL 3 times in a row?  Not only that, but MarineKing vs Nestea was the only finals set that was really all that close, both Rain and HopeTorture/Rainbow were basically manhandled.  Every top level player I've heard speak seems to agree that maps range from being even for Terran to being horribly imbalanced in Terran's favor.  So the best players with the most OP race and a map pool that favors them by default and yet they still not only fail to win, but by and large don't even come close?
#46 Edited by gamefreak9 (2344 posts) -

  @StarvingGamer:   
@audiosnag:
Someone bring a gsl bracket, its not that hard to get lucky with maps when its best of 3-5.  
 
Also have you two even listened to the discussion posted? i just finished, and i agree with him. 

#47 Edited by StarvingGamer (8000 posts) -
@gamefreak9: The finals are all BO7, and even if a Zerg player gets lucky with their maps that just means that it's an even match.
 
GSL Season One Finals
  • G1 - Delta Quadrant - FruitDealer (cross positions)
  • G2 - Lost Temple - FruitDealer (south and west)
  • G3 - Kulas Ravine - FruitDealer (southwest and southeast)
  • G4 - Desert Oasis - HopeTorture
  • G5 - Scrap Station - FruitDealer
 
GSL Season Two Finals
  • G1 - Shakuras Plateau - MarineKing (cross positions)
  • G2 - Lost Temple - MarineKing (south and west)
  • G3 - Scrap Station - NesTea
  • G4 - Jungle Basin - NesTea
  • G5 - Steppes of War - MarineKing (lol)
  • G6 - Xel'Naga Caverns - NesTea
  • G7 - Metalopolis - NesTea (west and north)
 
GSL Season Three Finals
  • G1 - Delta Quadrant - MC (cross positions)
  • G2 - Lost Temple - MC (north and east)
  • G3 - Xel'Naga Caverns - Rain
  • G4 - Steppes of War - MC
  • G5 - Jungle Basin - MC
 
I'm just not seeing it bro.
 
EDIT: No I did not listen to the whole thing, just the first half (maybe read my earlier posts?) and I've already stated why I disagree with what he said.  He was stating the advantages that Terran has and ignoring the advantages that Zerg and Protoss have.  I'm inclined to agree with Kyle that the majority of any perceived imbalances in the Terran's favor should be fixed by improving the map pool.  Start nerfing Terran and it'll just shift in the opposite direction.  Zerg will become overpowered on maps like Shakuras and Scrap just like Terran is now on maps like Steppes and Jungle.
#48 Posted by endless_void (706 posts) -

A sampling of the GSLs that have happened for sc2 is far too small. GSLs have been loaded with cheese of all sorts (especially the earlier seasons) so I wouldn't use them as a form of proof for any argument. Maybe wait for a year's worth first. :| Just sayin'.

#49 Posted by gamefreak9 (2344 posts) -
@StarvingGamer:  
Well maybe you should finish listening cause your argument is countered by their discussion.  
No thats not the brackets i was talking about, i was talking about bring the brackets of top 14-32 players, lets just study the ratio of zergs. Zerg player do have to be ALOT better to get that far, and they do get lucky with positioning. 
#50 Posted by EkajArmstro (380 posts) -
@gamefreak9:  
Instead of trolling why don't you have a grudge match and play terran. Then you'll be sure to win.

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