Should the Divines be restored of The Elder Scrolls series

#1 Edited by Namekaze_Minato (22 posts) -

During the creation of Nim (the world of the Elder Scrolls Series); Lorkhan tricked the Aedra into contributing to its creation. But the Aedra realized that their own divinity was being drained to create Nim. Lorkhan died in the process of the world's creation.   
 
Some noticed this and escaped before being trapped (Magnus was one of them) ; most of them were trapped; however 8 of them willingly sacrificed their divinity for Nim, these are the 8 Divines. This is why the Divines control fewer spheres of life than the Daedric Princes; for instance: Akatosh is the Dragon god of time; while Mehrunes Dagon controls the spheres of Destruction, Change, Energy, and Ambition.  
 
What I am trying to get at is that the Aedra are outnumbered and outmatched. Bethesda could consider restoring the Divinity of the Divines through some means. Perhaps the heart of Lorkhan can be used; the Dragonborn could take it to Atherium, etc.

#2 Posted by Ronald_Raiden (1513 posts) -

man you probably care more about that fiction than almost all of the dev team

#3 Edited by Warfare (1632 posts) -

I was thinking about buying this game and now i'm not.

#4 Posted by FierceDeity (346 posts) -

I thought this was going to be a thread about restoring Talos (Emperor Tiber Septim) as the Ninth Divine.

#5 Posted by FengShuiGod (1470 posts) -

@Warfare said:

I was thinking about buying this game and now i'm not.

Honestly, I have no idea what game he is talking about.

#6 Posted by Jadeskye (4359 posts) -

@Riboflavin said:

man you probably care more about that fiction than almost all of the dev team

I was going to comment but the first response was essentially perfect. good show sir.

#7 Posted by Cold_Wolven (2167 posts) -

That reminds me that I need to play the new piece of DLC and as for the question of restoring Divines, sure why not.

#8 Edited by Warfare (1632 posts) -

@FengShuiGod said:

@Warfare said:

I was thinking about buying this game and now i'm not.

Honestly, I have no idea what game he is talking about.

I was thinking Skyrim but now that I looked at this again I think I fucked up.

#9 Posted by HistoryInRust (6215 posts) -

I have a hard time seeing the Elder Scrolls taking on that sort of scope. The Daedra and Aedra are mostly unrelatable to the typical player. And any conflict concerning or between the two groups is so far beyond the grounded reality of the pithy mortals on Tamriel that it would be laughable to think that one of those mortals, even one as esteemed as the Dovahkiin, could play any part of relative influence.

#10 Posted by Inkerman (1448 posts) -

Fuck...my brain is just....fucking fuck. HOW MANY OF THOSE FUCKING BOOKS HAVE YOUR READ? I'm legitimately impressed right now.

#11 Posted by Berserker976 (291 posts) -

I think that sort of meta conflict would make an excellent backdrop for a game in the series, personally.

I'm not sure it would make a lot of sense to focus the main story on it because as @HistoryInRust points out, a conflict of that scale would be relatively abstract to mortals.

It would be cool to see the lore "progress" though, it might give a better sense that the series is dynamic.

The only danger might be that if you start changing the lore in drastic ways the series might fall into the trap that so many other video game stories fall into, which is that everything has to get bigger and more significant in each iteration.

#13 Edited by Superfriend (1458 posts) -

@Inkerman said:

Fuck...my brain is just....fucking fuck. HOW MANY OF THOSE FUCKING BOOKS HAVE YOUR READ? I'm legitimately impressed right now.

You.. kinda get that information at the end of Oblivion. Not all of it, but the most important parts.

On topic: I think the Heart of Lorkhan and what will ultimately happen with the mortal realm after the events of Morrowind, that stuff will play some sort of role in the greater story of these games, since they kinda play up this whole end of the world thing in Skyrim. But honestly, I don´t think the devs are looking to expand on the more esoteric aspects of the series. Here´s hoping for some super hardcore last addon to Skyrim that really brings the heat story wise.

I just don´t think that´s the story they want to tell anymore. And that´s fine too. One of the best aspects about the Elder Scrolls lore is how its portrayed in the game and that there are very few definite answers to questions regarding the divines for example. A lot of times there are different accounts on the same events in books and ultimately very few people in the game know about "the truth" or even parts of it.

