Street Fighter IV
Game » consists of 9 releases. Released Jul 18, 2008
After nearly a decade in hiatus, Capcom's signature mainline fighting game series resurfaces with its fourth main installment, combining the traditional 2D gameplay with modern fully-3D graphics.
David Sirlin speaks out against SF4
The only thing I agree with or care about what he said is the fact that we have to unlock the characters.
I agree with how matchmaking should be double blind and that you can kick people from ranked. I find almost everything else to be nitpicky.
He is nitpicky, but for damn good reason. That was probably one of the best articles that I've read about SFIV so far in terms of the natural aesthetics of the game. What's probably worse is that I understood all of it.
"In ranked matches, you can see the opponent's name before the match and kick them or reject the challenge. This allows you to cherry pick who you fight and negates the entire purpose of a ranked match.
In ranked matches (well, all matches) there is no double blind character select. This means the optimum strategy is often to wait until the opponent chooses first so you can counter-pick. This is a very annoying situation."
All that I 100% agree with.
"When lag inevitably happens in an online fighting game, there are different ways to handle it. Some SF4 matches I played had large input delay, maybe as high as 15 frames. This is the time between your button press and seeing the effect happen. Adding input delay is really the worst way to handle lag. GGPO's amazing netcode shows that avoiding input delay and hiding lag in other ways is the way to go. That technology has been readily available for years, so it's disappointing to feel input delay in an online match.
They didn't include GGPO because the overhead of GGPO was too high while running the game SF4. This is what Capcom stated. However, I think the netcode is amazingly well done. I've only run into 2 matches were the lag was enough to make me have difficulty, and I never host, so I'm probably seeing more lag than the hosts see.
I'm a very average SF4 player and I have no problem with Cammy's hooligan throw. If this guy can't handle it, maybe I'm too good or something?"The one thing I disagree with him on is the two button throws. While bringing them down to 1 button would be optimal for tournament play, I think the reason Capcom has 2 button throws is simply to help discourage them from being used as much...as you'll see their cheap use in many 3D fighters and even in 2D fighters like MK and such. Granted...MK is by no means in the same league as SF. Two very different games."I don't have the game, but I personally thought that 2-button throws sounded great for the game.
"I'm a very average SF4 player and I have no problem with Cammy's hooligan throw. If this guy can't handle it, maybe I'm too good or something?"It's more about the fact that it's part of a string combo and still a 2 button press in order to accomplish it. Traditionally, you don't find that type of a setup with combos in 2D fighting games, especially ones that are more than likely going to be in tournament play.
"he's pretty nitpicky eh"you have no fucking clue what hardcore street fighter fans are like do you? and rightfully so, the gameplay needs to be finely tuned and every frame needs to be just right.
"I'm a very average SF4 player and I have no problem with Cammy's hooligan throw. If this guy can't handle it, maybe I'm too good or something?"Actually, he explains his general philosophy towards controls and skill in a article about the design decisions they made in HD Remix.
I always did find something off about SF4 that I couldn't put into words til now, Sirlin just articulated my thoughts. Well most of them. From this I can see Evo keeping 3rd strike, HDremix and SF4.
"LiquidPrince said:LOL This is why most people will never understand tournament play in SF. lol"The only thing I agree with or care about what he said is the fact that we have to unlock the characters."Same here. The guy just seems like he's whining and it was hard to understand where he was coming from. He's just catting."
It's more about the fact that it's part of a string combo and still a 2 button press in order to accomplish it. Traditionally, you don't find that type of a setup with combos in 2D fighting games, especially ones that are more than likely going to be in tournament play.Talking more about the intricate balances between fighters then? I wouldn't so much make Cammy's hooligan combo 1 button as nerf some of the other fighters, but I'm not a 'pro' level competitor by any means.Back in the SSF2 days, sure...it was fine because the complexity of the move warranted the need for something like this to keep it from being overpowered. However, at the point we've reached now, it should be a 1-button combo. You can go look at plenty of other SFIV characters and see that they have just-as-complex combos...yet all 1 button presses? Really? But Cammy is still on 2? It's a nitpicky thing for sure...but given that that extra button can be a huge difference between winning against someone like Akuma or even Sagat at times, it's a MASSIVE deal for someone who plays SFIV beyond the general standard of it all.
