Maybe I'm going soft but...this demo made me uncomfortable.

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#1 Posted by MiniPato (2737 posts) -

Look, I ain't no pansy. I like videogame violence as much as the next guy. Hell, I really enjoyed the Sniper Elite V2 demo and those x-ray shots really tickled my fancy. But something about this game demo kinda put me off. I know being ruthless and all that makes you a badass, but jesus, reel it in a bit Sam. Hearing people cheer when Sam shoots people in the face and slitting their throats with all kinds of juicy blood squirting and bone crunching sound effects kinda made me uncomfortable. I know there might be people in the audience planted there for the sole purpose of cheering, but still. That and seeing middle easterners getting shot in the face in the name of world peace and America in so many games has worn out. It's getting near black face minstrel level of exploitative. Yeah, terrorist groups like Al Quaeda are still at large, but so many games have you killing terrorists that at this point, I've gotten sick of it. This isn't a criticism of this game specifically, rather it is a criticism of gaming culture overall. I felt this same way watching the Medal Of Honor Warfighter demo, but the Splinter Cell demo more so.

I'm not the kinda person to really give a shit about what people on the outside-looking-in think of gaming or whatever preconceptions and stereotypes are out there. But all these shooters, especially military ones, do not help its image. Maybe the violence is getting to visceral, maybe I'm getting soft and turning into an old man, or maybe I'm just in an irritable mood today and am just nitpicking things. I don't know. But seeing so many people cheer for looking down iron sights and shooting shit is kinda depressing.

Now let me ask the famous question so I can turn this thread into a topic of discussion.

AM I THE ONLY ONE?

#2 Posted by JasonR86 (9695 posts) -

Pussy.

#3 Posted by CaptainObvious (2998 posts) -

@JasonR86 said:

Pussy.

#4 Posted by hoossy (934 posts) -

I'm justing hoping you don't have to kill to finish the map

#5 Posted by MiniPato (2737 posts) -

I OPEN MY HEART TO THE GIANT BOMB COMMUNITY AND YOU STOMP ON MY FEELINGS LIKE A WILTED FLOWER!

/wrists

#6 Posted by Kierkegaard (591 posts) -

@MiniPato: Fuck no you're not the only one. At the beginning of that demo I was all, "Hey, cool, we're gonna have a game from the perspective of revolutionaries and, for the first time since Assassin's Creed, play as a Muslim protagonist, now in modern day." Second later, oh, nope, just Sam Fisher murdering people who, as far as we can tell, just want to help their wounded comrade.

It's total bullshit. The premise of the game, that terrorist groups have banded together to attack US cites so we get the fuck out of Afghanistan, is dumb for many reasons.

It is dumb because extremist groups do not band together--they worship far different ideals of destruction. The KKK and the Black Panthers are both extreme. They are not going to create a network.

It is dumb because it takes American exceptionalism to a stupid degree. All these groups only hate the US and are only attacking US targets, so one dude, ONE DUDE, (with air support apparently) has to go and shoot all of them. C'mon vidja games. Grow the fuck up.

And it is dumb because it makes the idea of leaving Afghanistan seem like something only evil crazy people support. I don't have to explain why that's wrong.

So, yeah, thanks for creating a thread where we can rant together. Anyone else?

#7 Posted by familyphotoshoot (653 posts) -

Brown people are the new Nazis.

How many WWII shooters/action games were there before the "modern warfare" trend took over? I can understand the negative reaction to the increasingly nonchalant way the violence is presented, but the target of that violence is just the current zeitgeist. It'll pass, and we'll find a new group of people to shoot, stab, torture, and blow up.

#8 Posted by liquiddragon (239 posts) -

haha op i know what you mean. i'm playing red dead redemption at the moment and finding it hard to really like john marston.

there is a real disconnect between the character these protagonists are suppose to be and their actions.

