Important NPCs being invincible is the worst thing

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#1 Posted by natetodamax (19192 posts) -

Skyrim is probably my personal Game of the Year but one thing really irks me. Unlike Fallout: New Vegas, which did the right thing by allowing you to kill literally everyone in the game, Skyrim does the wrong thing by making important NPCs invincible.

It was really bad two days ago. I was walking through the frozen woods with my compadre Stenvar when we came upon a Stormcloak camp. Keeping with my Imperial Legion ways, I massacred everyone. Strangely enough, the last survivor was a named Stormcloak (forgot his name). He appeared to be severely injured since he was down on the ground, as human enemies tend to do when they're near death. So I went over and did a strong power attack to execute him, but he took no damage. Instead of dying, he stood back up and continued attacking.

Really? I had hoped after New Vegas that we would be done with this, but I guess we aren't. There just had to be one thing about Skyrim that really, really disappoints.

What do you guys think? Does this irritate you as well?

#2 Posted by Animasta (14673 posts) -

remember that obsidian did New Vegas; dunno if you could kill important NPC's in 3, but I don't BELIEVE so...

#3 Posted by Vinny_Says (5700 posts) -

Imperial Scum!!

#4 Posted by natetodamax (19192 posts) -

@Animasta said:

remember that obsidian did New Vegas; dunno if you could kill important NPC's in 3, but I don't BELIEVE so...

Fallout 3 had invincible NPCs as well. One of the things touted about New Vegas before it came out was the ability to kill everyone.

#5 Posted by Animasta (14673 posts) -

Sure, but I assume that Bethesda doesn't think they can handle it, and the reason new vegas worked was that you didn't see the major players of the conflict until the end; general oliver/ legate lanius. You can go to whiterun right after the tutorial and see Ulfric just chillin on his chair

#6 Posted by ArtelinaRose (1850 posts) -

I just did the EXACT same thing and thought it was pretty dumb how I couldn't completely slaughter the camp full of racist traitors.

#7 Posted by theguy (796 posts) -

I would prefer an awesome quest to killing one more dude.

#8 Posted by Bwast (1342 posts) -

It's either you're upset that you can't kill everyone or you're upset because you killed the quest giver to that awesome axe you want. It's not an elegant solution by any means but I definitely prefer it to missing out on a piece of loot.

#9 Posted by SuperWristBands (2266 posts) -

In this situation it is pretty lame. I wish they would do this for your companion. Sure they don't die by enemy attacks but if they happen to get in the way of an arrow or shout (happens often) and if it would kill them, it does. I have killed Lydia far to many times, which would force me to reload my save 'cause I don't want her dead.

#10 Posted by Animasta (14673 posts) -

@SuperWristBands said:

In this situation it is pretty lame. I wish they would do this for your companion. Sure they don't die by enemy attacks but if they happen to get in the way of an arrow or shout (happens often) and if it would kill them, it does. I have killed Lydia far to many times, which would force me to reload my save 'cause I don't want her dead.

there's literally like 20 companions you can take along with you

#11 Posted by Dagbiker (6966 posts) -

I really do not want to look up gamefaqs every time i kill a guy.

#12 Posted by SuperWristBands (2266 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@SuperWristBands said:

In this situation it is pretty lame. I wish they would do this for your companion. Sure they don't die by enemy attacks but if they happen to get in the way of an arrow or shout (happens often) and if it would kill them, it does. I have killed Lydia far to many times, which would force me to reload my save 'cause I don't want her dead.

there's literally like 20 companions you can take along with you

I assume there is only one of Lydia.

#13 Posted by adoggz (2062 posts) -

i fucking know, i really wanted to murder the jarl of a certain city cause the whole city is shit and pissed me off

try to murder me then frame me for murder and throw me in jail forever will you? FUCK NO!

so i wanted to murder him a a few other dudes. i gave no shits about any quests i would miss out on but i couldnt. there should be some option that says something like " if you kill this guy you will be unable to do quests for him and other people who will hate you forever and stuff, do you really wanna kill him?"

Online
#14 Posted by NekuSakuraba (7240 posts) -

@Voxel said:

@Animasta said:

remember that obsidian did New Vegas; dunno if you could kill important NPC's in 3, but I don't BELIEVE so...

Fallout 3 had invincible NPCs as well. One of the things touted about New Vegas before it came out was the ability to kill everyone.

