Could someone explain to me where the rape stuff is coming from?

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#101 Posted by bearshamanbro (284 posts) -

@CornBREDX: You make a very good point. If it was just an average white guy very little people would care. Your average white guy is about as placeholder/neutral as you can get for characters. On the other hand, we make him look like the Pope (swap out whatever famous person here you want) and you are making some type of statement that means something. The design of the avatar changes the interpretation and needs to be handled carefully because it can carry powerful meanings.

#102 Posted by TaliciaDragonsong (8698 posts) -

I've seen nothing of the sort in any case.

I don't want to insult men here but butch mercenary dudes on a island with a 'hot' girl like Lara.
Yeah, its a possibility.
 
I'd imagine if it was a male lead however they'd just torture him to death, like cutting of his manhood or something else.

#103 Posted by bearshamanbro (284 posts) -

@Oldirtybearon: Oh, I'm not against attractive/idealized characters at all. I'm just saying that if you are combining a sexualized character and hyperrealistic violence, you are probably going to have a combination of elements that is fair game to some level of critique.

#104 Posted by charlie_victor_bravo (944 posts) -

Remember when games were about fun and not-rape?

Yeah, I would like to see Tomb Raider go to more fun, witty Uncharted route. I am not looking forward to play as woman who is trapped in the Gritty Rape Island.

#105 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4594 posts) -

@bearshamanbro said:

@Oldirtybearon: Oh, I'm not against attractive/idealized characters at all. I'm just saying that if you are combining a sexualized character and hyperrealistic violence, you are probably going to have a combination of elements that is fair game to some level of critique.

I agree. Your original statement sounded more like a condemnation (or more shittily, finger wagging) of Lara's attractiveness. That's what spurned my comment.

As for the nature of seeing a pretty young woman being savaged the way Lara Croft has been, I think it speaks far more to the predominantly male audience that they can't stand to see this stuff. It makes them uncomfortable because males, inherently, do not like seeing women hurt. It's an instinctual reaction left over from our hunter-gatherer beginnings. It's natural. My surprise at the reaction to Tomb Raider has more to do with how many people haven't realized this.

As for the critique you offer, I think we need a clear distinction between "sexualized" and "sexy." I wouldn't call the Lara Croft in this latest Tomb Raider "sexualized" at all. She's a woman. She's attractive. She's also dressed in setting-appropriate clothing and it's not like that DS Parasite Eve game where the more she gets banged up, the more skin she reveals. If anything, this is probably the most deft handling of a sexy female protagonist I've seen in gaming outside of Alyx Vance. And even then she was little more than a couple of smiles and an AI script. I'd hardly call her a character at all.

My point is, nothing about Tomb Raider appears sexualized to me. Of course neither of us have even played it yet, so the full game could have more in store than either of us believe, but considering the track record of content shown so far (that being action heavy, brutal depictions of, well, survival), I don't think we have to worry about Tomb Raider falling into the objectified/sexualized pitfall most female protagonists and characters do in this medium.

#106 Posted by Draugen (628 posts) -

@charlie_victor_bravo: Good times. :)

#107 Posted by Harkat (1100 posts) -

@Oldirtybearon said:

males, inherently, do not like seeing women hurt. It's an instinctual reaction left over from our hunter-gatherer beginnings. It's natural. My surprise at the reaction to Tomb Raider has more to do with how many people haven't realized this.

Yes. Anyone remember Dead Space 2? The horrible shit Isaac has to go through, not to mention the death scenes, in that are far worse and more exploitative than anything here. Sure, there was no possible sexual assault, but that's kinda realistic given the situation, as many have said.

It baffles me how when a female character gets more beaten up (IN ACTION SCENARIOS, PEOPLE) than females usually get beaten up in film/games, people call it sexist or misogynist. If anything, it's a step towards equality no? Doesn't it imply that women can take it just as much as men?

#108 Edited by Oldirtybearon (4594 posts) -

@Harkat said:

@Oldirtybearon said:

males, inherently, do not like seeing women hurt. It's an instinctual reaction left over from our hunter-gatherer beginnings. It's natural. My surprise at the reaction to Tomb Raider has more to do with how many people haven't realized this.

Yes. Anyone remember Dead Space 2? The horrible shit Isaac has to go through, not to mention the death scenes, in that are far worse and more exploitative than anything here. Sure, there was no possible sexual assault, but that's kinda realistic given the situation, as many have said.

It baffles me how when a female character gets more beaten up (IN ACTION SCENARIOS, PEOPLE) than females usually get beaten up in film/games, people call it sexist or misogynist. If anything, it's a step towards equality no? Doesn't it imply that women can take it just as much as men?

When people speak of equality, it's generally more to do with pay, opportunity, and things of that nature. When it comes to violence committed to or by, that's where equality stops and chivalry rears its head. It's contradictory in nature, but it's but one of many dualities to our culture that most people can't wrap their heads around.

#109 Edited by sBlacksmith (77 posts) -

I'll lose my giantbomb posting virginity by giving my 0,04 Brl on the subject:

It is very much wrong to judge just a piece of a work of art.

The author has said plenty of times that this is a game about Baby-Lara becoming actual Lara Croft. She is the portray of a weak woman? Yes.. does it mean all women are weak? Absolutely no.

The fact Lara is not born strong to me only reinforces the idea that 'all women have the same potential as the strongest male's potential'.

I have to take that, the somewhat shocking and demeaning start has a reason in the narrative, to be something to be overcome.

