Black protagonist

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#151 Posted by Marz (5648 posts) -

black JC Denton yo

#152 Posted by mellotronrules (1179 posts) -

@Marz said:

black JC Denton yo

haha, nicely done.

#153 Posted by heatDrive88 (2300 posts) -

This thread is a pretty good example why we can't have nice things.

#154 Posted by theManUnknown (161 posts) -

I think it is inarguably laudable that Telltale took the route of making Lee their protagonist. However you might feel about this thread's celebration of that fact, at the end of the day it seems undeniable that this industry continues to have has this perception that non-white-male protagonists are not going to be able to properly connect or resonate with their game's target audience. The Walking Dead's success decidedly contests this notion, and that is worth recognition.

However you cut it, Lee is an atypical video game protagonist. I note there are some in this thread suggesting we ought to stop perceiving him as so great an exception if we are to move beyond this issue of diversity in videogames, but I think that's the wrong way to address the issue. In truth, I suspect there's little those in this thread who celebrate Lee's character want more than for him to be much less the exception he is, but Lee's status as an exception to this rule of white male videogame protagonists is only going to go away if he gets company. So, it is worth celebrating Lee as a character if it might encourage companies to take more perceived "risks" in his vein.

#155 Posted by Grillbar (1812 posts) -

honestly i really dont care what ethnicity the main character is. and i really dont pay attention to it. nor gender.

so really i dont care.

im gonna ask for some a bold question so please dont hate me for it.

but is this an american thing since they live with the burden of the past

it seems to me that they care way more about praising and giving attention to a race instead of the person.

where im used to not caring what race you are since i honestly dont think it matters in the broad spectrum.

og and here are some games that come to mind since OP only could think of 3

moonwalker (that michael jackson game)

those michael jordan

spawn

akuji the heartless

shadow man (i really want someone to make a hd version of that game plz)

that blade game

beyond good and evil

that bad boys game

men of valor

marc ekko's getting up content under pressure

25 to life

bad day la

that catwoman game

think there was a game named daley thompson's something something it was a basketball game if i remember correctly

a bunch of boxing games

urban chaos

la rush

sanity aikens artifact

the scorpion king

both sin games

true crimes nyc

unreal 2

and who can forget

Wu-tang: shaolin style

and to som degree fahrenheit or indigo prophecy had multiple main guys one of them was called miles something. one of the cops but dont know if he counts

i can actually think of more games with a black guy then an asian. granted im not counting a good amount of jap only games

but the game is good and lee is a good main charecter

@VisariLoyalist said:

Is there a concept page for black main character? Or is that too racist to exist as a thing? hrm...

dont think it is needed since you need to make one for every ethnicity. and i think it way more racist to but races in different boxes then just in one box as main character. but hey that just my opinion. and i guess there is an argument for using that specific search maybe

#156 Edited by Zeik (2337 posts) -

@Grillbar said:

but is this an american thing since they live with the burden of the past

it seems to me that they care way more about praising and giving attention to a race instead of the person.

If you're suggesting race is an issue because everyone in America has guilt about slavery that's just incredibly ignorant. Race is an issue because there are still racial issues happening in modern society. It would be wonderful if race truly was not an issue and any person of any race was treated the same, but that's not actually how it is. Just pretending everything is equal and fair does not make everything equal and fair.

I get this impression that some people want to just sweep the issue of race under a rug and pretend like it's not there, but just because you are able to pretend it doesn't matter it doesn't mean that other people won't notice the gigantic lump of bigotry and stereotypes under that rug. Examples of good representations of minorities do need to be noticed, because there are still so many bad representations. If everyone just acts like it doesn't really matter then there's no reason for anyone to actually strive for good representations, because clearly no one cares one way or another.

We all want to see the day when a character like Lee is not unusual in media, but we aren't there yet, so we need to make sure people are reminded of that.

Online
#157 Edited by mellotronrules (1179 posts) -

@Zeik said:

@Grillbar said:

but is this an american thing since they live with the burden of the past

it seems to me that they care way more about praising and giving attention to a race instead of the person.

If you're suggesting race is an issue because everyone in America has guilt about slavery that's just incredibly ignorant. Race is an issue because there are still racial issues happening in modern society. It would be wonderful if race truly was not an issue and any person of any race was treated the same, but that's not actually how it is. Just pretending everything is equal and fair does not make everything equal and fair.

grillbar- if your point is americans have a particular sensitivity to race issues, i think that's fair- we have a troubled past between slavery, world war 2 internment camps, the civil rights movement (which is on-going) and affirmative action. this 'burden of the past' is (in my opinion) legitimate, as it's the only way to learn from history. but i DON'T ascribe these are concepts solely to americans- we are not the only people with a 'burden,' nor are we the only with race issues. take germany as an example- there's a specific, historical reason why nazism is illegal in germany in any fashion, and why a specific brand of free speech is forbidden in that country. yes- that's a strange burden for germans of my age to bear (being they were born WELL after WW2), but it is there nonetheless. and europe is rife with race issues- take french arabs, german turks, or balkans in a host of countries.

point is, i suppose- it's a 'human history' thing, not an 'american' thing. it's like the cliche goes, you have to learn from history or you're doomed to repeat it.

also- i think it's unfair to say we 'care way more about praising and giving attention to a race instead of the person.' that's a pretty big generalization i don't think you can prove. also, please know that while i think it's admirable to say you're gender-and-color-blind, respectfully, i don't believe you. because i don't think any human is capable of achieving that level of non-partiality. that DOESN'T mean it isn't an ideal to strive or hold yourself to- to the contrary, all the more reason to constantly seek to achieve that.

