Why is the FGC so cold on this game?

#1 Posted by psylah (2162 posts) -

So Evo has come and gone, and I couldn't help but notice that there was little to no buzz over SFxT there, or even in the streams for that matter.

They didn't show anything until the finals as far as I could tell, and even then there was no hype around it. Even the contenders didn't seem interested, Ricky Ortiz (whose team placed 2nd) claimed to barely have played it. Combofiend and his parter seemed like they couldn't care less.

What is it about this game that's turned off the fighting community? Was it the DLC shenanigans or online troubles? Gems?

#2 Posted by FLStyle (4594 posts) -

@psylah: More matches finish with timeouts than KOs and jabs are all powerful with regards to block-stun, among other things.

#3 Posted by MooseyMcMan (10552 posts) -

@FLStyle said:

@psylah: More matches finish with timeouts than KOs and jabs are all powerful with regards to block-stun, among other things.

Couldn't they just turn off the time limit if timeouts are and issue? Obviously it wouldn't negate the other issues, but still.

#4 Posted by JJOR64 (18913 posts) -

@FLStyle said:

@psylah: More matches finish with timeouts than KOs and jabs are all powerful with regards to block-stun, among other things.

This really. Plus the DLC stuff (characters, gems), the top tier are way too good (IMO).

#5 Posted by FLStyle (4594 posts) -

@MooseyMcMan: Tournament rules I assume, when you remove the time-limit you open up the door to all sorts of crazy problems when trying to run the tournament on time. All the pools have to be finished at a certain time for the quarters to start, same with quarters to semis. Then when you take into consideration that they've only got a certain amount of PS3s for all these different games.

I'd hate to have to run EVO, sounds like a real mind-fuck if you don't plan it with precision many months in advance.

#6 Posted by Baillie (4040 posts) -

I don't think there is an option to remove the time limit. I LOVE the game though, I'm not exactly sure why there isn't that much hype for it.

#7 Posted by AjayRaz (12418 posts) -

i've heard that it's boring to watch. sounds good enough to me

#8 Posted by FateOfNever (1815 posts) -

I feel like part of the problem may just be that it's a really boring game to watch.

Comebacks seem non-existent in that game. Between how time works in that game, only having to eliminate a single person, etc. it's just not super fun to watch it. I feel like it's probably not super fun to play for similar reasons on the big stage. It may be a fun game if you're playing at sort of a casual level, but, I feel like if you're playing fighting games at the level that most of the guys that play at Evo are, it doesn't offer so much of the things that other fighting games offer. It's a lot harder to make a comeback because of time and single elimination and such low damage. Paired with the fact that during EVO, from what I could tell, there's no use of gems because it's just not a good system for that kind of scene (wastes time, having to have all gems unlocked on all their consoles, etc.) It just doesn't seem good for that kind of stage.

#9 Edited by MooseyMcMan (10552 posts) -

@FLStyle: I had forgotten that this thing has gotten so big and everything that they need to be all organized and timely, so yeah, that wouldn't really be a good solution.

Edit: @Baillie: Every other fighting game I've ever played (including ones made by Capcom) have the option to turn off the time limit, so I would think it would be an option, but then again, I'm no expert on fighting games.

#10 Posted by Chaser324 (6342 posts) -

@AjayRaz said:

i've heard that it's boring to watch. sounds good enough to me

I know I definitely tuned out whenever it was being shown during EVO 2012.

Moderator
#11 Posted by projectino (27 posts) -

The game is just boring to watch and play... isn't much to say about it really. There are rebalancing the game, but I honestly have no idea what they could do to make the game viable.

#12 Posted by Hadoken101 (729 posts) -

@MooseyMcMan said:

@FLStyle said:

@psylah: More matches finish with timeouts than KOs and jabs are all powerful with regards to block-stun, among other things.

Couldn't they just turn off the time limit if timeouts are and issue? Obviously it wouldn't negate the other issues, but still.

Turning off timelimit just opens up another problem of matches going 15 minutes because of players turtling and not wanting to do anything crazy.

#13 Posted by OwnlyUzinWonHan (1478 posts) -

Mike Ross not caring at all during top 8 SFxT was one of my favorite moments, so I guess it was good for that.

#14 Posted by ArbitraryWater (11492 posts) -

Watch the SFxT top 8. Now watch say... the KoF XIII or UMvC3 top 8.

#15 Posted by Jimi (1126 posts) -

It's so boring, timeouts all day and the gem system is retarded.

#16 Posted by StarvingGamer (8031 posts) -

Pretty much what everyone already said. The game has a very slow pace which makes it boring to watch to anyone that is not DEEPLY invested in the game and its mechanics. Also all the madness over on-disc DLC and Gems ended up coloring a lot of peoples opinions, overshadowing the quality of the fighting systems at the core of the game. It's a shame because the game is incredibly fun to play and is especially fascinating to a player like me that really likes to dig deep into fighting game design.

