Could someone explain to me where the rape stuff is coming from?

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#51 Posted by TheFreeMan (2712 posts) -

I hope the developers don't bend. There's a lot of extreme outrage going around (or, well, actually it's probably just all the angry teens on tumblr that i'm seeing). I don't really get it - I mean, I understand it being disturbing because it should be disturbing. It looks like she's going to get raped and when she starts to fight back the guy decides to skip that and just kill her before she blows his god damn face off at point blank range That's a pretty disturbing sequence of events. You should feel appropriately disturbed. Better that than shrugging it off like it was nothing. 
 
What I don't get is all the people screaming at the developers for being misogynist for including anything related to sexual assault. Don't get me wrong, rape is fucked up beyond my ability to express but I also don't think it's something that a story should have to shy away from. Making a character go through rape to become "badass" is lazy and offensive to those who have experienced it, but the whole "trial by fire" thing seems to be the theme of this new Tomb Raider, ala Die Hard or Casino Royale - John McClane had it happen to him, James Bond had it happen to him (dude had his genitals mutilated and went through significant emotional trauma). It's not exactly the same since they weren't as green at the beginning of those movies, but they definitely didn't seem prepared for the events, and it looks like they're trying to do the same with Lara by putting her through everything: crazy people are trying to kill her, her friends are getting murdered, the island seems to want her dead considering the amount of disasters/explosions that she scrapes through, bloodthirsty wolves, etc. etc. It's not like they just randomly chose rape, that seems to kind of be the breaking point after this whirlwind of everything trying to destroy her, considering this appears to be the first guy that she actively murders. I don't know, I'd be more baffled if they didn't have a villain try to pull this shit, be a little conspicuous considering how straight-up evil they appear to be. I can still see some offense being taken because rape is a tricky issue in fiction, but the fervent moral guardians blur the issue when they jump and scream at everything about this game (the moaning, really she took a pipe through the fucking abdomen, I'd be moaning and screaming too right before I died). No offense to the people having regular discourse about this, though. At the end of it, this game could be extremely offensive, who knows. It's not out yet. People be flipping shit about a couple of minutes of chopped up footage.
 
Anyways. Tomb Raider looks cool and new Lara is ice cold. Stabbing dudes in the face with arrows, damn. Looking forward to it, hope it turns out good.

#52 Posted by TentPole (1858 posts) -

@iAmJohn said:

@TentPole: Name a single time in which I have said that Tomb Raider should not exist. Oh wait that's right, you can't.

Name a single time when I said that you thought Tomb Raider should not exist . Oh wait that's right, you can't because all I did was ask you a question since I wasn't sure what your point was you fucking asshole.

#53 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4851 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@Hailinel said:

@Animasta Dude paws Lara's thigh with signals of more to come and gets shanked by her for being a murderous pervert. What is there for Lara to discuss after the fact?

Then why IS it sexual harassment at that point? I'd feel for Lara just as much as if the dude was trying to kill her.

Well not that sexual harassment is BAD, perse, it's more that I'd like it if they touched on how much it fucks with you. Sure, someone trying to kill you is terrible as well, but games have been trying to kill you since the dawn of time. There haven't been too many games that have featured someone trying to molest another character, and I'd think it'd be a cool thing if they actually touched on it. Obviously I don't know if they would or not, they might touch on it with that later scene of Lara rescuing that other girl, but still.

I see what you're saying, and I think, in all honesty, that's probably a constant fear (at least during the early parts of the game, where she's more vulnerable) when she runs into these savages. I wouldn't be surprised if it messes with Lara's head in a way, but considering she's in "survival mode" during the game, I'm not so sure they'd dwell on it. Considering every few minutes she has some new, savage ordeal to contend with, I'd actually be puzzled if the developers decided to dwell on the one time when a Bad Dude groped her (and then got hilariously ruined afterward). If anything, that scene shows me that she's not a victim, and that the developers have no intention of making her one. She's vulnerable, yes, and she goes through some crazy shit, definitely, but she's also not willing to suffer those indignities (not to say any sexually abused person was willing to suffer, quite the opposite. It's just that, outside of fiction, most people don't have access to the arsenal Lara does.). I think it's actually ballsier by having her experience the fear of a possible rape and then brutally executing the would-be attacker and shrugging the experience off. It goes a long way to showing how Lara is hardening before our eyes. It's the goal of this Tomb Raider to evolve Lara from a vulnerable college girl to the ultimate bad-ass survivalist we've known for the last twenty years. With what we've seen so far, they're succeeding in spades.