#158 Posted by Rasmoss (453 posts) -
@Grillbar To answer your question: I started this topic. I am not American.
#159 Posted by Jams (2960 posts) -

@Milkman said:

@Jams: What other side of the argument are you referring to? Hell, what's the argument at all? This thread was made to praise TellTale for creating a black main character that didn't fall into the same tired stereotypes that we see constantly in video games. What is it that you'd like to debate here? That video games don't have a problem with racial (or gender) stereotypes? That Lee is not a good example here? What point are you actually trying to make? Because posting a picture of this one black character you know and calling the rest of the thread a "circle jerk" isn't very helpful.

The fact that people are making a mountain out of a mole hill. The fact that you "praise" someone for choosing a certain skin color as long as it isn't white. How fucked up is that? It seems the same people that want to get rid of racism are the same people who want to make sure we remember who's what color. Today in this thread, it's good to pick one race as a character over the other because it's the right thing to do. Doesn't that sound a little backwards to what equality is? Everyday on these forums seems like it's only good if its a woman or other than white male protagonist. Don't you see? That's how racist think! You guys are trying so hard to be equal that you all are becoming what you hate. That is people who pick things based on what they think is the best color, gender, etc.

Who cares if he's black? He's just another person with an interesting story. Go ahead and continue on in life reminding people of the color of their skin and telling them if it's good or not.

#160 Posted by Animasta (14667 posts) -

@Jams: or, you know, some people just want some diversity in their character selection now and then.

#161 Edited by jdh5153 (1034 posts) -

NBA 2k13.

50 Cent Blood on the Sand (or whatever it is)

Def Jam games

Halo (I think Master Chief is probably black)

#162 Posted by JasonR86 (9651 posts) -

@Jams said:

Don't forget the Sin franchise.

I'd also like to say that I'm done with take one way internet conversations about social issues and politics seriously. It's clear that they're always one sided and there's no debatable value to them. Threads like this are a waste of time because they're made to seem like they want discussions to take place, but it's really just a circle jerk for the people that agree. Nothing useful comes from these kinds of threads.

Wait, why did you participate in the thread and then yell about it?

#163 Posted by FunkasaurasRex (847 posts) -
@Jams The only person making a mountain out of a molehill is you buddy. There's absolutely nothing wrong with people wanting to see different groups of people better and more widely represented in games.
#164 Posted by Animasta (14667 posts) -

@JasonR86: because he wanted to let us know that by acknowledging a good character who happens to be black is good and that's rare, we're racist.

#165 Posted by Wraxend (560 posts) -

Hadn't even dawned on me to think of Lee as a black protagonist, to me he was just a human being. Don't know if that says something more about me personally :D

#166 Posted by JasonR86 (9651 posts) -

@Wraxend said:

Hadn't even dawned on me to think of Lee as a black protagonist, to me he was just a human being. Don't know if that says something more about me personally :D

It says that you're Jesus Christ you color-blind, magnificent man you!

#167 Posted by Animasta (14667 posts) -

@JasonR86 said:

@Wraxend said:

Hadn't even dawned on me to think of Lee as a black protagonist, to me he was just a human being. Don't know if that says something more about me personally :D

It says that you're Jesus Christ you color-blind, magnificent man you!

that'd be a cool colorblindness

I mean you could still probably tell by hair, eyes, bone structure, but still.

#168 Posted by Wraxend (560 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Wraxend said:

Hadn't even dawned on me to think of Lee as a black protagonist, to me he was just a human being. Don't know if that says something more about me personally :D

It says that you're Jesus Christ you color-blind, magnificent man you!

that'd be a cool colorblindness

I mean you could still probably tell by hair, eyes, bone structure, but still.

Haha thanks I knew I was special, even before the therapist told me so :)

#169 Posted by Grillbar (1812 posts) -

@Zeik said:

@Grillbar said:

but is this an american thing since they live with the burden of the past

it seems to me that they care way more about praising and giving attention to a race instead of the person.

If you're suggesting race is an issue because everyone in America has guilt about slavery that's just incredibly ignorant. Race is an issue because there are still racial issues happening in modern society. It would be wonderful if race truly was not an issue and any person of any race was treated the same, but that's not actually how it is. Just pretending everything is equal and fair does not make everything equal and fair.

I get this impression that some people want to just sweep the issue of race under a rug and pretend like it's not there, but just because you are able to pretend it doesn't matter it doesn't mean that other people won't notice the gigantic lump of bigotry and stereotypes under that rug. Examples of good representations of minorities do need to be noticed, because there are still so many bad representations. If everyone just acts like it doesn't really matter then there's no reason for anyone to actually strive for good representations, because clearly no one cares one way or another.

We all want to see the day when a character like Lee is not unusual in media, but we aren't there yet, so we need to make sure people are reminded of that.

i think you miss understand, im not saying that it does not exist anymore and that it should not be talked about, ofc it still exist in most of the world and we all should work towards equality but what im talking about is not equality with races but people.

and im not saying that the guilt of the past no matter where you live is a bad thing, dont get me wrong it would be better if it never happened but fuck it im so bad at explaining myself in text form but hopefully you know what i mean

#170 Posted by JasonR86 (9651 posts) -

@Grillbar said:

@Zeik said:

@Grillbar said:

but is this an american thing since they live with the burden of the past

it seems to me that they care way more about praising and giving attention to a race instead of the person.

If you're suggesting race is an issue because everyone in America has guilt about slavery that's just incredibly ignorant. Race is an issue because there are still racial issues happening in modern society. It would be wonderful if race truly was not an issue and any person of any race was treated the same, but that's not actually how it is. Just pretending everything is equal and fair does not make everything equal and fair.