#14 Posted by Grimhild (719 posts) -

@Jadeskye said:

@Riboflavin said:

man you probably care more about that fiction than almost all of the dev team

I was going to comment but the first response was essentially perfect. good show sir.

Yup, pretty much. The amount of back-filling in TES is kind of funny if you look at it.

Like in Daggerfall when you could be friends with a dragon as part of your backstory when they've all been dead for centuries. And also speak "dragonish" (which had zero impact on gameplay).

Oops...

#15 Posted by Ravenlight (8033 posts) -
#16 Posted by MikkaQ (10225 posts) -

It's still weird to hear people calling them the 8 divines, having put a billion hours into Morrowind and hearing "By the nine!" a bunch.

#17 Posted by chainreaction01 (173 posts) -

@MikkaQ said:

It's still weird to hear people calling them the 8 divines, having put a billion hours into Morrowind and hearing "By the nine!" a bunch.

I'm with you, feel like every third line in Oblivion was "By the Nine Divines!" and hearing otherwise here throws me off.

#18 Posted by J12088 (432 posts) -

....What?

#19 Posted by BlastProcessing (901 posts) -

@Riboflavin said:

man you probably care more about that fiction than almost all of the dev team

Took the words right out of my mouth.

#20 Edited by mdnthrvst (261 posts) -

No. The Divines SACRIFICED their immortality and omnipotence to create the Mundus, the physical plane that encompasses Nirn; they became mortals to beget mortals. It was a willing sacrifice and one that cannot be undone period, and if it somehow were, it would mean the unmaking of the physical plane itself. That doesn't mean they aren't stupendously powerful - Akatosh did intervene to stop Mehrunes Dagon's invasion at the end of Oblivion, but only with the sacrifice of the Dragonborn Martin Septim and the Amulet of Kings.

The Daedra, on the other hand, who basically said "pfft, fuck that business" to Lorkhan's idea, retain their true "godhood", but can never beget living mortals. It's why Molag Bal can only create vampires - the undead - and Lesser Daedra are not truly considered "alive".

But more to the point, Giant Bomb is probably not the place to discuss intricate Elder Scrolls lore.

@Ravenlight said:

OP has nothing on this guy.

Also, since I'm sure SOMEONE was going to bring it up, that guy is an idiot who misunderstood CHIM, slung out his shoddy interpretation to the mainstream Elder Scrolls audience, and has thus ruined an interesting concept forever. It's probably silly to post here, but the essence of CHIM - derived from the Pocket Guide to the Empire, the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes, and most crucially the Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec, is thus - individuals of great power - probably *exclusively* gods, have the ability to realize that the entire universe of the Elder Scrolls, every weird metaphysical layer, is the dream of some great, sleeping Godhead. Now, when they realize this, what USUALLY happens is that they are blinked out of existence, as if the part of the Godhead that they comprised "woke up". However, if they have enormous willpower, they can resist this, and enter a state like lucid dreaming, whereby they realize the dream and can control it. Only Vivec and Tiber Septim - who IS a God, but not an Aedra, the convoluted source of the Thalmor's argument - have been able to do this and resist being destroyed.

CHIM has nothing to do with modding or quicksaving or any other nonsense that players get up to, because "Heroes" - the vague term for player characters - are never treated in the lore as having reality-bending powers. Mods are non-canon, which is patently obvious.

#21 Posted by TheFreepie (82 posts) -

@FierceDeity said:

I thought this was going to be a thread about restoring Talos (Emperor Tiber Septim) as the Ninth Divine.

#22 Posted by Colourful_Hippie (4281 posts) -

What?

#23 Posted by Breadfan (6586 posts) -
#24 Edited by mdnthrvst (261 posts) -

@TheFreepie: Oh, I guess it'd be helpful to clear the air about that whole Ninth Divine business while I'm at it.

The Thalmor ARE a bunch of revisionist assholes. Tiber Septim is a god and this was never disputed before Skyrim; hell, in Morrowind, if you ascend to the highest level of the Imperial Cult, Talos materializes in front of you and thanks you for your service.

