Perhaps this may be a provocative topic, but Im really curious to know what the general concensus of cheap is around here... 
 
Whether it be lag, mashing, repetitive B&B combos, or just plain old OMG IF YOU THROW ME ONE MORE TIME IM GONNA (Insert derogatory statement here). 
 
Obviously with any gaming community there are varying skill levels, and as such there always seems to be this constant bickering about things that may be considered "cheap" 
 
I read this a while ago: 
 
http://www.sirlin.net/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html  
 
And after having read that, it put alot of this "cheap-ness" into perspective..    
 
I have to agree that no matter how, or why, or what happens during a match, at the end of the day, its all about the win is it not?  Otherwise, why the hell would we continue to play if we constantly lost? 
 
 
Personally I play to win.. Granted I may lose often, but ultimately I play with the intent on winning, using what ever weapons my character may have at his/her disposal.
  
 
 
Discuss.

Constant Blanka electricity against non-projectile people is never fun.

Scrubs who mash reversal dp/ultra during blockstrings in a laggy environment. Try that against me in person please.

Blanka.

" Blanka. "

" Scrubs who mash reversal dp/ultra during blockstrings in a laggy environment. Try that against me in person please. "

" Scrubs who mash reversal dp/ultra during blockstrings in a laggy environment. Try that against me in person please. "

" @ZombieHunter: Yeah I know, just being provocative :)  Seriously though, I hate Blanka. "

" Blanka. "

"Scrubs who mash reversal dp/ultra during blockstrings in a laggy environment. Try that against me in person please. "

A  buzzword used by idiots who cant learn to adapt

inexpensive 

I'm waiting for Jeffsekai to come in here and defend Blanka

" @Stang said:

"Scrubs who mash reversal dp/ultra during blockstrings in a laggy environment. Try that against me in person please. "

But isn't that the whole thing with online?  The way I see it, online is one game, offline is another.  You need to adapt to both game situations.  If you're stuck in the 'offline' mentality while playing online, you'll obviously perform worse than if you thought of it as its own animal, and arranged your actions in accordance. 
 
To me, anything, anything is permitted for the win (sole exception: hacking).  If the opponent calls it cheap, it's just because they have no way of dealing with it and, instead of coming up with a plan to counter the opponent's "cheap tactic", they'll simply complain and call out "Cheap!" "

Define cheap? 
 
Tiger sh-tigersh-tiger sho-tiger-tig-tiger sh-TIGER DESTRUCTION! 
 
Did I do it right?

" Define cheap?  Tiger sh-tigersh-tiger sho-tiger-tig-tiger sh-TIGER DESTRUCTION!  Did I do it right? "

Sagat.

" I'm waiting for Jeffsekai to come in here and defend Blanka "

@mubress said:

" @ZombieHunter: Yeah I know, just being provocative :)  Seriously though, I hate Blanka. "

" @Jeffsekai: How would you suggest Rufus go against a Blanka who's busting out constant Blanka balls?   Don't mean to sound defensive, that's just my biggest problem against him "

" @Jeffsekai: How would you suggest Rufus go against a Blanka who's busting out constant Blanka balls?   Don't mean to sound defensive, that's just my biggest problem against him "

" @Jeffsekai: How would you suggest Rufus go against a Blanka who's busting out constant Blanka balls?   Don't mean to sound defensive, that's just my biggest problem against him "

ill throw the entire match, if i play a turtle akuma, ill sit at the endof the screen.
 
other than quitting, ill do anything to win.
edit: oh, i dont induce lag either.
by anything i mean anything my char is capable of, even if its the same thing over and over

blanka isnt cheap.
everything he does is unsafe.
i used to beat blankas by blocking everything and then punish

The word "cheap" doesn't exist in my fighting game vocabulary. It sounds like a pretty elitist thing to say, but really, folks who toss around the word "cheap" are making excuses for why they can't win, most of which come down to the silliest things.
 
"Its cheap to spam moves" is the one that kills me. If you know something is coming, why can't you do anything about it?