I get this impression that some people want to just sweep the issue of race under a rug and pretend like it's not there, but just because you are able to pretend it doesn't matter it doesn't mean that other people won't notice the gigantic lump of bigotry and stereotypes under that rug. Examples of good representations of minorities do need to be noticed, because there are still so many bad representations. If everyone just acts like it doesn't really matter then there's no reason for anyone to actually strive for good representations, because clearly no one cares one way or another.

We all want to see the day when a character like Lee is not unusual in media, but we aren't there yet, so we need to make sure people are reminded of that.

i think you miss understand, im not saying that it does not exist anymore and that it should not be talked about, ofc it still exist in most of the world and we all should work towards equality but what im talking about is not equality with races but people.

and im not saying that the guilt of the past no matter where you live is a bad thing, dont get me wrong it would be better if it never happened but fuck it im so bad at explaining myself in text form but hopefully you know what i mean

It's probably the 'is it an American thing' that set off that response. The US wasn't the only place that treated non-Whites like shit.

As for bringing this up, I think it's worth noting because look at video game protagonists. Very few are non-white or non-male. So making a protagonist in a video game a black man is certainly worth noting. As for the conversation following the notation I have no idea where it would go and real thoughtful conversation probably won't be done in an online forum. But noting this unique aspect of the game certainly seems like a fine thing to do.

Plus, and I know people mean the best when they say this, but saying 'I see the person not the color' doesn't equate to some progressive, non-racists rhetoric. One of the things I had to learn rather quickly as a mental health therapist who is a white male from a middle class family is that that attitude can be interpreted several different ways. I've had clients who would say that such a comment plays down culture and dumbs down the idiosyncrasies of a culture into a grey, dull mess. The reality is that we are all different from one another and all of our features, our past, our present, the cultures we identify with, our society, every aspect of ourselves play a key role in defining who we are. Race is a huge basis for the framework for many, many people. Saying "I don't see race' can often sound like 'I don't see a part of you'. And not everyone will take that comment that way. Everyone is different. But it is important to realize that the sentiment "I don't see color" isn't necessarily a great thing to announce. It doesn't make a person sound more progressive or tolerant.

#171 Posted by Grillbar (1812 posts) -

@JasonR86 said:

@Grillbar said:

@Zeik said:

@Grillbar said:

but is this an american thing since they live with the burden of the past

it seems to me that they care way more about praising and giving attention to a race instead of the person.

If you're suggesting race is an issue because everyone in America has guilt about slavery that's just incredibly ignorant. Race is an issue because there are still racial issues happening in modern society. It would be wonderful if race truly was not an issue and any person of any race was treated the same, but that's not actually how it is. Just pretending everything is equal and fair does not make everything equal and fair.

I get this impression that some people want to just sweep the issue of race under a rug and pretend like it's not there, but just because you are able to pretend it doesn't matter it doesn't mean that other people won't notice the gigantic lump of bigotry and stereotypes under that rug. Examples of good representations of minorities do need to be noticed, because there are still so many bad representations. If everyone just acts like it doesn't really matter then there's no reason for anyone to actually strive for good representations, because clearly no one cares one way or another.

We all want to see the day when a character like Lee is not unusual in media, but we aren't there yet, so we need to make sure people are reminded of that.

i think you miss understand, im not saying that it does not exist anymore and that it should not be talked about, ofc it still exist in most of the world and we all should work towards equality but what im talking about is not equality with races but people.

and im not saying that the guilt of the past no matter where you live is a bad thing, dont get me wrong it would be better if it never happened but fuck it im so bad at explaining myself in text form but hopefully you know what i mean

It's probably the 'is it an American thing' that set off that response. The US wasn't the only place that treated non-Whites like shit.

As for bringing this up, I think it's worth noting because look at video game protagonists. Very few are non-white or non-male. So making a protagonist in a video game a black man is certainly worth noting. As for the conversation following the notation I have no idea where it would go and real thoughtful conversation probably won't be done in an online forum. But noting this unique aspect of the game certainly seems like a fine thing to do.

Plus, and I know people mean the best when they say this, but saying 'I see the person not the color' doesn't equate to some progressive, non-racists rhetoric. One of the things I had to learn rather quickly as a mental health therapist who is a white male from a middle class family is that that attitude can be interpreted several different ways. I've had clients who would say that such a comment plays down culture and dumbs down the idiosyncrasies of a culture into a grey, dull mess. The reality is that we are all different from one another and all of our features, our past, our present, the cultures we identify with, our society, every aspect of ourselves play a key role in defining who we are. Race is a huge basis for the framework for many, many people. Saying "I don't see race' can often sound like 'I don't see a part of you'. And not everyone will take that comment that way. Everyone is different. But it is important to realize that the sentiment "I don't see color" isn't necessarily a great thing to announce. It doesn't make a person sound more progressive or tolerant.

i agree with you in every way and i can see what you mean by what i said could be seen as a negative thing.

ill try to elaborate what i meant but i dont think it help.

im fine with people being proud of there race and heritage, and culture ways, that is only a good thing.

what i meant by saying "i dont see colour" was that i dont care what colour, gender, creed or sexual orientation you might have im still going to treat them accordingly to how they treat me. but while still trying to respect there culture,creed and so on

basically it all boils down to the saying "we all bleed red" it might not be fitting to say this in this conversation but hopefully you get what im saying.

and to the "It's probably the 'is it an American thing" the reason i think im asking in that specific country might be that most of my focus on social stuff and what not is on the U.S.

so i mean it as a positive thing. but maybe that not for me to decide if it is or not

#172 Posted by JasonR86 (9651 posts) -

@Grillbar said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Grillbar said:

@Zeik said:

@Grillbar said:

but is this an american thing since they live with the burden of the past

it seems to me that they care way more about praising and giving attention to a race instead of the person.

