I just read through a post on Reddit where an interesting quote from Polygon was being thrown around.

.... the world CD Projekt has created is oppressively misogynist. - Polygon

Now, on one hand I can see where they're coming from. I do see a lot of female NPCs treated like crap around the towns that I've visited so far. On the other, the world seems very much like a product of its time (or at the very least, the time it theoretically represents). I've also believed that The Witcher series has had some pretty strong female roles, especially in The Witcher 3 where there is a huge and diverse cast of female NPCs, not even including how awesome Ciri is.

In most story arcs, a lot of the females are simply people living out their lives or trying to get ahead of the hand dealt them.

Keira Metz, for instance, used me to life a curse cast over an island and then seduced me so I wouldn't interfere when she went to steal research from one of the mages that died there.

There was another story where a woman fell in love with her sister's husband, who also happened to be a werewolf. She tricked her sister to go out into the woods with her to see her husband transform, but he ended up ripping his own wife to shreds, unbeknownst to him.

I'm interested in hearing my fellow duder's thoughts and opinions on how The Witcher 3 handles its female characters and maybe some experiences you've had in game that lead you to that conclusion. Please keep the discussion on topic and don't use this as an avenue to get preachy about larger topics.

Edit: Since there is a bit of criticism solely aimed at the quote, please see this excerpt of the review posted by @jadegl

That said, the world CD Projekt has created is oppressively misogynist. In some ways, the game deals directly with this — characters acknowledge again and again that it's hard to be a woman there, that it's a place of violence and terror and that women must work harder to be recognized and respected.

Then it kills them, over and over. There are several monster types devoted to murdered and wronged women whom Geralt is frequently asked to destroy, and other villainous characters are shown torturing or even butchering women to show just how evil they are.

Full review for the interested

I pretty much got the same impression as you do. CDPR doesnt take a stance on irl politics. The Witcher world is just a generally shitty place in many ways and not just for women. There are rape, incest, slavery, racism, drugs etc. and its all kind of based on folklore which is a product of its time as you said.

There are plenty of strong women in the Witcher series, both good and bad ones. The latest one i came across was when i just finished up Witcher 2 to get into 3 and Brigida papebrock was a really cool character. It was a new quest added in the enhanced edition and i didnt know it was there but she started a surprisingly intriguing qestline which delved deeper into what happend to Foltest Children after his assassination.

It's a reflection of the real world, so yea it's misogynist in how women get treated and talked about by npcs in the game. The world is also racist, cruel, ugly and beautiful. Characters, male and female(human and non human) seem to be portrayed in a pretty realistic way in how they would try and survive in such a world.

I remember somebody made a post about how yen is introduced in the first scene, but then again it turns out that it was Garalts fantasy of her and when she is actually introduced she is waaaaay different.

Ahh the M word. Guaranteed few hundred thousand clicks right there. Personally, I feel it's thrown around so casually these days, it's lost all meaning.

I haven't played the game. Even if I had, I'm no authority, but from what I've seen of the Witcher's world, many characters of multiple genders get treated like shit. Watch the quick look. Most of it's some quest to off some demon that's arisen as the result of some slovenly, fat, drunk, MALE wife-beating asshole's abhorrent behavior. He beats his wife?!? That's misogynist!! *eyerollingemoticon*

I think they're done well enough. You have strong women, smart women, and everything in between. On the other hand there are women who are victimized and downtrodden (anyone who's found a specific whoreson will know.) I think the grayness of the world is reflected in a decent somewhat realistic way.

At the end of the day though, everyone has a certain threshold for what they can handle. Some will find the Witcher 3 to be overly mysogynist and others will find that to not be the case. I personally think there's a good mix of meek, strong, and nefarious characters of all genders and types.

@rethla: I played The Witcher 2 Enhanced Version and don't remember that at all. I need to go back and play through it again after I finish The Witcher 3.

One thing I noticed, that I thought was cool, was that most women aren't content just playing the victim. There is a lot of "vindication" through revenge going on in a lot of situations where Geralt isn't necessarily invited to play the hero but to clean up the mess.

