Weapons Don't Degrade. (No More Repairing your Weapons)

#151 Posted by Hobbies (976 posts) -

Terrible, terrible decision. I don't care how bad it has been in past games, the removal of the repair system in its entirety is stupid. All they had to do was slow the degradation down and vary the rates depending on which piece of equipment it was and its material.

#152 Posted by yakov456 (1897 posts) -

That is what you call a good change. I can hear that clanging in my sleep.

#153 Edited by madhattervx (58 posts) -

I'm not crazy about this idea. I've been playing since Morrowind, but not only that, I am a long-time RPG enthusiast.  
Armor degrading is kind of part of the deal when it comes to Elder Scrolls games. It's part of the feel of the game.

 
@Tru3_Blu3

said:

I found weapon degrade to be a satisfying feature. Going into an Oblivion gate with armor at 39% with high-level monsters around the corner was very intense and made you feel like an injured, relentless bad-ass. The fact that we're going to fight fucking dragons unscathed is going to be stupid. You save a damned city from a dragon, resulting in an injured hero in need a downtime. You heal yourself and repair your armor with your well earned money, ready for the next battle ahead.  

I completely agree with you on it being part of the feel. 
 
@Tru3_Blu3
said:

I think they should add a new stat to weapons called "piercing" where swords and axes have high piercing power and can injure unarmored enemies and can penetrate the surface of armored ones, but at the cost of it being dull during use and its piercing power degrading. Maces, however, have low piercing but break shields, smack weapons out of hands, and knock enemies backwards. Thing is, it will have low damage against heavily armored foes with the positive being that you don't have to worry about repair.

I've got to say that I love this idea. If the armor repair feature is truly being removed, then this sort of thing is absolutely necessary. Any good RPG that doesn't have equipment degrade has armor piercing/elemental factors. Maybe dragon fangs and claws could shred right into you unless you wore the best of armor. Perhaps the fact you are wearing a suit of metal (if you are) could be taken into account when the dragon is spewing fire at you. It would be a bad day to wear metal, a good day to dress lighter and try to out-maneuver the beast. You know what I mean? Metal gets hot. On a different note: I love the idea of smithing and crafting, and everything else I'v heard about. This is going to be a truly great game!
#154 Posted by Storms (341 posts) -
@GuyIncognito: Don't give them ideas.
#155 Posted by Brians (1455 posts) -

I hate degrading weapons in general.

#156 Posted by Storms (341 posts) -
@Briguile said:

I hate degrading weapons in general.

Weapons' Rights Activist, lol.
#157 Posted by Grilledcheez (3942 posts) -

I'm not sure how I feel about this!

#158 Posted by Rowr (5474 posts) -

While they are at it, they should make it that you cant die and have unlimited magic. Because thats more fun right? right?

#159 Posted by Hashbrowns (649 posts) -

@Rowr said:

While they are at it, they should make it that you cant die and have unlimited magic. Because thats more fun right? right?

Are you really saying that removing weapon degradation is equivalent to removing challenge from the game? Is selecting a hammer and clicking on one of your weapons a challenging or "deep" activity?

If weapon degradation and repair is vital to "role-playing" then they should force the player to clip the character's finger nails, wipe their butt, and wash their hands before meals. All very compelling activities that enrich the "role playing" experience and make it "deep".

I can't wrap my head around most arguments made by self-styled "real" RPG fans. They want dice rolls to play their games for them, and want to spend more time clicking icons on task bars for hours all so they can watch numbers get larger. Heck, the National Debt Clock must be RPG nirvana for these people.

#160 Posted by Red (5994 posts) -

Makes me happy.