If you're suggesting race is an issue because everyone in America has guilt about slavery that's just incredibly ignorant. Race is an issue because there are still racial issues happening in modern society. It would be wonderful if race truly was not an issue and any person of any race was treated the same, but that's not actually how it is. Just pretending everything is equal and fair does not make everything equal and fair.

I get this impression that some people want to just sweep the issue of race under a rug and pretend like it's not there, but just because you are able to pretend it doesn't matter it doesn't mean that other people won't notice the gigantic lump of bigotry and stereotypes under that rug. Examples of good representations of minorities do need to be noticed, because there are still so many bad representations. If everyone just acts like it doesn't really matter then there's no reason for anyone to actually strive for good representations, because clearly no one cares one way or another.

We all want to see the day when a character like Lee is not unusual in media, but we aren't there yet, so we need to make sure people are reminded of that.

i think you miss understand, im not saying that it does not exist anymore and that it should not be talked about, ofc it still exist in most of the world and we all should work towards equality but what im talking about is not equality with races but people.

and im not saying that the guilt of the past no matter where you live is a bad thing, dont get me wrong it would be better if it never happened but fuck it im so bad at explaining myself in text form but hopefully you know what i mean

It's probably the 'is it an American thing' that set off that response. The US wasn't the only place that treated non-Whites like shit.

As for bringing this up, I think it's worth noting because look at video game protagonists. Very few are non-white or non-male. So making a protagonist in a video game a black man is certainly worth noting. As for the conversation following the notation I have no idea where it would go and real thoughtful conversation probably won't be done in an online forum. But noting this unique aspect of the game certainly seems like a fine thing to do.

Plus, and I know people mean the best when they say this, but saying 'I see the person not the color' doesn't equate to some progressive, non-racists rhetoric. One of the things I had to learn rather quickly as a mental health therapist who is a white male from a middle class family is that that attitude can be interpreted several different ways. I've had clients who would say that such a comment plays down culture and dumbs down the idiosyncrasies of a culture into a grey, dull mess. The reality is that we are all different from one another and all of our features, our past, our present, the cultures we identify with, our society, every aspect of ourselves play a key role in defining who we are. Race is a huge basis for the framework for many, many people. Saying "I don't see race' can often sound like 'I don't see a part of you'. And not everyone will take that comment that way. Everyone is different. But it is important to realize that the sentiment "I don't see color" isn't necessarily a great thing to announce. It doesn't make a person sound more progressive or tolerant.

i agree with you in every way and i can see what you mean by what i said could be seen as a negative thing.

ill try to elaborate what i meant but i dont think it help.

im fine with people being proud of there race and heritage, and culture ways, that is only a good thing.

what i meant by saying "i dont see colour" was that i dont care what colour, gender, creed or sexual orientation you might have im still going to treat them accordingly to how they treat me. but while still trying to respect there culture,creed and so on

basically it all boils down to the saying "we all bleed red" it might not be fitting to say this in this conversation but hopefully you get what im saying.

and to the "It's probably the 'is it an American thing" the reason i think im asking in that specific country might be that most of my focus on social stuff and what not is on the U.S.

so i mean it as a positive thing. but maybe that not for me to decide if it is or not

I hear you man. This is a tough issue to talk about. Especially over the internet.

#173 Posted by BSw (252 posts) -

@SharkEthic said:

YAY POLITICAL CORRECTNESS!

Just a thing, are any of you guys even black? Like with women in gaming, men seem to make the biggest deal out of the lack of female protagonists. Where is the outcry by the black community for more black people in gaming?

@Rasmoss said:

He is just a dude, who happens to be black, and he is totally relatable to anyone who plays the game regardsless of their race.

It's almost like he's...dare I say...human? We need to get past these issues, dudes. We have a black president, I think that's a deffinet indication that black people "won the war". Let's stop celebrating political correctness for the sake of celebrating political correctness.

I totally agree. The fact that someone puts an emphasis on the skin colour to begin with is ridiculous. If you really want to celebrate it, stop talking about it like it's something special.

#174 Posted by golguin (3868 posts) -

@JasonR86 said:

@Grillbar said:

@Zeik said:

@Grillbar said:

but is this an american thing since they live with the burden of the past

it seems to me that they care way more about praising and giving attention to a race instead of the person.

If you're suggesting race is an issue because everyone in America has guilt about slavery that's just incredibly ignorant. Race is an issue because there are still racial issues happening in modern society. It would be wonderful if race truly was not an issue and any person of any race was treated the same, but that's not actually how it is. Just pretending everything is equal and fair does not make everything equal and fair.

I get this impression that some people want to just sweep the issue of race under a rug and pretend like it's not there, but just because you are able to pretend it doesn't matter it doesn't mean that other people won't notice the gigantic lump of bigotry and stereotypes under that rug. Examples of good representations of minorities do need to be noticed, because there are still so many bad representations. If everyone just acts like it doesn't really matter then there's no reason for anyone to actually strive for good representations, because clearly no one cares one way or another.

We all want to see the day when a character like Lee is not unusual in media, but we aren't there yet, so we need to make sure people are reminded of that.

i think you miss understand, im not saying that it does not exist anymore and that it should not be talked about, ofc it still exist in most of the world and we all should work towards equality but what im talking about is not equality with races but people.

and im not saying that the guilt of the past no matter where you live is a bad thing, dont get me wrong it would be better if it never happened but fuck it im so bad at explaining myself in text form but hopefully you know what i mean

It's probably the 'is it an American thing' that set off that response. The US wasn't the only place that treated non-Whites like shit.

