The Elder Scrolls Lore Thread

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#1 Posted by HistoryInRust (6321 posts) -

This is the Giant Bomb Community's one-stop shop for all things Elder Scrolls. Mythology, speculation, and clarification on terminology inherent to the series. All here!

Fire away! You N'wah!

#2 Posted by matti00 (668 posts) -

If you'd like to do some reading up, The Imperial Library is an invaluable resource. Just search for a topic that interests you and find out why the lore books are so interesting.

#3 Posted by Legion_ (1301 posts) -

@HistoryInRust: Is CHIM actually a official part of the Elder Scrolls lore? Can't ever remember it being mentioned in any game. Isn't it just some fan theory?

#4 Posted by Irvandus (2880 posts) -

@HistoryInRust: Exactly how screwed over is Morrowind in the 4E now? Like is it inhabited at all because I can't find any clear answers for just how wrecked it was.

#5 Posted by takayamasama (441 posts) -

@Irvandus: Morrowind is pretty screwed up at the time of the 4E.

Vvardenfell is uninhabitable due to red mountain's eruption, and continues to spew ash out with a strong force that cover the isle, even reaching the shores of Solstheim.

Mournhold has been sacked by the Argonians, if I'm not mistaken, and a large number of Dunmer were killed, so the people are still recovering from that.

Interestingly enough, after the events of TES: Morrowind, the Dunmer stopped believing and worshiping the Tribunal, and now consider themselves followers of 2 Daedra Princes, I'm afraid I can't remember which 2 off the top of my head.

#6 Posted by august (3846 posts) -

Why walk when you can ride?

#7 Posted by Irvandus (2880 posts) -

@takayamasama: Thanks. That clears stuff up a bit.

#8 Edited by takayamasama (441 posts) -

@Irvandus: No prob. The Dragonborn DLC goes into a lot of Morrowind's situation at the time of Skyrim, it was quite a delight to find the writers put so much lore in there.

Morrowind was/is my favorite game ever so anything that references it or talks about it is an insta-win to me.

#9 Posted by TheHT (11362 posts) -

Can an aedra or daedric lord ever die/be killed?

#10 Posted by Legion_ (1301 posts) -

@takayamasama said:

@Irvandus: Morrowind is pretty screwed up at the time of the 4E.

Vvardenfell is uninhabitable due to red mountain's eruption, and continues to spew ash out with a strong force that cover the isle, even reaching the shores of Solstheim.

Mournhold has been sacked by the Argonians, if I'm not mistaken, and a large number of Dunmer were killed, so the people are still recovering from that.

Interestingly enough, after the events of TES: Morrowind, the Dunmer stopped believing and worshiping the Tribunal, and now consider themselves followers of 2 Daedra Princes, I'm afraid I can't remember which 2 off the top of my head.

Three actually. Boethiah, Mephala and Azura. They were formerly the anticipations of the Tribual during their reign, and became the primary gods after the fall of the Tribunal.

#11 Posted by Legion_ (1301 posts) -

@TheHT said:

Can an aedra or daedric lord ever die/be killed?

An Aeadra can be killed, because they have agreed to the divine contract. Lorkhan is a example of this. The rules of the divine contract doesn't apply to the daedra however, making it impossible to actually kill one. They can be banished though.

#12 Posted by benspyda (2035 posts) -

Certainly the first time I have heard of CHIM... So CHIM is a bit like the Matrix?

It's the question that drives us, Dragonborn. It's the question that brought you here. You know the question, just as I did.

Dragonborn: What is CHIM?

#13 Posted by BirdkeeperDan (400 posts) -

Elder Scrolls can't be contained to one thread you swit. Just kidding I don't mind.

Who else is bothered by the Empire allowing Talos worship to be banned? How can you support such a weak Empire? You should see Ulfric Windhelm in Windhelm.

#14 Posted by Legion_ (1301 posts) -

@BirdkeeperDan said:

Elder Scrolls can't be contained to one thread you swit. Just kidding I don't mind.