#9 Posted by NTM (7374 posts) -

I think it looked fucking awesome, that goes for every single demo I've seen so far. It's unfortunate there's so much negative talk about what's shown, it's just looks great and I'm happy about it all.

#10 Posted by joshthebear (2700 posts) -

AMERICA, FUCK YEAH!

#11 Posted by ShalashaskaUK666 (528 posts) -

Wholeheartedly agree!!

Every single game I've seen so far has been all about shooting and stabbin dudes. Hell even Dead Space has turned into a Gears clone!!

So much swearing, blood and gore, I just think it's all pretty unnecessary tbh. I think I've played too many military shooters and other gorey games that its all just numb to me now.

Nothing is earned any more, its all quick-fix thrills and instant gratification moments.

A world of Michael Bay gaming cliches :(

#12 Posted by Emils_katt (9 posts) -

It's embarrassing, really. Both this game and MOH. Monetizing suffering and advancing hate seems to be a theme so far this E3. Killing brown people with robots is apparently the new hot thing.

#13 Edited by TheDudeOfGaming (6078 posts) -
@MiniPato said:

That and seeing middle easterners getting shot in the face in the name of world peace and America in so many games has worn out. It's getting near black face minstrel level of exploitative. 

You yanks need a universal bad guy. But when you finger some Arab in a buss, then it's fucking wrong. Make up your minds.
#14 Posted by Salarn (465 posts) -

Well, with any game, when giving a target to the players to attack and/or kill, hopefully there can be a justification for the violence.

If there is no justification, then it becomes gratuitous and understandingly uncomfortable.

#15 Edited by yoshisaur (2717 posts) -

@TheDudeOfGaming said:

@MiniPato said:

That and seeing middle easterners getting shot in the face in the name of world peace and America in so many games has worn out. It's getting near black face minstrel level of exploitative.

You yanks need a universal bad guy. But when you finger some Arab in a buss, then it's fucking wrong. Make up your minds.

The Middle East are our "enemies" right now, so I don't understand Pato's discomfort with American pride in saving the day against them. It sounds more like random ranting than it does an actual complaint in any regard.

@Kierkegaard: Good lord, man. Calm yourself, it's just a video-game.

#16 Posted by JackOhara (227 posts) -

@ck1nd said:

@TheDudeOfGaming said:

@MiniPato said:

That and seeing middle easterners getting shot in the face in the name of world peace and America in so many games has worn out. It's getting near black face minstrel level of exploitative.

You yanks need a universal bad guy. But when you finger some Arab in a buss, then it's fucking wrong. Make up your minds.

The Middle East are our "enemies" right now, so I don't understand Pato's discomfort with American pride in saving the day against them. It sounds more like random ranting than it does an actual complaint in any regard.

@Kierkegaard: Good lord, man. Calm yourself, it's just a video-game.

Holy shit, the amount of stupid in what you just said is insane. I really hope you are just fucking with us.

#17 Posted by Kierkegaard (591 posts) -

@ck1nd said:

@TheDudeOfGaming said:

@MiniPato said:

That and seeing middle easterners getting shot in the face in the name of world peace and America in so many games has worn out. It's getting near black face minstrel level of exploitative.

You yanks need a universal bad guy. But when you finger some Arab in a buss, then it's fucking wrong. Make up your minds.

The Middle East are our "enemies" right now, so I don't understand Pato's discomfort with American pride in saving the day against them. It sounds more like random ranting than it does an actual complaint in any regard.

@Kierkegaard: Good lord, man. Calm yourself, it's just a video-game.

Either you're an ignorant racist person, or you are pretending to be an ignorant racist person for laughs. Either way, [flagged]!

#18 Posted by believer258 (11895 posts) -

The funny thing about all these modern military shooters and the constant American protagonists is that their granddaddy, Call of Duty 4, mercilessly killed off the American protagonist about a third of the way through, and then asked you to play as a British guy for the entire rest of the game. The Americans only show up again later and don't really have a hugely integral part to the plot.