Ps. Nice to meet you all!

#110 Posted by PSNgamesun (394 posts) -

@JasonR86: stop it dude like every one here is not assuming that males dominate the gaming world so PLEASE sexist ME get the FUCK out of here cause go learn what the term means FUCkface n IF AM ONE based on my (trying to be funny)comment then everyone in this fucking FORUM including YOU are one

#111 Posted by Kazona (3059 posts) -

People who can't handle female characters in mature games should just stick to play Viva Pinata. Then again, if there's a pink Pinata in there, and it gets hurt somehow, they'll probably cry rape as well.

In other words: stop being a fucking pussy.

#112 Posted by xaLieNxGrEyx (2605 posts) -

I wish I was pretentious and wise enough to hate on Heavy Rain. I guess I haven`t played enough xbox :(

#113 Posted by Animasta (14648 posts) -

@xaLieNxGrEyx said:

I wish I was pretentious and wise enough to hate on Heavy Rain. I guess I haven`t played enough xbox :(

heavy rain would be just as bad on the xbox sorry.

It's terribly written, full of plot holes, etc.

#114 Posted by phantomzxro (1565 posts) -

Tomb raider is getting a little too much of a bad rap with the rape and sexual harassment stuff. I don't think that is a big deal from what we saw but i do agree on the side that they are laying the hurt on her pretty thick.

I know she is trying to survive and bad stuff is happening i got it already. Lets just hope it's only because we are seeing clips that takes all this out of context and in the game it will be a little more even.

#115 Posted by Giantstalker (1532 posts) -

@Kazona said:

In other words: stop being a fucking pussy.

Basically the solution to everything really, listen to these words people.

#116 Posted by xaLieNxGrEyx (2605 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@xaLieNxGrEyx said:

I wish I was pretentious and wise enough to hate on Heavy Rain. I guess I haven`t played enough xbox :(

heavy rain would be just as bad on the xbox sorry.

It's terribly written, full of plot holes, etc.

I believe you interpreted my intentions under a slightly misguided understanding.

Also I disagree with the Heavy Rain hate. I have the platinum, and 98% of these ``plot holes`` people like to bring up so much don`t even exist.

The one where the father wakes up from sleep walking with the the origami figure is the `best` one. It holds no true explanation.

#117 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4594 posts) -

@xaLieNxGrEyx said:

@Animasta said:

@xaLieNxGrEyx said:

I wish I was pretentious and wise enough to hate on Heavy Rain. I guess I haven`t played enough xbox :(

heavy rain would be just as bad on the xbox sorry.

It's terribly written, full of plot holes, etc.

I believe you interpreted my intentions under a slightly misguided understanding.

Also I disagree with the Heavy Rain hate. I have the platinum, and 98% of these ``plot holes`` people like to bring up so much don`t even exist.

The one where the father wakes up from sleep walking with the the origami figure is the `best` one. It holds no true explanation.

The Origami Killer. That. Made. No. Fucking. Sense.

The game was fantastic up until that reveal. It was so dumb and out of left field I just shook my head and continued on.

#118 Posted by High_Nunez (218 posts) -

The academic crowd has taken an interest in games, and they brought their politically correct sensibilities with them. It's funny for me because I didn't really start thinking about it til people started complaining about Lara Croft being overly sexualized; here we are years later, and a stink is being made about Lara Croft again. In my humble opinion, I don't see the problem. Bad guys acting like bad guys towards women isn't exactly a stretch, and if there is a line over the whole rape, or implied threat of rape thing that people are so uncomfortable with that they can't tolerate it, this isn't even close to mine.

As far as equality goes though, how has anyone failed to mention the abject abuse inflicted on Snake in Snake Eater? Motherfucker loses an eye for crying out loud!

#119 Posted by xaLieNxGrEyx (2605 posts) -

@Oldirtybearon:

Made perfect sense you must have been paying attention to a different game.

#120 Posted by willyleeks (12 posts) -

@bearshamanbro said:

@Oldirtybearon: Oh, I'm not against attractive/idealized characters at all. I'm just saying that if you are combining a sexualized character and hyperrealistic violence, you are probably going to have a combination of elements that is fair game to some level of critique.

This.

It's all about context. No-one is saying rape is good. It doesn't need to be said. So the problem lies in why so much violence (and implied violence) against a woman is taking place. If it's to make the game 'gritty' or 'dark' or 'realistic', I'd suggest that those things could be achieved without it. You really don't have to have a woman get beaten up or raped to let your audience know she's tough, or is in a dangerous situation. Hence all the fuss about Lara's ordeals - what are we accomplishing by having her go through all of this in front of us?

The fact that she's attractive as well is not irrelevant; even though this is a reboot Lara has a history as a sex symbol, and that just doesn't sit well with all the violence.

#121 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4594 posts) -

@xaLieNxGrEyx said:

@Oldirtybearon:

Made perfect sense you must have been paying attention to a different game.

Oh of course, because Heavy Rain was absolute perfection in storytelling. It wasn't at all a great game that fell apart from Shelby's reveal onward. The storytellers outright lied to the player. At no point at all during Shelby's investigation (you know, when we controlled him) could he have done the shit the game says he did. Hell, he murdered the watch maker and we were controlling him when that was supposed to have happened. If they had foreshadowed Shelby being the Origami Killer, that would've been one thing. It would've been brilliant, in fact, but the truth of the matter is that it was a last second reveal that confused the player. It wasn't some shocking twist, it was laughably executed in order to fool the player. A-ha! you were playing as the Origami Killer this whole time! What? Foreshadowing? What? Clues? No no no, we're just saying he was the Origami Killer because Ethan being the killer is too damn obvious.