Who else is bothered by the Empire allowing Talos worship to be banned? How can you support such a weak Empire? You should see Ulfric Windhelm in Windhelm.

Ulfric Stormcloak.

And yeah, I kinda feel you. Why support a corrupt Empire that is but a shadow of it's former self? Without a Septim heir, I feel no connection to the empire at all. A often used argument is that Skyrim alone can't stand against the Aldmeri Dominion, and therefor Cyrodiil is needed.

I tend to disagree. First off, less land to cover means that the troops won't be spread as thin. On top of that, Skyrim would have the Dragonborn fighting for them. You know, the guy who can tame dragons. I already have the power to summon two dragons, and I can ride every dragon out there. He's pretty powerful.

And third, there are always other factions to join up with. For instance, Hammerfell isn't part of the Empire, and they refuse the Dominion, even though the Empire gave it to them. Considering Redguards are considered the most naturally gifted warriors in Tamriel, they would make a pretty good addition to the troops.

And Ulfric is just such a charismatic figure.

#15 Posted by HistoryInRust (6321 posts) -

@Legion_ said:

@HistoryInRust: Is CHIM actually a official part of the Elder Scrolls lore? Can't ever remember it being mentioned in any game. Isn't it just some fan theory?

It's official lore. It's mentioned by name in the Mythic Dawn Commentaries, Manker Camoran's tomes concerning Paradise and Mehrunes Dagon.

From Mythic Dawn Commentaries 3:

CHIM. Those who know it can reshape the land.

The 36 Lessons of Vivec describe one deconstruction of CHIM as told by one of the two beings in the universe known to have achieved it (the other being Tiber Septim, more commonly known as Talos).

---

@Irvandus said:

@HistoryInRust: Exactly how screwed over is Morrowind in the 4E now? Like is it inhabited at all because I can't find any clear answers for just how wrecked it was.

@takayamasama said:

@Irvandus: Morrowind is pretty screwed up at the time of the 4E.

Vvardenfell is uninhabitable due to red mountain's eruption, and continues to spew ash out with a strong force that cover the isle, even reaching the shores of Solstheim.

I want to respond to this. Efforts are underway by the time Skyrim takes place to rebuild the lost cities of Vvardenfell. Balmora has since been rebuilt, as evidenced in the book The Red Year.

Other significant happenings include:

  • Vivec City is now a smoldering, boiling gulf of water.
  • Vivec himself is gone, his whereabouts and current health (being no longer an immortal) a mystery.
  • Your boy Jiub? The dude who wakes up the Nerevarine on the ship? Yeah, he ran off all the Cliff Racers and was made a saint for it.
#16 Posted by HistoryInRust (6321 posts) -

@Legion_: Ulfric is easily the most well-realized character in Skyrim. It's a shame most people can't look past his pro-Nord philosophy, which is disagreeable but not concrete and insurmountable. I agree with you that siding with the Stormcloaks actually results in the greatest benefit to the nation of Skyrim.

#17 Posted by Legion_ (1301 posts) -

@HistoryInRust: Jiub is actually in Skyrim as well. Spesifically in the Soul Cairn, added by the Dawnguard DLC.

#18 Posted by HistoryInRust (6321 posts) -

@Legion_ said:

@HistoryInRust: Jiub is actually in Skyrim as well. Spesifically in the Soul Cairn, added by the Dawnguard DLC.

Oh shit! I didn't know this!

#19 Posted by Legion_ (1301 posts) -

@HistoryInRust said:

@Legion_ said:

@HistoryInRust: Jiub is actually in Skyrim as well. Spesifically in the Soul Cairn, added by the Dawnguard DLC.

Oh shit! I didn't know this!

It's actually quite funny/sad when you meet him. I won't spoil it for you, but you can imagine his current state isn't stellar, considering his location.

#20 Posted by HistoryInRust (6321 posts) -

@Legion_: I haven't finished Dawnguard yet, but now I've got a reason to dig in, I guess!

#22 Posted by Legion_ (1301 posts) -

@HistoryInRust said:

@Legion_: I haven't finished Dawnguard yet, but now I've got a reason to dig in, I guess!