The world is most certainly misognystic, racist, and shitty in general, so I can understand how it could be a turn off to some people (though it seems the Polygon editor enjoyed the game). Personally, I think they do a good job of sprinkling in characters that subvert certain gender specific tropes in an otherwise grim world. I smiled when Kiera basically told Geralt to shut the fuck up when he tried to "protect" her at the beginning of a boss fight.

CD Projeck has certainly come a long way since Witcher 1, where women were quite litterally objectified by being turned into collectable cards after you fucked them.

@rethla said:

They do if you go on forums about their game talking about how slavery is actually quite good.

On topic, the inclusion of strong, independent female characters in the game was somewhat undermined for me by the fact that the way they're dressed is only slightly removed from women in shitty 90s PC RPG cover art.

I guess CDPR have come a long way from the whole embarrassing sexy trading cards thing in the first game, though.

The world of the Witcher seems like a shitty place for everyone, men, women, elfs and dwarves everyone gets the short stick so..don't know what they are going on about.

Does some women get treated like absolute shit in the game ? Yes.

Does the game in any specifically target women ? No.

That's pretty much all there is to say about it. The game portrays people, people. The variety of characters is vast, for both genders, so picking out small examples here and there to make an argument is absurd.

I think the Witcher fails its own world in how they portray women. The game's universe is a man's world, which is totally fine in concept. I have no problem with that.

What I hate is that the "strong" women characters will have spotless skin, porn actresses' body and a sexual life akin to the best "friends-with-benefits" relationships you can think of. The game treats sexuality from our own world's standards but in kind of perfect, idealized way, whereas everything else in the world is dark and grimy and fucked-up.

I just think it does not make sense and ends up being lame. In the world, strong women would probably be as fucked up as Geralt is, filled with scars and would wear fucking practical clothes, not sexy clothes.

Ciri is halfway there, but the other major women characters felt out of place to me.

Haven't finished the game, so it might get better later, but it's how I feel right now.

@grtkbrandon: Its Roche path only, maybe you went down the Iorveth path becouse this quest is unmissable (you can turn it down if you want tho).

Based on what I've seen so far, the game has a bunch of interesting, well-rounded women characters, almost all of whom are sexualised in exceptionally awkward ways. It leads to situations where your first encounter with Yennefer — smart, funny and a compelling foil for Geralt — is just you talking to a bare ass. Then there's Ciri, a fierce and compassionate warrior, who inexplicably has her bra exposed in every scene. Perhaps most embarrassing of all is Keira Metz, a witty, devious and enigmatic supporting character with some outstanding dialogue who, for whatever reason, has at least one areola exposed at all times. It's all very creepy and distracting, and takes away from the game's actual sex scenes which are generally quite well done.

I dunno, I'm only about 30 hours in so maybe it gets better in that regard. At least it's a step up from the previous games!

Well if you referring to the mage women, they were all pretty aristocratic to begin with until the witch hunting events of this game. So battle scars and what not aren't that likely, plus i believe they have pretty good healing and transformation magic from what i gathered. Ciri is a witcher (or something like a witcher) as is Geralt so they have more battle scars. I want to say Ves had scars on her body as well but i may be misremembering that since she was a minor character. Not to mention Phillipa gets her eyes gouged out and also what can happen to Triss depending on choices in this game and the second etc.

@oursin_360: Aristocrats or not, it's obvious that some of those women are ladies of action, so the non-practical clothes and the spotless hair/body/look kinda still don't make sense to me.

Basically, my point is that how women are sexualized in the game does not fit the world. We can talk a lot about how sexist or not it is, but really my main issue it's that it just bend its own rules to add sexualization, which I personnaly find super lame.

The rest of the game is awesome, mind you.

I am not going to type a whole lot, besides!

I strongly feel that the world they created is not misogynistic. I would also say seeing that it still draws quite a from historical sources it would be accurate if it would.
My feeling is more some classes overbearing on some of the others.

Also, that pretty much feels like clickbait cause it is cause both are a hot topic.

For what it's worth, the sorceresses gain their perfect looks as a product of magic. For example, Yennefer used to be a hunchback. So their perfect skin isn't so much a coincidence as another tool in their arsenal to gain influence, and their attire is set to match.

Of course, having in world justifications for this creates its own problems. It doesn't explain why Ves looks and dresses the way she does either.