Lag is one thing that can get me angry about a loss, but everything else being equal, a win's a win's a win.  If I lost to someone being "cheap," it was my fault for not picking up on what they were doing, and I deserved to lose.  Learning how to take your lumps is part of the process of becoming a better player, I think.

Anyone who beats me is cheap/a hacker. This goes for all games, not just SF.

I don't call things cheap, I often call them gay, dumb, retarded, etc. Never cheap.

If it's in the game, it's not cheap.

In my opinion, a game as highly polished and perfected as Street Fighter can be played however you want to play it. Partly because it's a fictional activity, also because everything you can do in the game is most likely there for some kind of reason and everything has some form of counter. So basically in a game like SF4, anything goes.
 
However, I play a lot of NBA 2K10 and have played the 2K basketball games in online matches since 2K5 I think. It's games like this that I think can be "cheated" by players using "strategy" that is unrealistic. In SF, it's no problem because there is no real life comparison for any style of play. But in 2K10, I always want to play a realistically as possible but when I do that I get these people that take advantage of exploits that could never happen in real life and it's frustrating. I wont go into specifics as that could turn into a very long rant very fast.
 
Anyways, I guess I'm saying that a lot of times, if a game doesn't have any real life comparison to tell you what's the "right way to play", then anything goes.

" If it's in the game, it's not cheap. "

" @JeffGoldblum said:

" If it's in the game, it's not cheap. "

......, but the onus is on the opponent to be better than the player who opts for the easy win option. However, that never really makes for a very compelling or satisfying match. "

" @FluxWaveZ said:

" @Stang said:

"Scrubs who mash reversal dp/ultra during blockstrings in a laggy environment. Try that against me in person please. "

But isn't that the whole thing with online?  The way I see it, online is one game, offline is another.  You need to adapt to both game situations.  If you're stuck in the 'offline' mentality while playing online, you'll obviously perform worse than if you thought of it as its own animal, and arranged your actions in accordance. 
 
To me, anything, anything is permitted for the win (sole exception: hacking).  If the opponent calls it cheap, it's just because they have no way of dealing with it and, instead of coming up with a plan to counter the opponent's "cheap tactic", they'll simply complain and call out "Cheap!" "

..... I have a 70% win rate with almost 11k games played, I did it the legit way. If I can do it, so can you. "

" @FluxWaveZ said:

" @Stang said:

"Scrubs who mash reversal dp/ultra during blockstrings in a laggy environment. Try that against me in person please. "

But isn't that the whole thing with online?  The way I see it, online is one game, offline is another.  You need to adapt to both game situations.  If you're stuck in the 'offline' mentality while playing online, you'll obviously perform worse than if you thought of it as its own animal, and arranged your actions in accordance. 
 
To me, anything, anything is permitted for the win (sole exception: hacking).  If the opponent calls it cheap, it's just because they have no way of dealing with it and, instead of coming up with a plan to counter the opponent's "cheap tactic", they'll simply complain and call out "Cheap!" "

People can play how they want, I won't play people that resort to bullshit like that to win though. I don't care what any person thinks with regards to this. I will not resort to mashing to beat a masher, I will simply kick them off my list or kick them from my lobby if I recognize them. I have a 70% win rate with almost 11k games played, I did it the legit way. If I can do it, so can you. "

I don't call things cheap, but I do call some things downright stupid, and they're mainly matchup specific in SF, or lag specific.  Offline and in person I deal with just about everything no mater how bad I get whipped, and in long sets online against good opponents, I'm the same.  But the play changes so much against randoms online, it becomes un-fun to me in many ways.  I've relied on reaction speed to block certain things, and online you have to do some things via psychic intervention to block them (Im guilty of using this as well, stang knows too well about my random unsafe spiral arrows, but he was baiting them well).  
 