As for bringing this up, I think it's worth noting because look at video game protagonists. Very few are non-white or non-male. So making a protagonist in a video game a black man is certainly worth noting. As for the conversation following the notation I have no idea where it would go and real thoughtful conversation probably won't be done in an online forum. But noting this unique aspect of the game certainly seems like a fine thing to do.

Plus, and I know people mean the best when they say this, but saying 'I see the person not the color' doesn't equate to some progressive, non-racists rhetoric. One of the things I had to learn rather quickly as a mental health therapist who is a white male from a middle class family is that that attitude can be interpreted several different ways. I've had clients who would say that such a comment plays down culture and dumbs down the idiosyncrasies of a culture into a grey, dull mess. The reality is that we are all different from one another and all of our features, our past, our present, the cultures we identify with, our society, every aspect of ourselves play a key role in defining who we are. Race is a huge basis for the framework for many, many people. Saying "I don't see race' can often sound like 'I don't see a part of you'. And not everyone will take that comment that way. Everyone is different. But it is important to realize that the sentiment "I don't see color" isn't necessarily a great thing to announce. It doesn't make a person sound more progressive or tolerant.

I see color and differences obviously, but the difference is it's not something I'm thinking about. If I see a cute Asian chick I'm looking at her because I like what I see. I will also look away from an Asian chick that isn't my type. It isn't really as complicated as you are making it out to be.

#175 Posted by JasonR86 (9651 posts) -

@golguin said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Grillbar said:

@Zeik said:

@Grillbar said:

but is this an american thing since they live with the burden of the past

it seems to me that they care way more about praising and giving attention to a race instead of the person.

If you're suggesting race is an issue because everyone in America has guilt about slavery that's just incredibly ignorant. Race is an issue because there are still racial issues happening in modern society. It would be wonderful if race truly was not an issue and any person of any race was treated the same, but that's not actually how it is. Just pretending everything is equal and fair does not make everything equal and fair.

I get this impression that some people want to just sweep the issue of race under a rug and pretend like it's not there, but just because you are able to pretend it doesn't matter it doesn't mean that other people won't notice the gigantic lump of bigotry and stereotypes under that rug. Examples of good representations of minorities do need to be noticed, because there are still so many bad representations. If everyone just acts like it doesn't really matter then there's no reason for anyone to actually strive for good representations, because clearly no one cares one way or another.

We all want to see the day when a character like Lee is not unusual in media, but we aren't there yet, so we need to make sure people are reminded of that.

i think you miss understand, im not saying that it does not exist anymore and that it should not be talked about, ofc it still exist in most of the world and we all should work towards equality but what im talking about is not equality with races but people.

and im not saying that the guilt of the past no matter where you live is a bad thing, dont get me wrong it would be better if it never happened but fuck it im so bad at explaining myself in text form but hopefully you know what i mean

It's probably the 'is it an American thing' that set off that response. The US wasn't the only place that treated non-Whites like shit.

As for bringing this up, I think it's worth noting because look at video game protagonists. Very few are non-white or non-male. So making a protagonist in a video game a black man is certainly worth noting. As for the conversation following the notation I have no idea where it would go and real thoughtful conversation probably won't be done in an online forum. But noting this unique aspect of the game certainly seems like a fine thing to do.

Plus, and I know people mean the best when they say this, but saying 'I see the person not the color' doesn't equate to some progressive, non-racists rhetoric. One of the things I had to learn rather quickly as a mental health therapist who is a white male from a middle class family is that that attitude can be interpreted several different ways. I've had clients who would say that such a comment plays down culture and dumbs down the idiosyncrasies of a culture into a grey, dull mess. The reality is that we are all different from one another and all of our features, our past, our present, the cultures we identify with, our society, every aspect of ourselves play a key role in defining who we are. Race is a huge basis for the framework for many, many people. Saying "I don't see race' can often sound like 'I don't see a part of you'. And not everyone will take that comment that way. Everyone is different. But it is important to realize that the sentiment "I don't see color" isn't necessarily a great thing to announce. It doesn't make a person sound more progressive or tolerant.

I see color and differences obviously, but the difference is it's not something I'm thinking about. If I see a cute Asian chick I'm looking at her because I like what I see. I will also look away from an Asian chick that isn't my type. It isn't really as complicated as you are making it out to be.

I'm going to make the assumption you are white. If your not then sorry dude. But if you are, like me, then that means that you and I can't decide whether or not race is important or whether we see it in others or not. I mean you can say that but it also sounds as if you aren't seeing a part of a person. Like, for example, I'm a Christian. Telling me that you don't see religion may be nice for you but to me that means that you aren't seeing a pivotal part of what makes me who I am.

I guess what I'm saying is that don't assume "I don't see color" means anything to anyone else but especially to non-whites because you can't assume how that other person sees color.

#176 Posted by golguin (3868 posts) -

@JasonR86 said:

@golguin said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Grillbar said:

@Zeik said:

@Grillbar said:

but is this an american thing since they live with the burden of the past

it seems to me that they care way more about praising and giving attention to a race instead of the person.

If you're suggesting race is an issue because everyone in America has guilt about slavery that's just incredibly ignorant. Race is an issue because there are still racial issues happening in modern society. It would be wonderful if race truly was not an issue and any person of any race was treated the same, but that's not actually how it is. Just pretending everything is equal and fair does not make everything equal and fair.

I get this impression that some people want to just sweep the issue of race under a rug and pretend like it's not there, but just because you are able to pretend it doesn't matter it doesn't mean that other people won't notice the gigantic lump of bigotry and stereotypes under that rug. Examples of good representations of minorities do need to be noticed, because there are still so many bad representations. If everyone just acts like it doesn't really matter then there's no reason for anyone to actually strive for good representations, because clearly no one cares one way or another.