And it's the same for the other two games as well! British good guys and some American secondary guy!

#19 Posted by Dallas_Raines (2160 posts) -

People love to watch action movies, people love to play action games. Everyone has a little bit of bloodlust.

#20 Posted by MiniPato (2737 posts) -

@ck1nd said:

@TheDudeOfGaming said:

@MiniPato said:

That and seeing middle easterners getting shot in the face in the name of world peace and America in so many games has worn out. It's getting near black face minstrel level of exploitative.

You yanks need a universal bad guy. But when you finger some Arab in a buss, then it's fucking wrong. Make up your minds.

The Middle East are our "enemies" right now, so I don't understand Pato's discomfort with American pride in saving the day against them. It sounds more like random ranting than it does an actual complaint in any regard.

@Kierkegaard: Good lord, man. Calm yourself, it's just a video-game.

I don't know if I should respond seriously to that, but read again. I said I know we have had conflicts there before and still do, it's a modern issue and terrorist cells like Al Quaeda are still out there. The case isn't that we are demonizing a random ethnicity off no basis. The problem is that we are demonizing an ethnicity that has been stereotyped and racially profiled to hell and back and it's getting old and damn near tasteless at this point.

@Dallas_Raines said:

People love to watch action movies, people love to play action games. Everyone has a little bit of bloodlust.

I do too. Like I said, I enjoy gratuitous violence. I didn't see the problem with the violence in Max Payne 3 that Ryan was disturbed by. But the Splinter Cell demo just rubbed me the wrong way. Everyone has their bar I suppose.

#21 Posted by Tylea002 (2295 posts) -

I thought the plot looked super dumb, and not in the awesome Conviction way.

#22 Posted by Kierkegaard (591 posts) -

@MiniPato said:

The problem is that we are demonizing an ethnicity that has been stereotyped and racially profiled to hell and back and it's getting old and damn near tasteless at this point.

Yup. To be fair, though, the end of that demo the guy did say Sam was acting like a cowboy and kill himself, implying something else is going on here. But I want a demo of the something else. Hell, I want a game about the something else. Shooting people on the Iran/Iraq border for a ridiculous, contrived reason is now not only unethical, it's boring.

#23 Edited by Dallas_Raines (2160 posts) -

@Kierkegaard:

Well, the last game was about shooting Americans, that's slightly different.

#24 Posted by Kierkegaard (591 posts) -

@Dallas_Raines: Yeah, that doesn't, like, balance the scales of justice or something though. The point is, if you sell millions of people games about people doing things, you should make those things conform to how people are, not stereotypes and false exaggerations of global events.

COD 4 is a great example of doing it right. Black Ops, too. Hell, Metal Gear Solid 4, in all its insanity, had a defter hand. This premise for a game is embarrassing.

#25 Posted by FirebirdINF (275 posts) -

I cringed too. Perhaps it was deliberate that we start out identifying with what turns out to be an enemy. That leads to engagement of thoughts just like yours. I can see how one an argue that this game just doesn't sterilize killings and shows it viscerally, but it was almost a stuff film. I had the same feelings come up during Tomb Raider trailer.

#26 Posted by furiouscabbage (20 posts) -

@MiniPato: I agree Pato, there has been a HUGE upswing in neck stabbing in just the first day of games alone. You could make a drinking game out of it.

Honestly, I think it's just lazy game design. Just play a canned kill animation to eliminate enemy AI rather than having to create unique stealth gameplay.

#27 Posted by yoshisaur (2717 posts) -

@MiniPato: This is exactly what happens when someone makes a quick reply, and everyone jumps on him because they have some odd insatiable need to make an ass out of everyone.

Any way, I'm pointing out that I don't understand the uncomfortable-ness that you feel, and that's it. There is nothing wrong with an antagonist of another nation being the main enemy of a video game. Pointing out that I'm racist (some users) is a little bit immature. I'm am simply regarding the fact that the game obviously focuses on that type of enemy, and there is a sense of pride when you are possibly fighting terrorist groups. We don't know anything about them, but I don't think it is a far flung theory to think that the enemy in this game is going to fuck things up, or maybe that there is a twist at the end that pulls at your heart-strings.