Indigo Prophecy suffered from the same problem. It was an awesome supernatural thriller right up until the protagonist (Lucas, I think his name was) becomes a goddamn zombie and gets super powers. Then the Internet becomes sentient and tries to destroy humanity. That too was so out of left field it was laughable. I don't know if you noticed this, but there's a trend here.

#122 Posted by TentPole (1858 posts) -

@Oldirtybearon said:

@xaLieNxGrEyx said:

@Oldirtybearon:

Made perfect sense you must have been paying attention to a different game.

Oh of course, because Heavy Rain was absolute perfection in storytelling. It wasn't at all a great game that fell apart from Shelby's reveal onward. The storytellers outright lied to the player. At no point at all during Shelby's investigation (you know, when we controlled him) could he have done the shit the game says he did. Hell, he murdered the watch maker and we were controlling him when that was supposed to have happened.

Plus the writing was just bad. Regardless of overall plot deficiency.

#123 Posted by TentPole (1858 posts) -

@willyleeks said:

@bearshamanbro said:

@Oldirtybearon: Oh, I'm not against attractive/idealized characters at all. I'm just saying that if you are combining a sexualized character and hyperrealistic violence, you are probably going to have a combination of elements that is fair game to some level of critique.

This.

It's all about context. No-one is saying rape is good. It doesn't need to be said. So the problem lies in why so much violence (and implied violence) against a woman is taking place. If it's to make the game 'gritty' or 'dark' or 'realistic', I'd suggest that those things could be achieved without it. You really don't have to have a woman get beaten up or raped to let your audience know she's tough, or is in a dangerous situation. Hence all the fuss about Lara's ordeals - what are we accomplishing by having her go through all of this in front of us?

The fact that she's attractive as well is not irrelevant; even though this is a reboot Lara has a history as a sex symbol, and that just doesn't sit well with all the violence.

Seriously guys it is fucked up to hurt the pretty girls. I am only comfortable with brutal violence against ugly chicks.

#124 Posted by Milkman (16527 posts) -
@PSNgamesun said:

@JasonR86: stop it dude like every one here is not assuming that males dominate the gaming world so PLEASE sexist ME get the FUCK out of here cause go learn what the term means FUCkface n IF AM ONE based on my (trying to be funny)comment then everyone in this fucking FORUM including YOU are one

Is this some kind of code? 
 
PLEASE ME FUCK FUCK IF AM ONE FORUM YOU 
 
#e3mysteries
#125 Edited by Grimhild (721 posts) -

@believer258 said:

*crosses arms*

I ain't sayin' shit on the matter until I hear the perspective of a woman or two, 'cause a bunch of men don't have quite the same say as to whether it's misogynistic or not as a bunch of women do mainly because they're, well, women.

Seriously, all I ever hear complaining about misogyny when a new game like this comes out are men. Fellows. Dudes. Yes, it's uncomfortable to watch. I hope you never get to see, say, Schindler's List.

On a different note, Nathan Drake and Isaac Clarke are at least two male video game protagonists who do a lot of grunting and moaning, and I'm pretty sure that Lara's older incarnations did some of that as well. At the end of Dead Space 2 Isaac Clarke has a bloody needle go through his eye and later gets an arrow spike thingy shot through both his hand and his upper chest; this isn't to mention all the really gory death animations. Nathan Drake gets shot and has to climb out of a falling train in Uncharted 2. You're telling me that men in games don't ever go through some crazy abuse?

The only issue I had with the trailer was how forced and weird her shrieks sounded. Not the fact that she was doing it, but it just sounded extremely over-acted. I understand that this is supposed to be the story that shapes Lara into what she will become, and that she's far more fragile and "innocent" than she's portrayed later in the continuity, but it sounded very grating and unnatural to me.

As far as the "sexual assault" scene everyone's blowing up about, it's no better or worse than what Hollywood provides on a regular basis. Does that make it ok? That's completely up to each individual that watches it. It's attempting to simultaneously tap into the type of male psychology that is attracted to images of strong women that overcome a physically superior attacker (which in turn plays into a number of other fetishes that aren't worth anyone's time to type out and read since everyone knows their own libido and whether or not it's appealing to them), while also playing towards the type of female psychology that needs validation for strength in the figures of modern media.

Personally, I couldn't care less since it's the protagonist of a specific, singular, fictional video game story, and this is part of the storytelling. But, I'm also unopposed to women serving in combat roles, so take that for what it's worth. That doesn't mean that I think it should happen in most cases, for various reasons such as, but not limited to, male distraction and the inability of most people to separate "female" from "soldier."

Long story short; everyone's got their own idea of what a woman should be, and this is me, not giving a f*ck.

#126 Posted by jjnen (660 posts) -

Naughty Dog or whoever should announce that Drake is literally raped in the Uncharted so they could get the spotlight away from pretty girls getting hurt and growing up to become heroines.

#127 Posted by PSNgamesun (394 posts) -

@Milkman: HAHAHA thats actually really funny dude didn't mean it like that but still lmao non the less

#128 Posted by xaLieNxGrEyx (2605 posts) -

@Oldirtybearon:

I`ve said this before and I`ll say it again

You are not in control of Shelby when he kills the clock store owner. The scene cuts to the mother who lost her kid looking at a small music box.