We all want to see the day when a character like Lee is not unusual in media, but we aren't there yet, so we need to make sure people are reminded of that.

i think you miss understand, im not saying that it does not exist anymore and that it should not be talked about, ofc it still exist in most of the world and we all should work towards equality but what im talking about is not equality with races but people.

and im not saying that the guilt of the past no matter where you live is a bad thing, dont get me wrong it would be better if it never happened but fuck it im so bad at explaining myself in text form but hopefully you know what i mean

It's probably the 'is it an American thing' that set off that response. The US wasn't the only place that treated non-Whites like shit.

As for bringing this up, I think it's worth noting because look at video game protagonists. Very few are non-white or non-male. So making a protagonist in a video game a black man is certainly worth noting. As for the conversation following the notation I have no idea where it would go and real thoughtful conversation probably won't be done in an online forum. But noting this unique aspect of the game certainly seems like a fine thing to do.

Plus, and I know people mean the best when they say this, but saying 'I see the person not the color' doesn't equate to some progressive, non-racists rhetoric. One of the things I had to learn rather quickly as a mental health therapist who is a white male from a middle class family is that that attitude can be interpreted several different ways. I've had clients who would say that such a comment plays down culture and dumbs down the idiosyncrasies of a culture into a grey, dull mess. The reality is that we are all different from one another and all of our features, our past, our present, the cultures we identify with, our society, every aspect of ourselves play a key role in defining who we are. Race is a huge basis for the framework for many, many people. Saying "I don't see race' can often sound like 'I don't see a part of you'. And not everyone will take that comment that way. Everyone is different. But it is important to realize that the sentiment "I don't see color" isn't necessarily a great thing to announce. It doesn't make a person sound more progressive or tolerant.

I see color and differences obviously, but the difference is it's not something I'm thinking about. If I see a cute Asian chick I'm looking at her because I like what I see. I will also look away from an Asian chick that isn't my type. It isn't really as complicated as you are making it out to be.

I'm going to make the assumption you are white. If your not then sorry dude. But if you are, like me, then that means that you and I can't decide whether or not race is important or whether we see it in others or not. I mean you can say that but it also sounds as if you aren't seeing a part of a person. Like, for example, I'm a Christian. Telling me that you don't see religion may be nice for you but to me that means that you aren't seeing a pivotal part of what makes me who I am.

I guess what I'm saying is that don't assume "I don't see color" means anything to anyone else but especially to non-whites because you can't assume how that other person sees color.

Both my parents were born in Mexico. They came to the US and I was born in California. I was exposed to more types of people in college and I particularly liked how girls from different cultures and family backgrounds weren't like the girls I had come to know in high school. I'm aware of the differences because it's what I find attractive, but I'm not too overly concerned about their culture in particular to turn me off. I just don't care if the girl is Korean or Vietnamese although they swear they can tell the difference. Experience has shown me they can't on first glance.

#177 Posted by l4wd0g (1926 posts) -

maybe you should just call him Lee Everett, because who cares about the color his skin. It's his character that defines him not his race.

#178 Posted by Kyreo (4600 posts) -

@mellotronrules said:

yeah- this is one of the unsung triumphs of this game. it isn't the first game to feature a non-white character, but it's the first i can think of that doesn't underscore that fact either. it just is, and that's the way it should be.

Like... the only time it is ever acknowledged is that one "Urban" line from Kenny and even then it is more of a peek into Kenny's character than it is a degrading comment on Lee. As you said, it just IS.

#179 Posted by JasonR86 (9651 posts) -

@Kyreo said:

@mellotronrules said:

yeah- this is one of the unsung triumphs of this game. it isn't the first game to feature a non-white character, but it's the first i can think of that doesn't underscore that fact either. it just is, and that's the way it should be.

Like... the only time it is ever acknowledged is that one "Urban" line from Kenny and even then it is more of a peek into Kenny's character than it is a degrading comment on Lee. As you said, it just IS.

That's what makes it something to applaud the team for. The characters and the world were so well made that not only did we care about them (look how many people were freaking out about Clem in episode 5) but they were just so normal and straightforward. They were life-like. That simply doesn't happen in games and it is honestly rare in other mediums. But here it worked beautifully. Making the main protagonist black makes this even more of a triumph because, despite what has been said in this thread, the world isn't colorblind and race does matter. Stereotypes are everywhere assumptions are made about people based on race, orientation, physique, etc. all the time. But we appreciated the characters that were created so much as characters and not caricatures that we looked at Lee as Lee and, likewise, Clem as Clem and not just a helpless little girl. That's phenomenal work that should be applauded.

#180 Edited by Orbitz89 (229 posts) -

@JZ: Kratos is voiced by a black actor, but in the game he's just your average roman warrior.. from Sparta. He certainly didn't look black in any of the cutscenes that show him before he got those ashes thrown on him. He looked pretty white.. maybe tanned, but still very much Roman.

Edit: Greek.. I'm tired.

#181 Posted by Leptok (942 posts) -
@BSw

We need to celebrate it so much that "hey look, he's just like you, but BLACK!" becomes a cliche. Then it won't matter.


But even that seems like (pardon the term) whitewashing the issue. There are so many things to be explored with race, but for your average game it doesn't matter. There can be all sorts of culture and background mixtures that can be part of a game, but most games don't have to worry about it. The skin color of a character in Call of Duty doesn't mean much for.the story they tell.
#182 Posted by Dragon4234 (133 posts) -

Lee's not black. He's urban.