#161 Posted by Otogi (247 posts) -

I'm with the crowd that says this a good thing. Degrading weapons never added to the immersion of the games to me. Being able to explore worlds exploding with things to do did that. Talking to every NPC and hearing the stories of how they came to this point did that. Being embedded in to the intrigue of the various factions did that. Going through detailed ancient ruins, taking part of scripted ceremonies, performing quests for gods to make people naked did that. But carrying 7 hammers so I can go to my inventory, click on a weapon or piece armor in the 30's so I can get it in the 70's, having the hammer break and then hold off because I don't have a high enough skill? That did anything but. That didn't make me feel as though I was some badass holding off hideous demons with a nearly broken sword. It didn't even feel like I was some amateur craftsman just trying to survive. It took me out of the world so I can change a percentage. Fallout 3 was a little better (and Fallout: New Vegas even more so), but it still didn't feel fulfilling. 
 
Not to say that crafting in of itself is a complete wash. However, after going through the way it handled in recent Bathesda games (Morrowind included), I'm pretty safe with having it taken out for something else, if only until they can come up with something more engaging.

#162 Posted by Storms (341 posts) -
@Hashbrowns:  
 
Not, n-n-n-numbers! They're sk-sk-sk-skerri! 
 
You tell 'em, Hashbrowns. There's no way we can have something like armor damage in games without also having butt-wiping, or whatever you're trying to say that makes sense to you and your friends who think weapons and armor are invincible. We'll make sure NO RPG has sim elements at all, because for some reason that seems like a good thing to do. We don't like numbers and crap so nobody can have them!
#163 Posted by Intro (1205 posts) -

@Hashbrowns said:

I can't wrap my head around most arguments made by self-styled "real" RPG fans. They want dice rolls to play their games for them, and want to spend more time clicking icons on task bars for hours all so they can watch numbers get larger. Heck, the National Debt Clock must be RPG nirvana for these people.

Or what I said, they want to manage their equipment...

#164 Posted by Hashbrowns (649 posts) -

@Intro: Managing equipment should be just that; deciding what weapons or armor you prefer. I simply don't see the fun in clicking on the repair hammer again and again. There's no challenge or tactical engagement, it's just busy work. The repair system in Oblivion certainly didn't ruin the game, but what does it add other than occasional frustration when you've run out of hammers? Unless a mechanic directly adds to your enjoyment, why is it in the game? When pausing, selecting a repair hammer, are you thinking "man, this activity is enhancing my entertainment!"? It's the same criticism I would level at Mass Effect 2's planet scanning. I end up asking "Who thought this was a good idea?"

@Storms said:

@Hashbrowns:

Not, n-n-n-numbers! They're sk-sk-sk-skerri!

You tell 'em, Hashbrowns. There's no way we can have something like armor damage in games without also having butt-wiping, or whatever you're trying to say that makes sense to you and your friends who think weapons and armor are invincible. We'll make sure NO RPG has sim elements at all, because for some reason that seems like a good thing to do. We don't like numbers and crap so nobody can have them!

What I don't like are pointless and banal mechanics that only exist as artifacts from board games. I could do without the common "stats/percentages equal depth and intelligence" posturing and "you hate numbers" piffle too. It doesn't take a great mind to repair armor or weapons in RPGs. It just takes time, and it's time spent doing something tedious when you could otherwise be exploring the world, interacting with characters and fighting monsters, and yes, even deciding what to wear.

The argument that armor damage as presented in RPGs is some sort of immersive simulation is shaky at best; about as solid as claiming floating health packs are less contrived than regenerating health. Armor isn't invincible, you're right, but whacking your armor with a hammer probably won't repair it, no matter what the hammer is called. A properly contextualized armor damage system would have the armor literally falling apart, not just deflecting a progressively lesser percentage of damage, as a dented sheet of steel will protect just as well as a shiny new one. The proper simulation would also require raw materials and appropriate equipment that would likely mean a trip to a town's blacksmith. But that's not what people are asking for. I'm hearing demands for a system that isn't really deep enough to make the game more immersive, to make you feel like you're really in that situation; rather a simulation of a board game. It isn't fun, challenging or engaging, only a shallow consumption of time.

It seems as if RPG fans have lost sight of what role-playing was meant to do. Pen-and-paper RPGs were a structured way to pretend you were a mythic self-made hero. Video game RPGs, rather than reaching for that same goal, they so often instead try to recreate the board game. They simulate the simulation, instead of the original goal of total visceral immersion.