It's a blast. It's gotten some negative attention, but I found it really enjoyable. I did the Dawnguard part of it, and since I'm a heavy role player, it fit me really well. My main character is actually a dunmer vampire hunter. On that save I haven't even started the main questline. Personally, I find the game to be better when not playing as the Dragonborn.

But now I'm going all kinds off topic.

#23 Posted by Scooper (7881 posts) -

You know. I came into this thread to kinda troll it as "haha look at these nerds seriously discussing Elder Scrolls lore" and I've found myself super interested to go find out more about it all. So double-dumbass on me, I guess! :)

#24 Posted by mdnthrvst (268 posts) -

Fuck, I should've been here hours ago. Reposting my history of the universe just for completeness' sake:

Before the creation of the Mundus, before there was really anything, there was Anu and Padomay, the primal forces of Stasis and Change. Their interplay formed the Aurbis, which is everything that exists - imagine two great bubbles that touch and form a perfect circle, a rough metaphor from Vivec himself.

Early in the history of the Aurbis, Anuiel and Sithis came into being, respectively the "souls" of Anu and Padomay, and the first entities with any awareness or agency (though Sithis is obviously the more active of the two, presiding over the Dark Brotherhood as he does.)

Anuiel and Sithis in turn created Auri-El and Lorkhan. Auri-El is known to humans as Akatosh, and Lorkhan is known to Imperials as Shezarr and Nords as Shor. These were the first of the et'Ada, or the Original Spirits; before the creation of the Mundus there was no distinction between Aedra and Daedra. Others soon came into being following them.

For some reason, the Padomaic Lorkhan came up with the idea to form a physical realm, with mortal creatures that could create life, be bound by physical laws, and also die. For some reason Akatosh accepted. What happens next is the basis for most conflict in the Elder Scrolls, in some form or another.

Magnus drafted the plans for the Mundus, and all the et'Ada besides those who would become Daedra - Lorkhan, the Eight Divines, and the numerous lesser et'Ada - sacrificed their immortality to create the Mundus, which is the physical realm of the Aurbis. Fifteen et'Ada took no part in this process and retained the full breadth of their power, becoming known as the Daedric Princes; the greatest of the et'Ada who sacrificed themselves became known as the Aedra.

There were, however, more et'Ada than the famous "gods"; all the minor and less powerful Original Spirits who didn't become Aedra or Daedra became the first mortals of this realm, known as the Ehlnofey. Some of the Ehlnofey were horrified at having been torn from divinity; these would become the Elves. Men, however, did not believe themselves to be descended from the Aedra; they believed they were created from nothing but Lorkhan, and thus owed their entire existence to him. In their opinion, Lorkhan was the hero of mankind, which is why Shor and Shezarr play such a large role in Human mythology.

They fought. The Elven champion, a lesser Aedra known as Trinimac, destroyed Lorkhan, flinging his body into the sky where it would become the moons Masser and Secunda, and shooting his Heart on an arrow into the East, where it would land in Vvardenfell, to be found centuries later.

You asked about the Daedra, so I'll go into them a little bit. A Daedric Prince's Plane of Oblivion is that Daedric Prince, it encompasses their entire being and is completely subject to their will. They are like sentient planets that exist outside the physical universe, but can project themselves into it, and influence it. This is why Azura's realm is a blindingly beautiful palace of rose petals and Molag Bal's realm a fetid, decaying mirror of Nirn, which he always wishes to conquer. There are of course minor pockets of Oblivion that aren't subject to a Prince, such as Mankar Camoran's Paradise, though since Oblivion is infinite it makes sense that powerful individuals might mold parts of it to their will. To destroy a Daedric Prince would be to destroy an entire dimension, when the only beings powerful enough to do so are the Daedra themselves, and, as we see with Jyggalag, even they can't seem to do such a thing, instead relying on trickery.