#54 Posted by EpicSteve (6492 posts) -

I think it just comes down to your average person can't cope with seeing depictions of violence. I've only seen the initial announcement gameplay video, but if that made you uncomfortable you need more things in life to worry about.

#55 Posted by Sweep (8922 posts) -

@Subjugation said:

Unfortunately the internet is full of double standards and sensationalism. Tomb Raider looks to be the latest victim.

Pretty much this.

When watching the trailers and gameplay my honest reaction was not "It's awesome how this woman is getting knocked around!" but rather "Lara Croft is a fucking badass?!".

Moderator
#56 Posted by iAmJohn (6128 posts) -

@JasonR86 said:

@iAmJohn said:

@JasonR86 said:

@benjaebe:

In a video Lara defends herself from a guy who is feeling her up. 'Rape' is a strong word but it was certainly sexual assault. I don't get the 'feeling uncomfortable' part of this though. It does seem a little weird that every person on the bad side seems to be a man but, when it was Nathan Drake in a similar scenario (minus the sexual assault bit), no one raised any questions. I think people are just overly sensitive when women are involved. Plus it's a bunch of guys who seem to be weirded out and, in this instance, they're view on the uncomfortable-ness of the game is less important to me. I would like to see how a female journalist feels about the game.

Because there's no implications of Nathan Drake about to be sexually violated against his will before another scene of complete brutality. How is this so hard for you people to understand?

I'm sorry, but that kind of sexual violence makes me really uncomfortable. Couple it with the unflinchingly brutal. bordering on torture porn violence seen throughout every other parts of all the Tomb Raider demos, and you get a game that makes me very uncomfortable to look at. How is that hypocrisy? How is that a double-standard? You internet people are insane.

Not to mention that comparing the violence of the Uncharted series--which is less violent than Raiders of the Lost Ark, the film it's pretty much based on whole cloth--to the violence in any of the Tomb Raider demos is disingenuous and an false fucking equivalency as all hell.

I said minus the sexual assault bit. The brutality and violence, well, do you remember Uncharted 2 and 3? It doesn't seem as brutal because Drake is more jovial and light hearted about the shit he takes then Lara. But the dude just fucked up in those games. What people are noticing is the tone change. The nature of the violence is very similar to me though. What Crystal D is trying to show is how Lara became so hard-edged and, to get there, she has to go through some shit.

#57 Edited by stryker1121 (1525 posts) -

Watched the vid, read the column on Penny Arcade. It's the sexualized violence and implied rapey stuff that's going to spark some controversy. Talk about double standards all you want, folks, but Nathan Drake or any other male VG action hero is never going to be threatened w/ that kind violation. Lara's a pretty young girl being beaten and groped by men, and that doesn't play well in the sticks. Can't say I'm uncomfortable with the trailer (it looked damned good, actually) but I can see the problem it could pose for some gamers.

#58 Posted by Animasta (14712 posts) -

@Oldirtybearon: you're right, It's just hard to know how the entire game will go at this point, and I'm a little worried they won't portray things with the gravitas that they deserve. I just want some downtime moments, since there are other people in the camp last I heard, where Lara is able to come to terms with how fucked up everything is. Constant action with how she's supposed to be portrayed sounds a little unrealistic.

#59 Posted by Arker101 (1474 posts) -

@iAmJohn: Fully agreed.

#60 Posted by TheSouthernDandy (3906 posts) -

@Animasta: I'm betting there will be those moments. To be fair we've probably seen like, 10 minutes total from that game, its gonna be all action action action in the trailers. There will be room for character development they just haven't shown that yet. That's my guess anyway.

#61 Posted by iAmJohn (6128 posts) -

@TheSouthernDandy said:

@Animasta: I'm betting there will be those moments. To be fair we've probably seen like, 10 minutes total from that game, its gonna be all action action action in the trailers. There will be room for character development they just haven't shown that yet. That's my guess anyway.

