@JasonR86 said:

@bwheeeler said:

http://kotaku.com/5917400/youll-want-to-protect-the-new-less-curvy-lara-croft

"You're kind of like her helper." Because male characters don't need your help, but female ones do.

I'm not upset about the moaning and the attempted rape and all of that stuff. We'll have to see how it pans out in the final game to make any judgments on that. But these statements seem...blatantly sexist. It's just the executive producer, and I'm sure he isn't really a sexist, but this story made me feel weird. I wish he could just say "Lara is a woman, yes! Moving on." Instead, this guy dwells on how being a female protagonist is different by steeping it in this bullshit "men protect women" thing.

In sum, I'm a little drunk and am very concerned about this thing that, when you get right down to it, is really not that important at all. Cool!

I get what you're saying but man they just can't win can they? If they shut up they're misogynistic. If they emphasize the player's connection with her through a poor choice of words (i.e. protecting her) they're sexists.

the solution is to not compare her to a male character. Just saying, yes you'll want to protect this character, is probably right for what the game is, and if they had left it at that... but they specifically compare that to a male character. I mean I want to protect her, but I also wanted to protect Vincent from Catherine (poor guy), I just don't think the comparison between the sexes really helped here.

@TheSouthernDandy

Guys I can't tell anymore what's sexist and what isn't. Am I sexist? Am I not? I need somebody to write me a guide or something...

Seems to be pretty simple; if you're a male gamer, you're a sexist pig.

Kinda getting boring now...

@Brodehouse said:

We already have basically this exact game with a male protagonist in The Last of Us and no one claims that's sexist.

TBF, the dude in The Last of Us wasn't curbstomping and shotgun-facing any ladies in the gameplay we saw. Motherfuckers would be all up in arms over sexism if all of the enemies had a uterus.

@BlackLagoon said:

So, basically new Tomb Raider is moé?

Hanako or Lara? Don't make me choose!

Op is over reacting

You mean I shouldn't want to protect her? I should want her dead in a ditch? Although fucked up, given my experiences with the series, it's not entirely unreasonable.

@Animasta Comparing her to a male is actually the easiest way to look at this allegedly sexist game. If this game is about a young, inexperienced male being shipwrecked on an island, having to develop survival skills and fight against some crazy cultists, suffer incredible pain, avoid being raped or killed (or raped and killed), and escape... Do you think there would be cries of sexism? The ONLY thing that appears to make this game sexist is that it stars a woman. If it was Lawrence Croft, there would be no controversy.

Actually there would be controversy from GLAAD being angry that the game depicts a man trying to rape another man. The claim would be 'depicts gays as murderous rapists'.


We already have basically this exact game with a male protagonist in The Last of Us and no one claims that's sexist.

@Brodehouse said:

@Animasta Comparing her to a male is actually the easiest way to look at this allegedly sexist game. If this game is about a young, inexperienced male being shipwrecked on an island, having to develop survival skills and fight against some crazy cultists, suffer incredible pain, avoid being raped or killed (or raped and killed), and escape... Do you think there would be cries of sexism? The ONLY thing that appears to make this game sexist is that it stars a woman. If it was Lawrence Croft, there would be no controversy. Actually there would be controversy from GLAAD being angry that the game depicts a man trying to rape another man. The claim would be 'depicts gays as murderous rapists'. We already have basically this exact game with a male protagonist in The Last of Us and no one claims that's sexist.

So you're saying that "She's definitely the hero but— you're kind of like her helper," he said. "When you see her have to face these challenges, you start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character." is not sexist? I'm not even fucking saying " DONT BUY THIS GAME BECAUSE ONE OF THE PR GUYS IS AN IDIOT" like everyone thinks I do, I'm just saying he could have picked better words. You don't have to mention her gender though! It's like, "you'll empathize with her more than your average video game character because she gets the shit beat out of her and she's a lot more realistic in the amount of pain she can deal with", which is also very true.

god people just because something has an element of sexism doesn't mean I'm telling y'all not to buy it

@Jimbo said:

Yeah look at all those fat, lazy, stupid, cowardly male leads in games. If your lead is male you make him a male power fantasy.

Gallery

Also Frank West, Larry Laffer, Mario, Wario, Ratchet, Kirby, Banjo, Master Chief, Abe the Mudokon, Vincent from Catherine.

@Animasta said:

@Brodehouse said:

@Animasta Comparing her to a male is actually the easiest way to look at this allegedly sexist game. If this game is about a young, inexperienced male being shipwrecked on an island, having to develop survival skills and fight against some crazy cultists, suffer incredible pain, avoid being raped or killed (or raped and killed), and escape... Do you think there would be cries of sexism? The ONLY thing that appears to make this game sexist is that it stars a woman. If it was Lawrence Croft, there would be no controversy. Actually there would be controversy from GLAAD being angry that the game depicts a man trying to rape another man. The claim would be 'depicts gays as murderous rapists'. We already have basically this exact game with a male protagonist in The Last of Us and no one claims that's sexist.