Who couldn't you kill in Fallout?

#15 Posted by Animasta (14673 posts) -

@SuperWristBands said:

@Animasta said:

@SuperWristBands said:

In this situation it is pretty lame. I wish they would do this for your companion. Sure they don't die by enemy attacks but if they happen to get in the way of an arrow or shout (happens often) and if it would kill them, it does. I have killed Lydia far to many times, which would force me to reload my save 'cause I don't want her dead.

there's literally like 20 companions you can take along with you

I assume there is only one of Lydia.

lydia sucks anyway

#16 Posted by Stahlbrand (838 posts) -

I wouldn't mind not having essential NPCs, but I can definantly see why they do it.

Imagine the tidal wave of people crying that they broke their game by killing some Joe Schmoe NPC who is vital to the last half of the game and missed the 'You Broke The Game" message....then played for another 20 hours before finding out.

I did the same thing, wiping out some Imperial camp I chanced upon, and the Legat had to take a knee but wouldn't die, so I beat feet out of there while he was out of it.

#17 Posted by SuperWristBands (2266 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@SuperWristBands said:

@Animasta said:

@SuperWristBands said:

In this situation it is pretty lame. I wish they would do this for your companion. Sure they don't die by enemy attacks but if they happen to get in the way of an arrow or shout (happens often) and if it would kill them, it does. I have killed Lydia far to many times, which would force me to reload my save 'cause I don't want her dead.

there's literally like 20 companions you can take along with you

I assume there is only one of Lydia.

lydia sucks anyway

I disagree.

#18 Posted by PeasantAbuse (5138 posts) -

I liked how Morrowind did it.  If you killed someone who was necessary to complete the main quest, a message popped up saying "yo, this dude is important.  You might want to load a save or something".

#19 Posted by nobel (57 posts) -

@Artemesia: I know I've been playing this game too much because i have the urge to scold you for calling the stormcloaks traitors.

#20 Posted by NekuSakuraba (7240 posts) -

@Vinny_Says said:

Imperial Scum!!

STAY IN YOUR PLACE TRAITOR, YOU HAVE NO HONOUR.

#21 Posted by AhmadMetallic (18955 posts) -
@Animasta said:

Sure, but I assume that Bethesda doesn't think they can handle it

What's there to handle? Make the important NPC's kill-able, and if the player kills them the quest dies out and you're stuck in no-progress limbo. 
#22 Posted by Animasta (14673 posts) -

@AhmadMetallic said:

@Animasta said:

Sure, but I assume that Bethesda doesn't think they can handle it

What's there to handle? Make the important NPC's kill-able, and if the player kills them the quest dies out and you're stuck in no-progress limbo.

This is bethesda man, come on

#23 Posted by deathfury (531 posts) -

I killed a couple of Imperial soldiers and there just happened to be a named, invincible NPC. He proceeded to chase me all across Skyrim, every time I slept he would pop up and start attacking me. It was so annoying I had to reload.

#24 Posted by Spoonman671 (4596 posts) -

I don't see how this is a problem.

#25 Posted by JFetch (119 posts) -

I think they made all the kids smarmy assholes just to piss us off knowing we can't kill them.

#26 Posted by AhmadMetallic (18955 posts) -
@Animasta said:

@AhmadMetallic said:

@Animasta said:

Sure, but I assume that Bethesda doesn't think they can handle it

What's there to handle? Make the important NPC's kill-able, and if the player kills them the quest dies out and you're stuck in no-progress limbo.

This is bethesda man, come on

You're right what was I thinking
#27 Posted by Klei (1768 posts) -

You guys are so nitpicky, it's unbelievable. So, you want to be able to fuck up your main quest because you accidentally AoE'd someone critical to your progress without knowing it? Wow. I mean, just wow.

#28 Posted by chilibean_3 (1635 posts) -

@deathfury said:

I killed a couple of Imperial soldiers and there just happened to be a named, invincible NPC. He proceeded to chase me all across Skyrim, every time I slept he would pop up and start attacking me. It was so annoying I had to reload.

That's pretty great. I mean, terrible...but fantastic.

Yeah, New Vegas style was the way to go.