Where it gets tricky is, the Nine Divines are basically eight Aedra plus Talos, who ascended to godhood later. Thus, while Nine Divines is perfectly accurate, there are only the Eight Aedra (although there are more than eight Aedra overall, such as Magnus the Sun, these are the ones that people actually worship). Still, there are way more gods in the Elder Scrolls than just the Aedra and Daedra, look at the Tribunal and Mannimarco, so the Aldmeri Dominion's claim is just the Elves being total dicks.

#25 Posted by OfficeGamer (1087 posts) -

I like the word Aedra. That's my contribution to this thread.

#26 Posted by Grimluck343 (1132 posts) -

@mdnthrvst said:

@Ravenlight said:

OP has nothing on this guy.

Also, since I'm sure SOMEONE was going to bring it up, that guy is an idiot who misunderstood CHIM, slung out his shoddy interpretation to the mainstream Elder Scrolls audience, and has thus ruined an interesting concept forever. It's probably silly to post here, but the essence of CHIM - derived from the Pocket Guide to the Empire, the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes, and most crucially the Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec, is thus - individuals of great power - probably *exclusively* gods, have the ability to realize that the entire universe of the Elder Scrolls, every weird metaphysical layer, is the dream of some great, sleeping Godhead. Now, when they realize this, what USUALLY happens is that they are blinked out of existence, as if the part of the Godhead that they comprised "woke up". However, if they have enormous willpower, they can resist this, and enter a state like lucid dreaming, whereby they realize the dream and can control it. Only Vivec and Tiber Septim - who IS a God, but not an Aedra, the convoluted source of the Thalmor's argument - have been able to do this and resist being destroyed.

CHIM has nothing to do with modding or quicksaving or any other nonsense that players get up to, because "Heroes" - the vague term for player characters - are never treated in the lore as having reality-bending powers. Mods are non-canon, which is patently obvious.

I thought CHIM was what Viviec and Tiber experienced on their path to godhood, but they weren't actually gods when they *achieved* CHIM.

But I haven't been invested in TES Lore since Morrowind so I might be completely off base.

#27 Posted by BillyTheKid (484 posts) -

I love me some Elder Scrolls but out of curiosities sake where did you get all this info? From the books inside the game?

Either way, I have 1% of an idea of what you are talking about.

#28 Edited by mdnthrvst (261 posts) -

@Grimluck343 said:

@mdnthrvst said:

@Ravenlight said:

OP has nothing on this guy.

Also, since I'm sure SOMEONE was going to bring it up, that guy is an idiot who misunderstood CHIM, slung out his shoddy interpretation to the mainstream Elder Scrolls audience, and has thus ruined an interesting concept forever. It's probably silly to post here, but the essence of CHIM - derived from the Pocket Guide to the Empire, the Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes, and most crucially the Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec, is thus - individuals of great power - probably *exclusively* gods, have the ability to realize that the entire universe of the Elder Scrolls, every weird metaphysical layer, is the dream of some great, sleeping Godhead. Now, when they realize this, what USUALLY happens is that they are blinked out of existence, as if the part of the Godhead that they comprised "woke up". However, if they have enormous willpower, they can resist this, and enter a state like lucid dreaming, whereby they realize the dream and can control it. Only Vivec and Tiber Septim - who IS a God, but not an Aedra, the convoluted source of the Thalmor's argument - have been able to do this and resist being destroyed.

CHIM has nothing to do with modding or quicksaving or any other nonsense that players get up to, because "Heroes" - the vague term for player characters - are never treated in the lore as having reality-bending powers. Mods are non-canon, which is patently obvious.

I thought CHIM was what Viviec and Tiber experienced on their path to godhood, but they weren't actually gods when they *achieved* CHIM.

But I haven't been invested in TES Lore since Morrowind so I might be completely off base.

No, Vivec achieved godhood through the Heart of Lorkhan, and CHIM came after that for him.

Talos... hm. I might be wrong - Tiber Septim is reported to have used the power of CHIM as a mortal, to transform the jungle of Ald Cyrod into the plains of Cyrodiil. If that is the case, it certainly stands to reason it played a part in his apotheosis - I haven't read up on the Arcturian Heresy in a while. The history is rather murky on this point.

