Do you Consider Team Fortress 2 A Competitive Game ?

#1 Posted by turbomonkey138 (4950 posts) -
#2 Posted by turbomonkey138 (4950 posts) -

I do becuase I've been playing it with my clan for a while now .  But my Mate and i had a argument over it . He thinks that it cant be a Competitive game becuase of its cartoonish style of graphics . What do you guys think ?

#3 Posted by Atlas (2445 posts) -

Your mate is an idiot. The cartoony nature of the graphics has no bearing on the competitive nature of the gameplay. I don't play Team Fortress 2, but from all I've seen of it, it does seem to be one of the most competitive multiplayer shooters.

#4 Posted by EvilTwin (3324 posts) -

The very nature of the game is competition.  Do you mean competitive in the "professional gaming" sort of way? 

#5 Posted by turbomonkey138 (4950 posts) -
@EvilTwin: Yes . Sorry if that wasn't clear
#6 Posted by MattyFTM (14384 posts) -

What do the graphics have to do with the competitiveness of a game? Tell your friend he is an idiot.

Moderator
#7 Posted by Mu5hy (124 posts) -

CEVO and ESEA both run online leagues for it, a lot of 'big name" organizations have teams for it, like complexity and EG, and there a plenty of Lan Tournaments with cash prizes that feature TF2.

So, yeah, TF2 is a competitive game.

#8 Posted by Meowayne (6084 posts) -

One of the stupider things I've read this week. Ask your friend if he considers card games to be competetive - after all, playing cards are cartoonish.

#9 Posted by Meowayne (6084 posts) -

Is this your friend?


#10 Posted by Time_Lord (717 posts) -

I don't play Team Fortress 2. But it seems to have a massive community that plays it competitively.   

#11 Posted by turbomonkey138 (4950 posts) -
@Meowayne: Lol not far off
#12 Posted by Akeldama (4247 posts) -

what a fail of a thread. 

#13 Posted by turbomonkey138 (4950 posts) -
@Akeldama: Hmm ?
#14 Posted by Akeldama (4247 posts) -
@turbomonkey138 said:
" @Akeldama: Hmm ? "
this is one of the most retarded questions i have ever been asked. 
#15 Posted by turbomonkey138 (4950 posts) -
@Akeldama: Well thanks for being a dick about it :)
#16 Posted by Tebbit (4465 posts) -
@Akeldama said:
"@turbomonkey138 said:
" @Akeldama: Hmm ? "
this is one of the most retarded questions i have ever been asked. 
"

And you didn't even answer it, for shame :p

Back to the topic:

I would never play it competitively, because i'm not really hardcore enough for that malark, but I can definately see how it could be played to a professional level. It's pretty balanced, and despite that, it's hella fun!
#17 Posted by Akeldama (4247 posts) -
@turbomonkey138 said:
" @Akeldama: Well thanks for being a dick about it :) "
if you mean competitive as in "head to head" than that is totally retarded and painfully obvious. If you mean a contender for MLG, than no. 
#18 Posted by turbomonkey138 (4950 posts) -
@Akeldama: If you read my previous posts you would know this answer . Yes i mean played in tournaments etc . 
#19 Posted by Akeldama (4247 posts) -
@turbomonkey138 said:
" @Akeldama: If you read my previous posts you would know this answer . Yes i mean played in tournaments etc .  "
perhaps that should have been stated by you in the topic title rather than some other guy like 5 comments down. 
#20 Posted by Nerje (59 posts) -

For a game to be considered "competitive" it needs to exhibit balance.  You need to be able to say "Team A is better than Team B".  Both teams need to start on (relatively) even terms and each be given the same advantages that the other team has, or in some cases one team must be given different advantages to compensate for those that they don't have. Let's look at a few examples:

Halo 3

Halo is great as a competitive game for a few reasons.  The main reason is that after each encounter, the player gets their health regenerated to full.  This means that at most times, all players are on nearly even terms in regards to how much damage they can take.  The other great reason is that players nearly always have a variety of methods to deal that damage to their opponent.  They can fire their primary weapon, they can move in for a melee attack, or they can throw grenades.  This means that each encounter can be dealt with using a different strategy, unlike other FPS game which revolve around simply being quicker and more accurate than your opponent.  The design of the maps also has a big part in the balance.  If one team spawns near a sniper rifle, then the other team will probably spawn near another rifle, or the rockets, or something similar.  Finally, each player can only carry two main weapons, which means you can assess what advantages your opponents have before an encounter.