I`ve seen the scene like 8 times to get the platinum, you don`t have control of Shelby during the time he hits Manfred.

It`s not perfect and it could have been better but the way people talk about it is disgusting.

Oh and also Watchmen hid the reveal of the ``villain`` until the final moments as well and it`s regarded as one of the greatest books ever made.

Just because it`s a game and you played the character means you`re entitled to some sort of hint before the reveal. The game was fine, the writing was decent, voice acting wasn`t horrible and the multiple endings all made sense and were satisfying.

Maybe in Beyond Two Souls there will be cover based shooting and the locusts will come bursting out of e-holes and no one will complain.

#129 Edited by Meowshi (2911 posts) -

@willyleeks said:

@bearshamanbro said:

@Oldirtybearon: Oh, I'm not against attractive/idealized characters at all. I'm just saying that if you are combining a sexualized character and hyperrealistic violence, you are probably going to have a combination of elements that is fair game to some level of critique.

This.

It's all about context. No-one is saying rape is good. It doesn't need to be said. So the problem lies in why so much violence (and implied violence) against a woman is taking place. If it's to make the game 'gritty' or 'dark' or 'realistic', I'd suggest that those things could be achieved without it. You really don't have to have a woman get beaten up or raped to let your audience know she's tough, or is in a dangerous situation. Hence all the fuss about Lara's ordeals - what are we accomplishing by having her go through all of this in front of us?

The fact that she's attractive as well is not irrelevant; even though this is a reboot Lara has a history as a sex symbol, and that just doesn't sit well with all the violence.

The game seems no more violent and exploitative than games like God of War, Kane and Lynch, or Max Payne. Most people seem to enjoy this "hyperrealistic" video game violence, and that's why it's included in the game. It gets attention, it's something that mainstream gamers gravitate to, and it clearly illustrates a departure for the franchise. This excites people. Could Max Payne be done without the slow-motion head-exploding? Sure. Would Kratos still look tough if they removed the final button-prompt death animations? Sure. Would these games be as visceral or exciting? Probably not.

I simply cannot agree with your last statement. The character, from what I saw from the trailer, is barely sexualized. She's attractive, but that's it. No more so than Nathan Drake. She is dressed modestly, unlike most video games heroines, and she also isn't using her feminine wiles to attract and murder enemies. I believe that If she did not have a history as a sex symbol, no one would be suggesting that the violence she was experiencing in this new game was being sexualized. You're arguing that new things can't be done in the franchise, because of the character's history, despite the fact that this is a new vision for the character and a new perspective. This new Lara is not meant to be an overly-sexualized character is not meant to appeal to the same demographic, and is not meant to do the same things. To me, the history of the character could not be more irrelevant.

@TentPole said:

@willyleeks said:

@bearshamanbro said:

@Oldirtybearon: Oh, I'm not against attractive/idealized characters at all. I'm just saying that if you are combining a sexualized character and hyperrealistic violence, you are probably going to have a combination of elements that is fair game to some level of critique.

This.

It's all about context. No-one is saying rape is good. It doesn't need to be said. So the problem lies in why so much violence (and implied violence) against a woman is taking place. If it's to make the game 'gritty' or 'dark' or 'realistic', I'd suggest that those things could be achieved without it. You really don't have to have a woman get beaten up or raped to let your audience know she's tough, or is in a dangerous situation. Hence all the fuss about Lara's ordeals - what are we accomplishing by having her go through all of this in front of us?

The fact that she's attractive as well is not irrelevant; even though this is a reboot Lara has a history as a sex symbol, and that just doesn't sit well with all the violence.

Seriously guys it is fucked up to hurt the pretty girls. I am only comfortable with brutal violence against ugly chicks.

This post is better than mines. Why did I even bother. ;_;

#130 Edited by believer258 (11635 posts) -

@PSNgamesun said:

@JasonR86: stop it dude like every one here is not assuming that males dominate the gaming world so PLEASE sexist ME get the FUCK out of here cause go learn what the term means FUCkface n IF AM ONE based on my (trying to be funny)comment then everyone in this fucking FORUM including YOU are one

English, motherfucker, do you speak it?

@xaLieNxGrEyx said:

I wish I was pretentious and wise enough to hate on Heavy Rain. I guess I haven`t played enough xbox :(

Heavy Rain isn't on the Xbox.

EDIT: Unless you were being a cynical, sarcastic, or something along those lines.

#131 Posted by xaLieNxGrEyx (2605 posts) -

@believer258:

I was implying sarcasm.

#132 Posted by SethPhotopoulos (5108 posts) -

I think when people talk about moans and groans that's a bit far. All characters moan and groan. When you get into the sexual assault it's a bit more complicated. Lara is on an island full of bad people, a few of those people might be rapists. Lara is an attractive female character, they were probably thinking what situations are more likely to happen to attractive women than men. Sexual assault was probably one of the top answers. They probably felt like if they didn't do something like that she would just be like a male protagonist without a penis. Men and women are different. They have different experiences and biological makeups. It's hard to know how that stuff will play into Lara's character later on based on what we have seen. It's something that we'd have to wait and see the final product to know if it's handled in a mature way. Trailers lie.