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#17 Posted by BisonHero (6235 posts) -

@ArbitraryWater said:

Watch the SFxT top 8. Now watch say... the KoF XIII or UMvC3 top 8.

It seemed like literally nobody in the SFxT top 8 gave much of a shit until the grand final. Or possibly everyone is just a complete noob at the game except for Infiltration and Laugh.

It was incredibly boring to watch.

#18 Posted by xaLieNxGrEyx (2605 posts) -

Because the game is complete trash and an insult to SF and Tekken.

That's why.

#19 Posted by urban_ryoga (83 posts) -

well, first off, the sales haven't been that great. Secondly, between the gems, quick combos, and three-hit combo that does a tag out, the game isn't tournament friendly. The gems can fortunately be removed from play, but the process to do it at home is excruciating. I've honestly given up attempting to. Quick combos in that game is almost the equivalent of Easy option back when Capcom ported fighters to the GBA and gamecube (on gba the big offender was SFA3, on Gamecube it was CvSNK 2(?)}. Quick combos cannot be disabled in the game. It is considered cheap to use in tournaments because it requires no skill and usually upsets the tournament players when it happens to them accidentally. The three hit combos have the same issue as well as the quick combos, but this is in even less control of the player. Similar reasoning is why the Blazblu push never happened when the last version of that game came out.

Also sales. I say this knowing that I don't have full stats for the game. I can tell from two sources that it is shit. Vgchartz says that it sold .61 million units worldwide on all platforms. Amazon ranks the ps3 version at #952 and the 360 version at #1152~. As a comparison for amazon (their algorithim is wierd. deals with number of units recently sold and other stuff), Street fighter IV ps3 vanilla is ranked around 800 and Halo 3 is currently 192. While not a definitive answer, I'm sure people can find more circumstantial evidence with other retailers (like the current price it is selling for).

Regardless, the number of sales for a game typically gives an idea just how much participation will be in a particular tournament. The obscene turnout was for SFIV AE and UMVC3 (ok, mainly UMVC3). MK9 and KoF13 had decent turnout. VF5FS was mainly foriegn (since the game just landed on US consoles) and SFxT was barely existent for other reasons.

Non-factors:

DLC characters

The typical evo judgement call is to make sure there is enough time of the game being out to determine if characters are broken or not for tournament play. E.G. Mortal Kombat 9 had Evo participation, but most of the DLC characters came out in short notice of the tournament. Those characters weren't permitted for use that year. Those characters had enough exposure by this year to permit them for play. It also doesn't really matter if they are DLC or not. For the KoF XIII tournament, all characters including DLC were allowed. When SSFIITHDR had a tournament at Evo, Akuma was banned outright.

Pandora Mode

As I'm sure some has eluded to in previous comments, the matches often lead to timeouts. One would think that Pandora mode would help counter timeouts, but this isn't MvC3. Characters don't move that fast and it isn't easy to chase down an opponent.

That is about all I can input without being redundant or being super longer. I'll end this with a slightly different question: why was this game even at Evo? I've seen the fgc go on full assault after the easy option riddled Blazblue update. To even get SFxT running suitably for tournaments despite the tournament mode update takes a lot of prepwork before and it is expected that players will manually disregard another featureset of the game. It isn't even just that, this game is panned by not only tournament players, but casual players as well. It is just all around bad news. I kinda laughed with Seth Killian talked at Evo about being happy that the tournament hasn't sold out, but by including SFxT it did sell out IMO. It compromised the FGCs preferences just to get a low selling game to stream two matches on finals day.

#20 Posted by Carryboy (632 posts) -

Jab frame advantage, timeouts, the way the damage scaling works, throw range decreased making throws nearly non existent leading no opportunity for frame traps and such therefore far easier to block again leads to timeouts, the roll after knock down takes away any kind of wake up mix up game not allowing you to build any kind of momentum, gem system unpractical in a tournament, launched with tons of bugs and infinites, very unbalanced, supers take far to long in both real time and game time, the on disc dlc pissed alot of people off, lastly something i haven't seen a lot of people complaining about but for the little time i played the game seemed dumb was the blockstun on jumping attacks unless it was a meaty jump in jump roundhouse to crouching jab isn't a true blockstring you can dp through it.

I think that's about it unless I'm forgetting anything.

#21 Edited by Itwastuesday (938 posts) -

Gem weirdness and DLC weirdness plays more than a small role in the answer to this question, I think.

I believe they could fix the major complaints having to do with jab hit stun or game timeouts or what have you. However, even if they fix some major balance issues of SFxT, it will still be balanced to be played with gems (an idea many people aren't fond of), the gem menu will still be cumbersome, and we'll still be waiting for the PSP release for the DLC characters to actually come out (although I think that must be pretty soon by now).