Or maybe it's all propaganda and bullshit, who knows? That's the great thing about TES lore.

#29 Posted by HistoryInRust (6215 posts) -

@mdnthrvst: I think we should start an Elder Scrolls Lore thread. Because it's fucking awesome and I'm glad there's someone around here who's just as (if not moreso) involved with the history, mythology, and philosophies of the games as I am.

#30 Posted by mdnthrvst (261 posts) -

@HistoryInRust: That would be a neat idea - still, as you can see from my post count, I'm not really invested in the Giant Bomb community.

Would it go in the Skyrim forum?

Would it be just us talking down to everyone and people posting snarky comments of "you care about this more than the developers"?

#31 Posted by believer258 (11048 posts) -

I've put a hundred hours or more into Oblivion and as many into Skyrim and I don't know what you are talking about.

I mean, I've got vague ideas, but most of this stuff has no real bearing on the gameplay or the story.

#32 Posted by ThatFrood (3360 posts) -

The Elder Scrolls Lore is surprisingly interesting, it reads like a real mythology. It's largely because it comes from many different in-game texts, as opposed to just one "tome of lore", so the mythology, much like our own, is actually based on layers of pre-existing fictions. It makes the mythology feel strikingly real.

#33 Posted by mdnthrvst (261 posts) -

@believer258: It's like Dark Souls to an extent, honestly - the story of Dark Souls, if you're being brutally honest, is thus:

Chosen Undead hikes through Lordran and kills a bunch of creatures, collects souls, puts them in a bowl, kills God, and either kills himself or becomes a Dark Lord.

But there's more to it than that, obviously - in Dark Souls it's item descriptions, in The Elder Scrolls it's books.

#34 Posted by matti00 (663 posts) -

@HistoryInRust: I would check in on that thread, I find this stuff fascinating. I used to spend loads of time on The Imperial Library, and The Pocket Guide To The Empire has fairly prominent placement in my house.

@mdnthrvst: I've learned a fair bit from your posts, but could you clarify CHIM? Seems like a gap in my knowledge.

#35 Edited by mdnthrvst (261 posts) -

@matti00: I wrote a pastebin for it a long time ago:

http://pastebin.com/xXk4YYXj

That's very detailed and involved, but it boils down to this:

The Godhead exists outside of the universe, and the Elder Scrolls is his dream. Some individuals of great willpower can realize that they are projections in the Godhead's dream, and one of two things happens - they "Zero-Sum" and blink out of existence (it's called that because of a metaphor I go into in the paste), or resist their own undoing with their sheer egos and gain the power of a lucid dreamer. That is, omnipotence.

Or, CHIM could all be total bullcrap and Vivec just pulling our leg. That's the thing about Elder Scrolls lore - you desperately cling to these maddening little snippets and try to suss out what you can, but any single piece of it could be misinformation, deception, or propaganda. There are issues elsewhere with the Thirty-Six Lessons that make it totally possible this isn't even true WITHIN the Elder Scrolls universe.

Yeah, just read my pastebin thing, it's way more detailed, and gets into the specifics of the Thirty-Six Lessons, where all this madness comes from.

Of course, I wouldn't have had to bring up CHIM if it weren't for that stupid blogger and his stupid metaphysics, but I guess he ultimately wins for sheer popularity.

#36 Posted by TheHT (10288 posts) -

Shit, is this what's in all the books in the Elder Scrolls games?

I usually read a few then ignore them. Sounds pretty cool. I'd rather have some means of killing a Daedric prince, if that means sacrificing one of the Aedra. An Elder Scrolls game where at the end you up and wreck a god. Of course the combat would have to be satisfying first. Forget about dragons or closing portals.

Or it like Sheogorath for all princes? If they're killed they're replaced by their killer, or something like that?

#37 Posted by mdnthrvst (261 posts) -

@TheHT: Amusing that this has turned into Elder Scrolls Lore Q&A, but I guess I could explain.

Daedric Princes cannot be killed. They are not alive in the first place. When you "kill" an Atronach or a Dremora or whatever, you're basically destroying its physical projection in Nirn and sending its essence back to Oblivion, where it is eventually reformed.

