Get out of jail free (aka dragon punch)

#1 Posted by thatpinguino (562 posts) -

Where do you stand on the invincible, 3 frame start-up, do-it-all reversal?  i'm talking about your dragon punches, your yun/yang kicks, your flame kicks.  All of these moves can effectively stop all rush down attempts barring a cross-up and if they are  fadc'd they are completely safe.  
 
I hope that in future street fighter games these moves are made more punishable in some way, be it by removing there fadc-ability or by reducing their invincibility.  As it stands now these moves are the ultimate get out of jail free card for players with bad defense online (yes i know online and offline are two different animals but I have no real offline experience).  Furthermore, by granting a large portion of the cast a go to reversal move plenty of players online simply do not learn proper blocking or  any of their other options.  I think it would be better for the game if the reversals got toned down so that all of the characters had to think when dealing with pressure rather than using the get out of jail free card.

#2 Posted by ThePhantomnaut (6067 posts) -

3rd Strike.

#3 Posted by thatpinguino (562 posts) -

I wasn't around for third strike.  Also didn't the parry system deal with  a lot of potential issues

#4 Posted by LeetBalla (696 posts) -

I don't think you understand Street Fighter. SSFIV is one the most finely tuned fighting games to date. And if wake-up dragon punches are giving you trouble, you need to seriously work on the basics and learn to cross up better. Who do you play?

#5 Edited by ricetopher (1046 posts) -

Don't make 5 frame reversal windows with shortcuts specifically for DPs AND allow the ability for blocked invincible reversals to be made safe.

That's not a stance I see being taken so well here but whatever.

Remove shortcuts and either tighten the window or make reversals non-FADCable and I have no problems

#6 Edited by ThePhantomnaut (6067 posts) -

Not sure about that. Quick recovery is not instant so it gives some time for a player to process a possible shoryu and how to counter it, parry or guard. 3rd Strike shoryus and other related moves are riskier.

#7 Posted by TechHits (1353 posts) -
@thatpinguino said:
As it stands now these moves are the ultimate get out of jail free card for players with bad defense online (yes i know online and offline are two different animals but I have no real offline experience).  Furthermore, by granting a large portion of the cast a go to reversal move plenty of players online simply do not learn proper blocking or  any of their other options.  I think it would be better for the game if the reversals got toned down so that all of the characters had to think when dealing with pressure rather than using the get out of jail free card.

thats  online for you, if you want a deeper game you need to take it offline. If playing offline is impossible... well then be happy that you can play at all. 
 
also ST and 3rd Strike are both games with strict reversal windows, and both of these games can be played online with ggpo. 
#8 Posted by thatpinguino (562 posts) -

i play hakan and they aren't giving me trouble. It is more that i play a character who has no 100% safe way to get out of pressure so I have to pick my spots and really use all of my normals to fight.  Whereas instant reversal having characters can just throw it out and hope it hits, then fadc if it doesn't.  i wish more players had to consider spacing and mind-games from the get go, rather than relying on a completely safe go to move.

#9 Posted by Sooty (8082 posts) -
@TechHits said:
@thatpinguino said:
As it stands now these moves are the ultimate get out of jail free card for players with bad defense online (yes i know online and offline are two different animals but I have no real offline experience).  Furthermore, by granting a large portion of the cast a go to reversal move plenty of players online simply do not learn proper blocking or  any of their other options.  I think it would be better for the game if the reversals got toned down so that all of the characters had to think when dealing with pressure rather than using the get out of jail free card.
thats  online for you, if you want a deeper game you need to take it offline. If playing offline is impossible... well then be happy that you can play at all.  also ST and 3rd Strike are both games with strict reversal windows, and both of these games can be played online with ggpo. 
Well reversals work just as well offline and I've played plenty of people offline that mash DP during block strings. It's so annoying but really you just gotta get your execution down. It only really annoys me when I stop on purpose to go for a throw and just eat a mashed uppercut, if somebody is gonna DP mash like that I just leave gaps in combos on purpose then punish after. It's the only way they'll learn.
 
Although I do think auto correct DP is dumb.
#10 Edited by TaccyP (307 posts) -

Just an FYI, Yun's upkicks and Oni's DP cannot be FADCed on block. Also, most uppercut reversals in the game arent 3 frames and can be safe jumped. All of sagat's are 5 frames, for example.