#22 Posted by biggiedubs (493 posts) -

@urban_ryoga said:

Pandora Mode

As I'm sure some has eluded to in previous comments, the matches often lead to timeouts. One would think that Pandora mode would help counter timeouts, but this isn't MvC3. Characters don't move that fast and it isn't easy to chase down an opponent.

I think in one of the latest LianghuBBB videos, it shows someone activating Pandora, getting someone into a combo and then dying because they couldn't finish the combo quick enough. Now that's ridiculous.

I also kinda hate games that require the player to learn huge combos in order to just compete. Especially combos off ONE JAB.

#23 Edited by TeflonBilly (4713 posts) -

JabXTimeouts are the most egregious offender as it doesn't lead to exciting play if people are playing smart and to win.

Personally I never managed to get too into the game. It just seemed to messy with Pandora mode, gems and Cross Assault. And this was coming off of loving UMvC3 and vanilla MvC3 as well as SSF4AE and Tekken 6. It didn't manage to satisfy neither camp who was hoping for a fun balanced amalgation of the aforementioned game. I can sense something truly good being buried deep in the systems, but it never clicked for me.

#24 Posted by Oni (2095 posts) -

I'd be very surprised if this game is at EVO at all next year.

#25 Posted by algertman (852 posts) -

I like the game but it has some major problems with stuff.

Damage needs to be increased on a lot of stuff

Timer needs to slow down and it also doesn't stop for animations which can be long.

No come backs.

Not really that flashy.

All of these sort make it boring to watch.

In KoF and SF4 come backs are possible due to the way the game are designed. Which make them interesting. Just look at the KoF Finals from Evo this year and how insane it was.

UMvC3 is horribly unbalanced and if was any other game it would never get away with that crap it pulls. But that game is all about cheese and flash so it makes it interesting to watch.

#26 Posted by laserbolts (5314 posts) -

@FLStyle said:

@MooseyMcMan: Tournament rules I assume, when you remove the time-limit you open up the door to all sorts of crazy problems when trying to run the tournament on time. All the pools have to be finished at a certain time for the quarters to start, same with quarters to semis. Then when you take into consideration that they've only got a certain amount of PS3s for all these different games.

I'd hate to have to run EVO, sounds like a real mind-fuck if you don't plan it with precision many months in advance.

The tournament was super delayed anyways though even with the time limit. Either way EVO was pretty awesome this year especially KOF.

#27 Posted by adam1808 (1386 posts) -

@Carryboy said:

Jab frame advantage, timeouts, the way the damage scaling works, throw range decreased making throws nearly non existent leading no opportunity for frame traps and such therefore far easier to block again leads to timeouts, the roll after knock down takes away any kind of wake up mix up game not allowing you to build any kind of momentum, gem system unpractical in a tournament, launched with tons of bugs and infinites, very unbalanced, supers take far to long in both real time and game time, the on disc dlc pissed alot of people off, lastly something i haven't seen a lot of people complaining about but for the little time i played the game seemed dumb was the blockstun on jumping attacks unless it was a meaty jump in jump roundhouse to crouching jab isn't a true blockstring you can dp through it.

I think that's about it unless I'm forgetting anything.

I don't know what any of this means but I'm happy that someone does. I thought it was just the gem issue.

#28 Posted by Jack268 (3387 posts) -

The game is un-hype.

#29 Edited by psylah (2162 posts) -

All of this input is super-enlightening.

I have yet to play the game, but was very excited until the DLC news came about, which included keeping me from playing as Elena.

Maybe I'll pick it up used sometime and just get the DLC so I can have fun playing as her and not bother trying to perfect my gameplay.

#30 Posted by Demoskinos (14584 posts) -

Even a lot of people I know that are heavy into the fighting game scene are pretty much done with SFxT. Its odd the game just kinda well... bombed.

#31 Posted by Bobby_The_Great (1002 posts) -

I love the game, sad it has such a bad wrap. It's one of the few fighting games I'm very good at (I'm in the 10,000 BP ranged).

#32 Posted by DocHaus (1317 posts) -

@psylah:

Why is the FGC so cold on this game?

Psh. Try being a fan of BlazBlue or even Melty Blood and then come talk to me about how the "fighting game community" is ignoring your baby.