#183 Posted by BSw (252 posts) -

@Leptok said:

@BSw We need to celebrate it so much that "hey look, he's just like you, but BLACK!" becomes a cliche. Then it won't matter. But even that seems like (pardon the term) whitewashing the issue. There are so many things to be explored with race, but for your average game it doesn't matter. There can be all sorts of culture and background mixtures that can be part of a game, but most games don't have to worry about it. The skin color of a character in Call of Duty doesn't mean much for.the story they tell.

I understand your point, but no, we should not. All that happens when that is done is that you are emphasizing that there are people that still think that there are differences in value between people with visibly different skin colours (or, for that matter, sex, nationality, hair colour, etc.). Everybody is equal (at least at face value) and should be treated as such. So as long as you are emphasizing the fact there is a non-white that is a likeable main character (although you - and everybody in this thread - mean well), you are actually upholding this perceived (and delusional) difference in value instead of getting rid of it.

#184 Posted by BombKareshi (996 posts) -
@Maajin said:

He's not black, he's urban!

#185 Posted by Rasmoss (453 posts) -

@BSw said:

@Leptok said:

@BSw We need to celebrate it so much that "hey look, he's just like you, but BLACK!" becomes a cliche. Then it won't matter. But even that seems like (pardon the term) whitewashing the issue. There are so many things to be explored with race, but for your average game it doesn't matter. There can be all sorts of culture and background mixtures that can be part of a game, but most games don't have to worry about it. The skin color of a character in Call of Duty doesn't mean much for.the story they tell.

I understand your point, but no, we should not. All that happens when that is done is that you are emphasizing that there are people that still think that there are differences in value between people with visibly different skin colours (or, for that matter, sex, nationality, hair colour, etc.). Everybody is equal (at least at face value) and should be treated as such. So as long as you are emphasizing the fact there is a non-white that is a likeable main character (although you - and everybody in this thread - mean well), you are actually upholding this perceived (and delusional) difference in value instead of getting rid of it.

Did you also point out that people were being silly when they observed that Obama is the first black president?

#186 Posted by bigstrat2003 (64 posts) -

@Rasmoss said:

Did you also point out that people were being silly when they observed that Obama is the first black president?

I did, actually. I felt (and still feel) that celebrating Obama's presidency because he is black shows how far we have not come as a society. If we truly had risen above the racism of the past, we would have not noticed it at all, because he would be just another person - regardless of his skin color.

It's not exactly racism. I don't know what the word is for people's behavior there. But it's not healthy, either, because it shows that they can't look past skin color (regardless of how benign their reasons are).

#187 Posted by Rasmoss (453 posts) -

@bigstrat2003 said:

@Rasmoss said:

Did you also point out that people were being silly when they observed that Obama is the first black president?

I did, actually. I felt (and still feel) that celebrating Obama's presidency because he is black shows how far we have not come as a society. If we truly had risen above the racism of the past, we would have not noticed it at all, because he would be just another person - regardless of his skin color.

It's not exactly racism. I don't know what the word is for people's behavior there. But it's not healthy, either, because it shows that they can't look past skin color (regardless of how benign their reasons are).

But surely you also recognise that the fact that he is elected at all, show that you've come a long way as a society. Because him being elected was unthinkable 50 years ago.

#188 Posted by ShadowSkill11 (1783 posts) -

@VisariLoyalist said:

Is there a concept page for black main character? Or is that too racist to exist as a thing? hrm...

The concept itself is fine. The problem is most of the characters I can think of are pretty freaking racist.

#189 Edited by Zeik (2337 posts) -

@bigstrat2003 said:

@Rasmoss said:

Did you also point out that people were being silly when they observed that Obama is the first black president?

I did, actually. I felt (and still feel) that celebrating Obama's presidency because he is black shows how far we have not come as a society. If we truly had risen above the racism of the past, we would have not noticed it at all, because he would be just another person - regardless of his skin color.

Of course we haven't risen above racism, did you not notice all the blatantly racist remarks that have been made ever since he campaigned for presidency? It's precisely because we have not risen above racism that the fact that he's the first black president is notable and meaningful. If we just pretend like it doesn't matter it won't stop racists from being racist, it just means the only conversations on the issue out there are racist ones.

It's like saying nobody should have payed attention to the civil rights movement because we already abolished slavery. We have not solved the issue of racism, it's not an issue that just goes away, it's in a constant state of progress. The fact that Lee is a good example of a black character may not be a huge step forward on it's own, but it's still a step forward, and we should let it be known that it's a step forward so that they continue to move forward, instead of simply stagnating by pretending it's not an issue anymore and we should stop caring. You don't make progress by ignoring an issue.

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#190 Edited by mellotronrules (1179 posts) -

@bigstrat2003 said:

@Rasmoss said:

Did you also point out that people were being silly when they observed that Obama is the first black president?

I did, actually. I felt (and still feel) that celebrating Obama's presidency because he is black shows how far we have not come as a society.

i'm glad someone brought the obama example up, because i think it's pretty appropriate. everyone arguing 'let's celebrate lee and/or obama by not' -you do realize that's the very opposite of the world 'celebrate,' yeah? it's like saying 'let's celebrate your birthday by not observing it.' i understand where you're coming from, and in an ideal world (where i think we'd all want to live), race would be a non-issue. but that isn't the planet we're living on, and humans haven't achieved that utopia. we're moving forward, but it isn't by ignoring pervasive issues.

and regarding the whole 'i don't see race or gender, so none of this special attention is relevant to me.' to reiterate what i stated earlier- that's great, and while i do believe you do not allow things like race or gender to inform your assessment of individuals (thereby making you a non-racist)- EVERYONE sees color and gender, and makes assumptions about sexuality, i don't care who you are. it's human nature- it doesn't make you a racist, and pretending that 'race' as a concept doesn't exist not only denies that there's a on-going problem, but it also excludes any discussion on the matter. which is entirely self-defeating and unproductive.

and let's be real- if you're in a position to claim 'i don't see race or gender,' it's probably because you haven't run head-on into being negatively defined in that way. i might be wrong, but i don't think anyone would willfully choose to be first identified by their gender and/or ethnicity before being a human with a personality of their own. these are identities forced on people by society, whether you see them or not.