At the end of Oblivion, when Mehrunes Dagon tried to burst into the Imperial City, Akatosh could only force him back into the Deadlands, his Plane of Oblivion. If a Daedra could've been killed, it would've happened there.

Sheogorath is a special case. Jyggalag, the Prince of Order you fight at the end, IS Sheogorath - they are one and the same. The other Princes put a curse on Jyggalag that forced him to become Sheogorath, and he could only turn back into his true self during the Greymarch.

When you defeat Jyggalag, he basically grants the player character Princehood, and you become Sheogorath to replace the old one, who apparently went back to being Jyggalag full-time. It's why Sheogorath in Skyrim is blind - Oblivion's Sheogorath told the PC he would make him so in dialogue.

#38 Posted by HistoryInRust (6215 posts) -
#39 Posted by Hizang (8534 posts) -

I don't know what you just said, but I know that The Adoring Fan is behind it all.

#40 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4282 posts) -

@mdnthrvst: Thanks for dropping knowledge on the whole CHIM thing. That said, I'm not sure if I want to take it as truth. Kinda trivializes everything you do in the Elder Scrolls series. I'm not sure I like that very much.

#41 Edited by mdnthrvst (261 posts) -

@Oldirtybearon said:

@mdnthrvst: Thanks for dropping knowledge on the whole CHIM thing. That said, I'm not sure if I want to take it as truth. Kinda trivializes everything you do in the Elder Scrolls series. I'm not sure I like that very much.

Eh, I don't think so. It's a Matrix situation - dying and living within the simulation still has relevance for that simulation, which as far as anyone knows is reality.

You're right that it's probably total bullshit, but it's fun bullshit nonetheless.

You should read the Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec.

#42 Posted by kindgineer (2486 posts) -

This thread made me realize how much of a dick this community can be. The guy asked a legitimate question. If you aren't that invested in the game that much - just don't respond.

#43 Posted by TheHT (10288 posts) -

@mdnthrvst: Hmmm, interesting. Are the daedric princes of the same make as the aedra? If so what happened that Lorkhan is considered 'dead'? If he died to create Nirn (is it just Nirn or Mundus itself that he created?) then couldn't a daedric prince be 'killed', even that required altering its state of being to another world or realm of existence?

Or I guess a simpler question would be why can't someone go into Oblivion and kill Mehrunes Dagon? I suppose if we knew exactly what happened to Lorkhan we would better know the limits of an aedra/daedric prince.

#44 Posted by jkz (3956 posts) -

@ck1nd said:

This thread made me realize how much of a dick this community can be. The guy asked a legitimate question. If you aren't that invested in the game that much - just don't respond.

This, really. I have a pretty decent understanding of elder scrolls lore compared to most people I've talked to about the series, but some of you guys have clearly dug way further into it, and from the way you describe it, it seems interesting as all hell. I find it fucking fascinating just reading through all this, and the idea of the "godhead" and all that mirrors the sorts of half-dumb existential quandaries I love thinking about while I daydream, and I mean that wholly positively; s'like brain candy.

So then why people feel the need to come in here and act like assholes just because someone cared more then they did and dug deeper into the lore, I'll never understand. It's so discouraging to people who are trying to get a feel for the community and all that. Even if it's sarcastic in nature and not intended to be antagonistic, conveying that through words alone is a delicate art, and most of the time you just come across as an asshole. There are times and places for humourous sarcasm, but threads where people are proposing legitimately interesting questions about a game's lore (the initial post wasn't actually referencing all that vague bits of the fiction, either) aren't it.

#45 Posted by steeeevil (8 posts) -

OK, so I get what CHIM is (and kinda REALLY don't), but is it an acronym or something?

#46 Edited by mdnthrvst (261 posts) -

@TheHT: This is quite a story.

Before the creation of the Mundus, before there was really anything, there was Anu and Padomay, the primal forces of Stasis and Change. Their interplay formed the Aurbis, which is everything that exists - imagine two great bubbles that touch and form a perfect circle, a rough metaphor from Vivec himself.