So if that's there, show that. Why should we have to fill in the blanks of their seemingly torture porn looking game and have to give them the benefit of the doubt that it's not just going to be a series of violent acts being committed against Lara Croft for no better reason than because it's dark and edgy and the team at Crystal Dynamics really likes The Descent? What has made them earn that right?

#62 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4851 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@Oldirtybearon: you're right, It's just hard to know how the entire game will go at this point, and I'm a little worried they won't portray things with the gravitas that they deserve. I just want some downtime moments, since there are other people in the camp last I heard, where Lara is able to come to terms with how fucked up everything is. Constant action with how she's supposed to be portrayed sounds a little unrealistic.

That's a natural apprehension, and I feel the same way about Dead Space 3. Way different games, but you get my point.

I don't think there's much to be worried about with Tomb Raider, though. From the beginning the developers have said that this is not a pretty game. It's going to be brutal, hard, and it's going to make the player uncomfortable. The goal of the developers is to craft a survival story in the vein of old Jack London. A better comparison to Tomb Raider would be The Grey, not Uncharted. Uncharted I've always clowned for being a cartoon caricature of an action movie, with an unlikable, sociopath protagonist. Everything I've seen about Tomb Raider leads me to believe that Lara is human. The things she endures will push the limits of her humanity, and it's something I'm excited about.

Real triumph for both the player and the character are possible in Tomb Raider. All of the action set pieces in Uncharted couldn't hold a candle to what Tomb Raider can achieve if they handle it right, and it looks like they will.

#63 Posted by TheSouthernDandy (3906 posts) -

@iAmJohn said:

@TheSouthernDandy said:

@Animasta: I'm betting there will be those moments. To be fair we've probably seen like, 10 minutes total from that game, its gonna be all action action action in the trailers. There will be room for character development they just haven't shown that yet. That's my guess anyway.

So if that's there, show that. Why should we have to fill in the blanks of their seemingly torture porn looking game and have to give them the benefit of the doubt that it's not just going to be a series of violent acts being committed against Lara Croft for no better reason than because it's dark and edgy and the team at Crystal Dynamics really likes The Descent? What has made them earn that right?

Dude come on. They're trailers. Whether they're bad trailers or good trailers, somebody has sat down and said "What do we show in the three minutes we have to get the most attention." It's not a real stretch to think that whoever was responsible for coming up with that footage thought that quiet character building moments aren't something that would generate buzz. Why is your assumption that the entire game will be Lara getting the crap beat out of her any more valid then the assumption there will be character building moments? Deciding what the entire scope of a full length game is from a 3 minute trailer is pants on head retarded.

#64 Posted by JasonR86 (9742 posts) -

@iAmJohn said:

@JasonR86 said:

@iAmJohn said:

@JasonR86 said:

@benjaebe:

In a video Lara defends herself from a guy who is feeling her up. 'Rape' is a strong word but it was certainly sexual assault. I don't get the 'feeling uncomfortable' part of this though. It does seem a little weird that every person on the bad side seems to be a man but, when it was Nathan Drake in a similar scenario (minus the sexual assault bit), no one raised any questions. I think people are just overly sensitive when women are involved. Plus it's a bunch of guys who seem to be weirded out and, in this instance, they're view on the uncomfortable-ness of the game is less important to me. I would like to see how a female journalist feels about the game.

Because there's no implications of Nathan Drake about to be sexually violated against his will before another scene of complete brutality. How is this so hard for you people to understand?

I'm sorry, but that kind of sexual violence makes me really uncomfortable. Couple it with the unflinchingly brutal. bordering on torture porn violence seen throughout every other parts of all the Tomb Raider demos, and you get a game that makes me very uncomfortable to look at. How is that hypocrisy? How is that a double-standard? You internet people are insane.

Not to mention that comparing the violence of the Uncharted series--which is less violent than Raiders of the Lost Ark, the film it's pretty much based on whole cloth--to the violence in any of the Tomb Raider demos is disingenuous and an false fucking equivalency as all hell.

