Weapons Don't Degrade. (No More Repairing your Weapons)

#101 Edited by Franstone (1134 posts) -

I don't know how I feel about this... 
 
On one side it only makes sense as a that you would have to upkeep your weapons.
For thousands of years I'm sure all real life warriors wished their weapons would just repair themselves as they slept at night. 
But it's something even a modern day soldier has to deal with. 
In the game it may be a pain in the ass to deal with, but it's a realistic pain that makes it a bit more immersive, having real worries in the game.
 
Same thing with encumbrance, damn is that bullshit, drives me crazy sometimes.
But for a genre of games that thrives on those details, well, you just can't have bottomless pockets. 
I hate it but when I think about it, it's sort of a mini-game in itself, sacrificing what you can't carry. 
I'm a true believer that any game that has encumbrance needs to give you a spot to store the rest of your shit though. 
 
Would I miss either if it were gone? 
Maybe. 
Maybe not. 
I just don't fuckin know....
#102 Posted by Intro (1208 posts) -

@Storms said:

I'm going to have to play like 600 hours before I stop thinking "Hey, look at me, I have an inexplicably invincible sword. And when I switch to a staff, I have an invincible staff. I guess this is jsut a Dragonborn power". A lot of streamlining isn't the dumbing down some people make it out to be, but this legitimately is. Slowing down the rate of degradation, I could understand. Making weapons and armor magically indestructible? That just hurts the RP feel.

Yeah, I honestly hate to be the person saying, "it's dumbed down, cosolized shit, etc, etc."

Obviously, they're making a lot of great changes from Oblivion and Morrowing, but they keep removing RPG elements which isn't good for someone who enjoys RPGs (duh). Although, devs don't care because they now want to appeal to another audience, an audience that would never play a RPG that takes a lot of "effort." Another example is how they removed athletic and acrobatic skills. People say you level up in those skills by simple playing the game anyway. Sure, but it's nice to see my character becoming stronger from walking from town to town, rather than fast traveling.

All in all, I like having skills I have to rank up, dedicate time to and manage my equipment. It seems most of you don't agree with that last sentence, but I'm not going to say you're wrong or you're a casual gamer. Like I said before in this thread, everyone has their own opinion and I'm not going to argue it.

#103 Posted by Potter9156 (942 posts) -

Well, at least I can bake a cake and play house with my Argonian wife. 

#104 Posted by Intro (1208 posts) -

@Potter9156 said:

Well, at least I can bake a cake and play house with my Argonian wife.

The Lusty Argonian Maid.

#105 Posted by Matfei90 (1288 posts) -

Good.

#106 Posted by Afroman269 (7387 posts) -

Fuck yes.

#107 Posted by MordeaniisChaos (5730 posts) -

Cool. I hate that in games. I wouldn't mind if it was just a dmg modifier or something, but making them break as fast as they did was silly. Smithing sounds way better!

#108 Posted by SSully (4230 posts) -

Thank you Christ. I never saw any benefit to having it. I guess it takes away a small RPG element, but I think it is excusable.

#109 Posted by George_Hukas (1317 posts) -

This game gets more and more appealing as its revealed.

If this truly upsets you, play it on PC. I'm sure this will be one of the first mods released. Then you can manage your weapon quality, feelings, and bowels-hopefully in real time.

#110 Posted by Storms (341 posts) -
@Franstone: It sounds like you do know how you feel about it. It's impossible to not describe these RPG elements in negative terms. Yes, equipment degradation and encumbrance are "tedious", "inconvenient" and "annoying". 
 
It's these inconvenient obstacles that add a certain something to the feel of the game. I, for one, am going to feel a sense of loss every time I complete a tough battle, look in my inventory to lick my wounds and realise that the battle left my armor unscathed. 
 
 


Yeah, I honestly hate to be the person saying, "it's dumbed down, cosolized shit, etc, etc."

Same here. But you get to feel like the devs understand what you want in a certain game experience and then they go and do something that shows they don't.

 Another example is how they removed athletic and acrobatic skills. People say you level up in those skills by simple playing the game anyway. Sure, but it's nice to see my character becoming stronger from walking from town to town, rather than fast traveling.