Again, sorry I "offended" people with my quick comment, I am not a racist and hate that people who obviously see themselves as better than what they represented me as, but jumped on me as quickly as any other fanatic.

On a better note, I think the game looks cool, and the fluency of the combat just seems a little unreal that I can't wait to get my hands on it and play it. However, after thinking a little bit about it, I believe I understand your discomfort with the lack of obvious human decency in Fischer's brutal combat. It didn't seem very human at all, and almost like a robotic killing machine just slaughtering people without any regard. Other than that, it looks no different than any other action game, really.

#28 Posted by niamahai (1405 posts) -

I wasn't squeamish about this at all. Mr Fisher have been stabbing/shooting people in the face since he was born.

Now that Ms Croft demo, where she straight up rushes someone to stab them in the neck, that's unbecoming of a lady.

#29 Posted by Kierkegaard (591 posts) -

@ck1nd: Hey bro, you said we are at war with the middle east so killing middle eastern people is cool. That's an ignorant, racist comment. Sorry for defining you by it, but damn. Think before you type.

People have different primary reactions to stories and media. I labeled you because your comment wasn't just something I disagree with, it was wrong, factually and ethically.

Happy to see you being more clearheaded now.

#30 Posted by TheSouthernDandy (3865 posts) -

@Kierkegaard: Thats not at all what he said nor was his comment flag worthy. I'm not saying you don't have a point but you do need to chill.

#31 Posted by Deathmachine117 (377 posts) -

Was it just me or did they get rid of Micheal Ironside as the voice of Sam ?

#32 Posted by Helimocopter (369 posts) -

They can kind of do whatever can't they? An@Kierkegaard said:

@Dallas_Raines: Yeah, that doesn't, like, balance the scales of justice or something though.

Agreed, racism is bad, thought perhaps the "scale of justice" is a sort of esoteric and "bull shitty" concept to apply to a tom clancy game. I don't think they intend to offend, but using middle easterners, in some ways are, is like using the russians in everything. They aren't actually a people composed entirely of vodka-guzzling supervillians, but a russian bad guy can still make for a compelling figure for the millions of people you mention.

@Kierkegaard said:

The point is, if you sell millions of people games about people doing things, you should make those things conform to how people are, not stereotypes and false exaggerations of global events.

The vast majority of games are about "people doing things," are they not? And why should every popular game be forced to conform to realism (never thought I would try to defend the artistic credibility of a tom clancy game)? "How people are" seems like a hard thing to do, how do you humanize a religious extremist who's only reason to exist is to die at the other end of a player-controlled gun sight (if that's what you mean) that you can fairly leverage at this game that you couldn't level at call of duty. They focused on humanizing the soldier's you fight beside more than the ones you kill.

@Kierkegaard said:

COD 4 is a great example of doing it right. Black Ops, too. Hell, Metal Gear Solid 4, in all its insanity, had a defter hand. This premise for a game is embarrassing.

I can't speak for MGS4, but I don't think that the Call of Duty franchise set out to make you ponder the morality of a terrorist. They seem pretty dedicated to shooting as many people in the head as possible, while occasionally making the people around you die in a way that makes you feel a slight emotional twinge. I don't think they were making a statement about how "all people are people" as much as "war is bad." There is a difference.

IMPORTANT NOTE: None of this post is supposed to be taken as an attack, but simply a series of issues I thought of reading the quoted post.

#33 Posted by Kierkegaard (591 posts) -

@Helimocopter said:

They can kind of do whatever can't they? An@Kierkegaard said:

@Dallas_Raines: Yeah, that doesn't, like, balance the scales of justice or something though.