MLG games, which would arguably be considered the pinnacle of competitive console gaming, take things a step further.  Take soccer for instance - it's about getting the ball into the goal at your opponent's end of the pitch.  If you get together with your ten of your friends in a clearing, and divide into two teams of 6 and 5, then you play a game using the gaps between trees as the goals, then the game cannot be considered competitive.  The team with more players has the advantage of numbers.  One team might have a wider gap between the trees.  The clearing might be slightly sloped so that one team has to run harder uphill.  What does soccer have to do with MLG, you ask?  Well, MLG games are primarily played on symmetrical maps with identical weapon loadouts at either end, the same way competitive soccer is played on a flat pitch, with the same sized goals and the same amount of players on either team.  In competitive soccer, the rules are very restricted and enforced equally on both sides, while in that clearing you might make a few exceptions for when you make a small mistake like touching the ball with your hand.  MLG condenses the range of weapons available so that there are less discrepancies in balance - if your team has both of the available sniper rifles, it's only because your team played better and managed to gain control of them.

Street Fighter

Street Fighter is a harder game to define but a lot of different factors are involved, while there are a lot of the same.  Yes, there are some characters that are vastly overpowered by other characters, but especially in the competitive environment, the player is given a choice of which character they select.  Some tournaments allow for double-blind character selection, which means that both players select their starting character without knowing which character the other player selected.  This prevents one player from starting with an automatic advantage over the other and requires the player to assess the opponent's strengths and weaknesses before an encounter.  Both players have the same range of strong, medium and light punches and kicks, activated by the same range of buttons and a joystick - competitve Street Fighter disallows controllers with turbo buttons and the like.

Here's where I'm going to blow your mind.  Street Fighter and Halo work on the same main principle: controlling space.  Crazy, huh?  In Street Fighter, your character has an array of special attacks that your opponent may not have access to.  Competitive Street Fighter players are all pretty much as capable as each other when is comes to executing these attacks.  It comes down to how they use these special attacks to control the space in front of them.  Here's an example:  Ryu can throw fireballs, controlling the horizontal space in front of him.  You need to jump to avoid it, but if you jump forward you may move into the space controlled by his Shoryuken uppercut.  Say you're playing Zangief - you basically only control the space immediately in front of you, although can deal excessive amounts of damage if you get that advantage, but you can also use the spinning clothesline through fireballs withoutbeing hurt.  Your Ryu opponent knows this, and will be wary of throwing fireballs at you.  On the other hand, he might be using them to force you to keep spinning close enough for him to perform the Shoryuken move, which due to your size, will hit you twice.  This is a great example of how balance is implemented in the game.  Now let's look at how this same principle is found in Halo.

For the purposes of this example, we'll be imagining that each team is a high level MLG competitor, with the maximum communication, accuracy and reaction time.  You are holding a sniper rifle, and are forcing the opponent to get into cover to avoid death.  The sniper rifle, like Ryu's fireball, controls a certain corridor of space.  In order to remove the threat, the opponent needs to get in close, and deal damage with their shotgun, a bit like Zangief's powerful throws.  They might use grenades to force you back into cover, or move around the back where you can't see them until it's too late.  They might split up and all attack you at the same time with mid-range weapons like the battle rifle.  To prevent this happening, you might move away so that when they come put into the open there is not target to fire upon, instead leaving them prone to a rocket launcher attack from your teammate.

This is where a good game can be considered a great competitive game.  By giving all of the players the same options, a la Halo, or by giving the players options which counteract each other, a la Street Fighter, the game become less about who has the better dexterity on the control pad, and instead who is better at out-thinking their opponent.  A good thing to note is that when Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo was re-released in HD, along with some obvious balances in the strength of attacks, all of the complicated moves had the commands replaced with simpler ones.  All of a sudden, being good as Zangeif does not rely on your ability to input a full circle motion on the joystick, but instead how, where and when you perform that Spinning Piledriver move.

So ultimately, the question is, does Team Fortress 2 exhibit these qualities?

Team Fortress 2

Team Fortress 2 operates roughly the same as Halo 3.  You can't go into open spaces covered by a Sniper, you can't stay exposed to a Heavy for more than a few moments before being killed.  However, the role you play on the battlefield is more rigidly defined by your class, while the range of actions each player can perform varies more greatly and makes for a more interesting game.  I haven't played much TF2 but I do quite like the dynamics introduced by the Engineer class and the Spy.  The issue that is raised, however, is that this might introduce too many variables for the game to be considered tight and competitive.  Will a team full of Snipers always dominate a team full of Heavies?  Would you end up with games that are simply sniperfests?  Of course, this could be limited and augmented similarly to the way MLG does it, maybe by creating a restricted team structure like soccer.  In a soccer team, there is one goalkeeper who plays under different conditions to the other ten players on their team - what if a competitve TF2 team was required to have two Scouts, two Heavies, one Sniper, three Soldiers (and so on)?  The other issue is the maps.  Two Fort is a great classic map, and is evenly balanced for both sides.  Some maps might be considered too unevenly balanced for competitive play and would have to be omitted.  At this stage, I would say that yes, Team Fortress 2 is a fantastic game and lots of fun.  But it would require a level of control in order to be successful in the competitive space like the previously mentioned games.