So you're saying that "She's definitely the hero but— you're kind of like her helper," he said. "When you see her have to face these challenges, you start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character." is not sexist? I'm not even fucking saying " DONT BUY THIS GAME BECAUSE ONE OF THE PR GUYS IS AN IDIOT" like everyone thinks I do, I'm just saying he could have picked better words. You don't have to mention her gender though! It's like, "you'll empathize with her more than your average video game character because she gets the shit beat out of her and she's a lot more realistic in the amount of pain she can deal with", which is also very true.

god people just because something has an element of sexism doesn't mean I'm telling y'all not to buy it

The problem is that the guy that said it isn't a PR guy. It's the executive producer of the game. Which means there's no politically correct word lawyer there to craft a perfectly safe statement for him. He's just a dude, there, talking. Not everyone gives great interviews. I know people think that everyone should have the ability to flawlessly deliver an interview where nothing they say can be taken the wrong way, but that's just not how it is. Did he choose his words poorly? Yeah, sure. Does that mean that it's actually sexist and isn't just this guy being fatigued from DAYS of having to talk to people about this game? Or that he just sucks at conveying ideas as spoken word when put on the spot in an interview?

I mean, from that line, he says "in a way that you might not root for" He's not saying that no one roots for male characters that way. It sounds more like he's saying "but we're so used to seeing males be in power roles where they basically don't even ever seem like they're in danger." Play any given first person shooter. Do you feel bad for the guy and the situation that he's in? Probably not. And even when he goes through punishment "whatever" you don't even think about it. Think about some other male characters though. Nathan Drake, for example. That man gets the shit beat out of him constantly, you start rooting for that man because he's not some crazy super soldier guy, he's just a dude. Same with, say, Vincent from Catherine.

I think you're still reading way too much into something that was said by a human being that didn't have a PR in a suit filter behind it. If you want to tell me that you, or anyone you know, has never said something that came out sounding wrong, or not the way you intended, I'll call you a liar, because that's something that everyone does, all the time.

@FateOfNever: That statement, as it stands, is a sexist statement, and you know what? I do think it was just an accident and I don't think he REALLY thinks that, but it's still a sexist statement and if they clarify it, that they didn't mean it like that, fine, but sorry, when you're talking to press you have to be aware of what you say and be aware that sometimes, people take things differently than what you intend.

and what you're saying the intent was might be correct, but why not draw comparisons directly to uncharted and Nathan Drake, then? Plenty of the press have made comparisons to uncharted already.

I don't get why you think I'm so angry about his statement? It was a stupid statement, and they should probably clarify what the actual intent WAS, if it was different from what most people interpreted it as, but it's just a statement that can read into what that game is, especially if it's a executive producer.

@Jimbo said:

The DLC is just Lara trying to parallel park.

Unfortunately, I was eating when I read that, but other then almost killing me, good job.

@SpunkyHePanda said:

@Hailinel said:

Dude, sober up. All the developer is saying is that, with the amount of punishment that Lara takes over the course of the game, the player is going to feel sorry for her, regardless of whether the player is male or female.

I'm not so sure.

""She's definitely the hero but— you're kind of like her helper," he said. "When you see her have to face these challenges, you start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character.""

Aaaand, they just went the wrong way. Goddamnit. I was really hopeful that this was going to be done right.

I really hope the game is not a gore-a-thon, I like the idea of surviving in a hostile environment but the whole torturing a woman within an inch of her life is not my thing, regardless of whether it's other people doing it or nature. It just reminds me of all those perfume, fashion and bags advertisements where they have women lying dead on stairs looking like dolls or weird shit like that. It's not the same medium or goal but (if Tomb Raider gets all sadistic) they both are essentially using violence for allure and to a very real extent, eroticizing it.

@Brodehouse said:

@FateOfNever The other thing I would add to "this guy is a sexist pig!" is that he probably has a wife or a girlfriend, that probably doesn't think he's a sexist. But we've made an entire judgement on him (and Every Other Person at Crystal D) based on a paragraph in an article. What's crazier is that I can totally see one of the Bomb Crew saying basically the same thing, that the reason you identify with her or are interested in her story is because she's a woman dealing with all this insane abuse as opposed to a man. Must drive them crazy; when Lara was an invulnerable angel of death people were up in arms. When she's vulnerable and weak people are up in arms. Just sounds like there's no winning.

No, people were up in arms when she was a marketing tool, sexualized for the intention of getting that one demographic's attention. Now people are up in arms because they're going too far the other direction with it. They're not using the female form as a marketing tool, but counting on the dense male herds to play directly into their constructed instincts to want to "protect" her, you know, because she needs it.

