I'm sure for a lot of people this isn't a big deal, but anyone who got hardcore into Oblivion knows that this feature saved the combat along with enchantment. This is huge for me. It limits the late game so much. Every hotkey I had in Oblivion was dedicated to a custom spell. I'm thinking they're trying to replace this with the spell combo thing, but I don't think that'll be enough.

The best stock spells in oblivion mostly sucked, besides some of the illusion ones. You used to be able to blow your entire blue bar on something incredibly dumb, but awesome at the same time. (e.g. Frenzy lv 25 area = infinity + invisibility self 60 sec). If you wanted to kill something in 1 sec, go ahead, but be careful not to cast it on someone with spell reflection. This happened to me more than once, but it was great. The end boss in the game had 25% spell reflection, and I literally killed myself with my own spell. And it's not just that. You could also combine 4 or more useful spells, and make them last for a decent amount of time. I always liked summoning armor and combining that with the shield spell, but I didn't always summon the full set of armor cause I didn't like the way the helmet or cuirass looked. That's the kind of freedom I'm talking about. I used to have one spell dedicated for the alteration buffs (walk on water, breath under water, light 20 ft or so, detect life, feather self all for 120 sec. So much better than to cycle through them all). Tell me what good a 75% or whatever stock chameleon percentage they have is going to do you over a custom one. I'd rather use invisibility over chameleon then, assuming they're both still in the game. All this cool shit I could do late game is now gone.

Most of the people who complain about Oblivion's combat never put in the time to do any of this shit. I don't blame them, cause without this stuff you're circle strafing with a sword for 5 minutes until someone falls to the ground. I just hope to god there's no death claw equivalent that kills you instantly, but takes 20 or so hits to kill with your maxed out built for damage character. Cause fuck that.

This makes me incredibly sad... Half of my late game fun in both Morrowind and Oblivion was making crazy spells that sapped my mana bar.

I dunno. Looking back, most of the spells I made were overly powerful destruction spells, or spells to overcome specific limitations of the game.

I think the new spell system should work out well. Instead of having 30 different spells that do one thing, with varying degrees of damage, you'll have fewer spells with a greater variety of effects that level up with you.

I'm definitely skeptical of this change too, but from what they are trying to explain if they can limit what users can do, they can focus more in just adding a lot more unique spells with unique effects. Also without the wide degree of customization, more spells can be tailor-made to be effective. Finally I believe the Bethesda guys wanted to figure out a way to make a lot more fancy spells and it may have made things too complicated if they attempted to keep the spellmaking feature in.

As you said yourself, most spells (like almost the entire school of destruction) is downright useless in the late game unless you make a spell that takes the whole mana bar (a bit nonsensical if you ask me but I favoured alteration, illusion, mysticism and conjuration myself). If they can figure a way to make a majority of the spells actually useful over a longer period of time and in more various scenarios to compensate for this feature removal, then I at least would applaud them for doing that. Time will tell though if this turns out to be a good idea.

EDIT: When I mean limit, I am meaning limiting the variability factor of the spellmaking feature in an effort to make more spells useful than in past games, including ones that turned useless later in the game.

They're not replacing it with any kind of spell combo thing. Like I said in the other thread, they're going with a system of functionally unique spells that have their own situational uses in place of the generic set of simple behavior determinants that spells were comprised of before, which allowed spellmaking to be easy to implement into the game at the cost of any meaningful diversity to the spells outside of their effects.

All the perks you're listing in favor of the spellmaking are basically half recompenses for the base crappiness of Oblivion's magic.

I prefer this system really, makes mages a lot more balanced. I mean what's the point of playing a pure warrior carrying a sword that does 30+20 fire damage when a mage can do a 100 easy.

I think Howard said he thought spell making took 'the magic out of magic'.
I see his point and the new system may prove to be more organic.

Protip: They took out spell creation to make their jobs easier, if your going to "streamline" something make sure it's really only something the old school core Elder Scrolls audience loved (they are after all a smaller percentage of the sales). It has nothing to do with creative choice.

@SlashDance: It is if it requires less QA time and focus testing with sample groups.

Well. That just means the effects for spells are just going to be actual spells right?

Hopefully if they're smart it will scale accordingly and not be gimped, it should be a tad OP and you should be able to make some broken things by combining effects.