I said minus the sexual assault bit. The brutality and violence, well, do you remember Uncharted 2 and 3? It doesn't seem as brutal because Drake is more jovial and light hearted about the shit he takes then Lara. But the dude just fucked up in those games. What people are noticing is the tone change. The nature of the violence is very similar to me though. What Crystal D is trying to show is how Lara became so hard-edged and, to get there, she has to go through some shit.

I think people are overreacting. If it was a man in Lara's place there would be no discussion here.

#65 Posted by JasonR86 (9742 posts) -

@iAmJohn said:

@JasonR86: Well you're wrong, but keep telling yourself that.

Well I'm convinced then. Good show mate.

#66 Posted by Totori (559 posts) -

I'll put it this way. In The Last Of Us gameplay demo, dude gets the shit beat out of him and then has his head blown the hell off at point blank range. That got a standing O and happiest cheering ever. Someone gives Lara a rapey look and all everyone loses their shit.

#67 Posted by iAmJohn (6128 posts) -

@JasonR86: Well you're wrong, but keep telling yourself that.

@TheSouthernDandy said:

Dude come on. They're trailers. Whether they're bad trailers or good trailers, somebody has sat down and said "What do we show in the three minutes we have to get the most attention." It's not a real stretch to think that whoever was responsible for coming up with that footage thought that quiet character building moments aren't something that would generate buzz. Why is your assumption that the entire game will be Lara getting the crap beat out of her any more valid then the assumption there will be character building moments? Deciding what the entire scope of a full length game is from a 3 minute trailer is pants on head retarded.

The point of a trailer is to show me what the game is about and sell me on it. You don't need to tell me about the entire game, but you need to compel me to want to check it out. Showing nothing but Lara being put through violent scene after violent scene implies, to me, that it's what the game is all about and makes me not want to check it out in hopes that maybe, just maybe, there will be more to the game than "Lara basically gets the fuck abused out of her and then turns around and murders her captors I Spit on Your Grave-style. I don't think this is that difficult a concept.

#68 Posted by TheSouthernDandy (3906 posts) -

@iAmJohn said:

@JasonR86: Well you're wrong, but keep telling yourself that.

@TheSouthernDandy said:

Dude come on. They're trailers. Whether they're bad trailers or good trailers, somebody has sat down and said "What do we show in the three minutes we have to get the most attention." It's not a real stretch to think that whoever was responsible for coming up with that footage thought that quiet character building moments aren't something that would generate buzz. Why is your assumption that the entire game will be Lara getting the crap beat out of her any more valid then the assumption there will be character building moments? Deciding what the entire scope of a full length game is from a 3 minute trailer is pants on head retarded.

The point of a trailer is to show me what the game is about and sell me on it. You don't need to tell me about the entire game, but you need to compel me to want to check it out. Showing nothing but Lara being put through violent scene after violent scene implies, to me, that it's what the game is all about and makes me not want to check it out in hopes that maybe, just maybe, there will be more to the game than "Lara basically gets the fuck abused out of her and then turns around and murders her captors I Spit on Your Grave-style. I don't think this is that difficult a concept.

Ok first off, this is nowhere close to I Spit On Your Grave. Not even remotely. Getting her hip grabbed is a far cry from getting raped by multiple people and left to die. Thats a dumb comparison. Second, regardless of if the trailer was effect in attracting you or not is beside the point. Could they have done a better job? Sure maybe. That doesn't change the fact that there are a lot of people who are interested in this new game, myself included. I would agree I don't wanna play a game thats 10 hours of Lara getting beat to hell, but you know what? I'm also rational enough to know that I've seen very little of the game and I'm going to wait to find out more before I freak out and start screaming about misogyny and torture porn.

If you're completely turned off by this game thats totally fine! You absolutely have that right. Just like other people have the right to be interested in the game without you trying to convince them they're bad people.

#69 Edited by iAmJohn (6128 posts) -

@TheSouthernDandy said:

If you're completely turned off by this game thats totally fine! You absolutely have that right. Just like other people have the right to be interested in the game without you trying to convince them they're bad people.

And thank you for putting words in my mouth that I never said, since I guess apparently arguing that the negative attitudes towards this game aren't based on some ludicrous strawman argument that people are only made uncomfortable because it's a woman being put through this shit and they're being misogynistic themselves is the same thing as saying that everyone interested in this game is a bad person. Appreciate it!

