I was thinking about how much more connected and emotionally involved I was with The Walking Dead than with Heavy Rain.

David Cage has made his project to show that you can have deeper emotional connections with game characters. But in spite of him loudly touting himself as a pioneer of this kind of storytelling, along comes The Walking Dead and quietly completely surpasses him. I was thinking about what that was. And to me, the answer is this: Simply better writing.

I cared way more about Clementine than the kids in Heavy Rain. I cared way more about Lee than I did about Ethan Mars. And this just goes to show that you can invent all sorts of fancy facial capture systems and inventive new gameplay, but if you can't write characters to properly connect to, it doesn't matter much. I'm interested to see if Cage can respond with Beyond - 2 Souls, but for now I'm looking forward to The Walking Dead Season 2.

What do you guys think?

The Walking Dead manages to stick with just the one character's perspective and still be interesting. I didn't like how Heavy Rain had me play as different characters. Its interesting. The Walking Dead episodes are all in all a short experience, but it shows that a game doesn't have to drag on to be a memorable experience.

A bit harsh but you might be onto something. I really enjoyed Heavy Rain but the characters where just written in such a way that they weren't relate able, Walking Dead hit it out of the park

My first reaction to this was "Man, but Heavy Rain and The Walking Dead are totally different games!..."

but....... now that I think about it.. they are pretty similar, aren't they?

Both games were among my favorites the year they came out, and yes The Walking Dead surpasses it in most ways, but at the same time I don't think that game could have been made if Heavy Rain hadn't implemented a lot of those ideas first. It's kind of unfair to dismiss the accomplishments of an older game simply because the new one's better.

I was more emotionally engaged in Asura's Wrath then i was by anything Cage ever did. Not to mention it was actually fun to play, I guess Cage feels we will be more attached to characters by doing everyday tasks as them, when it actually just makes us hate them because they can't walk up some stairs.

I'm only comparing HR with AW because they are sort of the same type of game. Honestly there are a ton of games that i feel have better characters and are more emotionally engaging then Cage games.

David Cage doesn't play games,

Doesn't have enough creepy sex scenes for David Cage's taste

@Hunter5024 said:

Both games were among my favorites the year they came out, and yes The Walking Dead surpasses it in most ways, but at the same time I don't think that game could have been made if Heavy Rain hadn't implemented a lot of those ideas first. It's kind of unfair to dismiss the accomplishments of an older game simply because the new one's better.

That is a good point, I guess. The Walking Dead does draw inspiration from Fahrenheit and Heavy Rain. My point is also mostly, that we have all the tools we need NOW to create an emotionally engaging experience, all the stuff about facial capture and digital actors is removing the focus from where it should be.

I haven't played Heavy Rain but I watched a full LP of it and found the story laughable, between the bizarre ARI stuff, some questionable voice acting and shameless, emotionally exploitative moments one after another (interactive stripping, forced self-mutilation). TWD managed to feature the loss of body parts without it feeling exploitative at all. I also feel like TWD can be watched as an uninvolved observer and still be deeply emotionally affecting. Although I played TWD right through myself, I also watched a live stream of it afterwards and even people who hadn't played the game were talking about getting choked up. Since both games are essentially all about the story, I think it's fair to say that creatively one is a failure and the other is a massive success.

My only experience with David Cage is Heavy Rain and bar from a few plot annoyances and accents I thought it was incredible. I'd agree with you though with The Walking Dead having stronger characters but I would say Heavy Rain has the better world. The Walking Dead is zombies, which I'm personally a little fatigued with, while Heavy Rain had this on the edge of futuristic vibe to it, especially with the ARI sections.

His next project seems to be addressing the character issue. Beyond Two Souls has Ellen Page and say what you will about her acting history she is a more than capable actor and appears, from what we've seen, to have lent something unique to the project.

I think Heavy Rain is about malleability of plot, Walking Dead is about malleability of protagonist. The characters in Heavy Rain are who they are, but the plot can change based on player input. The plot in Walking Dead is what it is, but the protagonist can change based on player input.