Early in the history of the Aurbis, Anuiel and Sithis came into being, respectively the "souls" of Anu and Padomay, and the first entities with any awareness or agency (though Sithis is obviously the more active of the two, presiding over the Dark Brotherhood as he does.)

Anuiel and Sithis in turn created Auri-El and Lorkhan. Auri-El is known to humans as Akatosh, and Lorkhan is known to Imperials as Shezarr and Nords as Shor. These were the first of the et'Ada, or the Original Spirits; before the creation of the Mundus there was no distinction between Aedra and Daedra. Others soon came into being following them.

For some reason, the Padomaic Lorkhan came up with the idea to form a physical realm, with mortal creatures that could create life, be bound by physical laws, and also die. For some reason Akatosh accepted. What happens next is the basis for most conflict in the Elder Scrolls, in some form or another.

Magnus drafted the plans for the Mundus, and all the et'Ada besides those who would become Daedra - Lorkhan, the Eight Divines, and the numerous lesser et'Ada - sacrificed their immortality to create the Mundus, which is the physical realm of the Aurbis. Fifteen et'Ada took no part in this process and retained the full breadth of their power, becoming known as the Daedric Princes; the greatest of the et'Ada who sacrificed themselves became known as the Aedra.

There were, however, more et'Ada than the famous "gods"; all the minor and less powerful Original Spirits who didn't become Aedra or Daedra became the first mortals of this realm, known as the Ehlnofey. Some of the Ehlnofey were horrified at having been torn from divinity; these would become the Elves. Men, however, did not believe themselves to be descended from the Aedra; they believed they were created from nothing but Lorkhan, and thus owed their entire existence to him. In their opinion, Lorkhan was the hero of mankind, which is why Shor and Shezarr play such a large role in Human mythology.

They fought. The Elven champion, a lesser Aedra known as Trinimac, destroyed Lorkhan, flinging his body into the sky where it would become the moons Masser and Secunda, and shooting his Heart on an arrow into the East, where it would land in Vvardenfell, to be found centuries later.

You asked about the Daedra, so I'll go into them a little bit. A Daedric Prince's Plane of Oblivion is that Daedric Prince, it encompasses their entire being and is completely subject to their will. They are like sentient planets that exist outside the physical universe, but can project themselves into it, and influence it. This is why Azura's realm is a blindingly beautiful palace of rose petals and Molag Bal's realm a fetid, decaying mirror of Nirn, which he always wishes to conquer. There are of course minor pockets of Oblivion that aren't subject to a Prince, such as Mankar Camoran's Paradise, though since Oblivion is infinite it makes sense that powerful individuals might mold parts of it to their will. To destroy a Daedric Prince would be to destroy an entire dimension, when the only beings powerful enough to do so are the Daedra themselves, and, as we see with Jyggalag, even they can't seem to do such a thing, instead relying on trickery.

However, Aedra can become Daedra, as evidenced by Trinimac, who was consumed by Boethiah and transformed into Malacath. Mortals can also become Daedra, as Jyggalag/Sheogorath the First bestowed the position of Sheogorath onto the Hero of Kvatch at the end of the Shivering Isles. This suggests that the status of Daedric Princehood isn't as rigid as it might seem, or as rigid as that of the Aedra, who are defined by their sacrifice.

I hope this was enlightening.

#47 Edited by mdnthrvst (261 posts) -

@steeeevil: This is a simple one. CHIM is a letter in Ehlnofex, the language of the Ehlnofey, which is the language that the actual Elder Scrolls are written in.

CHIM roughly means "Royalty", but the funny thing is Ehlnofex letters can only be directly perceived with great difficulty, twisting and changing and defying perception; looking at an Elder Scroll is nearly impossible for this very reason. To look upon the letter of CHIM is to see a Tower that threatens to break at the slightest lapse in concentration; much like the phenomenon of CHIM, wherein an individual threatens to be wiped out of the Godhead's dream at any moment if their concentration and willpower lapses.

#48 Posted by Namekaze_Minato (22 posts) -

HOLY  S%#T ! ......................I guess a guy can't just raise a hypothetical question out of curiosity around here without stirring the masses into a witch hunt.   

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