Updates screwing up a winning formula?

#1 Posted by mrcool11 (469 posts) -

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy me some TF2 as much as the next guy. But with all the more recent updates that mess with the fundamentals of how a class operates, I personally think that they've maybe gone too far. The pyro, medic, scout and heavy updates allowed those classes to play pretty much the same way they did before, just with some minor differences. The sniper and spy updates changed it up a little more, but the classes still played generally the same way.
Then they totally fucked it up with the WAR! crap. I'm fine with having the new stickybomb and rocket launchers,  but these shield and sword/pickax shenanigans have crossed the line. The entire point of being a soldier/demoman was that you dished out a lot of damage, but you were decently slow. Now there's demomen lunging around everywhere, swording the shit out of people, and soldiers can now run faster than a scout if they're below a certain amount of health. Maybe things have gone somewhat back to normal since the last time I played, but its still utter garbage how they dealt with those two classes. Maybe that sounds like I'm whining cause they changed one of my favourite classes, but you have to admit that it was a bit too drastic of a change.

#2 Edited by Odyssey (115 posts) -

The Demoman stuff looks like Valve's way of trying to create another class. I don't care about them too much, they're just like Pyros but less threatening.
 
The equalizer is pretty annoying, but it's like the only fucking useful thing the Soldier got.

#3 Posted by monster9999 (393 posts) -
@Odyssey: Are u really trying to tell me buff banner isn't useful? Cause ya it definitely is
#4 Posted by Diamond (8634 posts) -

As someone that doesn't play enough TF2 to really unlock a lot of weapons or abilities, yes the game is completely fucked up now, IMO.  There's no playing it competitively for me, I lack most of the special abilities all the other everyday players have.  It's a fucking dumb way to run an online FPS.  I can also tell the character balance is all kinds of fucked up and weird now, too.

#5 Posted by Odyssey (115 posts) -
@monster9999: I sort of thought so too, but giving up your shotgun is too much of a sacrifice for an occasional small buff.
#6 Posted by TheMustacheHero (6655 posts) -

No, but bots are.
 
I went into a server that said 30/32 players and only 3 of the players in that match were real players, the rest were bots.
 It was such a shame.

#7 Posted by Snail (8661 posts) -

I don't really find it nearly as amusing as it used to be at launch day. You know, before all this crap? 
 
I like the Spy update a lot though. But I could totally do without that. I miss that game, Team Fortress 2, it was a good game. This is Team Fortress 2.5. Might as well just release a new game and get this over with.

#8 Edited by Rockanomics (1150 posts) -
@TheMustacheHero: You can set a sorting option for bots by right clicking any of the column names at the top (Server name, player count, ping etc) and add/remove which ever ones you want. 
 
I personally use the filter to remove all servers over 100ms, then click on map, then bots. This shoves all the bot servers to the top so I can ignore them, then I decide which map I want to play and pick the best server. Also you can now blacklist servers that have crap you don't like so they never pop up again.
 
Sorry, bit of an aside. Anyway the problem is they are trying to add in that progression craze that started with BF2 + Modern Warfare, but it's all tacked on in such an awkward way.
 
Tying them to achievements has always been crazy, but making you get all of them was pure insanity. Unless they add in something better it should take 3 cheevos MAX for each unlock. 
The random drops are another bat-shit excuse for a fix, if that's what it is... whatever it is, fuel for the hat smelter I guess.  
Crafting might be useful?? But certainly not yet to me, and not for most until the future when people have a stockpile of extra stuff.
 
Really in all honestly they should just give the weapons to you, they need a fully realized system before making you work for unlocks makes any sense at all. 
But that's the trade-off with the testbed that is TF2! You get a zillion free updates and tons of content, but sometimes the updates contain half-baked ideas. A trade-off I'm fully willing to make myself. 
 
Btw your not missing out a lot by not having the stuff, the only things I would say are truly better than their counterparts are the Ubersaw, Axtinguisher, Equalizer and K.G.B. 
Going sword + shield or demon-soldier can be fun, but they are easily countered.
#9 Posted by monster9999 (393 posts) -
@Odyssey: Ya i think i can do without the shotgun simply because the buff banner helps out the whole time and it can actually be quite devastating if used right.
#10 Posted by Yakow_93 (70 posts) -

I like the war update, i know that the weapons are tottaly different than the stock ones, but its still very much balanced and none class is stronger than the other.