Walking Dead has more in common with Mass Effect than it does Heavy Rain.

@Laivasse said:

I haven't played Heavy Rain but I watched a full LP of it and found the story laughable, between the bizarre ARI stuff, some questionable voice acting and shameless, emotionally exploitative moments one after another (interactive stripping, forced self-mutilation). TWD managed to feature the loss of body parts without it feeling exploitative at all. I also feel like TWD can be watched as an uninvolved observer and still be deeply emotionally affecting. Although I played TWD right through myself, I also watched a live stream of it afterwards and even people who hadn't played the game were talking about getting choked up. Since both games are essentially all about the story, I think it's fair to say that creatively one is a failure and the other is a massive success.

Well put. I feel a lot of the problems with Heavy Rain was that the characters were very shallow and could easily be summed up: Grief-stricken dad. Hooker with at heart of gold. Private snoop. The Walking Dead characters are for the most part much more complex characters and constantly reveal new sides of themselves that forces you to change your perspective.

@Brodehouse said:

I think Heavy Rain is about malleability of plot, Walking Dead is about malleability of protagonist. The characters in Heavy Rain are who they are, but the plot can change based on player input. The plot in Walking Dead is what it is, but the protagonist can change based on player input. Walking Dead has more in common with Mass Effect than it does Heavy Rain.

That's probably the best way to look at it. Although I'd go even further to say that The Walking Dead enables change for its entire cast based on player input.

It is arguably the most character driven narrative I've seen in a game.

I think the voice acting plays a huge part in this. Heavy Rain's voice acting was stiff and awkward throughout.

Jason!!!

Yeah, but how many times can you pee in The Walking Dead, HMMMMM??!?!?

Point: Cage.

David's a hack that created a broken story with Heavy Rain. The guy lives in a fantasy world when he works on games. I honestly hate this comparison as Cage can only dream

The 2 main things in favor of TWD in this comparison are:

1 - Focusing on only one protagonist and his quest to protect Clementine.

2 - Having very little controls over how the story progresses.

It's a lot easier to write more relatable characters when you are with them all the way through. It's also a lot easier to write a more functional story if you can hardly ever deviate from the intended path.

The scope of Heavy Rain if far greater and more ambitious than what TWD tried to do. TWD succeeds better at what it's trying to do but it's not trying to do that much. Heavy Rain tried to do too much and fell flat on some occasions.

@TeflonBilly said:

Doesn't have enough creepy sex scenes for David Cage's taste

And that is why it's not GOTY. There is totally an Omid and Christa backstory that would allow for some shower scenes

@Rasmoss said:

David Cage has made his project to show that you can have deeper emotional connections with game characters. But in spite of him loudly touting himself as a pioneer of this kind of storytelling, along comes The Walking Dead and quietly completely surpasses him. I was thinking about what that was. And to me, the answer is this: Simply better writing.

That's pretty much it as far as I can see.

I appreciate that David Cage wants to push for deeper, higher quality writing in videogames but Quantum Dream seems to forget what might be the most important step in this process: HIRING GOOD WRITERS.

@MildMolasses said:

@TeflonBilly said:

Doesn't have enough creepy sex scenes for David Cage's taste

And that is why it's not GOTY. There is totally an Omid and Christa backstory that would allow for some shower scenes

...what the hell was the backstory?

I mean, I can infer it from what we saw: they were together, she was/is pregnant (or lost a baby).

I'm pretty sure I exhausted all dialogue options, but this wasn't really covered. Lee makes an off-hand remark near the end with regard to her pregnancy, as if we'd had a previous discussion about it, but that conversation never actually transpired.

OT: as others have said, I don't think the comparison is entirely fair/accurate - given the multiple character v single character and plot shaping v character shaping differences.

All said, I loved both of them. Heavy Rain was one of my favourite games in a very strong year, and The Walking Dead is probably my GOTY.