#29 Posted by natetodamax (19192 posts) -
@Klei
You guys are so nitpicky, it's unbelievable. So, you want to be able to fuck up your main quest because you accidentally AoE'd someone critical to your progress without knowing it? Wow. I mean, just wow.
Not sure why you seem so flabbergasted and upset. To be clear, I'm not someone who tries to kill every potential quest giver. In this specific case it was annoying because I had massacred an entire camp but I couldn't kill the last guy.

In New Vegas it would pop up the quests that you failed when you killed a quest giver. It would have been nice if it was the same in Skyrim. You can at least reload a save if you choose.
#30 Posted by Whitehat (29 posts) -

The names guys stop attacking you if you yield to them

#31 Posted by Pinworm45 (4088 posts) -

This pisses me off too. There's a ridiculous amount of them too. Like, over 50% of NPCs. The vast majority of NPCs in a town. If it's a main quest NPC, fine. but side quest NPCs should be free game.

#32 Posted by Doctorchimp (4074 posts) -

I think a random occasional Crash to Desktop is a lot worse

#33 Posted by FreakAche (2952 posts) -

Yeah, this particularly annoys me, especially considering that I thought this was the type of thing Radiant Story was supposed to eliminate.

#34 Edited by haggis (1677 posts) -

@Klei said:

You guys are so nitpicky, it's unbelievable. So, you want to be able to fuck up your main quest because you accidentally AoE'd someone critical to your progress without knowing it? Wow. I mean, just wow.

If I remember correctly, there was a rather lengthy debate over this a few months back here on these forums. There are, in fact, a lot of people who want to be able to break the game this way. I don't get it either. And I think Bethesda went this route because of the way the story was structured, and because they knew people would bitch about it either way. Honestly, I hesitate to think how much more glitchy the game would be if you could kill anyone at all. Imagine putting in another twenty hours, only to realize that you couldn't progress because you accidentally killed someone in the beginning of the game? I doubt Bethesda wanted to deal with the complications.

#35 Posted by Marz (5648 posts) -

Bethesda isn't Obsidian, they want their story characters to survive any accidents(or murder attempts by the player) so quests wouldn't be broken.

#36 Posted by Animasta (14673 posts) -

@haggis said:

@Klei said:

You guys are so nitpicky, it's unbelievable. So, you want to be able to fuck up your main quest because you accidentally AoE'd someone critical to your progress without knowing it? Wow. I mean, just wow.

If I remember correctly, there was a rather lengthy debate over this a few months back here on these forums. There are, in fact, a lot of people who want to be able to break the game this way. I don't get it either. And I think Bethesda went this route because of the way the story was structured, and because they knew people would bitch about it either way. Honestly, I hesitate to think how much more glitchy the game would be if you could kill anyone at all. Imagine putting in another twenty hours, only to realize that you couldn't progress because you accidentally killed someone in the beginning of the game? I doubt Bethesda wanted to deal with the complications.

what happens then, is you get a bunch of things that pop up that say QUEST FAILED: whatever and you realize that you are killing someone involved in an important quest and that you should reload; it worked for new vegas

#37 Posted by deathstriker666 (1337 posts) -

@NekuSakuraba said:

@Voxel said:

@Animasta said:

remember that obsidian did New Vegas; dunno if you could kill important NPC's in 3, but I don't BELIEVE so...

Fallout 3 had invincible NPCs as well. One of the things touted about New Vegas before it came out was the ability to kill everyone.

Who couldn't you kill in Fallout?

Dad, Elder Lyons, Elder Lyons' daughter, that one bald headed scribe who tells you about the GECK, and various others who are needed for future story moments or pivotal to other quests.

#38 Posted by Make_Me_Mad (3071 posts) -

Ran into this problem earlier. Finished up a certain quest involving a certain undead queen/total badass coming back to retake her city. I may not have gotten the chance to sign up with her army and kick the asses of everyone in her way, but at the very least there was no way in hell my character would ever have turned over her skull/remains to be sanctified in the church.

I did the logical thing and turned in the quest, keeping the remains in my inventory, and went to go finish off the one person who might put an end to any of her future plans for undead vengeance... but lo an behold, this mangy looking undertaker is apparently able to survive roughly 300 magic worth of burning, exploding death and hops back up like nothing happened. Bullshit!

#39 Posted by Subjugation (4720 posts) -

Whoaaaa guys. Hold up. I think you are missing the real problem.