They are really streamlining this thing though...hopefully the choices that they took away leave a fun game intact.

If they don't and I'm stuck with a generic one way of doing things Skyrim will fail harder than Oblivion. But if it is a fun game regardless of the things they took out and streamlined that will have an open fun Modding community it might be the best one yet. (Better than Morrowind.)

I think (and hope) that this new system will prove to be better, because one thing it will stop is people making spells such as drain health 100pts for 1 second which is crazy cheap and allows you to just blast through all opposition early on, (though you could make the argument for just not making cheap spells, not that that stopped me) and i hope that by them providing many more spells of the same type that work in different ways e.g. flames, fireball, fire rune, fire storm, fire bolt, (and more i'd imagine), that mages will have an experience that is actually really fun and dynamic, with less of an emphasis on having to create really weird multi effect spells (which i did enjoy doing).

I hope you change your mind once playing it as it seems that all would be mages have got an awesome deal here.

@Korwin said:

Protip: They took out spell creation to make their jobs easier, if your going to "streamline" something make sure it's really only something the old school core Elder Scrolls audience loved (they are after all a smaller percentage of the sales). It has nothing to do with creative choice.

Get your tinfoil hats on everyone, relatively minor game changes are all about money.

Yes, some stuff was OP, but your character should be a little OP at max level. I don't think Bethesda gets that. Just look at Fallout 3. That super mutant overlord crap was insane. It took special items to take out that enemy's massive health, even in sneak mode with the crit buff. I get that they're trying to streamline this shit to make spell effects more unique, but unique spell effects doesn't mean they have to throw away custom spells. Just give us the option to choose the unique spell effect based on what we're putting into it. There's no way the stock spells are going to be as useful or interesting as something custom made.

@Bwast said:

@Korwin said:

Protip: They took out spell creation to make their jobs easier, if your going to "streamline" something make sure it's really only something the old school core Elder Scrolls audience loved (they are after all a smaller percentage of the sales). It has nothing to do with creative choice.

Get your tinfoil hats on everyone, relatively minor game changes are all about money.

Not really dude, if the market research guys find that something will increase market appeal then the development team will be given their directives. The business of games has ever increasingly been getting in the way over the past 5-6 years.

oh no, i can't make a spell that shields and grants water-breathing and unlocks doors all at the same time

My thoughts on this issue can be summarized as:

• I don't care.
• I trust Bethesda.

Morrowind had severe issues with the player being OP after about level 12, a lot of the level scaling bullshit and stuff like this is Bethesda desperately trying (and mostly failing) to balance a 120 hour, 16sq mile game(something I could do while my espresso machine warms up)Not really....

Ice in one hand, Electricity in the other = Shocking-Ice death ray

Unlock in one hand, Water-breathing in the other = Underwater Locksmith?

It seems by taking out the custom spell system they've made a more realistic spell weaving system. Lets be honest, the only reason people are upset about this is because they are unhappy about losing their " Super Uber " spell that does all dmg types, adds all sorts of buffs, drains life etc.

Meh. It's disappointing, but I'll deal with it.

Well, if I as an individual that is not in any way involved in the process of making games can come to the conclusion that taking out custom spells would only work if the stock spells really shine in about 4 seconds Im pretty confident that a big team of experienced professionals working around the clock for years on this game reached the same conclusion and adjusted their game accordingly.

Less customization is always a bad thing, except when it`s a good thing. Just wait until the game comes out.

@Green_Incarnate said:

Yes, some stuff was OP, but your character should be a little OP at max level. I don't think Bethesda gets that. Just look at Fallout 3. That super mutant overlord crap was insane. It took special items to take out that enemy's massive health, even in sneak mode with the crit buff. I get that they're trying to streamline this shit to make spell effects more unique, but unique spell effects doesn't mean they have to throw away custom spells. Just give us the option to choose the unique spell effect based on what we're putting into it. There's no way the stock spells are going to be as useful or interesting as something custom made.

I don't think anything should ever be "OP" because it's a way for you to legitimately cheese the gameplay. Also, I never had any problems with the overlords (especially when using sneak mode), and I'm not really sure what you mean by needing special items. I could take one out with a regular combat shotgun without too much trouble if I got the drop on him. Personally, I would be disappointed if there were no tougher enemies left at higher levels anymore, and I think most would agree.