I think the worry is that they're using the fact that she is a young woman to define her, rather than building a character. But I suppose we'll need to wait and see.

@Brodehouse: I agree with every single one of your statements and couldn't have said it better myself.

shoddy article and a stupid looking game. if this irks you so much then stop paying attention.

The people freaking out about this are just downright childish. There is no reason a developer can't create a unique character with a unique journey. All you're doing by calling this sexist is sending the message that people may as well just stick to male leads if they don't want negative attention. So really, just grow up and stop hurting the cause you are trying to support by freaking out over nothing. I'm not sure if everyone knows this, but being male or female is actually a descriptive thing that does exist in the real world. I know, I know, it's hard to believe that there are actually guys and girls out there, but there are. So trying to claim that this is inherently sexist simply because he points out that her being a female will actually bring along different feelings from the player is just down right stupid. Like I said, there are things that warrant backlash, but if people are going to freak out over something this insignificant, you're just sending the message that it's better to avoid the risk by sticking with male characters.

@Brodehouse said:

@FateOfNever What's crazier is that I can totally see one of the Bomb Crew saying basically the same thing, that the reason you identify with her or are interested in her story is because she's a woman dealing with all this insane abuse as opposed to a man.

Yeah, and here's the thing. There are differences between the sexes. They are both equal, they both deserve fair treatment and respect, but they are different. Pretending like they aren't is where a lot of these problems come from. Yes, there are physical and physiological differences. There's a reason that men and women are in different sports leagues. There's also a psychological and biological protection instinct in most men towards women. Not because women are weaker (though physically, most are) but because biologically, women are more important.

So yes, most gamers (as most are male) will feel like they want to protect Lara from harm, while the women (hopefully) will be able to identify her as a woman growing to overcome insane amounts of adversity, like a video game (i.e. shooter) version of Castaway. What they're going for, at least, seems to be what Casino Royale did for Bond: show why he's an emotionless, womanizing, hardened killer. He was hurt, he lost things, and he was emasculated physically. Hopefully they succeed in their goals. The fact that they've stated these goals is ambitious for the games industry, and at least implies that their motivations are somewhat pure.

@SpunkyHePanda said:

@Hailinel said:

Dude, sober up. All the developer is saying is that, with the amount of punishment that Lara takes over the course of the game, the player is going to feel sorry for her, regardless of whether the player is male or female.

I'm not so sure.

""She's definitely the hero but— you're kind of like her helper," he said. "When you see her have to face these challenges, you start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character.""

Don't forget my personal favorite quote:

"In the new Tomb Raider, Lara Croft will suffer. Her best friend will be kidnapped. She'll get taken prisoner by island scavengers. And then, Rosenberg says, those scavengers will try to rape her. 'She is literally turned into a cornered animal,' Rosenberg said. 'It's a huge step in her evolution: she's forced to either fight back or die.'"

Nope, no questionable women's politics here!

Isn't the player's goal in nearly every game to protect the main character?

Pretty much the way I look at this is a combination of a producer bring too frank and Kotaku writing a shitty misleading article.

He is correct, it is difficult to write interactive fiction where the majority of your players are male and the main character is female. It seems like he is trying to express that, but sounded too sexist unfortunately.

@Brodehouse: There's a huge difference between discussing what Ron Rosenberg's statements say about the potential sexism in the game and calling him and the entire Crystal D staff sexist pigs. The OP specifically said he didn't think Rosenberg was actually sexist.

From what I've seen of the game itself, it seems like comparisons to other examples of heroic suffering, like Issac Clarke and Nathan Drake might be right on, but statements like, "you'll want to protect her" and "don't really project themselves into the character" undermine that heroism. Part what makes characters like Batman and Solid Snake appealing is that they don't need help. They just power through and get done what needs to get done. Even in Dead Space, with Issac Clark in a constant struggle similar to the new Lara Croft, it is because you inhabit that character that it works. You go through the struggles as Issac Clark, not as some paternalistic protector.

@altairre said:

@Pinworm45 said:

@SpunkyHePanda said:

@Hailinel said:

Dude, sober up. All the developer is saying is that, with the amount of punishment that Lara takes over the course of the game, the player is going to feel sorry for her, regardless of whether the player is male or female.

I'm not so sure.

""She's definitely the hero but— you're kind of like her helper," he said. "When you see her have to face these challenges, you start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character.""

So we're at the point where we're so eager to claim sexism that even acknowledging the fact that genders exist and sometimes we have differing feelings towards them is sexist, now?

Apparently yes.

Nope. My point was that it colors the other statements about being her helper and wanting to protect her, if anyone thought it would be the same with a male character. I give him the benefit of the doubt and say it was all a poor choice of words.