Thats all fine and dandy when you're playing a multi-game set and can pattern a person and bait some shit.  I get sooooo frustrated when im trying to re-learn block timing on headbutts every honda match, and they know you CANT block that shit on reaction with a little lag.  Mashing reversals into blockstrings, eating a Ryu SRK FADC Ultra between cr.lpx2, cr.lk because the timing was a millisecond off(I seriously damn near never miss this link, wtf), and all the other little annoying shit I get online just frustrates me to no end, until I say, "this is fucking stupid, why am I playing like this?"  Its not so much cheap as it is the matches not being fun, at all.
 
On the matchup side, I get super annoyed with good 'rog players.  I have all the tools, but theirs are just better, i have to play super unsafe, get a life lead, then turtle like crazy, and hope to open them up.  That is a matchup thing I find dumb, but I know what it is, I dont think its cheap for them to turtle, its goign to win if they do it right, it just means that matchup is really bad for me personally and I can say, "damn this is stupid, I wish I could find a way to break this guys defense down".
 
@TheLastNeo:
His "legit" way to win is basically giving the other person the benefit of the doubt on blockstrings and not mashing a reversal into that.  You see that shit every match online, to the point where i've taken a lot of the 1 frame links I normally use out of my game in randoms, -or- I'll stop normal blockstrings early and watch them scrub out an SRK and eat a punish.  Consistency for me is very bad online, because the timing is SO tight on 1 frames(game design), and I'm not a good plinker, I hit every input by itself(self imposed shitty play).  But, that doesn't step up my game, it makes me play stupid by not finishing safe knockdown links, or by doing unsafe combos instead that aren't 1 frames.  Basically it makes my offline play worse, because Im expecting stupid shit which people simply do not try offline, or even in long set matches with someone because mashing that reversal isnt getting you anywhere when the mixups and mindgames start. 

Cheap: A term used by inexperienced players when they are beaten by repetitive or unvaried moves that a more experienced player would easily be able to defend against.

Playing all "cheap" like that play to win guy doesn't get you that far, even. A pro will shred them apart, especially with something as balanced as SF. 

" I don't call things cheap, but I do call some things downright stupid, and they're mainly matchup specific in SF, or lag specific.  Offline and in person I deal with just about everything no mater how bad I get whipped, and in long sets online against good opponents, I'm the same.  But the play changes so much against randoms online, it becomes un-fun to me in many ways.  I've relied on reaction speed to block certain things, and online you have to do some things via psychic intervention to block them (Im guilty of using this as well, stang knows too well about my random unsafe spiral arrows, but he was baiting them well).  
 
Thats all fine and dandy when you're playing a multi-game set and can pattern a person and bait some shit.  I get sooooo frustrated when im trying to re-learn block timing on headbutts every honda match, and they know you CANT block that shit on reaction with a little lag.  Mashing reversals into blockstrings, eating a Ryu SRK FADC Ultra between cr.lpx2, cr.lk because the timing was a millisecond off(I seriously damn near never miss this link, wtf), and all the other little annoying shit I get online just frustrates me to no end, until I say, "this is fucking stupid, why am I playing like this?"  Its not so much cheap as it is the matches not being fun, at all.
 
On the matchup side, I get super annoyed with good 'rog players.  I have all the tools, but theirs are just better, i have to play super unsafe, get a life lead, then turtle like crazy, and hope to open them up.  That is a matchup thing I find dumb, but I know what it is, I dont think its cheap for them to turtle, its goign to win if they do it right, it just means that matchup is really bad for me personally and I can say, "damn this is stupid, I wish I could find a way to break this guys defense down".
 
@TheLastNeo: His "legit" way to win is basically giving the other person the benefit of the doubt on blockstrings and not mashing a reversal into that.  You see that shit every match online, to the point where i've taken a lot of the 1 frame links I normally use out of my game in randoms, -or- I'll stop normal blockstrings early and watch them scrub out an SRK and eat a punish.  Consistency for me is very bad online, because the timing is SO tight on 1 frames(game design), and I'm not a good plinker, I hit every input by itself(self imposed shitty play).  But, that doesn't step up my game, it makes me play stupid by not finishing safe knockdown links, or by doing unsafe combos instead that aren't 1 frames.  Basically it makes my offline play worse, because Im expecting stupid shit which people simply do not try offline, or even in long set matches with someone because mashing that reversal isnt getting you anywhere when the mixups and mindgames start.  "

There is no such thing as "cheap". It is the responsibility of every player to use all the tools at their disposal to win.
 