"I used to have one spell dedicated for the alteration buffs (walk on water, breath under water, light 20 ft or so, detect life, feather self all for 120 sec. So much better than to cycle through them all)" seems to be the spirit of your entire argument, like there's something wrong with having to use discrete spells in the first place no matter how effectively they design each spell. But the whole point of having only discrete spells is to give depth in the form of different spells being effective for different things, and you choosing which spell to use for a given situation. It's a limitation used as a gameplay device.

Also, being able to take a discrete spell like the flamethrower, like you're suggesting as a means to have spellmaking in Skyrim, and apply whatever other spell effects to it that you wanted, would undermine both the entire design of each spell having unique functionality, and the element of choice in having to use the appropriate spell for the appropriate situation.

It's fine that you prefer to have spellmaking, but I don't understand where your fussy, pessimistic attitude is coming from. You're acting as though not having spellmaking means the end of everything to you for the same reasons it would be in Oblivion - everything will be so crappy that not being able to make your own super spells takes away your ability to fix it. But the whole thing we're explaining is that Skyrim is trying to fix Oblivion's crappy magic such that you shouldn't need spellmaking to save the game for you, yet you're just dismissing that without even evaluating the proposed merits. So it sounds more to me like you're just incredibly attached to making all-in-one spells and don't want to have to bother with discrete spells no matter how sensible and functional they are.

I guess I can understand if you're disappointed. Can't say it bothers me, though, because I never really got into custom spells in Oblivion.

Maybe ditching the modular magic system from Oblivion will make each spell more functionally useful.

All the haters are looking small-scale. Bethesda has created a new, more balanced system, which puts them one step closer to making the Elder Scrolls MMO that we all want.

Mods for this sort of thing will be available within ten minutes of Skyrim being unlocked on Steam.

@Ravenlight said:

Mods for this sort of thing will be available within ten minutes of Skyrim being unlocked on Steam.

I don't think they're putting out the Creation Kit at release.

Mods.

@JP_Russell: The thing is I don't really trust them to balance the game correctly (or the way I prefer it be balanced). They didn't with Oblivion, and neither with Fallout 3 IMO. I really hope they do, but I'm just going from past experience.

It's been a while since Fallout 3, so I can't remember much, but I killed overlords (or whatever the highest mutant class was with the dlc) by using the custom mine thing that took items and schematics to create. Never had too many of those. Thank god for the shotgun too, cause most of the other guns sucked comparatively. What if I didn't spec my character to be shotgun proficient? I'd be mostly fucked, cause all the other weapons/ammo in the game were too heavy to carry or too rare to be any use.

I meant they would allow the player to choose spell effects based only on what spells were put in, but that might be a little clunky/hard to implement. Doesn't matter though. The gameplay part of the spell is more fun than how it looks anyway. Yes, that's the way I prefer it.

@Example1013 said:

All the haters are looking small-scale. Bethesda has created a new, more balanced system, which puts them one step closer to making the Elder Scrolls MMO that we all want.

How do you know it's better and more balanced? Have you played the game? No, the fact is that this will invariably suck. So much fun was had in the late/post-end game of TES 3/4 just going all out and crafting crazy spells. Removing spell-crafting is unnecessary streamlining. They could have kept all the cool and unique spells and made a generic spell casting animation for custom spells as has been the case up to this point. This would appeal to a wider audience with the flashy stuff and appeal to veterans of the series with deeper customization and individuality on the back end, as has always been a hallmark of the franchise. In fact, most useful spell crafting always took place late in the game because you weren't powerful/rich enough to take advantage of it before then.

This reminds me of that quote from Todd Howard that he had a random encounter with 3 dragons while playtesting, but he thought it was too scary so he had it removed. Seriously? These are exactly the sorts of things veteran TES players want! I don't like making assumptions so I'm waiting for the final product but stuff like this makes me wonder if Beth couldn't use some fresh blood over there...

However, let's not forget that magic in Morrowind and Oblivion sucked hard. Melee or even ranged was always the way to go as magic was very underpowered. If this makes a pure mage a viable option, I'll deal.

They've replaced spellcrafting with random dragons.
 
That's more than enough for me.

LFG Riverwood 5 man dragon hunt N magehunter plz w.

Maybe ditching the modular magic system from Oblivion will make each spell more functionally useful.

Doesn't bother me. I only made a spell once in Oblivion and never did it again.