Yeah, I'm still disappointed in that. When Todd Howard said "Who makes a character that doesn't run?" I said "me". I'm playing a High Elf in Oblivion right now that doesn't like to travel on foot. I like to imagine that "fast travel" is him hitching a ride. But athletics I can sort of agree with. What I'm concerned about is how we're going to handle jumping, now. TES isn't the same without having a way to help you get where you're not supposed to go. After they got rid of levitation, Acrobatics filled that role. Now I can't augment my thieving skills with my physical abilities? Very disappointing. 
 
@SSully
said:

Thank you Christ. I never saw any benefit to having it. I guess it takes away a small RPG element, but I think it is excusable.

A lot of things are excusable. With everything this game has going for it, they could change quite a bit.  I'm still keeping my pre-order, I'm still going to a midnight release for it, there's still no other game that comes close. But every move like this makes the game less great than it could have been. 
 
Remove, remove, remove. Let's add for once.
#111 Posted by BraveToaster (12589 posts) -

Now I don't have to carry a ton of weapons on me!

#112 Posted by captain_clayman (3325 posts) -

while this forum seems to have an omerwhelmingly positive reaction...i'm sure all the PC overclocking forums are going to rage about this.

#113 Posted by Sin4profit (2948 posts) -

I liked how Fallout 3 handles item repairs but i don't know that i'm going to miss it. I always made sure to spec my character to be decent at repairing items.

#114 Posted by Pibo47 (3166 posts) -
@DaemonBlack said:

It was more tedious than anything. Good riddance.

Yeah...it kinda was. On one hand im kinda pissed..but on the other...fuck. I fucking hated my best sword dying in the middle of a fight.
#115 Posted by Intro (1208 posts) -

@captain_clayman said:

while this forum seems to have an omerwhelmingly positive reaction...i'm sure all the PC overclocking forums are going to rage about this.

PC players will get mods for this within a month.

#116 Edited by yinstarrunner (1215 posts) -
@Intro: And it will be better implemented and more thought out than it would have been if Bethesda put it in themselves.  Everyone wins.
#117 Posted by SoldierG654342 (1782 posts) -

I don't mind weapon degradation, but it was poorly implemented in Oblivion. Having to either open the menu and repair my equipment or sacrifice a precious hotbar slot for convenience was not good.  But if my only two options are "take it or leave it," then I'll be fine leaving it. 

#118 Posted by Intro (1208 posts) -

@yinstarrunner: Except console players lol.

#119 Posted by avidwriter (667 posts) -

I think it's a good thing. I wish Minecraft would do that. -_-

#120 Edited by Twitchey (865 posts) -

Well this fucking sucks.  
Whenever I play games like TES and Fallout I usually have a high Armor/Repair skill so I can repair enemy's weapons and armor and sell it for a profit or repair my own stuff. Now I need another way to have an income.  
 
I guess with the hold jobs thing I could just work whenever I'm short on gold. 
 
@avidwriter: That would ruin a large portion of Minecraft imo. 
 
Hopefully they implement a form of "hardcore" mode like Fallout: NV so things like weapons and armor degrade over time. I wouldn't mind hunger/sleep/H20 bars as long as they are more serious than they were in Fallout: NV. You could go days without eating or drinking anything. Especially when you're in the Mojave desert. 

#121 Posted by xyzygy (10026 posts) -

The Repair skill was just annoying. Bring on everlasting weapons.

#122 Posted by DaemonBlack (342 posts) -

@Intro said:

@Storms said:

I'm going to have to play like 600 hours before I stop thinking "Hey, look at me, I have an inexplicably invincible sword. And when I switch to a staff, I have an invincible staff. I guess this is jsut a Dragonborn power". A lot of streamlining isn't the dumbing down some people make it out to be, but this legitimately is. Slowing down the rate of degradation, I could understand. Making weapons and armor magically indestructible? That just hurts the RP feel.

Yeah, I honestly hate to be the person saying, "it's dumbed down, cosolized shit, etc, etc."

Obviously, they're making a lot of great changes from Oblivion and Morrowing, but they keep removing RPG elements which isn't good for someone who enjoys RPGs (duh). Although, devs don't care because they now want to appeal to another audience, an audience that would never play a RPG that takes a lot of "effort." Another example is how they removed athletic and acrobatic skills. People say you level up in those skills by simple playing the game anyway. Sure, but it's nice to see my character becoming stronger from walking from town to town, rather than fast traveling.

All in all, I like having skills I have to rank up, dedicate time to and manage my equipment. It seems most of you don't agree with that last sentence, but I'm not going to say you're wrong or you're a casual gamer. Like I said before in this thread, everyone has their own opinion and I'm not going to argue it.