Completely agree. And not to drag the dead horse back in the room, but I'd say the same for Mass Effect, which similarly trumpeted its groundbreaking story mechanics. I enjoyed Heavy Rain and ME very much, but neither pulled me in the way The Walking Dead did. It does just come down to better, more focused writing. I don't think gaming is going to fundamentally change how stories are told, which is the claim you hear from developers, I think gaming just needs to learn how to properly harness it, which Walking Dead did and then some.

Telltale humbled Cage.

Love this. Screw David Cage and his boring games.

I hate Heavy Rain. It was such an enourmous waste of potential. The shitty voice acting, the shitty writing, the enourmous plotholes. Just UGH! Much like Fahrenheit I thought it started out real good, hell I even felt like I was connecting with Shaun after our time together on the playground and thought this game might strike up an emotional connection. However, the more the game progressed, the more I hated everything about it. At least Fahrenheit had a definitive jumping the shark moment. Heavy Rain was just a slow downward spiral.

Press X to Clementine.

But seriously, I enjoyed Heavy Rain as an experience, but it's not even in the same league as The Walking Dead. Heavy Rain's story just didn't interest me much, whereas The Walking Dead had me on the edge of my seat for episode, engaged, emotionally invested and caring about the characters. I never gave a shit about Ethan or Scott or anyone else in Heavy Rain.

@Brodehouse said:

I think Heavy Rain is about malleability of plot, Walking Dead is about malleability of protagonist. The characters in Heavy Rain are who they are, but the plot can change based on player input. The plot in Walking Dead is what it is, but the protagonist can change based on player input. Walking Dead has more in common with Mass Effect than it does Heavy Rain.

But can you seperate characters from plot? To me a good narrative flows from the characters. Lee is a man with a troubled past who must give up his hope for finding a normal life for Clementine and prepare her for a grim future. Clementine is a child who must face that she has to give up her childhood to face a new reality. The story flows naturally from that, and the ending is the natural conclusion of their character arcs. In David Cage games, I couldn't tell you what most of the characters were there to accomplish, and that leads to his stories having hackneyed plot twists and final acts.

Heavy Rain had its moments for me, so I can't write it off (or Cage's work in general) as entirely bad, more just flawed, but yes, The Walking Dead is much, much better than anything David Cge has produced. The Walking Dead might not exist as we know it without Quantic Dreams' efforts, though.

I think David Cage's games were a bit more ambitious when he did Farenheit and Heavy Rain, there wasn't really many games like those when they were released. I still think Heavy Rain is better at keeping track of past decisions and having multiple branching paths because if you play Walking Dead more than once, you just end up finding out the story is a bit more linear than you expect. But Walking Dead definitely has a better emotional connection with the player due to some better and focused storytelling.

I wonder if the success of The Walking Dead is going to influence how Beyond: Two Souls is turning out. I never thought people felt so strongly against Heavy Rain, this thread makes me kind of glad I didn't play too much of it. I guess I won't be going back.

@GetEveryone: Well most people don't get a backstory, but what we know is that they are a couple and she's pregnant. Obviously I was just making a joke about showing how she got pregnant

As for the weird way it's handled in the game, it almost seems like they forgot to include a scene or a dialogue choice. But the way it just goes from being hinted at, to mentioned by another character without any odd reaction from her seems very weird. Even her just saying "So you know?" after Lee mentioned the 'walking for two' bit would have done the trick. But there was never a part leading up that that where she confirmed it, which is what makes Lee's comment seem so out of left field, even if it is really obvious that she is in fact pregnant.

@Kerned said:

Press X to Clementine..

haha

@TeflonBilly said:

I hate Heavy Rain. It was such an enourmous waste of potential. The shitty voice acting, the shitty writing, the enourmous plotholes.

I kind of feel like Heavy Rain set the movement back as opposed to forward. When that game was released it felt like a lot of people's reactions were along the lines of "Well, if this is supposed to be as good as videogame writing gets maybe we shouldn't bother".

Fans of story-driven gaming should be very happy that The Walking Dead came along and showed everyone that not only is it possible, but it doesn't require years of development, millions of dollars, and cutting-edge technology.