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#33 Posted by GaspoweR (2830 posts) -

I don't know if anyone here knows this but to those who didnt get to watch the Capcom panel in EVO (I watched the archived version on the Srkevo3 channel) they outlined some of the changes being made regarding balance as well as the use of the autoblock and autotech gems. They adjusted the amount of meter being used and meter is also deducted even if you are teching or blocking properly if those gems are equipped. Some of the character balance changes being outlined that I can remember are the following:  Reduced hitbox on the Air tatsu for Ryu, Ken, and Akuma so cross ups are less ambiguous Adjusted jab properties for Rolento and Raven, including block stun and/or recovery (can't remember which one was adjusted or if both were adjusted), and every time a character is jabbed while blocking they are also being pushed further away so they won't be trapped in place while in seemingly perpetual block stun IIRC They are still working on a way to address the time out issue so as of now only balance changes to characters and gems are being addressed in the incoming patch. The DLC characters (along with costumes I believe) will be available to purchase for 20 bucks by the end of the month, 2 months before the Vita version. If you opt to buy the Vita version though and own a PS3, you'll be given a code to get the DLC characters free of charge. The rebalance patch is also being sent out on the same day. Also the people who joined the SF x T team tournament in EVO get codes to DL the characters for free. Just wanted to type this down if anyone in this thread weren't able to read about it else where or didn't get to watch the Capcom panel.

#34 Posted by GaspoweR (2830 posts) -

Ah fuck sorry for the blocky text, guys... The text editor compresses and doesnt recognize spaces in the ios version and I can't seem to edit the text. Laptop is out of commission so I can't properly correct it.

#35 Posted by composite (132 posts) -

I think Tekken is crap, so I have no interest in it. If I want 3d no projectiles, I play VF.

Give me KoF, give me SF, GIVE ME CAPCOM VS SNK!!

#36 Posted by Rhaknar (5939 posts) -

i still want the PC version to fuck around with my only friend that plays fighting games, but not until theres a nice steam sale on it (which, knowing capcom...yeah... >_>)

i fully understand the hate tho

#37 Posted by FLStyle (4594 posts) -

@composite: That has nothing to do with this thread. Go pay a visit to one of the Tekken game's forums.

#38 Posted by ProfessorK (819 posts) -

Aside from the dlc madness, the timeouts and hard swing when it comes to balance hurt it severely. It's telling when the finals are all made up of Ryu teams. That and what I feel was supposed to be the groundbreaking comeback mechanic known as Pandora is all but useless.

Shit, they didn't even use gems. I like the game but it's got way more minuses than pluses for people that take fighting games even the least bit serious.

#39 Posted by SirOptimusPrime (1958 posts) -

Well, everything has already been said, but I just have to post about how ludicrous hit stun and block stun are. Jabs and jump ins have so much fucking stun that it makes doing anything in this game so easy and honestly, detracts from the excitement. You can have a technical fighter that is still based on footsies, hell look at the KoF and VF games.

@DocHaus said:

@psylah:

Why is the FGC so cold on this game?

Psh. Try being a fan of BlazBlue or even Melty Blood and then come talk to me about how the "fighting game community" is ignoring your baby.

Melty Blood is so dead that I feel bad about people trying BBG again. Fucking ultimate in poverty.

*cries in a corner*

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#40 Posted by ProfessorK (819 posts) -

@urban_ryoga: Not to nit pick but removing gems has been made stupidly easy after the tournament mode patch. you just leave gem presets 3-5 empty and bam no gems.

#41 Posted by Sagalla (214 posts) -

As a Tekken fiend and someone that loves SSF4AE, let's just say this game is no good - and after reading some posts here, I'm off to watch some vids of the KOF finals at EVO, later duderz

#42 Posted by ProfessorK (819 posts) -

@FLStyle: I just want to say that you avatar reminds me of ChrisG

#43 Posted by mikey87144 (1669 posts) -

Probably because of the ridiculous DLC business. This game didn't sell well because of that reason.

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#44 Posted by DocHaus (1317 posts) -

@SirOptimusPrime: What does BBG mean in your post?

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#45 Edited by FLStyle (4594 posts) -

@ProfessorK: huh, how about that. He's one of my favourite players too.

FYI this is my Dragon Age: Origins & Awakening mage.

#46 Posted by SirOptimusPrime (1958 posts) -

@DocHaus: Battle By the Gazebo. It's where a few Melty tourneys were run back when Spooky still played it. Never went to one and it makes me sad because half the time they played under some of the worst conditions just for some Melty action. Fucking dudes played on a drinking fountain by a vending machine, from what I heard.

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#47 Posted by churrific (475 posts) -

@SirOptimusPrime said:

@DocHaus: Battle By the Gazebo. It's where a few Melty tourneys were run back when Spooky still played it. Never went to one and it makes me sad because half the time they played under some of the worst conditions just for some Melty action. Fucking dudes played on a drinking fountain by a vending machine, from what I heard.

LOL poverty kings. That's what's up.

#48 Posted by bretthancock (778 posts) -

Heightened expectations and a steady stream of news such as "pay to win" gems completely soured people who never really gave it a chance. When it came out and it had the sound issues with online play that didn't help things. Then when the on disc DLC was announced that made it worse. I think it will have a small comeback but it will be tough.

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