Oh, and I would punch your friend in the face for what he said.

If you want to know more about competitive gaming, you should check out David Sirlin's book "Playing to Win".  It's free on Google books to view on the Internet, but you can still buy it, and he certainly deserves your money - he was the guy who rebalanced Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD ReMix in the manner mentioned before.

#21 Posted by Nerje (59 posts) -

Sorry I forgot to preface that short post with the following:  As I am not involved in TF2, I cannot make any definitive calls on what already exists in the competitive space.  I know that the things I talked about might already be in place or whatever, anything I say about TF2 is simply an opinion and based on me calling it like I see it (even from my limited perspective).

#22 Posted by turbomonkey138 (4950 posts) -
@Nerje: Its all about communication . A team the moves together will always win in team fortress 2 . A usual team consists of 2 soldiers 2 scouts a medic and a demo man . also 2 fort is not played competitive matches  its mainly capture points or payload maps
#23 Posted by Nerje (59 posts) -
@turbomonkey138: similar to Halo then, the team that communicates and strategises wins, not just who is better at shooting the opponent
#24 Posted by Gamer_152 (14078 posts) -

I hate to say this but your mate is a bit of an idiot. Like any game of its kind Team Fortress 2 can be played competitively, in fact I know one guy who considers himself a semi-professional Team Fortress 2 player and can go on endlessly about his clan servers and strategic approaches. However I prefer to take a more relaxed approach to the game and just have fun.

Moderator
#25 Posted by turbomonkey138 (4950 posts) -
@Gamer_152: I agree
#26 Posted by dartagnan (71 posts) -

I play competitively (cevo-, twl div.2), so obviously it'd be a yes for me. However the community is still quite small compared to other fps' (1.6, source, even cod4),.

Nerje is sort of correct, at this point, virtually all big leagues limit each team to 6 players, allowing 1 medic, 1 demo, and 2 of every other class. The main lineup used is 1 medic, one demo, 2 soldiers, and two scouts, however 1 scout is often exchanged for other classes(mainly spy/sniper) in certain situations.

Also, 2fort is a horrible competitive map, in fact, the entire ctf gametype isn't played here in NA, I think the euro scene plays a few of them (ctf_turbine) but overall, it doesn't work too well with tf2. The most popular type is 5 point, linear cp maps like badlands and granary. A/D maps (gravelpit) are also played, but there are very few good ones out atm.

#27 Posted by dartagnan (71 posts) -
@Gamer_152:  Do you know his name/team?

@turbomonkey138 Payload isn't really played competively.
#28 Posted by Gamer_152 (14078 posts) -

@dartagnan said:

"@Gamer_152:  Do you know his name/team?

No I don't, sorry.

Moderator
#29 Posted by JJOR64 (18992 posts) -

Why can't it be?  Any game with online could become a competitive game.  Also, tell your friend he is a moron.  Tons of people play Pokemon competitively and it has cartoon graphics.  I play Street Fighter IV online and the game has a cartoon feel to it.

#30 Posted by Bald3rdash (253 posts) -
@Nerje: Holy christ wall of text, batman!

But yeah, TF2's a competitive game, so what if it has a different style?  It's one of the most intricate and challenging FPS games available.  I like to play me some Spah.
#31 Posted by SJSchmidt93 (4895 posts) -

No. You just shoot the other team for shits and giggles.

#32 Posted by atomic_dumpling (2473 posts) -

No. It's a ton of fun, but it's too based on luck with the mini crits and all.

#33 Posted by Peach (63 posts) -

Critical Hits are the only things I find that can stop TF2 from being a competitive game. They are completely random and sometimes unfair (soldier with 3 crit rockets following each other WTF??).

#34 Posted by turbomonkey138 (4950 posts) -
@Peach said:
" Critical Hits are the only things I find that can stop TF2 from being a competitive game. They are completely random and sometimes unfair (soldier with 3 crit rockets following each other WTF??). "
They disable random crits in matches mate . They only way you can get crits in a match now is a Kritzkrege
#35 Posted by Cyber34 (7 posts) -

There are enough comp tf2 teams and different leagues that would tell you that it is in fact a comp game.