However, Aedra can become Daedra, as evidenced by Trinimac, who was consumed by Boethiah and transformed into Malacath. Mortals can also become Daedra, as Jyggalag/Sheogorath the First bestowed the position of Sheogorath onto the Hero of Kvatch at the end of the Shivering Isles. This suggests that the status of Daedric Princehood isn't as rigid as it might seem, or as rigid as that of the Aedra, who are defined by their sacrifice.

I hope this was enlightening.

#25 Posted by mdnthrvst (268 posts) -

@takayamasama: The Dunmer worship the Anticipations as they always have, only now they don't insult them with such a condescending label.

Azura, Boethiah and Mephala.

#26 Posted by DizzyMedal (399 posts) -

@HistoryInRust said:

  • Does Alduin's defeat at the hands of the Dovahkiin actually preclude him from ever returning?

Ha, no. I think we all know it doesn't.

Also, for the TL;DR crowd, here's JesseCox giving you some hard hitting facts! (Well, the big bullet points, at any rate.)

#27 Posted by Irvandus (2880 posts) -

@Legion_: OH SNAP. Need to head back there now.

#28 Posted by Legion_ (1301 posts) -

@HistoryInRust: By the way, is CHIM a ultimate truth, or is a theory within the world? Basically, is it without a doubt certain that everything is the dream of the Godhead?

#29 Posted by SgtSphynx (1404 posts) -

So on PC CHIM would be `TGM?

#30 Edited by mdnthrvst (268 posts) -

@Legion_: It is just a theory; we can't be certain whether Vivec and Talos were truly omnipotent or their followers were just lying. But it's probably true. In a way, you have to take everything with a grain of salt; you can never be certain of anything unless you see it with your own eyes - Alduin was thrown through a Dragon Break, the Heart of Lorkhan is destroyed, Martin Septim is dead... that kind of stuff.

CHIM is more than likely true, for it has been consistently referred to multiple times, but its primary source, the Thirty Six Lessons of Vivec, is rife with propaganda, secrets, and outright falsehoods. Pretty much all of the pure history of the Lessons is accepted to be a lie, but for some reason people trust the metaphysics of it infallibly. Then again, Vivec IS a god.

@SgtSphynx: No, because player characters don't have CHIM. Mucking around with console commands or mods is just a factor of it being a video game, it isn't recognized by the lore.

#31 Posted by SgtSphynx (1404 posts) -

I was mainly just joking

#32 Edited by mdnthrvst (268 posts) -

Just posting something I screencapped from a /vg/ thread by the great Alpharius, probably the smartest lorefag outside of the Official Forums (and perhaps the Temple Zero Society). The smartest on 4chan, in any case.

A cosmological explanation of Dagoth Ur:

#33 Posted by Bane (423 posts) -

As a collector and reader of the in-game books I know the Elder Scrolls lore is deep, deeper than I've delved for sure, but holy shit. I started out googling CHIM because I had never heard of it before and now I'm falling into this metaphysics of the Elder Scrolls hole that's melting my brain.

#34 Posted by mdnthrvst (268 posts) -

@Bane: The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec, son. Get it from the source, because everyone's knowledge of CHIM is gleaned from it in one way or another.

And, on its own, it is a fantastically weird read. Even people who've studied it for years can't conclusively say they understand it completely.

#35 Posted by Legion_ (1301 posts) -

@mdnthrvst: Vicec is a false god though. Made divine by his connection to the Heart of Lorkhan. I would assume that he is dead by the time of Skyrim, even with knowledge of CHIM. I mean, Tiber Septim died at the age of 110, and he had knowledge of CHIM, and that didn't make him immortal. Or in a way it did, after all, he became a god. Who really knows?

#36 Edited by mdnthrvst (268 posts) -

@Legion_: Not a false god, but an ex-god. A crucial distinction. And actually, Vivec's fate is something they purposefully leave open-ended - during the Red Year (which coincided with the Oblivion Crisis), people in Cyrodiil remarked that he had disappeared. He might've been taken by the Daedra, he might be dead, or he might have bounced before shit went down.

We don't know.