Another complicated issue is Lara getting put in situations where she get's the shit beat out of her. I can name other games that have had that happen to male characters. In MGS3 there was a character named Colonel Volgin who would sadistically beat his lovers and people he was interrogating. Big Boss get's captured and a lengthy torture sequence is shown where he get's the shit beat out of him, doused in water, and electrocuted. He then get's his eye shot out. He continues the rest of the game with one eye and even when you go in POV mode the right side of the screen is blurred. In MGS3 there is even a game mechanic where you must tend to your wounds, if you choose to go "naked" Snake is shown with bandages all over him. In MGS4 Old Snake is getting the shit kicked out of him the entire game. He suffers from seizures, he is forced to continually take drugs, the left side of his face is disfigured in a fire, by the end of the game Snake is literally breathing through an oxygen tank when there is down time, after the fight with Screaming Mantis he stumbles his way through the last hour or so of the game trying desperately to finish his mission, then this happens:

Don't even get me started on what Raiden had to go through.

It's all about context and in what E3 is going to show us you won't find it. It's not something that can properly be discussed until the game comes out. Until then all we can do is play the guessing game and that won't get us anywhere if we are talking about Tomb Raider.

#133 Posted by PSNgamesun (394 posts) -

@believer258: nope its my second language dude hahaha n there is always the guy who questions intelligence just to make his sorry ass kool lol

#134 Posted by AlexW00d (6185 posts) -

Good to see how the internet still doesn't understand the meaning of misogynistic.

#135 Posted by believer258 (11635 posts) -

@xaLieNxGrEyx said:

@believer258:

I was implying sarcasm.

I realized that a few minutes after I posted.

@Grimhild said:

@believer258 said:

*crosses arms*

I ain't sayin' shit on the matter until I hear the perspective of a woman or two, 'cause a bunch of men don't have quite the same say as to whether it's misogynistic or not as a bunch of women do mainly because they're, well, women.

Seriously, all I ever hear complaining about misogyny when a new game like this comes out are men. Fellows. Dudes. Yes, it's uncomfortable to watch. I hope you never get to see, say, Schindler's List.

On a different note, Nathan Drake and Isaac Clarke are at least two male video game protagonists who do a lot of grunting and moaning, and I'm pretty sure that Lara's older incarnations did some of that as well. At the end of Dead Space 2 Isaac Clarke has a bloody needle go through his eye and later gets an arrow spike thingy shot through both his hand and his upper chest; this isn't to mention all the really gory death animations. Nathan Drake gets shot and has to climb out of a falling train in Uncharted 2. You're telling me that men in games don't ever go through some crazy abuse?

The only issue I had with the trailer was how forced and weird her shrieks sounded. Not the fact that she was doing it, but it just sounded extremely over-acted. I understand that this is supposed to be the story that shapes Lara into she will become, and that she's far more fragile and "innocent" than she's portrayed later in the continuity, but it sounded very grating and unnatural to me.

As far as the "sexual assault" scene everyone's blowing up about, it's no better or worse than what Hollywood provides on a regular basis. Does that make it ok? That's completely up to each individual that watches it. It's attempting to simultaneously tap into the type of male psychology that is attracted to images of strong women that overcome a physically superior attacker (which in turn plays into a number of other fetishes that aren't worth anyone's time to type out and read since everyone knows their own libido and whether or not it's appealing to them), while also playing towards the type of female psychology that needs validation for strength in the figures of modern media.

Personally, I couldn't care less since it's the protagonist of a specific, singular, fictional video game story, and this is part of the storytelling. But, I'm also unopposed to women serving in combat roles, so take that for what it's worth. That doesn't mean that I think it should happen in most cases, for various reasons such as, but not limited to, male distraction and the inability of most people to separate "female" from "soldier."

Long story short; everyone's got their own idea of what a woman should be, and this is me, not giving a f*ck.

And after 7 pages, which I'm just going to assume are chock full of unnecessary bile, I finally get a female perspective. One who gives no fucks, but hey, there's one, and it's a well-done explanation of giving no fucks. Thanks for replying!

#136 Posted by sBlacksmith (77 posts) -

Imagine if a game portrayed an homosexual on heterosexual implied rape attempt.. the shitstorm it would bring..

I feel that gamers don't want game developers going for more complex stories, or messing with certain feelings.. I have seen plenty of gamers complaining about some games being too scary that they 'didn't had fun playing' (Even not that scary stuff, like Silent Hill.).. so they will fuel any kind of bashing of developers that try that kind of stuff.

And the bigger issue is that, in a situation such as this, real abusive content goes by unnoticed in the noise cloud.

#137 Posted by believer258 (11635 posts) -

@PSNgamesun said:

@believer258: nope its my second language dude hahaha n there is always the guy who questions intelligence just to make his sorry ass kool lol

Ha, no, I'd like to be able to understand what I'm trying to read.

Even if it is your second language, can't you spell a little better? Use periods at least? Maybe some capitalization? There are other people here with English as a second language and they all have grammar and spelling a million times better than yours.

#138 Edited by ChaosTony (102 posts) -

@believer258 said:

*crosses arms*

I ain't sayin' shit on the matter until I hear the perspective of a woman or two, 'cause a bunch of men don't have quite the same say as to whether it's misogynistic or not as a bunch of women do mainly because they're, well, women.

Seriously, all I ever hear complaining about misogyny when a new game like this comes out are men. Fellows. Dudes. Yes, it's uncomfortable to watch. I hope you never get to see, say, Schindler's List.