Like you, I love to get into my RPGs. Immersion is huge for me. However, the leveling up of certain skills ( such as athletics and acrobatic) in oblivion actually broke the immersion for me. Constantly jumping around to get my acrobatics skill up so I can get extra points in agility when level up just reminded me I'm playing a game. The repairing items didn't break immersion for me, but I didn't really get anything out of it personally. It was just a game mechanic I didn't really think about it. So I wont really miss it. But if you got something out of it, then I can see why you would want it back. If you play on PC I would be very surprised if there wasn't an item repairing mod shortly after the games release so if nothing else you can customize your experience that way.

I don't buy your argument that the developers are changing things solely to appeal to a different audience though. Newcomers to the game wont be scared away by athletics skills or item maintenance. I really do believe that, at least in the case of the examples I mentioned, that the developers are simply looking at what parts of the games weren't the strongest and either changing them or removing them. Whether or not it will result in a better experience will remain to be seen but so far I can say I'm happy with most of the choices Bethesda has made.

#123 Posted by Brendan (7832 posts) -

Carrying around a dozen repair hammers was annoying, so I'm all for it.

#124 Posted by niamahai (1405 posts) -

Hooray! I can marry dudes and I don't have to sharpen my blunt equipment anymore!  
Truly Skyrim is a gift from the Bethesda gods! 
 
Now let's talk about inventory encumbrance...

#125 Posted by Intro (1208 posts) -

@DaemonBlack said:

@Intro said:

@Storms said:

I'm going to have to play like 600 hours before I stop thinking "Hey, look at me, I have an inexplicably invincible sword. And when I switch to a staff, I have an invincible staff. I guess this is jsut a Dragonborn power". A lot of streamlining isn't the dumbing down some people make it out to be, but this legitimately is. Slowing down the rate of degradation, I could understand. Making weapons and armor magically indestructible? That just hurts the RP feel.

Yeah, I honestly hate to be the person saying, "it's dumbed down, cosolized shit, etc, etc."

Obviously, they're making a lot of great changes from Oblivion and Morrowing, but they keep removing RPG elements which isn't good for someone who enjoys RPGs (duh). Although, devs don't care because they now want to appeal to another audience, an audience that would never play a RPG that takes a lot of "effort." Another example is how they removed athletic and acrobatic skills. People say you level up in those skills by simple playing the game anyway. Sure, but it's nice to see my character becoming stronger from walking from town to town, rather than fast traveling.

All in all, I like having skills I have to rank up, dedicate time to and manage my equipment. It seems most of you don't agree with that last sentence, but I'm not going to say you're wrong or you're a casual gamer. Like I said before in this thread, everyone has their own opinion and I'm not going to argue it.

Like you, I love to get into my RPGs. Immersion is huge for me. However, the leveling up of certain skills ( such as athletics and acrobatic) in oblivion actually broke the immersion for me. Constantly jumping around to get my acrobatics skill up so I can get extra points in agility when level up just reminded me I'm playing a game. The repairing items didn't break immersion for me, but I didn't really get anything out of it personally. It was just a game mechanic I didn't really think about it. So I wont really miss it. But if you got something out of it, then I can see why you would want it back. If you play on PC I would be very surprised if there wasn't an item repairing mod shortly after the games release so if nothing else you can customize your experience that way.

I don't buy your argument that the developers are changing things solely to appeal to a different audience though. Newcomers to the game wont be scared away by athletics skills or item maintenance. I really do believe that, at least in the case of the examples I mentioned, that the developers are simply looking at what parts of the games weren't the strongest and either changing them or removing them. Whether or not it will result in a better experience will remain to be seen but so far I can say I'm happy with most of the choices Bethesda has made.

Understandable, great post.

#126 Posted by Storms (341 posts) -
@niamahai said:
Hooray! I can marry dudes and I don't have to sharpen my blunt equipment anymore!  Truly Skyrim is a gift from the Bethesda gods!  Now let's talk about inventory encumbrance...
Let's not. Really.
#127 Edited by kingzetta (4307 posts) -
#128 Posted by rmanthorp (3998 posts) -

Great! Now I just need to hear that news for DR2:OTR

Moderator
#129 Posted by RIDEBIRD (1233 posts) -

I am a die hard Morrowind fan (600 hours, biatch) and I fucking love this.