@Bwast said:

@Korwin said:

Protip: They took out spell creation to make their jobs easier, if your going to "streamline" something make sure it's really only something the old school core Elder Scrolls audience loved (they are after all a smaller percentage of the sales). It has nothing to do with creative choice.

Get your tinfoil hats on everyone, relatively minor game changes are all about money.

I was gonna respond to this asshole but I think you put it nicely.

So people won't be able to do stuff like this anymore?

:(

There's always combo spells, and if you really want to do custom spells, use the construction kit. That's what I did. Didn't need to faff about in the game for custom spells. Bah!

In Morrowind I used the construction kit and made a fireball spell that could kill everyone standing outside in Balmora. Good times.

The game will still be good but all this streamlining is taking out the retarded fun TES was about.

@SlashDance said:

I think Howard said he thought spell making took 'the magic out of magic'. I see his point and the new system may prove to be more organic.

I think that's a fair point. Howard's a smart dude, I think if they think the new system is the way forward I'm willing to play along.

As long as I can use enchantments to make myself invincible still.

@Green_Incarnate said:

@JP_Russell: The thing is I don't really trust them to balance the game correctly (or the way I prefer it be balanced). They didn't with Oblivion, and neither with Fallout 3 IMO. I really hope they do, but I'm just going from past experience.

It's been a while since Fallout 3, so I can't remember much, but I killed overlords (or whatever the highest mutant class was with the dlc) by using the custom mine thing that took items and schematics to create. Never had too many of those. Thank god for the shotgun too, cause most of the other guns sucked comparatively. What if I didn't spec my character to be shotgun proficient? I'd be mostly fucked, cause all the other weapons/ammo in the game were too heavy to carry or too rare to be any use.

I meant they would allow the player to choose spell effects based only on what spells were put in, but that might be a little clunky/hard to implement. Doesn't matter though. The gameplay part of the spell is more fun than how it looks anyway. Yes, that's the way I prefer it.

The gameplay part is the part I'm referring to, though. There is a functional difference between a flamethrower and a fireball that broadens the scope of how magic is used in the game. Oblivion is very limited because the only truly meaningful difference between spells is the effect (I.E., fire damage, frenzy, open, etc.). Aside from that, there is little to no variation in how you use them or why you would use them. This makes for an extremely dry magic system that needs spellmaking to kind of sort of compensate (even with a custom spell, you're mostly only expanding the amount of status effects and number changes going on to make for a more effective spell, and not changing how or why you would use it).

Now, don't get me wrong, it's entirely possible Bethesda won't do a great job with their implementation and magic could still end up being a bit dry in the long run (though I can already tell from footage and from what we do know about some of the functionality that it will be much better than Oblivion and Morrowind). But they have the right idea. Dark Messiah's magic system is a clear inspiration to Skyrim's magic (Arkane Studios having been recently acquired by Bethesda and various things in Skyrim having been ripped straight out of Dark Messiah), which is a good thing in my eyes. DM's magic isn't perfect, but it has some of the most tangible functionality and juxtapositional diversity among its spells I've seen in any game to date.

@emergency said:

My thoughts on this issue can be summarized as:

• I don't care.
• I trust Bethesda.

This.

Also custom spells sucked at Oblivion.

Don't you worry about it, I'm sure there will be mods to change it pretty soon.

I never got Oblivion spellmaking to work out for me. I never had enough magicka for the spells I could create, maybe because I didn't game my stats enough.

Removing custom spells just means I won't be standing around the Arcane University spamming "Detect Life for 1 second on self" or "1 point fire damage on self".

Honestly, I think this is a good change because the making custom spells in Oblivion really broke the late game.

On the other hand, figuring out how to break the game with custom spells was one of my favourite things to do in Obivion.

Closing all those oblivion gates would have been a pain in the ass without my invisibility spells, just run past everyone and grab the sigil stone, I also loved my uber-merchant spell: use up your entire mana bar for 1 second of 100% mercentile & speechcraft on self + charm the merchant... then talk to the merchant which pauzes the in-game clock... shopping spree!

Btw, been playing the game yesterday evening until 1 in the morning... just ran through the dungeon from the 20 minute demo : / liking it so far!

I played a ton of Morrowind and Oblivion, but I never messed around with spell making for some reason. I mostly just made way OP enchanted items.