It's also important to realize that in Vivec's case, CHIM doesn't play into his in-game portrayal - Michael Kirkbride wrote about 95% of all this metaphysical crap, but he wasn't in charge of Morrowind's overall plot. Vivec needs the Nerevarine to kill Dagoth Ur, as he was both weakened by the loss of Kagrenac's tools and needed to power the Ghostfence constantly. If we are to believe CHIM is completely true, the player's intervention would never have been necessary; I would explain it as Vivec holding back his powers perhaps to hide the true nature of his omnipotence, but the truth of the matter is, Morrowind's plot and metaphysics simply didn't coincide. And that's fine - it makes for a more interesting quandary, no? If Vivec had used CHIM to solve every problem to ever arise in Tamriel himself, that would've destabilized the very foundations of the world. Imagine if in the Matrix, everyone who saw Neo defying reality instantly and permanently vanished, and you'd get a pretty good idea of why. Keep in mind that 99.9% of all mortal (and immortal) beings in the Elder Scrolls probably don't have an ego large enough to resist Zero-Summing.

#37 Posted by Legion_ (1301 posts) -

@mdnthrvst: I think it actually makes sense for him to have the player character rise to become the Nerevarine. Perhaps he knew all along that the Nerevarine would succeed, and therefore took only too action when he was needed. Or maybe he just thought that if this world was meant to continue, it would be saved by someone who didn't know the true nature of the universe, someone who fought for his version of reality and the world he lived in. Vivec has to be distanced to a degree, just because of what he knows.

I hope they go deeper with this lore in the next game, which is possibility. I've read that the Aldermi Domions true purpose is to destroy or deactive the towers that binds Mundus to existence. If I remember correctly, there are seven towers, and five of these are deactivated, one is lost in time (Numidium, the walking tower) and one is still active, The Throath of the World, and this is the reason the Dominion is interested in Skyrim.

#38 Posted by Legion_ (1301 posts) -

@HistoryInRust said:

@Legion_: I haven't finished Dawnguard yet, but now I've got a reason to dig in, I guess!

By the way, same voice actor!

#39 Posted by mdnthrvst (268 posts) -

@Legion_: I have heard the same, though the Thalmor didn't seem particularly interested in the Throat of the World from what we saw. A main-line TES game is probably half a decade off still, so who can say.

#40 Posted by HistoryInRust (6321 posts) -

@Legion_: @mdnthrvst: What exactly is the pragmatic effect of disabling the towers, and how does that further the Aldmeri Dominion's cause? I don't know much about the Aldmeri, so I'm just working from the assumption that they are riding their post-Great War crusade against the human races in an effort to reclaim control of Tamriel for the Mer.

#41 Edited by mdnthrvst (268 posts) -

@HistoryInRust: The Tower theory is its own giant metaphysical clusterfuck of symbolism and possible meanings.

To get the story from its canonical or semi-canonical source, read the Nu-Mantia Intercept, but be prepared for excerpts like this:

"Scholarship on the subject of the metaphysical Tower is at an all-time high. Not since the Selective have we seen so much dangerous interest in the shezzarite power-symbols. Do any here think this an accident? That such work is not influenced by doppeldream and unlawful messaging? Do any here think this is not the work of the Tharnatos and his sleepers?

The fall of Red Tower should not be seen as the suave conquest of Cyrodiil's agencies, for we have been tricked again by the Dagonites. Though through long eras the chimerical landgods have subverted Divine rule, their protection of the First Stone should have remained as it was: the ironic protection of our enemies to our Enemy.

The Towers of the terrestrial plane have had their histories cloaked in lies and misinterpretations. That the lands they hold dominion over reverberate with troubles now in east and west should give common consent that they are reacting to an Empire-wide attention, sublunar and on dread purpose."

...

"Auriel-that-is-Akatosh returned to Mundex Arena from his dominion planet, signaling all Aedra to convene at a static meeting that would last outside of aurbic time. His sleek and silver vessel became a spike into the changing earth and the glimmerwinds of its impact warned any spirit that entered aura with it would become recorded-- that by consent of presence their actions here would last of a period unassailable, and would be so whatever might come later to these spirits, even if they rejoined the aether or succumbed willingly or by treachery to a sithite erasure. Thus could the Aedra and their cohorts truly covene in realness.