#70 Posted by IanYarborough (152 posts) -

@benjaebe: I sometimes wonder if there's a reactionary element in games journalism against so much of the story and character content in video games being, frankly, somewhat shallow and puerile. The games industry, games press and core gamers are all male dominated, and I suspect some journalists of having a defensive overreaction in an attempt to compensate for this. I think we can all agree that gratuitous bloodshed, boobs, cursing, guns, violence against women and violence against tigers is bad. Having said that, if properly contextualized, these all have the potential to be very powerful moments or elements in games. The onus is on each individual game to justify its choices. I get the whiff of throwing the baby out with the bathwater with this in the sense that a journalist shitting on a particular game is, in actuality shitting on the industry as whole's inability to, well, grow up. I understand the frustration, but I find it a bit misguided.

#71 Posted by TheSouthernDandy (3906 posts) -

@iAmJohn said:

@TheSouthernDandy said:

If you're completely turned off by this game thats totally fine! You absolutely have that right. Just like other people have the right to be interested in the game without you trying to convince them they're bad people.

And thank you for putting words in my mouth that I never said, since I guess apparently arguing that the negative attitudes towards this game aren't based on some ludicrous strawman argument that people are only made uncomfortable because it's a woman being put through this shit and they're being misogynistic themselves. Appreciate it!

Hey anytime! Ok you didn't say people who like the game are bad people, you're right, I retract that. Everything else I said stands.

#72 Posted by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

I dont get it. Its just because its a womans voice instead of a man. Drake, Marcus Fennix, Isaac Clark ETC all let out the same sounds

#73 Posted by Dagbiker (6978 posts) -

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

I dont get it. Its just because its a womans voice instead of a man. Drake, Marcus Fennix, Isaac Clark ETC all let out the same sounds

To be fair, if it was a mans voice coming out of that body, i think people would be complaining about something else.

#74 Posted by NTM (7479 posts) -
Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooobs
#75 Posted by JasonR86 (9742 posts) -

@NTM said:

Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooobs

I bet she has back problems.

#76 Posted by iAmJohn (6128 posts) -

@TheSouthernDandy: To make one final point here (mostly because I'm kind of getting bored of this thread) I do get that it's an E3 showing and they want to put their most actiony foot forward since showing a slower, more low-key demo could potentially lead to a boring non-starter of a demo, but the violence issue is one that has been around since last E3 when they first showed off the game. Yes I know that they hinted at things like hunting and a base camp and there being actual survival elements, but when you look at the stuff they actually showed at Microsoft, it seems like the only criticism they really took to heart from E3 2011 was that now the game looks more like Uncharted a traditional game and less like an Asura's Wrath QTE fest. They didn't take any time to address concerns of the tone being "let's show Lara Croft getting fucked up as violently as possible because that shit is cool dawg" and that's what bothers me. And it bothers me more because unlike, say, an Uncharted or a Gears of War or a Dead Space or (to an extent) Max Payne 3, this game is going for straight, unabashed "realism" and not playing things up as over the top. It's the unflinchingly sober look at the violence while seemingly reveling in the exploitation film quality of putting the character through abuse after abuse (which is why I made that I Spit on Your Grave comparison, because while the content and focus might be nowhere near the same, I think the tone most certainly is) that puts me off.

#77 Posted by stryker1121 (1525 posts) -

@IanYarborough said:

@benjaebe: I sometimes wonder if there's a reactionary element in games journalism against so much of the story and character content in video games being, frankly, somewhat shallow and puerile. The games industry, games press and core gamers are all male dominated, and I suspect some journalists of having a defensive overreaction in an attempt to compensate for this. I think we can all agree that gratuitous bloodshed, boobs, cursing, guns, violence against women and violence against tigers is bad. Having said that, if properly contextualized, these all have the potential to be very powerful moments or elements in games. The onus is on each individual game to justify its choices. I get the whiff of throwing the baby out with the bathwater with this in the sense that a journalist shitting on a particular game is, in actuality shitting on the industry as whole's inability to, well, grow up. I understand the frustration, but I find it a bit misguided.