#11 Edited by ErrorOperator (458 posts) -

As an avid Competitive TF2 player, many of these new updates have mainly catered to the 32 man spamfest on most publics. Valve have done well to keep classes well balanced but many weapons are just plain silly, they encourage bad teamplay which is what makes TEAM Fortress 2 so special. In the TF2 league I play in, many unlocks are just limited to one because of how unbalanced they can be ina 6v6 format. Such as the buff banner, making mini crits to all nearby which was seen as way too much to have 2 soldier having one.
 
P.S.
The Scottish Resistance is complete bullshit, the only good thing about it is the taunt!

#12 Posted by HockeyJohnston (76 posts) -

The updates have been amazing. When our server lost connection to Steam and we played a few 'vanilla' games, I realized how much improvement Valve has heaped on that game.  It's much more balanced and dynamic than it was 2 years ago.

#13 Edited by IncredibleBulk92 (936 posts) -

Hmm it seems like competitive TF2 players are completely different from the average TF2 player.  I think the new items are great, new new Sniper equipment means that it's possible to play a much riskier, closer game while the new Soldier equipment encourages precision, preservation and crazy come back killing sprees.  I think the worst weapons that they've added are the ones that are only slightly different and don't change the play style of the class at all, Nataha, the Backburner and the Sandman for example.   I do agree with you with the demo sword shield combo though, it annoys the crap out of me, I'd rather they come up with a completely different weapon to replace the stick bomb.  As Rockanomics said though, each of these setups has a disadvantage to counter the advantages they bring.
 
I liked that persistent rumour that Valve would split TF2 into 2 different games, the current TF2 with over powered and crazy items and then the competitive TF2 with a lot more focus on balance.  Something like that would keep both camps happy. 
 
I just can't wait until they start adding alternate skins for weapons and hats.  That could make TF2 even more diverse.

#14 Posted by HockeyJohnston (76 posts) -

I have never seen any evidence that the competitive TF2 scenesters know anything about building a balanced game -- they just strip it down and make it 6v6, which ends up reducing all the normal complexity to a few moves that pros know well. 
 
Which seems to happen in the 'competitive scene' in every game. I love tournaments, but playing 6v6 is not how TF2 is meant to be played.

#15 Posted by JoelTGM (5596 posts) -

My bro plays a ton of TF2, and he seemed happy with all the recent updates.  I don't play enough for it to matter to me.  I think it's good they're putting the time and effort to keep it fresh.

#16 Posted by ErrorOperator (458 posts) -
@HockeyJohnston said:
" I have never seen any evidence that the competitive TF2 scenesters know anything about building a balanced game -- they just strip it down and make it 6v6, which ends up reducing all the normal complexity to a few moves that pros know well.  Which seems to happen in the 'competitive scene' in every game. I love tournaments, but playing 6v6 is not how TF2 is meant to be played. "
I disagree, i feel that 6v6 is the right amount of players without it getting too spammy. Nothing is stripped down, most weapons are limited to 1, this wasnt because people felt it was unbalanced, it was because they felt that having more of the same weapon drowned out some good quick play. Competitive Team Fortress 2 is much much more complex than a public game, the amount that has to be learnt in terms of what to do and what to call/say is immense. Saying that Competitive TF2 is not complex is a naive and silly thing to do, also comparing TF2 to other competitive E-sports is not a clever thing to do, Team Fortress 2 is wildly different, it is not the usual S&D/CS modes that most esports players are used to. Many Top level CSS players have made a transition to TF2 and have only been able to play at a low Div5 skill level.
#17 Posted by Yakow_93 (70 posts) -

I dont know about you guys, but I really like the new update. 
Yes i understand that playing with sword with demoman is a lot different than camping around with stickies but its still really fun and well ballanced.

#18 Edited by HockeyJohnston (76 posts) -

Calling 6v6 'competitive' is just propaganda, considering it's not really an improvement over vanilla. 10v10 (or higher) actually makes the games somewhat dynamic and doesn't reward lone wolf twitch players. 
   
I mean, 1v1 basketball obviously does a better job of letting 'the best player' win every time -- as opposed to 5v5, which has an element of randomness and chaos built in. But guess what? Reducing team games down (something the CS community is *obsessed* with) doesn't make them more interesting to watch or to play. And it doesn't really make them more competitive either. 

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