@JFetch said:

I think they made all the kids smarmy assholes just to piss us off knowing we can't kill them.

#40 Posted by Akrid (1356 posts) -

This is one of the big things that makes me want Obsidian to have their crack at every game Bethesda makes from now on. Lending their intricate story-crafting to Bethesda's tech and scope leads to a beautiful thing.

#41 Posted by nintendoeats (5975 posts) -

At GDC last year I attended a talk on player agency (I think, they start to blur together). A big chunk of the talk was devoted to the fact that you could kill he main quest giver in Morrowind. I'm a little dissapointed to see this legacy being discontinued.

#42 Posted by FreakAche (2952 posts) -

@PeasantAbuse said:

I liked how Morrowind did it. If you killed someone who was necessary to complete the main quest, a message popped up saying "yo, this dude is important. You might want to load a save or something".

Except the crazy thing about Morrowind is that it only did this for NPCs essential to the main quest. If you killed someone essential to a side quest or faction quest I don't think it gave you any warning.

#43 Posted by Maginnovision (487 posts) -

I tried killing some travelling cat traders because they had nice stuff. Killed three and the other kept getting up. So... Now he hates me, which means I can't have "access" to him, but I also can't kill him. Why? What's the difference between no access to him and him dead?

#44 Posted by jorbear (2517 posts) -

This is the part where you fall down, AND BLEED TO DEATH.

That always works for me.

#45 Posted by Neferon (262 posts) -

@PeasantAbuse said:

I liked how Morrowind did it. If you killed someone who was necessary to complete the main quest, a message popped up saying "yo, this dude is important. You might want to load a save or something".

I preferred this as well. Though if I think about it, there's many more "vital" npc in Skyrim for one quest or another, then there were in Morrowind.

As long as my quest npcs don't randomly get killed by dragons, I don't mind the occasional immortal npc.

#46 Posted by SlashDance (1814 posts) -

@FreakAche said:

@PeasantAbuse said:

I liked how Morrowind did it. If you killed someone who was necessary to complete the main quest, a message popped up saying "yo, this dude is important. You might want to load a save or something".

Except the crazy thing about Morrowind is that it only did this for NPCs essential to the main quest. If you killed someone essential to a side quest or faction quest I don't think it gave you any warning.

Also the text was way small and went away pretty quickly so if you didn't pay attention you were screwed.

Making NPCs invincible is not a very elegant solution, but I don't mind not having the freedom to break the game.

#47 Posted by Dagbiker (6966 posts) -

@Akrid said:

This is one of the big things that makes me want Obsidian to have their crack at every game Bethesda makes from now on. Lending their intricate story-crafting to Bethesda's tech and scope leads to a beautiful thing.

Then it would be twice as broken and ten fold as liner.

#48 Posted by MikeGosot (3227 posts) -

I think that you should have the option to disable Invincible NPC's. After you create your character... BANG! A screen says: "Yo, duder. Do you want to be able to kill everyone? DOn't worry, a message will pop up if you kill an important guy. Also, if you suddenly change your mind, you can change this later at the settings menu." it shouldn't be too hard to do this.

#49 Posted by fisk0 (4031 posts) -

The game is big enough that I think it'd be worth it to miss out on a few quests instead of being told by the game who I get to kill or not. If the people are really important they could, you know, not spawn the NPC into the world until the player has gotten to the point where they're supposed to meet.

#50 Posted by themangalist (1731 posts) -
@deathfury said:

I killed a couple of Imperial soldiers and there just happened to be a named, invincible NPC. He proceeded to chase me all across Skyrim, every time I slept he would pop up and start attacking me. It was so annoying I had to reload.

Ahahaha you sure you didn't piss off the terminator did you.
@Voxel said:
@Klei
You guys are so nitpicky, it's unbelievable. So, you want to be able to fuck up your main quest because you accidentally AoE'd someone critical to your progress without knowing it? Wow. I mean, just wow.
Not sure why you seem so flabbergasted and upset. To be clear, I'm not someone who tries to kill every potential quest giver. In this specific case it was annoying because I had massacred an entire camp but I couldn't kill the last guy. In New Vegas it would pop up the quests that you failed when you killed a quest giver. It would have been nice if it was the same in Skyrim. You can at least reload a save if you choose.
I'm sure a mod would fix that really quickly.

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