Since Morrowind, Bethesda seems to be tackling the RPG's legacy of minimal visceral feedback and abstracted player involvement, and yet they're under attack for involving the player further in gameplay and for removing systems that did nothing other than consume time. It's like hearing people complain about the starter motor because they consider the hand crank to be integral to their car-driving experience.

I've probably been unnecessarily aggressive about this, and for that I'm sorry. I doubt I'll change anyone's mind, but it was good to get my thoughts out.

#165 Posted by EmuLeader (557 posts) -

@krazy_kyle said:

Finally! It would have been better if you were required to sharpen your blades every now and again instead of the weapon actually breaking every 10 mins but still, no repairs makes me happy :D

This is my real qualm with fixing weapons. Keeping a weapon sharp is important and would be good to keep, but having it completely break is a little ridiculous for edged weapons (I could see a club breaking after a while).

#166 Posted by Synthballs (2193 posts) -

Brilliant!

#167 Posted by ShiftyMagician (2129 posts) -

They could have still kept it in but make it that your equipment never breaks.  Instead they get reasonably weaker to a point and require maintenance to get better but not cause too much grief.  They should have also slowed down the degradation significantly because equipment overall degraded too fast that it became a pain.  Other than that, the alternative they are going for sounds good but I want to see what the crafting is really all about.

#168 Posted by DragonBloodthirsty (469 posts) -
@Intro said:

I personally think this is a joke. Why?

Obviously, they're making a lot of great changes from Oblivion and Morrowing, but they keep removing RPG elements which isn't good for someone who enjoys RPGs (duh). Although, devs don't care because they now want to appeal to another audience, an audience that would never play a RPG that takes a lot of "effort." Another example is how they removed athletic and acrobatic skills. People say you level up in those skills by simple playing the game anyway. Sure, but it's nice to see my character becoming stronger from walking from town to town, rather than fast traveling.

All in all, I like having skills I have to rank up, dedicate time to and manage my equipment. It seems most of you don't agree with that last sentence, but I'm not going to say you're wrong or you're a casual gamer. Like I said before in this thread, everyone has their own opinion and I'm not going to argue it.

http://twitter.com/#%21/DCDeacon/status/107292291122728960

Thoughts?

I don't really enjoy the "maintenance" aspect of RPGs.  I find repairing equipment to be really annoying and tedious, and it serves very little role within the game.  Most games use it as a money sink, with no beneficial effect on the gameplay.  "Managing Equipment" seems to mean something different to us, because I thought of it as having proper equipment, not returning to town every so often to patch things up.

Having skills to rank up is fun, but is "walking" really a skill, and is it actually fun to invest your time and energy into learning how to walk at a reasonable pace?  I looked at the numbers for "Athletics", and they required you to walk a really ridiculously long time.  I'd rather be able to move throughout the world reasonably from the beginning of the game.  For realism, yes, walking is totally a skill, as is running (they'd be separate skills if you asked me), but they generally aren't interesting or fun skills.

There are some parts of Oblivion that I really do find so tedious I have trouble playing that game, and I'm happy to see some of the tedium go.

#169 Posted by JakeTaylor (309 posts) -

Best news all year. Fuck those repair hammers and their 1 weight.

#170 Posted by haggis (1677 posts) -

Another one here that's fine with it. I always found it tedious.

#171 Edited by SaturdayNightSpecials (2305 posts) -

...Oh hell, I don't know.

On the one hand I'm not a fan of degradation/repair. I don't care if it's there or not, so this change alone doesn't bother me. On the other hand it kills me to see this general stripping-down of mechanics. Even though it's good to streamline in some places, I can't help but feel that their goal is simplification at any cost. As if everything that gets in the way of combat and storytelling needs to be pushed aside, because that's "the good part".

Even things that aren't fun on their own can collectively make the challenges presented to the player more interesting.