@MildMolasses said:

@GetEveryone: Well most people don't get a backstory, but what we know is that they are a couple and she's pregnant. Obviously I was just making a joke about showing how she got pregnant

As for the weird way it's handled in the game, it almost seems like they forgot to include a scene or a dialogue choice. But the way it just goes from being hinted at, to mentioned by another character without any odd reaction from her seems very weird. Even her just saying "So you know?" after Lee mentioned the 'walking for two' bit would have done the trick. But there was never a part leading up that that where she confirmed it, which is what makes Lee's comment seem so out of left field, even if it is really obvious that she is in fact pregnant.

Ha! No, I knew you were joking, I just took it as an opportunity to vent.

I shouldn't have said backstory, I just meant fleshed out their actual story. I mean, like you say, the pregnancy aspect was played very obviously and early on. From their introduction where they regard Clem and discuss children and give each other these constant knowing looks, to Christa vomiting and so on. The path they took with it didn't even feel lazy - just totally underdeveloped. As if they'd completely forgotten they'd been building this side-story and left it to the wayside during production, and the only means of rectifying it was a single line - with absolutely no acknowledgement from Christa. Very strange, indeed.

Well, The Walking Dead is written by people who can actually write, while David Cage can only write half a decent story, the other half he writes after a cocktail of LSD, Cocaine and any other drugs that makes you hallucinate

David Cage wishes he could tell a good story period.

It's because Clementine and Lee seem like real people, and none of the Heavy Rain characters do.

@Rasmoss said:

@Brodehouse said:

I think Heavy Rain is about malleability of plot, Walking Dead is about malleability of protagonist. The characters in Heavy Rain are who they are, but the plot can change based on player input. The plot in Walking Dead is what it is, but the protagonist can change based on player input. Walking Dead has more in common with Mass Effect than it does Heavy Rain.

But can you seperate characters from plot? To me a good narrative flows from the characters. Lee is a man with a troubled past who must give up his hope for finding a normal life for Clementine and prepare her for a grim future. Clementine is a child who must face that she has to give up her childhood to face a new reality. The story flows naturally from that, and the ending is the natural conclusion of their character arcs. In David Cage games, I couldn't tell you what most of the characters were there to accomplish, and that leads to his stories having hackneyed plot twists and final acts.

...? Who is separating anything from anything? Heavy Rain allows you to alter the plot, Walking Dead allows you to alter the core personality of Lee. Whether you like character-driven plot or event-driven has nothing to do with what I said.

And if you weren't sure about the character motivations in Heavy Rain I don't know what to tell you. It's not exactly the most complicated plot conceit.

@Brodehouse said:

@Rasmoss said:

@Brodehouse said:

I think Heavy Rain is about malleability of plot, Walking Dead is about malleability of protagonist. The characters in Heavy Rain are who they are, but the plot can change based on player input. The plot in Walking Dead is what it is, but the protagonist can change based on player input. Walking Dead has more in common with Mass Effect than it does Heavy Rain.

But can you seperate characters from plot? To me a good narrative flows from the characters. Lee is a man with a troubled past who must give up his hope for finding a normal life for Clementine and prepare her for a grim future. Clementine is a child who must face that she has to give up her childhood to face a new reality. The story flows naturally from that, and the ending is the natural conclusion of their character arcs. In David Cage games, I couldn't tell you what most of the characters were there to accomplish, and that leads to his stories having hackneyed plot twists and final acts.

...? Who is separating anything from anything? Heavy Rain allows you to alter the plot, Walking Dead allows you to alter the core personality of Lee. Whether you like character-driven plot or event-driven has nothing to do with what I said.

And if you weren't sure about the character motivations in Heavy Rain I don't know what to tell you. It's not exactly the most complicated plot conceit.

Woah there, duder, we're just having a discussion, no need to be snippy.

What's the point of Shelby, for instance, in Heavy Rain? He is just there to provide a plot twist. A plot twist that seems completely cheap because it is unearned and against his character as we've come to know it.