I get your point, but it fits the universe IMO. You've got to realize that some of these mages are centuries old as well(couldn't tell you who are how old but it's mentioned a few times), so the way they appear is how they want to appear which to me fits their personalities. The non mage female characters are depicted differently, so i think it all fits the universe.

The world IS full of misogyny.. Along with racism, homophobia, slavery, rape, murder, corruption, orphans, curses, monsters. poverty, greed, war, discrimination, evil, patricide, regicide and beards.

I love it.

I still haven't finished the game so my thoughts on Ciri are on hold. So far beyond the mages i met two women who were quite good examples and were able to succeed in a male dominated world like the witcher one (especially in their respective "fields"): Cerys and Joana the blacksmith. The first in my game became the queen of Skellige, she's praised by many characters for being smart, patient, wise but ruthless in pursuing her goals when she come to a decision, able to think strategically and evaluate things on a long term scale (something very rare in Skellige, you can see how the others act). The second get her amazing talent recognized and is able to overcome the difficulties caused by her gender (and race).

@fear_the_booboo: Mages cast illusions to hide their real appearances (Yen is something like 94). It's perfectly in line with the lore that they chose idealized and sexualized bodies, especially since they all go around courts and centers of power. If you want a strong one with scars and proper armor you just need to look at Cerys and you'll have a character more in line with your "likings"

Didn't know that, thank you for explaining. Obviously that might come with its own set of problems but I don't think I know enough about The Witcher's lore in general to have an informed opinion on it.

Haven't played any Witcher game myself, but your comment did bring to mind Gears 3 and how both Anya and Sam look all spotless & shiny in relation to the dishevelled and beaten appearances of Marcus and Co., which was unfortunate.

@fear_the_booboo: According to the books they make themselves look like that:

Unlike priestesses and druidesses, who only unwillingly took ugly or crippled girls, sorcerers took anyone who showed evidence of a predisposition. If the child passed the first years of training, magic entered into the equation - straightening and evening out legs, repairing bones which had badly knitted, patching harelips, removing scars, birthmarks and pox scars. The young sorceress would become attractive because the prestige of her profession demanded it. The result was pseudo-pretty women with the angry and cold eyes of ugly girls. Girls who couldn't forget their ugliness had been covered by the mask of magic only for the prestige of their profession.

Which seems like a bit of a cop out in my opinion, but there you go.

@turambar: Roche in their quest comments on Ves clothes. Of course that doesn't solve anything if you think it's an issue, but at least lets you know that the developers are very aware of her particular appearance

@yummylee: I love it when the clean faces mod comes pre-installed.

Im so tired of everyone trying to shove a political agenda into everything. It feels like every game someone comes back crying about how women were treated in a game. They seem to be very limited, knee jerk first impressions that blow everything about of proportion as well. Maybe if you feel persecuted playing a game, you just shouldnt play it. Move on to something else. The Witcher is a dark world. It runs the gambit in presenting that. If they took everything out that offended someone you would be left with flavorless garbage. The game is supposed to make you feel something. This helps to engage you, and immerse you in the world.

@grtkbrandon said:

I'm not especially far into the game yet, but something I've noticed that plays into this is how a lot of the more serious "evil spirits" in this game tend to arise as result of some kind of cruelness imposed upon women by men. Examples I've seen so far: Take the noonwraith in White Orchard, who was killed by a jealous man, or that the botchling is a result of a miscarriage that it is implied the Baron caused, or the plague maiden on Fyke Island who was either killed by bandits or some kind of terrible experiment. I'm probably not the one to unpack what this means, but I have to wonder if women are intrinsically tied with magic in the world of the Witcher, considering I have only heard of sorceresses and female witches. The men who have access to magic in this game, like Witchers and the pellar, seem to have to follow rituals or gradually inure their body to it (a la the Witcher training that 70% of boys don't survive). This is my first experience with the Witcher, so I have no idea if there are things that I'm missing or if previous entries have made everything I've been feeling out painfully obvious. It seems to me like it's more of a Game of Thrones situation - not egalitarianism like in Dragon Age, but women clearly have agency - than a world where women are just there to be helpless.