#172 Posted by AndrewB (7453 posts) -

This is great news. Weapon degradation is one of the aspects of the RPG system used in TES games that I hate. It's either put a bunch of points into an ultimately useless stat, or waste a ton of gold keeping your weapons up to snuff. I agree with the sentiment that they should stop removing some of the things that make the game what it is in the first place, but so far a lot of the changes are stuff I can totally live with, because they've mostly been annoying aspects tweaked out.  
 
Even with Morrowind to Oblivion, it's a little painful to go back and try to play Morrowind (at least for me) with the little tweaks and balances.

Online
#173 Posted by CheapPoison (716 posts) -

Love the change! 
good riddance!

#174 Edited by PenguinDust (12442 posts) -

I think removing Athletics was a smart idea although I'm not sure about Acrobatics.  It always felt cheap to me to level just by wandering around which is a huge element of the game anyway.  I know that in Oblivion there were more than a few skills that leveled you quickly even if you did little to advance in the game.   Once I figured that out, several of my characters all wound up with Athletics, Blade, Light Armor, Illusion, Restoration, Security and Speechcraft (sometimes Sneak).   Retooling the skills is a good idea in my mind.
 
I will miss looking through every barrel and crate in town to search for repair hammers.  I hope they get rid of all the useless junk around town that has no monetary value while they're at it.  It's sort of nice for that "lived in" feel, but I'd really rather a sign popped up that said "nothing of value was found".  Early on when I played The Elder Scrolls games, I carried around a full setting of plates, forks, bowls, etc... because I thought that's what my character would need to eat.  But, there was no need to eat (until a mod was created much later) and with the crippling encumbrance penalty, I tossed them away thereafter.   That's another thing they really need to fix.  Encumbered, you should still be able to move.  Maybe very slowly, but move somewhat at least.  
 
With no weapon or armor repair, I guess I won't need those hammers any more.  yeah, I'll miss the anticipation of that clinking sound, wondering if this is the time the hammer will break.  Come to think of it, that doesn't make any sense anyway.  Why would a hammer break from repairing a sword or helmet?

#175 Edited by spazmaster666 (1965 posts) -

Well the first mods that come out are usually ones that stop weapons and equipment from degrading so it's good that Bethesda is finally just including it in the vanilla version of the game. Though I would rather that they get rid of encumbrance than weapon degradation since encumbrance is by far the most annoying aspect of the game for someone who likes to keep every single item they find.

#176 Edited by Storms (341 posts) -

    @Hashbrowns
  

The argument that armor damage as presented in RPGs is some sort of immersive simulation is shaky at best; about as solid as claiming floating health packs are less contrived than regenerating health. Armor isn't invincible, you're right, but whacking your armor with a hammer probably won't repair it, no matter what the hammer is called 


 The "all or nothing" argument is what's shaky. No, not even shaky, just completely worthless. Equipment damage and repair doesn't have to be accurate down to the last detail, it just needs to make you think to yourself  "my equipment is damaged and needs to be repaired". You could get rid of everything in every single video game by the logic that it tries to simulate a "real" concept but it's not just like it would be in real life -- because that's pretty much the definition of "video game".  
 

 They simulate the simulation, instead of the original goal of total visceral immersion. 


I hope that one day you realise that in order to have decent immersion, you can't only simulate all the "exciting" parts. You need a certain dose of realism, and for that you need some inconveniences, like having to deal with minutiae like the entropy of your equipment and not being able to carry every item in the game at once.  
 
Some people use RPGs and video games in general as an "escape from reality". Ironically, in order to escape the BS in real life, the more cerebral among us require a lesser amount of BS to make the illusion more complete.  
 
In conclusion: No, weapon repair isn't "fun" or "exciting" in the least. Yes, it's "tedious" and "boring". And that's why it was so great to have it in this game. I liked that the devs had enough balls to not make everything super-entertaining for the sake of immersion. Guess I'm the minority and that means I shouldn't get to have a video game with the qualities I like, once the masses take over the direction of the series. Hopefully, Bethesda doesn't completely cave to this mentality.
#177 Posted by Hashbrowns (649 posts) -

@Storms: Neither of us is going to change the other's mind, and that's perfectly fine. I'll just summarize my position to be this: If it isn't fun, don't put it in a video game, no matter what genre it is.