On a different note, Nathan Drake and Isaac Clarke are at least two male video game protagonists who do a lot of grunting and moaning, and I'm pretty sure that Lara's older incarnations did some of that as well. At the end of Dead Space 2 Isaac Clarke has a bloody needle go through his eye and later gets an arrow spike thingy shot through both his hand and his upper chest; this isn't to mention all the really gory death animations. Nathan Drake gets shot and has to climb out of a falling train in Uncharted 2. You're telling me that men in games don't ever go through some crazy abuse?

Well what most will bring up is the fact that there is never a male character who is sexualized. I think this is true, but I think the reason is that the MAJORITY of gamers are straight males. Gaming is a hard business with millions of dollars on the line for some games. Do game companies want to risk so much and possibly alienate their main demographic, in order to level things out? I think we need someone to, but I think it should be the exception, not the rule(at first.) If one good game comes out that breaks the mold and sexualizes men or refrains from sexualizing women, then maybe the industry can safely move towards equality.

I know it's not a great solution, I don't know if it's even the best solution, but like I said: Millions of dollars are on the line, and the fact is, sex sells.

#139 Posted by dudeglove (7687 posts) -

Hands up any of you that's actually touched a girl.

#140 Edited by Grimhild (721 posts) -

@ChaosTony said:

@believer258 said:

*crosses arms*

I ain't sayin' shit on the matter until I hear the perspective of a woman or two, 'cause a bunch of men don't have quite the same say as to whether it's misogynistic or not as a bunch of women do mainly because they're, well, women.

Seriously, all I ever hear complaining about misogyny when a new game like this comes out are men. Fellows. Dudes. Yes, it's uncomfortable to watch. I hope you never get to see, say, Schindler's List.

On a different note, Nathan Drake and Isaac Clarke are at least two male video game protagonists who do a lot of grunting and moaning, and I'm pretty sure that Lara's older incarnations did some of that as well. At the end of Dead Space 2 Isaac Clarke has a bloody needle go through his eye and later gets an arrow spike thingy shot through both his hand and his upper chest; this isn't to mention all the really gory death animations. Nathan Drake gets shot and has to climb out of a falling train in Uncharted 2. You're telling me that men in games don't ever go through some crazy abuse?

Well what most will bring up is the fact that there is never a male character who is sexualized. I think this is true, but I think the reason is that the MAJORITY of gamers are straight males. Gaming is a hard business with millions of dollars on the line for some games. Do game companies want to risk so much and possibly alienate their main demographic, in order to level things out? I think we need someone to, but I think it should be the exception, not the rule(at first.) If one good game comes out that breaks the mold and sexualizes or refrains from sexualizing women, then maybe the industry can safely move towards equality.

I know it's not a great solution, I don't know if it's even the best solution, but like I said: Millions of dollars are on the line, and the fact is, sex sells.

A majority of male characters would make marvelous male models. Sorry, just saying.

EDIT: Case in point:

#141 Posted by MideonNViscera (2257 posts) -

When you've never had sex before, you have strange ideas regarding women. That is how this weirdness occurs. By weirdness I don't mean rape, I mean people seeing rape where this is none haha

#142 Posted by sBlacksmith (77 posts) -

There's plenty of male sexualization in games. Males are often portrayed as fuck machines that will fuck any woman who gives him any minor amount of attention in return and expect no further involvement.

It's just too complicated to perceive this as sexualization because of how we see males. Lots of liberal-thinking equal rights defenders will claim that being a fuck machine is a compliment to a male and that equal rights means that females being fuck machines should be a compliment too. It's offensive how EVERYONE accepts that all males have to be happy by getting any/random sex at all times..

BUT, I don't think this discussion should go into that direction.. I'm not claiming it's ok to be sexist toward females because games are sexist toward males too..

I don't think the new tomb raider is sexist at all.

#143 Edited by Meowshi (2911 posts) -

@ChaosTony said:

@believer258 said:

*crosses arms*

I ain't sayin' shit on the matter until I hear the perspective of a woman or two, 'cause a bunch of men don't have quite the same say as to whether it's misogynistic or not as a bunch of women do mainly because they're, well, women.

Seriously, all I ever hear complaining about misogyny when a new game like this comes out are men. Fellows. Dudes. Yes, it's uncomfortable to watch. I hope you never get to see, say, Schindler's List.

On a different note, Nathan Drake and Isaac Clarke are at least two male video game protagonists who do a lot of grunting and moaning, and I'm pretty sure that Lara's older incarnations did some of that as well. At the end of Dead Space 2 Isaac Clarke has a bloody needle go through his eye and later gets an arrow spike thingy shot through both his hand and his upper chest; this isn't to mention all the really gory death animations. Nathan Drake gets shot and has to climb out of a falling train in Uncharted 2. You're telling me that men in games don't ever go through some crazy abuse?

Well what most will bring up is the fact that there is never a male character who is sexualized.

Don't you think the fact that you are a straight male, makes it difficult for you to suggest this? Men and women are sexualized in different ways. Just because male protagonists don't typically bare their midriffs and poke out their lips, doesn't mean they aren't sexualized. Most male protagonists are incredibly attractive and have a musculature which is incongrous with their profession/lifestyle. Most male protagonists are very charming and witty; never saying the wrong thing and always a competent flirt. This image may not do much for you, but for someone it might be incredibly tantalizing.

#144 Posted by ChaosTony (102 posts) -

@Grimhild said:

@ChaosTony said:

@believer258 said:

*crosses arms*

I ain't sayin' shit on the matter until I hear the perspective of a woman or two, 'cause a bunch of men don't have quite the same say as to whether it's misogynistic or not as a bunch of women do mainly because they're, well, women.