The only question I have is about the rape stuff, which is part of Lara's "punishment" specifically b/c she's a pretty young girl. Not saying it's not a realistic scenario, but does a video game really need that kind of depiction of violence for Lara's character to grow into the survivalist of later games?

#78 Posted by TheSouthernDandy (3906 posts) -

@iAmJohn: I dunno they probably could have done a better job showcasing that game, but there's a lot of people talking about it on both sides of the argument so thats something. Like I said I'm gonna wait to see more of the game before I make up my mind. If it turns out that the majority of the game is her getting beat up, then it's probably not something I'm gonna be into.

#79 Posted by WVUEers (110 posts) -

@Animasta said:

I think the point is that if Lara did not shoot that guy in the head, well... It was just kinda uncomfortable. The fact that she's making a lot of moaning sounds is also a little weird, and can come off as torture porn-ish. I'm not saying it's any more or less misogynistic than games usually are, but still, it's a little more in your face in tomb raider. They're also probably not going to talk about the rape attempt in any decent capacity, rather sweeping it under the rug which is a little insensitive.

Also pretty sure plenty of people were angry about how women were portrayed in Heavy Rain.

edit: Heavy Rain is undoubtedly more misogynistic than Tomb Raider will be

Isn't that the point of every game though? If you don't act something terrible befalls your character, like death, or the world ending, etc. When that action becomes rape or sexual assault it's suddenly too much? If this is in film is this even thought about twice? It's long been a character trait of large villainous gangs to be rape hungry, it's just one more quality that gives them their disgusting image.

I think honestly a lot of this push back comes from the fact that the gaming industry is in fact so male dominated. Gamers and those who work in the industry are now so aware of the image they've had for years with the double d breasted Lara and the booth babes, it's almost as if now there is a much more conscious effort to avoid those sexist pitfalls which is great but it goes to a fault like this. To me I only ask one thing, is this a natural course for these characters and this story? The answer is yes, this isn't throwing in gratuitous nudity or having the main character fight in a bikini the whole game, it's a deplorable action by a villain in order to establish the idea that as a woman on this island Lara is faced with even more dangers than a man may (thusly having to actually over come gender differences quite literally). And all of this is from a fucking implication, and impli-fucking-cation, not the actual action.

I also have to laugh that it makes you uncomfortable to think about what would have happened if she didn't shoot the guy in the head. The over the top violence at this E3 doesn't seem to phase anyone, but a little bit of implied rape or sexual assault from a villain is apparently stomach churning. I guess I kind of find it hard to take critiques on things like this from an industry that lost their shit when the main character from The Last of Us shot a defenseless guy in the face with a shotgun. It's like people are trying to find some sort of line for where taste lies in the gaming industry but it's a fucking joke to try and figure it out.

#80 Posted by CL60 (16906 posts) -
@benson

@CL60 said:

Can people stop replying to Animasta? Everything is sexist to him. Female Shepard being on the flip side of the ME3 cover was sexist to this person.

Hahaha you're still angry about it

Angry? Huh? Alright then. Wasn't even talking about that specific thing.. Pretty much everything is sexist to this person and it's getting old.
#81 Edited by M_Shini (551 posts) -

I haven't really seen much of the Tomb Raider footage or even remember much of it so i have no idea what the rape stuff is coming from, still at the same time all the constant lara getting injured in harsh ways feels kind of overkill sometimes i guess, i don;t necessary care either way when they do that cuz whatever its a game, but every time they show that stuff it just feels weird and forced.

Granted everything they have shown us has been like 15-20 mins or less footage and are obviously very selected moments so i doubt the whole game will be that.

Side note game looks kinda ok, never really cared anything for Tomb raider since like forever so i hope it turns out good or great.

#82 Edited by Animasta (14712 posts) -

@CL60 said:

@benson

@CL60 said:

Can people stop replying to Animasta? Everything is sexist to him. Female Shepard being on the flip side of the ME3 cover was sexist to this person.