I'm thrilled with practically every change Bethesda is making to their game design in Skyrim. Of course, your opinions are your own, but I really hope you enjoy Skyrim in spite of these changes. Thanks for the lively discussion! (though that "the more cerebral among us" line was pretty cheeky!)

#178 Edited by madhattervx (58 posts) -

Wait a second...I think I might be okay with the armor deal...I'm sort of indifferent to be honest. But when did this athletics thing happen? Now that irks me a little. 
Are you telling me that all of my characters will be the same speed, or will that be regulated differently? Having characters that all ran the same pace would really suck for me. It would be even worse if acrobatics were gone too...are they? I certainly hope not. 

#179 Posted by PrivateIronTFU (3874 posts) -

Weapon repairing is the worst. So I'm quite thankful for this.  
 
It was such a pain in the ass to have to carry around five of the same weapon in Fallout 3 because I needed to repair it constantly.

#180 Edited by sreya92 (193 posts) -
@dungbootle said:

Sweet, now how 'bout that encumbrance?

Actually that needs to stay if for the sake of not having a hero who can lug around 4 tons of useless weapons and armor you're never going to use. It's fine the way it is, find a house and put it in a closet and just come back when you want it.
#181 Edited by Stealthmaster86 (624 posts) -

Good. I can now focus my Attributes  on more important stuff like Endurance, Strength, Will, and Luck.

#182 Posted by Storms (341 posts) -
#183 Posted by MetalMoog (907 posts) -
@drag said:
Good.   I mean uh ... *ahem* stupid dumbed down piece of console shit. 
hahahaha. Good call.
#184 Posted by Doctorchimp (4067 posts) -

Good!!!
 
@Intro
You left the part out where they are also going to let you craft and customize weapons for a blacksmith character. I'm not just talking about enchantments.
 
Who the fuck plays Elder Scrolls to click on their hammer and then click on their weapon? It was arbitrary and just made sure I wasted a slot as oppose to learning a skill I wanted to keep my weapons at 100.
 
This is the biggest problem with people sometimes, they take the arbitrary and contrived mechanics and place more importance on them than they should.

#185 Posted by shhetghost (59 posts) -

not being able to repair my magic equipment was one of the things that made annoying for me, that and the bloodgrass 
#186 Posted by Stealthmaster86 (624 posts) -
@Storms said:
@Stealthmaster86: Repairing was a skill, not an attribute -- it raised Endurance. And Endurance is now gone, along with Willpower, Luck, Agility, Speed, Personality, Strength and Intelligence. There are only 3 attributes now -- Health, Magicka and Stamina.
That KIND of sucks, but I'm not going to judge until I get my hands on the game. I do like how Skills have their own set of perks.
#187 Posted by Djangosix (44 posts) -

repairing equipment was such a pain, it did nothing for the game in general and just served as an annoyance having to keep repairing your stuff  so that it would do anykind of worthwhile damage. so glad its gone. 
 
also acrobatics and athletics were just as bad, i think they want to make the game so its more immersive rather than, you know...jumping every two steps to increase a silly skill.
#188 Posted by Storms (341 posts) -
@Djangosix: Eh. I managed to get acrobatics mastered without doing that. It's your choice whether you want to grind. 
 
That said, TES will be weird without the ability to jump from rooftop to rooftop like a master ninja.
#189 Posted by Djangosix (44 posts) -
@Storms
i never said you had to do that, but it was the most effective way to level that skill up which is not how they intended it im sure.  i think now they are trying to implement a system that rewards the playstyle rather having to grind certain skills while others get increased naturally. 
 
i have to agree though being able to jump as high as a house is awesome i will miss that.
#190 Posted by Whitestripes09 (397 posts) -

THERE IS A GOD. Seriously though, repairing equipment was annoying, I could see that if very slowly your weapons began to rust and break that would make it more immersible, but it seems like once you finish a couple quests or fight a group of people the stats on your armor and weapons drop slightly -_-

#191 Posted by Mayu_Zane (606 posts) -

Bye bye horrible mechanic that tried to make the game 'realistic' but only made it an annoyance more than anything else.