@john1912: The only knee jerking here is your own. Nobody's crying, nobody's complaining about how persecuted they are, people are just having a discussion about a game that you might not be interested in. Maybe if you're tired of discussions like this you shouldn't involve yourself. Move on to another thread.

@tafae: OT: the noonwraith in white orchard is not killed by a jealous man. She is killed by the local lord after insulting the dead son of the local lord for being gay. Basically the son of the lord and the hunter that helps you in the griffin hunt were lovers, they were discovered and the son killed himself. His father turned to alcohol becoming a mess. The noonwraith and a few others (including her husband/partner) went away to start a new settlement. The lord came to convince them to come back, she "comments" on his son's homosexuality, the lord loses his mind and slaughter them all. She becomes a wraith after that.

@tafae: Well its no easy task to become a Sorceress and many of them go insane if they dont learn to controll it. Its kind of the same deal as in Dragon age if you have played those games. There are both male and female mages.

Then you have the druids, the priests, the witchers and so on which all follow different magic schools.

I think the quickest way I can say it is: I think the characters are well written, the romances are well done - if a bit overly soppy - and the way Geralt interacts with women is pleasantly gentle and sensitive in comparison to most action hero dudes. I think they do a good job of giving women a variety of motives and emotional reactions.

With all that said, a lot of the design of the main female players seems to be designed with titilation in mind. I'm not sure that really represents a problem as long as everyone can just be open about that, really. I'd like to think that some of the ways Geralt is presented are for titilation as well, but not being attracted to men I find it harder to say I think - or at least I feel like it would be condescending to tell women they shouldn't be put off by Keira's areolae because they get to see Geralt's butt.

Really? Cuz OPs opening topic says different. .... the world CD Projekt has created is oppressively misogynist. - Polygon

I think there's plenty of room for diverse thought on the individual strength of the female characters in the Witcher games, but describing it as "oppressively misogynist" just seems outright untrue.

I dont get your point? Both Triss and Yennifer wear closed, practical cloth for the most part? The only instance Triss changes is when they have to go to a social event. Other than that Yennifer wears a long dress every time I saw her (well, besides the starting scene) and Triss pants. Keira clearly dresses more on the sexy side but that seems to fit her personality and motives (she obviously tries to influence Geralt). Ciri seems pretty tame for the most part, sure you can see her bra sometimes but honestly thats far from "sexualized". Cerys dresses like a warrior, nothing sexualized about her.

The only female character I saw that went a little far was the dream-mage.

[edit:] also, regarding your earlier post: female mages use magic to make themselves look pretty. If I had that tool as a male I sure as hell would not use it to look like a 80 old ugly guy, I probably would pick a young, attractive body. Which is what they did. There is nothing sexist or sexualized about woman that want to look good.

Point one, its gamut, not gambit.

Point two, the complaints are often laid out when the offensive materials are not used to further flesh out and contextualize the world, but rather being used to support certain modes of thinking that exist outside of the game. Sexism in a game does not arise when the game world itself is sexist, but rather the actions and reactions of characters within the world asks the player to view it as a positive in an out of character sense. As a result, it often breaks immersion and engagement as opposed to the opposite.

Point three, whether the Witcher 3 should be criticized for the misogynist nature of the world creates, and whether the game itself is in fact sexist are perfectly fine grounds for debate, but let us not pretend "just don't play it" is at all an adequate solution to problems of this type.

@john1912: Again, this topic isn't about knee jerk reactions or any overarching issues within the industry. It's simply about how you feel CDPR handles women in The Witcher 3. Any argument about Polygon's articles, specifically, should probably be addressed to them directly.

@rethla: It's been a few years since I've played the game so it's entirely possible that I just don't remember it. I chose Roche over Iorveth.

@john1912: Yes, really. If you can't differentiate between an analysis of a game's world with a view toward the creators' intent and "crying", you have a serious problem.

It's quite true though. The world within the game very much is misogynistic. The game however is not. The same can be said of Game of Thrones in fact, if we wish for another example.

The world they portray is a medieval one where women (and others) got treated like shit. There is nothing misogynistic about that, our real life medieval period was a lot worse than what we can see in the game.

I haven't thought much about how the women are portrayed on a character to character basis though, all the main characters seemed "alright" to me.. "Alright" in a Hollywood movie sort of way where all the main female characters are beautiful.