Agreed, racism is bad, thought perhaps the "scale of justice" is a sort of esoteric and "bull shitty" concept to apply to a tom clancy game. I don't think they intend to offend, but using middle easterners, in some ways are, is like using the russians in everything. They aren't actually a people composed entirely of vodka-guzzling supervillians, but a russian bad guy can still make for a compelling figure for the millions of people you mention.

@Kierkegaard said:

The point is, if you sell millions of people games about people doing things, you should make those things conform to how people are, not stereotypes and false exaggerations of global events.

The vast majority of games are about "people doing things," are they not? And why should every popular game be forced to conform to realism (never thought I would try to defend the artistic credibility of a tom clancy game)? "How people are" seems like a hard thing to do, how do you humanize a religious extremist who's only reason to exist is to die at the other end of a player-controlled gun sight (if that's what you mean) that you can fairly leverage at this game that you couldn't level at call of duty. They focused on humanizing the soldier's you fight beside more than the ones you kill.

@Kierkegaard said:

COD 4 is a great example of doing it right. Black Ops, too. Hell, Metal Gear Solid 4, in all its insanity, had a defter hand. This premise for a game is embarrassing.

I can't speak for MGS4, but I don't think that the Call of Duty franchise set out to make you ponder the morality of a terrorist. They seem pretty dedicated to shooting as many people in the head as possible, while occasionally making the people around you die in a way that makes you feel a slight emotional twinge. I don't think they were making a statement about how "all people are people" as much as "war is bad." There is a difference.

IMPORTANT NOTE: None of this post is supposed to be taken as an attack, but simply a series of issues I thought of reading the quoted post.

Hey man, no attack on either side. Just discussion. Heady discussion that can challenge the calm of even the most peaceful among us.

Villains should be people with problems who may need to be killed in order to ensure better lives for the people they are killing. Games use this utilitarian notion of deserved death a lot, but it's even worse when they get lazy and equate being a certain race, ethnicity, gender, or culture with being bad. I don't see any reason to continue doing that without anyone. Even Nazi cannon fodder is weird when a lot of the Nazi grunts were just scared kids brainwashed by a false messiah.

Everyone is a human. Downfall humanizes Hitler. The Hurt Locker humanizes insurgents. Portal 2 humanizes Glados. It's a challenge of storytelling. Games are up to the challenge.

And Call of Duty 4 is all I meant. The franchise, especially after that, did not do a great job. But COD4 has you fighting along side Russians to stop a Russian. And it makes you feel really, really awful while firing missiles to kill white targets on a screen. It's not great ethically, but its trying. War is bad is a great message. Wrapped up in that is the idea that marking people as enemies because they are different is bad.

Yeah, it's not a perfect example. At all. I think COD in general says all people are opportunist assholes except for the dude you play as.

I just don't want games, as conservative politicians and news media have done, to use terrorism and violence of a few to discriminate against the many. It's not nice at all.

#34 Posted by Rohok (554 posts) -

The demo made me uncomfortable, but it was the terrible gameplay and butchering of the Tom Clancy franchise, not the violence.

#35 Posted by Subach (41 posts) -

I just don't like that I have to seemingly kill everyone to advance. One of the reasons I like stealth games is that they can allow you to be a badass without having to murder tons of dudes who are just doing their jobs.

#36 Edited by Chop (1997 posts) -

@Subach said:

I just don't like that I have to seemingly kill everyone to advance. One of the reasons I like stealth games is that they can allow you to be a badass without having to murder tons of dudes who are just doing their jobs.

I miss this style of stealth game so so so much. I loved doing no kill, no touch runs in the old Splinter Cell and MGS games.

#37 Posted by DBagalot (159 posts) -

@Rohok said:

The demo made me uncomfortable, but it was the terrible gameplay and butchering of the Tom Clancy franchise, not the violence.

#38 Posted by Klaimore (948 posts) -

I see where you are coming from games are getting brutal but I assume with better graphics its going to get worse.