#192 Edited by Do_The_Manta_Ray (564 posts) -

Well, if you read the post closely, as well have spent a decent amount of time following Skyrim (which I'll simply assume you have, dear TC), you'd see that they're simply shifting the focus on the armorer-skill. Rather than upgrade it in order to simply keep your gear in pristine form, aka, be forced to spend time with it. You'll now have the choice whether to forfeit another useful skill in favour of being able to produce completely new pieces of weapon and armour.

After all, Skyrim is to have a plethora of raw materials which you, then, will be able to make into new, personalized and unique weaponry/protection. For example, now I never will be forced to repair my "Rusty Clothes-Hanger of Venereal Disease", think about it; it'd totally ruin the illusion, duders!

Now, I've been a fan of TES since Arena, and while I'll greatly miss acrobatics and athletics, I'm hoping that it'll allow other skills to take precedence. After all, one of the breaking points of the levelling system in all the TES games, so far, has been that if you choose athletics and/or acrobatics as your major skills, you'd level from doing nothing but running and jumping. I remember my time with Morrowind and my main character. Out of the 120 hours I poured into that guy, 110 of them were spent jumping! Now you'll have to improve your swords-skills, or possibly pick up a new style of magic as a major focus: and as such, be enabled to explore more of the game's core-mechanics like speech-craft or stealth and thus be rewarded for it with xp that normally would have been alloted for running and jumping.

I wouldn't be too worried if I were you. In my opinion, the more balanced leveling-factor, combined with the new crafting system a là Minecraft gives a far more RPG' -like aesthetic than becoming better at jumping and not breaking your fucking hammer for the 200th damn time! This time, I'll roll a barbarian/lumber-jack without a hammer in sight and feel good about it.

#193 Posted by Alex_Murphy (1184 posts) -

Meh. Repairing stuff was never a big deal for me. I just repaired every piece of armor I found, then tossed it on the ground. Once you max out that skill, hammers never brake so you only need one.

#194 Posted by cstrang (2381 posts) -

@DaemonBlack said:

It was more tedious than anything. Good riddance.

@SomeDeliCook said:

Awesome, a welcome addition

...

@CrazyChris said:

I guess these positive responses wasn't what the OP wanted to see.

#195 Posted by probablytuna (3525 posts) -

Glad to see they removed it.

#196 Posted by SteveTabernacle (18 posts) -

About goddamn time.  I hated lugging around repair hammers and always being forced to have the armorer skill.  Free up space for a skill that is actually useful!  Good change.

#197 Posted by NickL (2246 posts) -

Why do people think that tedious RPG elements are the same thing as good RPG elements?

#198 Posted by krazy_kyle (716 posts) -

I wouldn't go as far as saying that they are removing RPG elements and dumbing the game down for idiots, I believe they are making the game mechanics less annoying because lets face it, I would happily remove the need to repair armor and weapons, simply because it was just annoying and didn't add any challenge to the game at all, just annoyance.

#199 Posted by Storms (341 posts) -
@NickL: I may find moderate doses of tedium and inconvenience helpful for immersion in a game but what really sucks is repeating myself several times in the same thread. So, if you care for an actual answer, read a few posts before yours.
#200 Posted by noobcubed (27 posts) -
@Djangosix said: 
also acrobatics and athletics were just as bad, i think they want to make the game so its more immersive rather than, you know...jumping every two steps to increase a silly skill.
The real problem with those two skills isn't that they break the immersion, it's that they are almost completely useless. And choosing them as primary skills in Oblivion is a death sentence (unless you turn down the difficulty and/or don't sleep).

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