#11 Edited by ThePhantomnaut (6067 posts) -

An interesting aspect of 3rd Strike is that things like fireballs and uppercuts would occur usually during combos not as individual moves. In the first two rounds, you see Ruu (Ryu) and Kokujin (Dudley) trying to perform a shoryu and jet upper respectively after quick recovery. Each parry their own uppercuts. If this was using SFIV quick recovery, it would have been a different story. Once 3rd Strike Online Edition comes out, players who do the popular online tactic will get punished like hell. "I JUST WASTED 15 DOLLAS!!!!"

#12 Posted by StaticFalconar (4849 posts) -

If you make stuff less safe, it will be a true turtle fest, since just about anything you throw out isn't safe so why throw it out when you can just wait for the other guy to throw it out? 
 
No thank you. 

#13 Posted by thatpinguino (562 posts) -
@StaticFalconar: I am not talking about making all moves less safe.  i'm talking about reducing the usefulness of invincible reversals so that more characters have to use multiple reversal/ anti air options.  All characters have anti-air normals, most players online don't use them because the dp is better.   It would be nice if players were forced to learn all of their characters tools rather than just use one.
#14 Posted by Pessh (2451 posts) -

Safe jump, frame trap, bait, there's plenty of shit you can do, DPs are fine, super punishable.

#15 Posted by Elazul (1327 posts) -

I honestly didn't understand half of what you said, but what's wrong with baiting them and hitting them on the way down? I'm not the best SF player by any means, but players that over use dragon punches are not hard to punish.

#16 Posted by thatpinguino (562 posts) -

The problem I have is not that dps are unstoppable, it is that they are such good reversal options that people rely entirely on them rather than learning other ways to escape pressure.  
 
For example when I use hakan and I get rushed down I have to use a combination of normals, coward crouch, spd, focus attack, and regular throws  to safely escape or counter attack.  Characters with invincible reversals only need to throw it out then fadc, thus escaping the rush of attacks.  It is the difference between having to completely learn a character's options and finding that one option is always correct.

#17 Posted by jaycee13 (523 posts) -

I do hate the super fast reversals with shortcuts in this game. I play third strike more regularly than this these days anyway so it doesn't get a chance to irk me as much. Can't wait for online edition.

#18 Edited by Pessh (2451 posts) -
@thatpinguino: Except they can't fadc if they don't have two bars, and that makes it extremely predictable when they will and won't, if it whiffs you eat free punish so its far from being always the correct answer, not everyone (albeit the minority) can fadc their upper anyway. The srk won't even come out if you frame trap them, let alone be fadced and safe jumps render them useless on wakeup. You're overrating them, and who are you to say they don't know the other ways, maybe they just choose to use srk because it's the best option, when I'm playing I don't handicap myself by doing a less effective move just to show that I can. And this
 

All of these moves can effectively stop all rush down attempts barring a cross-up and if they are  fadc'd they are completely safe.  

Is just...
 
They're hardly a get out of free jail card but that's the point of them, they're generally reversals/aas.
 
'People should learn all their tools' is a nice sentiment and I agree but srks are fine in my opinion.
#19 Posted by Scooper (7882 posts) -

You need 2 bars to FADC them to make them safe so they're not free by definition. 
 
I don't like that you can just mash the corner of the stick and keep pressing punch and an uppercut will come out if it's not a true blockstring. I prefer it a lot more when you had to guess when their blockstring would fail, do a precise motion and button press to be able to reversal. But anyways, mashers are easily dealt with. Just do a blockstring and end it prematurely then block & punish. 
 
Uppercuts are amazing wakeup tools if you've got 2 bars to make them safe but they're not the get out of jail card that you're suggesting. 
 
Saying that, Yun's upkicks are pretty bullshit because for a lot of character you can't punish it.

#20 Posted by TheLegendofLuke (563 posts) -

I got an angry message from some guy the other day for mashing DP and it made me think: 
 
MAN, I LOVE MASHING DP. 
 
It's great, fuck you all.

#21 Posted by thatpinguino (562 posts) -
@Pessh: Maybe i am overrating them a bit but like you said
 
 @Pessh said:
maybe they just choose to use srk because it's the best option, when I'm playing I don't handicap myself by doing a less effective move just to show that I can.
 I wish that those less effective moves were used at all in lower levels of play.  i can't remember the last time I was anti-aired by ryu's standing fierce or ken's or akuma's, the way the game is now there is very little reason to use those moves other than as combo openers.
#22 Posted by mnzy (2909 posts) -

I like the system, more punishable attacks would restult in an even more defensive version of the game. 
You DP and I block, you will lose 2 meters or get punished. You whiff, you get punished. I don't see the problem.
its NOT a "get out of jail free card" because there is always a counterplay to everything in SF.
Street Fighter is guessing, rock-paper-scissors and all that, it's what makes big part of the fun.
 