#130 Posted by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -

All of the fundamental aspects of RPGs are dying in an effort to streamline the games which host them so that the audience won't be scared away. Awesome.

#131 Posted by nrain (1274 posts) -

Don't really understand how removing weapon degradation makes it less of an RPG, just makes it less realistic and less boring. I welcome this, it means I don't have to put points into something boring like having my stuff work, and instead can put them into things that allow you to do cooler things like have better spells or moves.

#132 Posted by redbliss (648 posts) -

 I really dont mind them taking the tedious stuff out of Skyrim. While I didnt have a problem with the armorer ability in Oblivion, it can get really annoying repairing weapons and armor after  every battle so the damage does not decrease. 
 
As for the acrobatics and athletics abilities, I am glad they are taking those out as well. It sucked that I couldnt control the leveling of those abilities. If you want to level efficiently in Oblivion and you are not looking to level up speed, you had to fast travel everywhere, which is not something I wanted to do. And when you wanted to level up your speed you usually had to speed a lot of time at the end of your level just running and swimming around (assuming you didnt spend money on leveling abilities). 
 
All Bethesda is doing is removing the boring, tedious elements from the Elder Scrolls games. It looks like there are going to be plenty of RPG elements.

#133 Edited by Storms (341 posts) -
@Twitchey: Good idea. Hardcore mode sounds like the perfect solution. Better than "buy a gaming PC". 
 
@redbliss said: 
All Bethesda is doing is removing the boring, tedious elements from the Elder Scrolls games. It looks like there are going to be plenty of RPG elements.
You remove all of the boring, tedious stuff from an RPG and all you have is a shooter with swords. And then they'd remove the swords because having to close the distance between yourself and your opponent is a boring aspect. Name an RPG aspect and I'll tell you why people find it boring. Dialogue, for instance, is completely skipped by many people -- reading is tedious. 
 
I don't really care very much at all about Armorer being removed. It reduces my anticipation for the game by about 0.02 percent, while Smithing raises my anticipation by about 19.00% and Mining raises it by about the same. But the principle is the thing; the slight shift away from the tedious things that made the game feel more realistic and immersive. 
 
inb4 "it wasn't immersive, just BORING and ANNOYING". Have you lived in reality lately? Tell me the difference between the two. In order to give a game a feel of realism, it has to have just a touch of inconvenience; because that's life.  
 
Inconvenience and tedium are necessary aspects of an RPG. Just like humans couldn't believe in a perfect world in the Matrix; many of us can't get immersed in a game world without a few inexpedient hindrances.
#134 Posted by ahoodedfigure (4240 posts) -

I enjoy managing equipment, breaking items, all that, but I guess it depends on how it's implemented. Sometimes it's just damned annoying.  I guess it's more interesting as a mechanism than as what it actually winds up being, which is just another stat to heal up when you go back to town.
 
Ironically, probably the best weapon degradation system I ever saw was Elder Scrolls Arena's, and you had to do MORE work with that. I think if you're going to have something like this, you have to go all the way and make it part of the experience. More sim. If you just have a stat to monitor, like in Diablo, it can be OK if that's part of the worry about the weapon (like with etherial items or whatever they were called).
 
I'm trying to think of it actually enhancing the experience, though...  I like it if it's slow enough that it it's more a long term excuse to upgrade your gear or get new stuff. At times it feels like things degrade so quickly that it comes across as busywork in world where you don't need to worry about shelter, sleep, food, water, realistic diseases, or any other of the more simulation problems. Maybe they should have tried a hard core mode like in NV?

#135 Posted by razorzxz (180 posts) -

I agree with what you said, but I would sure like to hear the other side of it.

#136 Posted by Intro (1208 posts) -

@razorzxz said:

I agree with what you said, but I would sure like to hear the other side of it.

If you're talking about my OP, then you can hear the other side by reading every other post in this thread lol.

#137 Posted by TheHBK (5505 posts) -

Awesome.  Don't complain.  Don't confuse shit that was tedious with an RPG element.  I can see how degradation would be a interesting element.  But considering that no one elses weapons were degraded, much anyway, it was dumb.  Repairing them was just a matter of going to a shop, saying, repair these, and thats it.  Might as well put eating as a necessary thing to do.  At least then you could add the RPG element of having to take a shit.  Maybe off topic there, but just saying, some stuff doesn't add to the gameplay.