Hahaha you're still angry about it

Angry? Huh? Alright then. Wasn't even talking about that specific thing.. Pretty much everything is sexist to this person and it's getting old.

if you had bothered to read the thread I had said that the jury is out to whether this game will be sexist or not, but hey! I know reading's hard :)

#83 Posted by theveej (841 posts) -

A lot of the moaning also happens with male charecter in any game (Uncharted, Gears, fucking Metal Gear...... Snake groans every fucking 2 seconds) so people complaining about that is retarded. I can see why people get uncomfortable with semi rape scenes and the moaning and semi realistic violence with a female protagonist, but that is just you as a viewer not comfortable with this sort of thing nothing wrong with the content.

That being said, people need to grow up. WHAT DO U YOU THINK WILL HAPPEN IF A YOUNG WOMAN TRIES FIGHT HER WAY OUT OF AN ISLAND WITH A BUNCH OF CRAZY ADULT MALE!??! You seriously don't think there would be some attempted rape? You think crazy bad people are above trying to rape an attractive young lady? and from what I have seen there is no actual rape, just attempted rape and that seems pretty natural to me. If you want realism out of a Mature Tomb Raider game that is gritty, this is the kind of shit you gonna get. Look at a movie like Haywire, where I thought Gina Carano did a fantastic job showing how a highly trained woman would be able to fight and beat up a bunch of trained adult male in semi realistic gritty setting. Of course she is going to get the shit beat out of her (140-160 pound women vs 200+ pound man do the math) but that doesn't mean she is "helpless" (and if you watched that movie you know how much ass kicking she delivers to supposedly tough men and how fucking beat up she gets in the process).

Frankly I am sick of tried of watching female protagonist just round house kick and judo throw their way through action movies/games acting the exact same way as 200+ pound male protagonist. It is fucking unrealistic. My first kickboxing instructor was a female pro fighter so I have a lot of respect for females in combat sports, and heck I have been punched/kicked in the face by females more than everyone on this forum put together; however if you are making a realistic mature content with female protagonist fighting hand to hand combat it would look more like something like Tomb Raider or Haywire aka the protagonist should get her ass kicked in the process. (Lara isn't even a trained fighter at the beginning of Tomb Raider, so what do you guys fucking expect?)

Closing argument I can see why people get uncomftorbale about this sort of stuff, but personally if your telling me that your making a semi realistic, mature Tomb Raider game with Lara becoming this bad ass protagonist by the end of the game AND you tell me this is an Island filled with crazy people; then brutal violence, attempted rape and what not SHOULD BE part of the course. I am supper excited to play that game, and frankly think that sort take they have shown for Lara is refreshing and in my opinion needed to change the stereotype of what a female protagonist in a mature action oriented game should be like.

#84 Posted by SpiderCabaret (31 posts) -

It's not sexism or misogyny or anything like that (anyone saying that is being silly-pants), it's just different. At what point in gaming has a woman been so graphically tossed around and beaten and just had a plain ol' shit time? The problem in this case seems to be the concentration of the violence, they're doing a pretty piss poor job of showing anything other than that. Is that really all they can do to make the point they want to make? Can they not showcase fragility in any other way than booting the poor girl around?

People will get over it, but it's so very overt that people are going to talk about it and sometimes they're going to say horrible things about it while they try to figure it out.

#85 Posted by Brodehouse (10072 posts) -

Snake humping the ground tenderly is perfectly okay, though.

#86 Posted by JasonR86 (9742 posts) -

@Brodehouse said:

Snake humping the ground tenderly is perfectly okay, though.

It's ok because he's a guy. A woman can't be touched in any fashion otherwise it's sexist.

#87 Edited by Mikemcn (6996 posts) -

Because videogames are stupid and rape is serious. Also, people assume that by including that you are being entertained by a sequence in which attempted rape happens.

#88 Posted by Animasta (14712 posts) -

@JasonR86 said:

@Brodehouse said:

Snake humping the ground tenderly is perfectly okay, though.

It's ok because he's a guy. A woman can't be touched in any fashion otherwise it's sexist.

totally what everyone was saying, good job

#89 Posted by JasonR86 (9742 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@JasonR86 said:

@Brodehouse said:

Snake humping the ground tenderly is perfectly okay, though.

It's ok because he's a guy. A woman can't be touched in any fashion otherwise it's sexist.

totally what everyone was saying, good job

Close enough for me.