What I don't really like are option selects, because they take parts of this guessing game away and are very hard to punish if done correctly.

#23 Posted by thatpinguino (562 posts) -
@mnzy: But what about the alternative? You dp, it hits, the guy fadc's for safety, but since it hit that fadc turns into an fadc ultra now you eat 40-50 % of your life bar because someone through out a random uppercut and fadc'd to make it safe.  The same input that makes it safe also leads to huge damage if it hits.  The risk vs. reward in this case is strongly in favor of the person throwing the dragon punch.
#24 Posted by mnzy (2909 posts) -
@thatpinguino: If I attack somebody with 2 meters and Ultra, I deserve it and if he FADCs to safety after a block, he just lost two meters. A fair system imho.
#25 Posted by MB (11297 posts) -
/a>
Moderator
#26 Posted by thatpinguino (562 posts) -

All dp conversations end in the ken flowchart.  All power to the flowchart.

#27 Posted by Killroycantkill (1361 posts) -

I find them to be pretty crappy as a Makoto/Abel player. I find it total BS when my fist or foot is literally inside the other character but the DP would still hit me because of start up invincibility. While you can bait them out people who know option selects will just be safe all the time. I'd safe option selects are much more of a problem than DPs for the people I'm playing. Letting the game decide the safest route doesn't really show your skill.

#28 Posted by Management (596 posts) -

There are plenty of things you can do against DP's, Uppercuts are some of the easier moves to punish in Street Fighter. That and the fact that if you have a DP option on wake-up people have to respect you and can't just blindly rush you down.

#29 Posted by RaikohBlade (593 posts) -

Get out of jail free? Hardly. Yun can't FADC his up kicks, which many people overlook. Also, you can easily bait such reversals by using advanced cross up tactics with characters that have dive kicks. There are many ways to bait out a dp. And if they miss, the recovery period is so large that you should be able to land a big punish. 

#30 Posted by demontium (4707 posts) -

@thatpinguino said:

i play hakan and they aren't giving me trouble. It is more that i play a character who has no 100% safe way to get out of pressure so I have to pick my spots and really use all of my normals to fight. Whereas instant reversal having characters can just throw it out and hope it hits, then fadc if it doesn't. i wish more players had to consider spacing and mind-games from the get go, rather than relying on a completely safe go to move.

Not true, safe pressure http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkN5xBBjJug

You gotta stay oiled, and you can move in so easily with oiled focus.

#31 Posted by Bravestar (379 posts) -

If you are playing a character with a dp you think they are ok, if you are playing a character without a dp they feel broken. I played a character without one for half a year and I think the main issue is the hitbox. In my opinion Ruy's dp shouldn't have a hitbox that starts at the ground. Make it start at his elbow.
I switched to a character with a dp recently and I still think the hitbox is too good.

#32 Edited by thehuntsmen5434 (427 posts) -

I'm really confused by this topic.  I've never heard of anyone complaining about wake up reversals.  If it lands you lose a bit of life.  If you wiff...... you might get comboed into an ultra for 40-60% life.  I dont think I've ever played anyone who just always used it getting up and didn't just get their ass handed to them immediately on the way down.  And if they FADC out to make it safe then they just wasted a bar of ex that could've been used for anything else.  (bait wake up shoryuken with block, into raging demon.  Last time they will ever get up with shoryuken again)

#33 Edited by Necrotrophic (261 posts) -

while i agree that the reversal window should be tighter, like it was in older games, dealing with reversals isnt that bad in ssf4. 
 
im more concerned with the input leniency. mashing is bad, and its the biggest problem with sf4 because it makes it so people can play with a hur hur strategy.  
 
also, fadc cancelling of dps is perfectly fine. 9/10 times they throw afterwards. tech it. 

#34 Posted by thatpinguino (562 posts) -

My issue with the fadc cancel is not that it just makes dp's safe, it is that for many characters the fadc can immediately go int ultra, like ryu, sagat, adon, ken, evil ryu, yang, ect.  The payoff by correctly guessing on a dp can be as much as 40-50% damage if you have enough ultra meter, the risk of using a reversal is almost zero when you have two meters.  I understand that the 2 meter cost is substantial but the rest of the cast has to often use ex moves to have any kind of invincible reversal at all and as such they need three meters to be able to fadc to safety.  For example Rufus requires three meters to even have access to a safe version of his best reversal, the ex messiah.  Same goes for dudly and his jet upper.  That doesn't even get into the characters who have no safe reversal options.

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