A game can be broken or unbalanced, but that is the fault of the game and it's designers, not the player. 
 
I learned this playing Street Fighter 2 for the SNES back in the day. A friend of mine kept doing something (I don't even remember what) and I accused him of being "cheap". He reminded me "It's not cheap if it's in the game". That has always stuck with me. You'd be a fool not to exploit every weakness of a player, and the same goes with the weakness of a game.

To be honest, even mashing reversal uppercut I don't consider cheap. It's up to you to read your opponent, and you should be able to figure out whether they're mashy type in a round or so. If not, you have yourself to blame. That said, I don't have much respect for blind mashers, but a well-thought out reversal through a link is not beside me, especially if I know what link they're doing and I know that it's hard.

The only tactic I find cheap is mashing. I can deal with anything else, and even if I can't, I'll at least know it's coming and I'll know how to defend against it better the next time. I used to call move spamming cheap... not so much anymore. I simply don't know how to defend against certain attacks, and sometimes it's hard to tell where something will hit. This is something I certainly need to improve upon.
 
@lordofultima: I am totally behind you on the well-timed reversal through a link. Sometimes I can catch a shoto in between a slow link with a Somersault Kick. Those are always the best reversals.

I will follow the Giant Bomb philosophy.  If it's in the game, it ain't cheap.  I believe it was Ryan Davis who said it.  So get over it and stop being pussies if someone beat you using a really really simple strategy.

" @Stang said:

" @FluxWaveZ said:

" @Stang said:

"Scrubs who mash reversal dp/ultra during blockstrings in a laggy environment. Try that against me in person please. "

But isn't that the whole thing with online?  The way I see it, online is one game, offline is another.  You need to adapt to both game situations.  If you're stuck in the 'offline' mentality while playing online, you'll obviously perform worse than if you thought of it as its own animal, and arranged your actions in accordance. 
 
To me, anything, anything is permitted for the win (sole exception: hacking).  If the opponent calls it cheap, it's just because they have no way of dealing with it and, instead of coming up with a plan to counter the opponent's "cheap tactic", they'll simply complain and call out "Cheap!" "

..... I have a 70% win rate with almost 11k games played, I did it the legit way. If I can do it, so can you. "

 Why is your way the "LEGIT" way? "

You got it to a tee. It's impossible to even bother with these hard links online against a random because it's just not worth risking a massive EX-Shoryu or equivelent just for trying to get that extra bit of damage or stun. It really sucks having to be confined to only using boring and more sure combos because your opponenent is playing like a dick and there's nothing you can do about it. That's what annoys me in the end. I don't get annoyed when I loose due to my mistakes, I've grown up to instead take it on the chin and learn from it and I even really enjoy it when some amazing player works me over by Zoning me perfectaly, forcing me to make ridiculas mistakes. It's when I have no control over it is when I get annoyed (Ie. I try a harder link and misstime it or even get the timing perfect for offline but the specific type of lag for this 1 match makes me miss it leading to a mashed Ultra in the face which takes 70% of my health away in 1 go). That really pisses me off and just makes me also feel like "why am I even playing this, I'm not having fun at all). "

" @OwnlyUzinWonHan said:

" @Jeffsekai: How would you suggest Rufus go against a Blanka who's busting out constant Blanka balls?   Don't mean to sound defensive, that's just my biggest problem against him "

Wait for an opening and then Rush him down and never let him get away. Dive kick pressure (if done right) stuffs everything I do...even elec. "

"@lordofultima: I am totally behind you on the well-timed reversal through a link. Sometimes I can catch a shoto in between a slow link with a Somersault Kick. Those are always the best reversals. "