@Zeik said:

It's like saying nobody should have payed attention to the civil rights movement because we already abolished slavery.

amen. clearly we should ignore the history chapter of slavery and segregation- because we, as a people, have moved past it.

#191 Posted by zerostasis (15 posts) -

@mellotronrules said:

@bigstrat2003 said:

@Rasmoss said:

Did you also point out that people were being silly when they observed that Obama is the first black president?

I did, actually. I felt (and still feel) that celebrating Obama's presidency because he is black shows how far we have not come as a society.

i'm glad someone brought the obama example up, because i think it's pretty appropriate. everyone arguing 'let's celebrate lee and/or obama by not' -you do realize that's the very opposite of the world 'celebrate,' yeah? it's like saying 'let's celebrate your birthday by not observing it.' i understand where you're coming from, and in an ideal world (where i think we'd all want to live), race would be a non-issue. but that isn't the planet we're living on, and humans haven't achieved that utopia. we're moving forward, but it isn't by ignoring pervasive issues.

and regarding the whole 'i don't see race or gender, so none of this special attention is relevant to me.' to reiterate what i stated earlier- that's great, and while i do believe you do not allow things like race or gender to inform your assessment of individuals (thereby making you a non-racist)- EVERYONE sees color and gender, and makes assumptions about sexuality, i don't care who you are. it's human nature- it doesn't make you a racist, and pretending that 'race' as a concept doesn't exist not only denies that there's a on-going problem, but it also excludes any discussion on the matter. which is entirely self-defeating and unproductive.

and let's be real- if you're in a position to claim 'i don't see race or gender,' it's probably because you haven't run head-on into being negatively defined in that way. i might be wrong, but i don't think anyone would willfully choose to be first identified by their gender and/or ethnicity before being a human with a personality of their own. these are identities forced on people by society, whether you see them or not.

I can agree with the fact that ignoring the issue concerning racisim and other similar issues is not a good way to promote non-racism in the society. As much as it hurts it has to be pointed out at the expense of being called stupid and inattentive to our sociatal issues. But there should also be a limit over this 'celebration' thing. 'Over-celebrating' imho is just someone bandwagoning on the celebration/pointing-out without even understanding the implications and value of the 'celebration'. Either way at some point all this issue must be solved. And at the end of it all no matter what happens in-between races should just be like two children playing in a sandbox, in a local park, without a care in the world.

#192 Posted by mellotronrules (1179 posts) -

@zerostasis said:

But there should also be a limit over this 'celebration' thing.

absolutely. there is a limit to this way of thinking, and this recognition cannot persist in perpetuity- that means attitudes haven't changed, and we've failed. but that's the challenge- negotiating the middle-ground between "there is no problem", and "there forever will be a problem."

#193 Posted by DJJoeJoe (1323 posts) -

A lot of people expect you to tackle issues faced by the race if you feature it in a game, there's a few reviews that pick on AC3 for 'not going far enough' with Connor by making him only half native american... I imagine this scares off creatives from using none white PCs because they don't want to deal with that shit. The proper way should of course be to use whatever the heck fits best in the world you're creating in the game, and damn the critics or anyone saying you need to tackle an issue about the characters race. AC3 is also devoid of slaves as well, apparently for similar reasons. Can't have these things without the expectation to tackle the issues... at some point shouldn't we just stop caring and do whatever? Tackle an issue when someone is racist, not when a race other than white is featured, people can soap box at any time and should be demanded to do so every time there's potential to do so.

Isn't america full of more none-white people than white people now anyways? Why aren't games representing that? I guess white dominance is still 'thought' of as the majority?

I just want to play video games.

#194 Posted by Hunter5024 (5600 posts) -

If it was actually a contributing factor to why his character or role in the story were interesting than I would say that it was more of a triumph, but as it stands Lee could've been white, middle-eastern, or an Eskimo and it really wouldn't have made a difference (other than that funny urban line from episode 2). To me the race of a character only matters as far as the story potential it contains, and because they didn't capitalize on it, I don't really see whats cool about it. I've only beat the first 3 episodes, so maybe it begins to play a bigger role in the rest of the season, but so far Lee's just an awesome character whose race is pretty trivial, and that's something a lot of games have already accomplished.

#195 Posted by RobotHamster (4171 posts) -

What about a Hispanic protagonist huh??

#196 Posted by Zeik (2337 posts) -

@Hunter5024 said:

If it was actually a contributing factor to why his character or role in the story were interesting than I would say that it was more of a triumph, but as it stands Lee could've been white, middle-eastern, or an Eskimo and it really wouldn't have made a difference (other than that funny urban line from episode 2). To me the race of a character only matters as far as the story potential it contains, and because they didn't capitalize on it, I don't really see whats cool about it. I've only beat the first 3 episodes, so maybe it begins to play a bigger role in the rest of the season, but so far Lee's just an awesome character whose race is pretty trivial, and that's something a lot of games have already accomplished.

I agree to an extent, but I think the reason Lee is worth noting is precisely because they don't feel the need to play up the race angle all the time. Too many games and media feel like they to make a point of letting the viewer know that they totally have a non-white character on screen. They can't just be another guy in the group, they have to be "the black guy". Writers shouldn't feel like the only reason to put a non-white character in a story is if it's a significant plot point.

Besides, how many of those other "awesome characters" are not white? Trivial or not, awesome black characters are still pretty rare.

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