#36 Posted by AlwaysAngry (2924 posts) -
@turbomonkey138 said:
" @Peach said:
" Critical Hits are the only things I find that can stop TF2 from being a competitive game. They are completely random and sometimes unfair (soldier with 3 crit rockets following each other WTF??). "
They disable random crits in matches mate . They only way you can get crits in a match now is a Kritzkrege "
It only took you 7 months to get back to him on that XD
#37 Posted by turbomonkey138 (4950 posts) -
@AlwaysAngry said:
" @turbomonkey138 said:
" @Peach said:
" Critical Hits are the only things I find that can stop TF2 from being a competitive game. They are completely random and sometimes unfair (soldier with 3 crit rockets following each other WTF??). "
They disable random crits in matches mate . They only way you can get crits in a match now is a Kritzkrege "
It only took you 7 months to get back to him on that XD "
I had to do some long research haha
#38 Posted by Bass (692 posts) -

Im going to shake it up a bit and say that TF2 isn't competitive. The reason being that to be competitive, the games ruleset has to be changed, stats modified, and classes completely ignored. TF2 is a casual game through and through. Competitive "leagues" don't play TF2, they play a modded version. 
 
Its competitiveness has nothing to do with the graphics, however.

#39 Edited by ajamafalous (11994 posts) -
@Bass said:

" Im going to shake it up a bit and say that TF2 isn't competitive. The reason being that to be competitive, the games ruleset has to be changed, stats modified, and classes completely ignored. TF2 is a casual game through and through. Competitive "leagues" don't play TF2, they play a modded version.   Its competitiveness has nothing to do with the graphics, however. "

By that line of thought, many other popular league games aren't competitive either.
#40 Posted by trophyhunter (5800 posts) -

It two teams of people fighting each other how is that not competitive?
It sure aint co-op

#41 Posted by gakon (1952 posts) -
@ajamafalous said:
" @Bass said:

" Im going to shake it up a bit and say that TF2 isn't competitive. The reason being that to be competitive, the games ruleset has to be changed, stats modified, and classes completely ignored. TF2 is a casual game through and through. Competitive "leagues" don't play TF2, they play a modded version.   Its competitiveness has nothing to do with the graphics, however. "

By that line of thought, many other popular league games aren't competitive either. "
Yeah, I'm not sure how server variables (damage spread, crit rate, etc.) can be seen as all that different from, say, Halo 3's (which is played competitively) game type options, of which there are tons and tons.  Halo 3 has MLG rules and such.
#42 Posted by Bass (692 posts) -
@ajamafalous said:
" @Bass said:

" Im going to shake it up a bit and say that TF2 isn't competitive. The reason being that to be competitive, the games ruleset has to be changed, stats modified, and classes completely ignored. TF2 is a casual game through and through. Competitive "leagues" don't play TF2, they play a modded version.   Its competitiveness has nothing to do with the graphics, however. "

By that line of thought, many other popular league games aren't competitive either. "
And I would agree with that. Games like MW2 aren't competitve either. 
A great example of a competitve game is CS. The rules of the game dont need to be modified in order for it to harbor a great competitive community
#43 Posted by Jimbo (9811 posts) -

If mutliple teams or individuals are playing a game and trying to beat each other, then it's competitive.  Whether it's fair or not, and whether league x plays it or not, has no bearing on this at all.  That's a different answer to some totally different question than the one in the thread title.

#44 Posted by TehOrangeScare (6 posts) -

It is, but I tend to focus on having pure silly fun, for better or worse...

#45 Posted by Hourai (2795 posts) -

Yes. Whenever I play, there are always people talking on mic about the match. There is rarely a match that's just "hey let's just shoot dudes lol". There is always competition and teamwork going on. 

#46 Posted by Sooty (8082 posts) -

Absolutely.

#47 Posted by Dipstick (546 posts) -

As a medic in CEVO-A (with hopes of CEVO-P next season) I would say so :)

#48 Posted by strangemodule (42 posts) -

This game has been played in a tournament environment for a little while now, so TF2 by definition is a competitive game. One thing I worry about however is how the game is always changing due to various tweaks, item additions, and map additions that are introduced every other patch or major update. It can really throw off old strategies and create brand new ones; it can make a class more powerful than before or become almost worthless in a competitive situation.

#49 Posted by ErrorOperator (458 posts) -

TF2 has one of the fastest competitive scene for a while now. Money prizes are starting to happen and many more LANs are picking up TF2 as a serious game. The cartoonish style is a really bad dig at the game from many Counter Strike Source players, and judging it by its look is very stupid. Team Fortress 2 is easy to learn, but very hard to master! It is so deep in complexity and thats what makes TF2 competitive so fun, people can think up outrageous strategies and sometimes see them work. Also I am a part of the biggest TF2 league in Europe, and I can tell you that in a few weeks your minds will be changed. A Community TF2 Highlander competition has been announced, it is partnered with Valve who are going to make a post about it to, Highlander is 9v9 class limit 1, so a Giant Bomb team or 2 should enter this! 
 
 
 
Also whoever compared TF2 to Halo is an idiot. 

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