Our forebears saw the erection of Ada-mantia, Ur-Tower, and the Zero Stone. Let the Elders acknowledge this truth: every Tower bears its Stone. The impossipoint of the Convention was the first, though another bears the true title of First Stone."

I may sound like the smartest person ever, but trust me, I've forgotten more than I know - KINMUNE, Magne-Ge Pantheon, Loveletter from the Fifth Era - grappling with the mysteries of Michael Kirkbride's mind is like attempting the same with Joyce.

The simplest of all his so-called Obscure Texts is Vehk's Teaching, which restates the peerless Lessons of Vivec a bit more concisely and clearly. The Psijic Endeavor (separate from the Psijic Order, but both are derived from PSJJJ), the Tower, the Dragon Break, he goes into all of it there.

EDIT: I sort of didn't answer your question at all.

The way I understand the theory, destroying the Towers would unmoor the foundations of the Mundus, effectively undoing Lorkhan's great accomplishment and supposedly reuniting the Mer with their divine ancestry, in an act of Anuic triumph.

#42 Posted by Legion_ (1301 posts) -

@HistoryInRust said:

@Legion_: @mdnthrvst: What exactly is the pragmatic effect of disabling the towers, and how does that further the Aldmeri Dominion's cause? I don't know much about the Aldmeri, so I'm just working from the assumption that they are riding their post-Great War crusade against the human races in an effort to reclaim control of Tamriel for the Mer.

Well, the thing is, the Aldmeri want to reclaim what was once theirs. The basis of their religion is that Lorkhan stole their divinity. What they hope to achieve by destroying the towers, it actually the destroy the world. They believe they will be awarded for ending the race of man, and the award will be the return of their divine power. This link provides a good read.

"So what happens if the towers all collapse? It's never expressly stated but the destruction of each seems to indicate that the world will come apart. The eight towers provide pillars of support for the world and without those it would tear itself apart and return to its original state of being. This isn't to say that it is death; it could be the elven ideal of returning to Aetherius. The prevailing notion of thought is that upon death on Nirn people may return to Aetherius, where they are caught before time in a 'dream sleeve', subjected to amnesiac traumas, and returned to Nirn as a reincarnation.It's a decidedly dystopian method of thought in that regard.
.
Yet it was the Aldmeri who created the six remaining towers and as such brought stability to the world. If all the towers were undone then that eternal cycle of death would cease and Mundus would vanish back into the primordial state of being devoid of pain and unbound by the laws of physics and reality; time and space would have no meaning, neither would despair or discord. In essence, it could very well be a free ticket to heaven."
#43 Posted by HistoryInRust (6321 posts) -

@HansKisaragi: I like that theory. In fact, I like any theory wherein the Nerevarine leaves Vivec alive. Vivec's dialogue is so pithy, so melancholy. I feel like he understands how worthless an action it was to harness the Heart of Lorkhan when CHIM alone could bring him to godliness.

There was a Kirkbride quote somewhere, though I don't think I'd ever be able to drag up the exact source, where he said Vivec was "safe and sound in planes unrecorded." That could mean Oblivion, as it seems to at face value. But who knows.

I'm a lot more interested in the whereabouts of the Nerevarine himself. Ambient dialogue in Oblivion suggests he traveled to Akavir after the Nerevarine Prophecy was fulfilled, but I'm of half a mind to think that might in some way just be propaganda the Empire has spread clandestinely throughout Tamriel. It's difficult to believe they'd let their immortal godkilling superweapon just wander away from the continent into the obscurer parts of the world. But the Empire is in such political disarray by the time Skyrim begins that it's hard to say for sure.

#44 Posted by Bane (423 posts) -

@mdnthrvst said:

@Bane: The Thirty-Six Lessons of Vivec, son. Get it from the source, because everyone's knowledge of CHIM is gleaned from it in one way or another.

And, on its own, it is a fantastically weird read. Even people who've studied it for years can't conclusively say they understand it completely.