#90 Edited by CornBREDX (5623 posts) -

I think they are referring to the noises shes making, as if that really matters.

Really, people's complaining about this just seems counter to their problem. It was already said by someone before me, but they are just trying to fit women into their world view- regardless if thats opposing this or not- it'd be fine if it was a game about a guy having the shit beat out of him. No one cares about that. For extra safety lets make it a white guy- it's totally cool if us white guys get the hell beat into our face, right?

#91 Posted by Hunter5024 (5809 posts) -

@Brodehouse said:

Snake humping the ground tenderly is perfectly okay, though.

NO. The ground never asked for this.

#92 Posted by bearshamanbro (284 posts) -

It seems other games are getting quite a bit of backlash on their level of violence, but I think Tomb Raider is unique in that the main character is the recipient of the most violence. From the trailer it seems these "hyperrealistic" hardships that Lara goes through are a main selling point and meant to stimulate the player. At the same time I think it would hard to argue against Lara being an idealized/sexualized avatar, which is a deliberate design choice that is fair to critique. I don't think there is bad intent, but I think the game creators are dealing with some elements that shouldn't be mixed up and/or they don't have the ability to skillfully navigate them.

#93 Posted by Snowsprite (105 posts) -

The difference between Heavy Rain and Tomb Raider is that the events in the former appear to be a part of a genuine scenario with a specific literary purpose, and the latter comes off as bizarre anime torture fetishism.

#94 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4851 posts) -

@bearshamanbro: Anyone who says they'd like to stare at ugly people for 10+ hours are lying through their teeth. We use idealized versions of humanity in fiction because it appeals to our imagination. They are avatars and representatives of what we'd like to be. Bitching about that is fighting human nature. Let me know how that works out for you.

#95 Posted by NTM (7479 posts) -

@JasonR86 said:

@NTM said:

Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooobs

I bet she has back problems.

Maybe, there are a couple of girls I've known in the past that had back problems for the same reason.

#96 Posted by PSNgamesun (411 posts) -

Males dont know how to depict females n vice versa their only a few n these guys aint it, that simple

they are trying to make Laura a badass so the only way to do it is like most HARDCORE action

films n make them go through hell n then they shall become badass LMAO

#97 Posted by Turambar (6810 posts) -
@bearshamanbro said:

It seems other games are getting quite a bit of backlash on their level of violence, but I think Tomb Raider is unique in that the main character is the recipient of the most violence. From the trailer it seems these "hyperrealistic" hardships that Lara goes through are a main selling point and meant to stimulate the player. At the same time I think it would hard to argue against Lara being an idealized/sexualized avatar, which is a deliberate design choice that is fair to critique. I don't think there is bad intent, but I think the game creators are dealing with some elements that shouldn't be mixed up and/or they don't have the ability to skillfully navigate them.

I do feel that the game is, to a certain extent, trying to move away from the classic notion of Laura Croft as an icon of female sexuality in games, but a reputation that pervasive is something very hard to struggle against.
 
@Snowsprite said:

The difference between Heavy Rain and Tomb Raider is that the events in the former appear to be a part of a genuine scenario with a specific literary purpose, and the latter comes off as bizarre anime torture fetishism.

Where in the world does anime figure into this?  Though I would agree the focus of the conflict in the game does seem to fetishize the amount of physical trauma that's laid on Laura Croft.  While it's not inherently sexist, that in of itself does warrant some critique, though not thoughtless rampant criticism.
#98 Posted by Bourbon_Warrior (4523 posts) -

@Dagbiker said:

@Bourbon_Warrior said:

I dont get it. Its just because its a womans voice instead of a man. Drake, Marcus Fennix, Isaac Clark ETC all let out the same sounds

To be fair, if it was a mans voice coming out of that body, i think people would be complaining about something else.

That would be great!

#99 Posted by JasonR86 (9742 posts) -

@PSNgamesun said:

Males dont know how to depict females...

I like how you assume the developers are all men.

...sexist asshole.

#100 Edited by Sooty (8082 posts) -

The most offensive thing about this game is that it's called Tomb Raider. It's obviously nothing like those games.

I would rather see a new IP than developers constantly digging up desolate franchises in order to try and force some nostalgia out of people. Gaming industry!

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