#39 Posted by Angre_Leperkan439 (333 posts) -

@MiniPato: Nope. I find myself agreeing with you. Seriously, how tired is the setting of the Middle East? It's everybody's go-to villain, the same way the communists were in the late 20th century.

#40 Posted by Vextroid (1395 posts) -

I thought the Throat stab in Tomb Raider was more gory then Splinter Cell, seemed almost cartoony.

#41 Posted by MarkWahlberg (4604 posts) -

Well, the Splinter Cell thing just seemed dumb, but after watching a lot of the demos they showed today, man am I just burned the fuck out on all the killing. Like, I get it, that's what happens in most video games, but I just started to get more and more uninterested. Watch Dogs had my interest right up until it turned into 3rd person-shooter-with-environmental-and-melee-options. By the time I saw the Last of Us demo, which is by normal standards a pretty impressive demo, I just didn't care anymore.

Maybe I'm just getting too old for this shit.

#42 Posted by jillsandwich (762 posts) -

It's a Tom Clancy game, dude. Reasonable politicking is not something I come to expect from a series of games made by french-canadians trying to act like right-wing military fiction writers.

I just thought it was really interesting how Sam just fucking caps that guy and tells Grimsdottir that he killed himself. Sam Fisher was already a complete sociopath in Conviction, but I don't feel like that was something that was intentional, unlike a possible direction they go with in this game.

#43 Posted by DBagalot (159 posts) -

@MarkWahlberg: Weird enough I feel the same way. I get more excited when interesting things are done in the environment. The part in the God of War Demo where he constructed a pathway to climb up on out of nothing was probably the peak of that demo for me personally.

#44 Edited by JustinNotJason (422 posts) -

I'm uncomfortable with the lack of Michael Ironsides. Its not Sam Fisher without the gravelly voice.

Gameplay-wise it just seems uninspired I guess.

I kind of wish they had done more of a Assassin's Creed/Burn Notice style of Secret Agent mixed with traditional SC.

I honestly just want an Alpha Protocol type game that isn't Alpha Protocol. Anybody else understand what I mean?

#45 Edited by koriar (17 posts) -

@Subach said:

I just don't like that I have to seemingly kill everyone to advance. One of the reasons I like stealth games is that they can allow you to be a badass without having to murder tons of dudes who are just doing their jobs.

My thoughts exactly. Sam made a little speech in the Chaos Theory tutorial about how "These guards are not my enemies. They are people who have a job to do and have families to go home to just like I do. The light is my true enemy" and once that became part of the character I did my best to never kill a single guard that I didn't have to, even if it meant taking a few bullets. Those games were great. I wasn't even able to finish Conviction because of this, so the fact that they're continuing in that direction is very disappointing.

@JustinNotJason said:

I honestly just want an Alpha Protocol type game that isn't Alpha Protocol. Anybody else understand what I mean?

I just want an Alpha Protocol type game that is Alpha Protocol 2.

#46 Posted by Skald (4367 posts) -

Blacklist is about an unsettling kind of soldier who uses subversion, summary judgment and extrajudicial torture- terrorism- in order to destroy terrorists. It's like news about Guantanamo Bat or water boarding, except it's you, the player compromising America's principles in order to achieve domestic security. Of course, the screaming, crunching and general inhumanity probably don't help, but what multimillion dollar game doesn't have at least two of those?

#47 Posted by ShadowLegend300 (28 posts) -

If you feel like that,you probably shouldn't be playing games...

#48 Posted by senorfuzzeh (385 posts) -

@hoossy said:

I'm justing hoping you don't have to kill to finish the map

I know, I missed the old school splinter cell days when you could make it through the entire game with out killing a single person.

#49 Posted by Yanngc33 (4496 posts) -

Gamers want blood

#50 Posted by FetchTheDubliners (14 posts) -

Maybe I am going soft, but...

This game looks terrible... What happened to sneaking?

Both Splinter Cell and MGS are dead.

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