If you haven't already, check out this four part series called The Metaphysics of Morrowind on the falling awkwardly blog. Part three in particular talks about Vivec and his 36 Lessons. Pretty amazing stuff.

#45 Edited by mdnthrvst (268 posts) -

@Bane: I criticized it rather loudly either in this thread or another. Those essays are pretty bad.

The Metaphysics of Morrowind was a good introduction for most people, but on it's own the conclusions it draws are terrible.

The author seems insistent on an interpretation of CHIM that has no basis in the Elder Scrolls fiction - that it's a metaphor for mods, console commands, saving and loading, and all other facets of Elder Scrolls games as "games".

CHIM has nothing to do with any of this. Player characters have never achieved CHIM, because nowhere in the lore are they treated as having reality-bending powers. It is a quality possessed only by Tiber Septim and Vivec. The Metaphysics essays were good in that they drummed up interest, but with what they've done to distort the meaning of CHIM in people's eyes, I almost wish they didn't exist.

@HistoryInRust: Eh, most people took the Akavir thing at face value. For one the Nerevarine is immortal, regardless of his race, and Akavir is the only sensible solution - a Daedric clad demigod wielding a flaming sword would've made an impact on the Oblivion Crisis if he had been around, but he clearly didn't. Yeah, seems like Akavir is as much of an answer as we're going to get.

#46 Edited by HistoryInRust (6321 posts) -

@Legion_: A "free ticket to heaven" for the Aldmeri? To drop an SAT analogy -- Aldmeri : Destroying the Towers :: Covenant : Activating the Halos?

I guess my question, more coherently: Are they doing this only for the elves? Or do they pitch this to other races as being their ticket to salvation as well?

@mdnthrvst: I suppose I also don't have a grasp on the sheer scope of the Oblivion Crisis either. My assumption was that it was a Cyrodiil-only thing, since Mehrunes Dagon seemed chiefly concerned with sacking the Imperial City in order to invade the greater landmass. Did Dagon launch a full-scale effort against the other Tamriellic provinces as well?

#47 Posted by mdnthrvst (268 posts) -

@HistoryInRust: Having never played a Halo game, I got the impression from Drew and Alex's marathon that the Covenant leaders were either misinformed or suicidal. If that's true, perhaps, unless the Covenant had some secret plan to better themselves by dropping a metaphorical nuke.

The unmaking of the Mundus might be exactly the same sort of thing - unless the Dominion knows something we don't, of course.

The biggest problem, though, is that all of this is just conjecture and suggestion. I'd bet that it forms the basis of the next main-line Elder Scrolls game, but until then, the hints they dropped in Skyrim aren't enough to form a clear picture.

Based on the theories surrounding the metaphysical Tower, destroying all of them would seem to have SOME sort of effect.

#48 Edited by Legion_ (1301 posts) -

@HistoryInRust said:

@Legion_: A "free ticket to heaven" for the Aldmeri? To drop an SAT analogy -- Aldmeri : Destroying the Towers :: Covenant : Activating the Halos?

I guess my question, more coherently: Are they doing this only for the elves? Or do they pitch this to other races as being their ticket to salvation as well?

@mdnthrvst: I suppose I also don't have a grasp on the sheer scope of the Oblivion Crisis either. My assumption was that it was a Cyrodiil-only thing, since Mehrunes Dagon seemed chiefly concerned with sacking the Imperial City in order to invade the greater landmass. Did Dagon launch a full-scale effort against the other Tamriellic provinces as well?

Oblivion was all kinds of bad for the entire continent of Tamriel. The Crystal Tower in the Summerset Isles was for instance sacked during the crisis.

The Aldmeri are doing it for themselves. In the Mer creation myth, they are descendants of the original spirits. In the beginning, there were to beings, Anu (The First Serpent) and Padomay (Sithis), and they spawned all kinds of other beings, the original spirits. The original spirits weren't really sure what they were, until Akatosh showed up and with him, he brought time. Time helped the original spirits discover themselves.