#138 Posted by JamesKond (232 posts) -

So, now we know what the second mod for Skyrim on the PC will be (first one is of course the naked mod)

#139 Posted by Storms (341 posts) -
@ahoodedfigure said:
I enjoy managing equipment, breaking items, all that, but I guess it depends on how it's implemented. Sometimes it's just damned annoying.  I guess it's more interesting as a mechanism than as what it actually winds up being, which is just another stat to heal up when you go back to town.  Ironically, probably the best weapon degradation system I ever saw was Elder Scrolls Arena's, and you had to do MORE work with that. I think if you're going to have something like this, you have to go all the way and make it part of the experience. More sim. If you just have a stat to monitor, like in Diablo, it can be OK if that's part of the worry about the weapon (like with etherial items or whatever they were called).   I'm trying to think of it actually enhancing the experience, though...  I like it if it's slow enough that it it's more a long term excuse to upgrade your gear or get new stuff. At times it feels like things degrade so quickly that it comes across as busywork in world where you don't need to worry about shelter, sleep, food, water, realistic diseases, or any other of the more simulation problems. Maybe they should have tried a hard core mode like in NV?
Pretty much agree.
#140 Posted by SomeJerk (3296 posts) -

TL;DR Human Revolution confirmed singleplayer GOTY 2011

#141 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -

You can improve your stuff? Thats pretty cool. 

#142 Edited by GuyIncognito (445 posts) -

They should also remove that annoying aspect of games when you get damaged if enemy hits you.

#143 Posted by Tally_Pants (594 posts) -
@President_Barackbar said:

Awesome, I HATED that shit in Oblivion.

This is how I felt.
And that aerobics stuff... Walking around jumping like an idiot was not what I classified as fun! I love RPGs, but I'm just not that hardcore
#144 Posted by dagas (2863 posts) -

I hate weapon decay in games even more than inventory management. I'm happy if they take that out. In fallout 3 I had to run around with 3-4 Chinese Assault Rifles so that I could always use one to repair my weapon.

#145 Posted by McGhee (6094 posts) -

Repairing weapons sucks. It has always sucked. Get over it.

#146 Posted by GuyIncognito (445 posts) -
@dagas said:

I hate weapon decay in games even more than inventory management. I'm happy if they take that out. In fallout 3 I had to run around with 3-4 Chinese Assault Rifles so that I could always use one to repair my weapon.

I went 100% energy weapons which is WINRAR in the latter part of the game.  Everything drops energy weapons towards the end.
#147 Posted by Green_Incarnate (1789 posts) -

It sucks that they're removing stuff, but repair wasn't all that interesting of a feature in the first place. I'd still prefer it if they were able to add something more to it rather than flat out remove it from the game.

#148 Posted by Aishan (1020 posts) -
@Green_Incarnate said:

It sucks that they're removing stuff, but repair wasn't all that interesting of a feature in the first place. I'd still prefer it if they were able to add something more to it rather than flat out remove it from the game.

You mean like a full smithing system for upgrading your armour and making new pieces? That would be awesome.
#149 Posted by Storms (341 posts) -
@Green_Incarnate said:

I'd still prefer it if they were able to add something more to it rather than flat out remove it from the game.

Absolutely. It's not like the repair skill stopped Oblivion from being a best-seller and Game of the Year. So why not just tweak it? 
 
And it's really depressing hearing all these people wanting to take encumbrance out... That would be a huge turning point.
#150 Edited by Maluvin (266 posts) -
@ahoodedfigure said:

I enjoy managing equipment, breaking items, all that, but I guess it depends on how it's implemented. Sometimes it's just damned annoying.  I guess it's more interesting as a mechanism than as what it actually winds up being, which is just another stat to heal up when you go back to town.  Ironically, probably the best weapon degradation system I ever saw was Elder Scrolls Arena's, and you had to do MORE work with that. I think if you're going to have something like this, you have to go all the way and make it part of the experience. More sim. If you just have a stat to monitor, like in Diablo, it can be OK if that's part of the worry about the weapon (like with etherial items or whatever they were called).   I'm trying to think of it actually enhancing the experience, though...  I like it if it's slow enough that it it's more a long term excuse to upgrade your gear or get new stuff. At times it feels like things degrade so quickly that it comes across as busywork in world where you don't need to worry about shelter, sleep, food, water, realistic diseases, or any other of the more simulation problems. Maybe they should have tried a hard core mode like in NV?

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read about this subject.  I'd totally be up for a selectable hardcore mode.

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