"jakob187 said:All I can say is that Dingo was able to find the best reasoning behind it in Sirlin's own words, which is what I tried to convey but obviously failed at doing:It's more about the fact that it's part of a string combo and still a 2 button press in order to accomplish it. Traditionally, you don't find that type of a setup with combos in 2D fighting games, especially ones that are more than likely going to be in tournament play.Talking more about the intricate balances between fighters then? I wouldn't so much make Cammy's hooligan combo 1 button as nerf some of the other fighters, but I'm not a 'pro' level competitor by any means."Back in the SSF2 days, sure...it was fine because the complexity of the move warranted the need for something like this to keep it from being overpowered. However, at the point we've reached now, it should be a 1-button combo. You can go look at plenty of other SFIV characters and see that they have just-as-complex combos...yet all 1 button presses? Really? But Cammy is still on 2? It's a nitpicky thing for sure...but given that that extra button can be a huge difference between winning against someone like Akuma or even Sagat at times, it's a MASSIVE deal for someone who plays SFIV beyond the general standard of it all.
"systech said:I understand it, I just don't care. The game is, wht it is. If you can't adapt, and just need them to make the game perfect for you, then your not as good a player as you thought you were. Good players adapt."LiquidPrince said:LOL This is why most people will never understand tournament play in SF. lol""The only thing I agree with or care about what he said is the fact that we have to unlock the characters."Same here. The guy just seems like he's whining and it was hard to understand where he was coming from. He's just catting."
Capcom's claims about GGPO are dubious at best. Look up what Ponder from SRK has to say on the matter (he's the guy what MADE GGPO) and you'll find something more credible.They didn't include GGPO because the overhead of GGPO was too high while running the game SF4. This is what Capcom stated. However, I think the netcode is amazingly well done. I've only run into 2 matches were the lag was enough to make me have difficulty, and I never host, so I'm probably seeing more lag than the hosts see.
I'm a very average SF4 player and I have no problem with Cammy's hooligan throw. If this guy can't handle it, maybe I'm too good or something?
There is lag online. In an online match, tap your Jab button really fast once, and see how long it takes to translate onscreen. Even with really good connections, it's there. That rarely happens in HD Remix, and it isn't even using true GGPO.
David Sirlin is a high level tourney player who can likely easily perform Hooligans. The issue is whether or not it MUST have the command it has. Really, the command could be a simple QCF, with the move toned down IF it is deemed too strong for the current motion.
LiquidPrince said:
I understand it, I just don't care. The game is, wht it is. If you can't adapt, and just need them to make the game perfect for you, then your not as good a player as you thought you were. Good players adapt.The reason there are good games is because people who actually understand the purpose of criticism will actually criticize something. Sitting back and taking whatever is fed to you is not indicative of being a good player. It's indicative of being a doormat.
Yes and no.
LiquidPrince said:I understand it, I just don't care. The game is, wht it is. If you can't adapt, and just need them to make the game perfect for you, then your not as good a player as you thought you were. Good players adapt.The reason there are good games is because people who actually understand the purpose of criticism will actually criticize something. Sitting back and taking whatever is fed to you is not indicative of being a good player. It's indicative of being a doormat.
"
(NO) there is nothing we as players or the community can do to change what Capcom does with their games. <short of working on the game itself>
(YES), if we can find enough things at fault with the game then there wouldn't be much of a community around the game and it just wouldn't be supported in the tournament scene.
This is why Sirlin did write a second article basically saying its not all bad and acknowledges its a new game with its own personal little quirks instead of trying to be an upgraded version of past SF games.
EDIT: To the OP, makes you kinda wish you could just change your topic name to Sirlin speaks about SF4 now since he did both sides, dont it??/
"EDIT: To the OP, makes you kinda wish you could just change your topic name to Sirlin speaks about SF4 now since he did both sides, dont it??/"well, I guess I could have also have made a new topic, but that felt kind of spammy :-)
When I read about the 100/100 scores, I see again and again how "simple and elegant" the game is. Two super meters, a 3-tier focus attack system, and all the complications above seem to fly in the face of that. Even more though, I hear how "casual friendly" it is. This is deeply mysterious and I'm not sure why this so often claimed
Dave Sirlin's a nice and smart guy.
I chatted with him (and also one of the Developers of Golden Axe Beast Rider, who I ate sushi with) at a Street Fighter Tourney last year. Sirlin handled the score board like a pro, just like he handles his SF :p
Anyway, this was a great read (along with the positives: http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2009/2/24/some-positives-about-street-fighter-4.html) and damn near exactly how I feel about IV.
I understand it, I just don't care. The game is, wht it is. If you can't adapt, and just need them to make the game perfect for you, then your not as good a player as you thought you were. Good players adapt.
This is pretty much how I feel. A friend of mine is making a lot of the same complaints and thought that HD Remix was a better game. I told him to go back to his arcade and play some more Tekken 6.
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