One thing that stood out to me though was the fact that the game is filled with naked female butts and boobs, but not a single male butt. What's up with that?

This is a good separation to make. The world really does feel like a canvas where the player's choices paint the picture. CDPR seemed to have built an objective world that reflects many of the same problems we see in the world today. I felt like the Baron's quest was really good because it takes you through so many sharp turns. The Baron was shitty, the family was dysfunctional, but I really did begin to feel sympathetic towards the situation even though he dug the hole himself.

Plus the mages (Northern Kingdom ones) are supposed to look like that. They use magic to make themselves look extremely beautiful when in reality they actually don't. It's a part of the world's history/ lore

By definition, that makes it a misogynist world. Whether that makes the game misogynist is a different question, but we really need to get better at admitting this basic fact.

The discussion, particularly when it is a role playing game of some sort, so often gets stuck in how the game world is presented instead of how the characters inhabiting it are presented, and it makes it difficult to actually get to the core of the issues.

I can't comment on this particular game as I haven't played it, but I do think the "historical accuracy" argument doesn't work with fantasy worlds. Yes, there may have been exceptionally poor treatment of women and a lack of people of color in medieval Europe, but fantasy games such as The Witcher 3 don't take place in medieval Europe or any other real-world setting. Again, I'm not sure what specific issues this game has (or doesn't have), but dismissing criticism with "that's just how it was!" it pretty silly when we're talking about a made up fantasy world.

So would it be okay if only the male Gerald got shit, treated like shit, attacked by the scum and filth of the world?

Because that's what I get from ThesePeopleHaveSevereMentalProblemsAndNeedARealityCheckFreq and that Polygon reviewer, both of those people have been next to identical writing on things like Bayonetta, correction: Gies has also been featured in at least one ClickbaitFreq video. Weird coincidence isn't it?

"Then just don't play it" is not the solution for this. "It's fiction, if you cannot deal with women being treated poorly in fiction, how the are you able to live in this world, you sad little child" is the solution.

My answer: CDPR are doing nothing wrong. Also see R* and GTAV and the women within that game.

You know, I don't remember a lot of quests where women were especially victimized, but then again, all the female characters that stood out to me, thus far, were strong and independent. However, in the Bloody Baron's quest, I couldn't help but feel like the game was trying to make me sympathize with a person who abuses his wife, which needless to say, made me feel quite uncomfortable. It may be just me, but that's how I felt.

One thing that bothered me about The Witcher 2 and that is still present in this game is the male gaze. The nudity, so far, hasn't bothered me that much, but I just wish the cinematography was more naturalistic. Another thing is the brothels. I haven't seen one yet, but from what I've heard, sleeping with prostitutes grants you some kind of bonus. I think that's, by definition, an objectification of women. Generally speaking, I think the misogyny in the world of The Witcher is a bit too on-the-nose.

Edit: Apparently, you don't get any bonuses from going to the brothel, but I'm still baffled as to why they exist.

I don't especially care to read up on the Polygon quote. But if I wanna read my own view into it instead, I'd say that the world of the Witcher is incredibly misogyinistic, and it always has been. But the games don't glorify it in any way, if anything it's just another awful fact of the little npc villagers miserable existance.

Btw, the sorceress transformation thing is such a copout answer, but that is canon with the books. And in general I think the book series is a bit more politically skewed in general while CDPR tries to stay faithful while being more ambiguous. If there should be a debate about the depiction of women in the Witcher, Andrzej might be a better target. Though I don't think he's too bad about it.

@turambar: Yes, well, I just meant to clarify the fact that the game isn't inherently misogynist just because it portrays a medieval world. But I know what you mean, discussions like these on the internet often gets hung up on the non-issues..

@yelix: It doesnt take place in medieval europe but it takes place in the medieval folklore of europe.

@somejerk: This is a bit off topic. I don't typically defend Polygon, but the quote in context was pulled out of the review, it was not in the title and the review didn't revolve around it. Overall, the reviewer came out really positive on the game. No point in really discussing another site's content.

@yelix: Nobody is saying "that's just how it was!" as referring to real medieval Europe. We're talking about a medieval setting created by Sapkowski, so like "rules" for mages are the same as he created.