Seriously, all I ever hear complaining about misogyny when a new game like this comes out are men. Fellows. Dudes. Yes, it's uncomfortable to watch. I hope you never get to see, say, Schindler's List.

On a different note, Nathan Drake and Isaac Clarke are at least two male video game protagonists who do a lot of grunting and moaning, and I'm pretty sure that Lara's older incarnations did some of that as well. At the end of Dead Space 2 Isaac Clarke has a bloody needle go through his eye and later gets an arrow spike thingy shot through both his hand and his upper chest; this isn't to mention all the really gory death animations. Nathan Drake gets shot and has to climb out of a falling train in Uncharted 2. You're telling me that men in games don't ever go through some crazy abuse?

Well what most will bring up is the fact that there is never a male character who is sexualized. I think this is true, but I think the reason is that the MAJORITY of gamers are straight males. Gaming is a hard business with millions of dollars on the line for some games. Do game companies want to risk so much and possibly alienate their main demographic, in order to level things out? I think we need someone to, but I think it should be the exception, not the rule(at first.) If one good game comes out that breaks the mold and sexualizes or refrains from sexualizing women, then maybe the industry can safely move towards equality.

I know it's not a great solution, I don't know if it's even the best solution, but like I said: Millions of dollars are on the line, and the fact is, sex sells.

A majority of male characters would make marvelous male models. Sorry, just saying.

EDIT: Case in point:

You don't get what "sexualize" means. Being attractive doesn't mean they're sexualized. Show me a mainstream game where a guy wears a banana hammock/half-shirt or something similar for any reason other to convey the "viking" trope.

Look, I don't personally have a problem with it because I understand it's the nature of the business, but don't tell me that male and female characters are equally objectified.

#145 Posted by ChaosTony (102 posts) -

@Meowshi said:

@ChaosTony said:

@believer258 said:

*crosses arms*

I ain't sayin' shit on the matter until I hear the perspective of a woman or two, 'cause a bunch of men don't have quite the same say as to whether it's misogynistic or not as a bunch of women do mainly because they're, well, women.

Seriously, all I ever hear complaining about misogyny when a new game like this comes out are men. Fellows. Dudes. Yes, it's uncomfortable to watch. I hope you never get to see, say, Schindler's List.

On a different note, Nathan Drake and Isaac Clarke are at least two male video game protagonists who do a lot of grunting and moaning, and I'm pretty sure that Lara's older incarnations did some of that as well. At the end of Dead Space 2 Isaac Clarke has a bloody needle go through his eye and later gets an arrow spike thingy shot through both his hand and his upper chest; this isn't to mention all the really gory death animations. Nathan Drake gets shot and has to climb out of a falling train in Uncharted 2. You're telling me that men in games don't ever go through some crazy abuse?

Well what most will bring up is the fact that there is never a male character who is sexualized.

Don't you think the fact that you are a straight male, makes it difficult for you to suggest this? Men and women are sexualized in different ways. Just because male protagonists don't typically bare their midriffs and poke out their lips, doesn't mean they aren't sexualized. Most male protagonists are incredibly attractive and have a musculature which is incongrous with their profession/lifestyle. Most male protagonists are very charming and witty; never saying the wrong thing and always a competent flirt. This image may not do much for you, but for someone it might be incredibly tantalizing.

Again, being attractive doesn't equal sexualization. Oh look, Solid Snake can take off his shirt(and how is that not congruous with his procession/lifestyle?). Show me a game that explicitly sexualizes a man by default. The only things I can come up with are from a few Japanese games where the men are shirtless for seemingly no reason. How many games have female characters in latex or almost non-existent outfits when other characters are more realistically dressed?

#146 Posted by Grimhild (721 posts) -

@ChaosTony said:

@Grimhild said:

@ChaosTony said:

@believer258 said:

*crosses arms*

I ain't sayin' shit on the matter until I hear the perspective of a woman or two, 'cause a bunch of men don't have quite the same say as to whether it's misogynistic or not as a bunch of women do mainly because they're, well, women.

Seriously, all I ever hear complaining about misogyny when a new game like this comes out are men. Fellows. Dudes. Yes, it's uncomfortable to watch. I hope you never get to see, say, Schindler's List.

On a different note, Nathan Drake and Isaac Clarke are at least two male video game protagonists who do a lot of grunting and moaning, and I'm pretty sure that Lara's older incarnations did some of that as well. At the end of Dead Space 2 Isaac Clarke has a bloody needle go through his eye and later gets an arrow spike thingy shot through both his hand and his upper chest; this isn't to mention all the really gory death animations. Nathan Drake gets shot and has to climb out of a falling train in Uncharted 2. You're telling me that men in games don't ever go through some crazy abuse?

Well what most will bring up is the fact that there is never a male character who is sexualized. I think this is true, but I think the reason is that the MAJORITY of gamers are straight males. Gaming is a hard business with millions of dollars on the line for some games. Do game companies want to risk so much and possibly alienate their main demographic, in order to level things out? I think we need someone to, but I think it should be the exception, not the rule(at first.) If one good game comes out that breaks the mold and sexualizes or refrains from sexualizing women, then maybe the industry can safely move towards equality.

I know it's not a great solution, I don't know if it's even the best solution, but like I said: Millions of dollars are on the line, and the fact is, sex sells.

A majority of male characters would make marvelous male models. Sorry, just saying.