One of the original spirits was Shezarr/Lorkhan/Shor. The Mer believe that he tricked the other original spirits into creating the world, and in turn they lost their power and became the Et'Ada. They were a subset of the Aedra (Our Ancestors in the Aldmeri), and the Mer creation myth says that these were the first of the Mer.

Now, the Aldmeri Domion believes that if they can destroy Mundus, Lorkhan's trickery will be undone, and they will regain their divinity. As for the race of Men, they believe that Lorkhan created them, and thus he is a benevolent creature. One would have to assume that the Aldmeri believe that Men will be destroyed along with the world of the trickster Lorkhan.

Just want to add that I really like that Men and Mer have that difference in their creation myth. Men see Lorkhan as their creator, and Mer see Lorkhan as their undoing.

#49 Posted by mdnthrvst (268 posts) -

@HistoryInRust: The Oblivion Crisis was very bad for the entirety of Tamriel - the Daedric invasion was one of the factors in the Red Year, that led to Vvardenfell getting trashed.

Described below is the Fall of Ald'ruhn:

"The armies of Oblivion destroy Ald’ruhn, ancestral home of House Redoran, even though ancient rituals were used to awaken the dread emperor crab and the whole city literally rose up to fight the invaders. With their warrior House decimated, the dunmer of Vvardenfell fall back as daedra move towards a siege of Ghost Gate. Prayers to Vivec and the Nerevarine go unanswered."

I was going to post a picture, but Giant Bomb's shitty uploading system isn't working. It's here:

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs21/f/2007/284/1/c/The_Fall_of_Ald__ruhn_by_Red_Aardvark.jpg

#50 Posted by HistoryInRust (6321 posts) -

@mdnthrvst said:

@HistoryInRust: Having never played a Halo game, I got the impression from Drew and Alex's marathon that the Covenant leaders were either misinformed or suicidal. If that's true, perhaps, unless the Covenant had some secret plan to better themselves by dropping a metaphorical nuke.

The unmaking of the Mundus might be exactly the same sort of thing - unless the Dominion knows something we don't, of course.

The biggest problem, though, is that all of this is just conjecture and suggestion. I'd bet that it forms the basis of the next main-line Elder Scrolls game, but until then, the hints they dropped in Skyrim aren't enough to form a clear picture.

Based on the theories surrounding the metaphysical Tower, destroying all of them would seem to have SOME sort of effect.

The Covenant are absolutely misinformed. They have no idea that their goal would lead directly to their total annihilation. But the factuality of the lore in Halo is much more elementary, so much to the point that there's no real arguing it. The Covenant are misinformed about what the Halos do, the humans know that, and that's the extent of it.

With Elder Scrolls, as has brought up, the lore conflicts depending on the accounts. And there's no Deus Ex to give us an objective info-dump. Which, in my opinion, makes it a lot more interesting to make conjectural theories about. That's my preferred way to discuss the games, to be totally transparent. I love trying to fill the blanks when we simply don't have the necessary information to answer it concretely. Ah. Just thinking about it gets me excited.

@Legion_ said:

Just want to add that I really like that Men and Mer have that difference in their creation myth. Men see Lorkhan as their creator, and Mer see Lorkhan as their undoing.

I agree with full sincerity. To refer back to Halo: That game's "lore" is so black and white that the conflict boils down to simple diametric labels. With or against. Covenant, Human.

The Elder Scrolls makes this sort of poli-religious conflict way more reflexive. It becomes a powerful commentary on the actual values of the factions and their systems of thought, and further, a commentary on like-natured conflicts in the natural world. The Skyrim Civil War plotline is my favorite for this exact reason. It isn't just, "Well, one's racist and one is outlawing a specific religiosity." There are layers to peel back like an onion. To have an educated stance on the matter the player has to consider the recent and not-so recent histories perpetuating the conflict, the beneficiaries in each prospective scenario.

The Man/Mer creation myths have that same level of care in their crafting. And the dynamic between the factions, or races or whatever, is that much more detailed. Suddenly it's not just racism for racism's sake, but there's verisimilitude to the tug of war, reasonings that go deeper and cut harder.

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