@Rasmoss said:

@Brodehouse said:

@Rasmoss said:

@Brodehouse said:

I think Heavy Rain is about malleability of plot, Walking Dead is about malleability of protagonist. The characters in Heavy Rain are who they are, but the plot can change based on player input. The plot in Walking Dead is what it is, but the protagonist can change based on player input. Walking Dead has more in common with Mass Effect than it does Heavy Rain.

But can you seperate characters from plot? To me a good narrative flows from the characters. Lee is a man with a troubled past who must give up his hope for finding a normal life for Clementine and prepare her for a grim future. Clementine is a child who must face that she has to give up her childhood to face a new reality. The story flows naturally from that, and the ending is the natural conclusion of their character arcs. In David Cage games, I couldn't tell you what most of the characters were there to accomplish, and that leads to his stories having hackneyed plot twists and final acts.

...? Who is separating anything from anything? Heavy Rain allows you to alter the plot, Walking Dead allows you to alter the core personality of Lee. Whether you like character-driven plot or event-driven has nothing to do with what I said.

And if you weren't sure about the character motivations in Heavy Rain I don't know what to tell you. It's not exactly the most complicated plot conceit.

Woah there, duder, we're just having a discussion, no need to be snippy.

What's the point of Shelby, for instance, in Heavy Rain? He is just there to provide a plot twist. A plot twist that seems completely cheap because it is unearned and against his character as we've come to know it.

No, the Shelby arc is in fact the strongest part of that game. It is absolutely not against his character, and all the 'choices' you are set up to make actually all tie into his characterization. Of all the character storylines, his is easily the most 'earned'. I think you might want to double down and rethink it a bit more.

The wallbanger in Heavy Rain is Ethan's blackouts. They're a complete red herring with absolutely no justification that completely brings that game down.

@Brodehouse said:

@Rasmoss said:

@Brodehouse said:

@Rasmoss said:

@Brodehouse said:

I think Heavy Rain is about malleability of plot, Walking Dead is about malleability of protagonist. The characters in Heavy Rain are who they are, but the plot can change based on player input. The plot in Walking Dead is what it is, but the protagonist can change based on player input. Walking Dead has more in common with Mass Effect than it does Heavy Rain.

But can you seperate characters from plot? To me a good narrative flows from the characters. Lee is a man with a troubled past who must give up his hope for finding a normal life for Clementine and prepare her for a grim future. Clementine is a child who must face that she has to give up her childhood to face a new reality. The story flows naturally from that, and the ending is the natural conclusion of their character arcs. In David Cage games, I couldn't tell you what most of the characters were there to accomplish, and that leads to his stories having hackneyed plot twists and final acts.

...? Who is separating anything from anything? Heavy Rain allows you to alter the plot, Walking Dead allows you to alter the core personality of Lee. Whether you like character-driven plot or event-driven has nothing to do with what I said.

And if you weren't sure about the character motivations in Heavy Rain I don't know what to tell you. It's not exactly the most complicated plot conceit.

Woah there, duder, we're just having a discussion, no need to be snippy.

What's the point of Shelby, for instance, in Heavy Rain? He is just there to provide a plot twist. A plot twist that seems completely cheap because it is unearned and against his character as we've come to know it.

No, the Shelby arc is in fact the strongest part of that game. It is absolutely not against his character, and all the 'choices' you are set up to make actually all tie into his characterization. Of all the character storylines, his is easily the most 'earned'. I think you might want to double down and rethink it a bit more.

The wallbanger in Heavy Rain is Ethan's blackouts. They're a complete red herring with absolutely no justification that completely brings that game down.

It's been a long time since I've played it, so I can't argue the details, but that's how it seemed to me at the time. But, yeah, I remember being miffed about the blackouts too.

@Brodehouse said:

No, the Shelby arc is in fact the strongest part of that game. It is absolutely not against his character, and all the 'choices' you are set up to make actually all tie into his characterization. Of all the character storylines, his is easily the most 'earned'. I think you might want to double down and rethink it a bit more.

The wallbanger in Heavy Rain is Ethan's blackouts. They're a complete red herring with absolutely no justification that completely brings that game down.