EDIT: Case in point:

You don't get what "sexualize" means. Being attractive doesn't mean they're sexualized. Show me a mainstream game where a guy wears a banana hammock/half-shirt or something similar for any reason other to convey the "viking" trope.

Look, I don't personally have a problem with it because I understand it's the nature of the business, but don't tell me that male and female characters are equally objectified.

Handsome man in a suit = Sexy woman in lingerie. I'll sexualize him alllllll I want.

#147 Posted by Dagbiker (6939 posts) -

@ChaosTony said:

@Meowshi said:

@ChaosTony said:

@believer258 said:

*crosses arms*

I ain't sayin' shit on the matter until I hear the perspective of a woman or two, 'cause a bunch of men don't have quite the same say as to whether it's misogynistic or not as a bunch of women do mainly because they're, well, women.

Seriously, all I ever hear complaining about misogyny when a new game like this comes out are men. Fellows. Dudes. Yes, it's uncomfortable to watch. I hope you never get to see, say, Schindler's List.

On a different note, Nathan Drake and Isaac Clarke are at least two male video game protagonists who do a lot of grunting and moaning, and I'm pretty sure that Lara's older incarnations did some of that as well. At the end of Dead Space 2 Isaac Clarke has a bloody needle go through his eye and later gets an arrow spike thingy shot through both his hand and his upper chest; this isn't to mention all the really gory death animations. Nathan Drake gets shot and has to climb out of a falling train in Uncharted 2. You're telling me that men in games don't ever go through some crazy abuse?

Well what most will bring up is the fact that there is never a male character who is sexualized.

Don't you think the fact that you are a straight male, makes it difficult for you to suggest this? Men and women are sexualized in different ways. Just because male protagonists don't typically bare their midriffs and poke out their lips, doesn't mean they aren't sexualized. Most male protagonists are incredibly attractive and have a musculature which is incongrous with their profession/lifestyle. Most male protagonists are very charming and witty; never saying the wrong thing and always a competent flirt. This image may not do much for you, but for someone it might be incredibly tantalizing.

Again, being attractive doesn't equal sexualization. Oh look, Solid Snake can take off his shirt(and how is that not congruous with his procession/lifestyle?). Show me a game that explicitly sexualizes a man by default. The only things I can come up with are from a few Japanese games where the men are shirtless for seemingly no reason. How many games have female characters in latex or almost non-existent outfits when other characters are more realistically dressed?

Sexualized Men

#148 Posted by SethPhotopoulos (5108 posts) -

@ChaosTony said:

@Meowshi said:

@ChaosTony said:

@believer258 said:

*crosses arms*

I ain't sayin' shit on the matter until I hear the perspective of a woman or two, 'cause a bunch of men don't have quite the same say as to whether it's misogynistic or not as a bunch of women do mainly because they're, well, women.

Seriously, all I ever hear complaining about misogyny when a new game like this comes out are men. Fellows. Dudes. Yes, it's uncomfortable to watch. I hope you never get to see, say, Schindler's List.

On a different note, Nathan Drake and Isaac Clarke are at least two male video game protagonists who do a lot of grunting and moaning, and I'm pretty sure that Lara's older incarnations did some of that as well. At the end of Dead Space 2 Isaac Clarke has a bloody needle go through his eye and later gets an arrow spike thingy shot through both his hand and his upper chest; this isn't to mention all the really gory death animations. Nathan Drake gets shot and has to climb out of a falling train in Uncharted 2. You're telling me that men in games don't ever go through some crazy abuse?

Well what most will bring up is the fact that there is never a male character who is sexualized.

Don't you think the fact that you are a straight male, makes it difficult for you to suggest this? Men and women are sexualized in different ways. Just because male protagonists don't typically bare their midriffs and poke out their lips, doesn't mean they aren't sexualized. Most male protagonists are incredibly attractive and have a musculature which is incongrous with their profession/lifestyle. Most male protagonists are very charming and witty; never saying the wrong thing and always a competent flirt. This image may not do much for you, but for someone it might be incredibly tantalizing.

Again, being attractive doesn't equal sexualization. Oh look, Solid Snake can take off his shirt(and how is that not congruous with his procession/lifestyle?). Show me a game that explicitly sexualizes a man by default. The only things I can come up with are from a few Japanese games where the men are shirtless for seemingly no reason. How many games have female characters in latex or almost non-existent outfits when other characters are more realistically dressed?

Prince of Persia Sands of Time and The Two Thrones. The Prince removes articles of clothing throughout the entire game until he's bare chested for no real reason other than he found some scratches.

Raiden in MGS2. One of the reasons he was created was because Kojima wanted eye candy for women.

Cartwheel
#149 Posted by ChaosTony (102 posts) -

Show me a male video game character who is ugly, not for comedic or intimidation reasons, and you might have a point. People don't want to look at ugly characters, period. Facial appearance is not applicable to this particular discussion.

#150 Posted by ChaosTony (102 posts) -

I haven't played Prince of Persia, but a situation like that works. Kratos is another example, but there's also the fact that he has threesomes with two women in multiple games(thus proving his masculinity and "superiority").

As far as Raiden goes, the entire sequence with him nude wasn't sexualized as much as it was used for comedy.

As I said before, Japanese game developers tend to sexualize men a little more(a lot of final forms of bosses in games tend to be shirtless and ripped, etc). Even so, the inequality is there guys, I don't have a problem with it, I'm just pointing it out.

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