The blackouts were most likely a result of injuries Ethan sustained when he was hit by a car, admittedly the game probably should have mentioned something along those lines with the doctor, but at least there's some interpretation that justifies the gaps in his memory. Holding an origami figure after one of the blackouts however is still pretty asinine.

@MEATBALL said:

Heavy Rain had its moments for me, so I can't write it off (or Cage's work in general) as entirely bad, more just flawed, but yes, The Walking Dead is much, much better than anything David Cge has produced. The Walking Dead might not exist as we know it without Quantic Dreams' efforts, though.

This. Finally some logical calculated response to a thread that was mostly "lets shit on Cage's work". Also lets not forget that Telltail had it's mishaps too (Back to the Future and Jurassic Park anyone) and because the nature of their games they have much quicker iteration cycle then Quantic Dreams. I'm glad Telltail found it's stride but lets not forget what it took for them to get to this point.

When talking about David Cage's writing, I often think about the minutiae and how a single situation can play out (potentially outside of context). I also believe he does this when writing himself, hence why a lot of the situations and scenes he writes don't link well with each other (plot holes etcetera).

That aside, The Walking Dead has some solid writing and would certainly be higher up a list I'd make than Heavy Rain or Fahrenheit, but there are concessions and flaws in Telltale's game too; mainly genre expectancies more than anything.

Heavy Rain was overly ambitious, and thus didn't live up to everything it promised.

Walking Dead has more focus, is kinda like Heavy Rain on a smaller scale. That's why it mostly succeeds.

This is an odd and seemingly unnecessary comparison.

I feel like Telltale would still be making their classic-style adventure games if it wasn't for games like Heavy Rain, and I'm glad they chose to try something new for them cause those were getting old. You could see them experimenting with Jurassic Park and nailing it here.

@Hunter5024 said:

The blackouts were most likely a result of injuries Ethan sustained when he was hit by a car, admittedly the game probably should have mentioned something along those lines with the doctor, but at least there's some interpretation that justifies the gaps in his memory. Holding an origami figure after one of the blackouts however is still pretty asinine.

Actually, Ethan was supposed to form a psychic connection with the killer and he would have the blackouts whenever a crime was committed, but it was ultimately scrapped - mostly because it introduced a paranormal element that added nothing to the story (ARI, anyone?). But no one felt like reworking the rest of the plot to accommodate this change, so it was left in, because everyone loves gaping plot holes.

Hell, there was a lot of shit they simply cut because they felt it would "ruin the pacing": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxpdGB6Gbac

I think TWD also benefits from having time between episodes (or it did for me) because it allowed the player to have a lot of space between seeing them and it had more time to ferment. I would probably agree that TWD is stronger, but it doesn't seem like HR set the movement back as was stated earlier. Yeah the voice acting was a bummer at times for side characters (I didn't like the kids, but I felt like the hate was way overblown), but they both do a good job of making you feel like your choices do matter even if they don't.

Seems like HR may have more lasting impact on the resolution than TWD do. Both could learn from one another.

@Rasmoss said:

@Laivasse said:

I haven't played Heavy Rain but I watched a full LP of it and found the story laughable, between the bizarre ARI stuff, some questionable voice acting and shameless, emotionally exploitative moments one after another (interactive stripping, forced self-mutilation). TWD managed to feature the loss of body parts without it feeling exploitative at all. I also feel like TWD can be watched as an uninvolved observer and still be deeply emotionally affecting. Although I played TWD right through myself, I also watched a live stream of it afterwards and even people who hadn't played the game were talking about getting choked up. Since both games are essentially all about the story, I think it's fair to say that creatively one is a failure and the other is a massive success.

Well put. I feel a lot of the problems with Heavy Rain was that the characters were very shallow and could easily be summed up: Grief-stricken dad. Hooker with at heart of gold. Private snoop. The Walking Dead characters are for the most part much more complex characters and constantly reveal new sides of themselves that forces you to change your perspective.

Yeap.

Personally I would rather play Heavy Rain through 10+ times than play TWD once more. Not going to say more as anyone who has read my post history relating to TWD knows what I think of it.