I'm going to protect the shit out of her

Too many white knights in here trying to call sexism. This whole thing has been explained before for those of you who fail to understand it. There has been multiple threads on it. There is a very good interview video right here on Giant Bomb that elucidates this issue.

Just drop it. No one is impressed by you and you are doing the very thing you claim is disgusting, trying to come in here protecting this image of a woman because apparently they can't defend themselves. Irony.

@Subjugation said:

Too many white knights in here trying to call sexism. This whole thing has been explained before for those of you who fail to understand it. There has been multiple threads on it. There is a very good interview videoright here on Giant Bombthat elucidates this issue.

Just drop it. No one is impressed by you and you are doing the very thing you claim is disgusting, trying to come in here protecting this image of a woman because apparently they can't defend themselves. Irony.

Yeah, I think people are taking this a liiiiiittle too hard. It's not the best thing to say (since usually it's something you'd say about a character you're NOT directly controlling), but I think he was more trying to get across that you're going to feel for the character and become attached to her.

@Jimbo said:

The DLC is just Lara trying to parallel park.

Must...not...laugh...HAW!!!

I wonder if Amy Hennig was lead on this game, would it exist a game mechanic to free Lara from guys who trying to rape her. Probably not.

Really if you want to make woman equals, stop giving them stupid complexes. Woman dont need to be saved.

I don't see why he didn't say something along the lines of "you will want to protect Lara as if she were your daughter or younger sibling" or something to that effect instead of specifically making it about her being a woman. This game and the discussions surrounding it just make me feel uneasy.

Personally I absolutely loved this if not just for the hilarious antics on Twitter. Watching SpaceDrake and others discuss how Lara is now Moe!

The more "offended" responses I read regarding Tomb Raider, the more blatantly obvious it becomes to me that a huge part of the gaming community still has a lot of growing up to do.

This new Tomb Raider game has really started up a firestorm about sexism. You got people denying sexism is still around, brushing of complaints of sexism or criticizing the game for being sexist. I technically fall into the third category but not by screaming "Sexism" but by concerns of how Lara is portrayed whether in game or in previews. I saw the trailer and I felt it was intense, I hoped the game would not be as intense as it to the point it was all about sexual abuse used to claim as character development. Then I saw the cave demo and my concerns were not relieved but amplified. I saw the cliff demo which relieved me and had me thinking that maybe I was looking to deep into things. Then an interview, from a site that shall not be named, Had a quote where the executive producer said the following

"When people play Lara, they don't really project themselves into the character," Rosenberg told me at E3 last week when I asked if it was difficult to develop for a female protagonist.

"They're more like 'I want to protect her.' There's this sort of dynamic of 'I'm going to this adventure with her and trying to protect her.'"

"She's definitely the hero but— you're kind of like her helper," he said. "When you see her have to face these challenges, you start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character."

"She literally goes from zero to hero... we're sort of building her up and just when she gets confident, we break her down again."

"In the new Tomb Raider, Lara Croft will suffer. Her best friend will be kidnapped. She'll get taken prisoner by island scavengers. And then, Rosenberg says, those scavengers will try to rape her."

"She is literally turned into a cornered animal," Rosenberg said. "It's a huge step in her evolution: she's forced to either fight back or die."

Lets break it down to address each one.

"When people play Lara, they don't really project themselves into the character," Rosenberg told me at E3 last week when I asked if it was difficult to develop for a female protagonist.

"They're more like 'I want to protect her.' There's this sort of dynamic of 'I'm going to this adventure with her and trying to protect her.'"

"She's definitely the hero but— you're kind of like her helper," he said. "When you see her have to face these challenges, you start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character."

The big problem here is that we are not feeling like we are the character but feel like we are their protecting her. Like if she didn't have us she wouldn't survive. It makes it sound like a rescue the damsel game except we are the mysterious force that rescues this damsel. Yes it's sexist, no two ways about it. We are supposed to be Lara, we are supposed to struggle to survive and become strong.

"She literally goes from zero to hero... we're sort of building her up and just when she gets confident, we break her down again."

So when she is slowly gaining strength she is reverted back to default. It sounds like character development that goes nowhere.

"In the new Tomb Raider, Lara Croft will suffer. Her best friend will be kidnapped. She'll get taken prisoner by island scavengers. And then, Rosenberg says, those scavengers will try to rape her."

Let's make a list of all the horrible things that will happen to her to explain how her character is deep (sarcasm). The events do not define the character but are the situations for change and growth. Unfortunately that does not seem to be what they are focusing on. Not only that but we got the stereotype of island scavengers killing and looting. The only way this could be worse is if they were made mostly black. We are not getting deep storytelling but shallow hack provocation to claim that this is character growth. Unless the developers change this, I'm not going to get it.

Fucking kotaku... survival horror games, you are trying to protect the main character from evil, everyfuckingtime. Also, males and females are different, you know that right? both genders have different fears and insecurities on a given situation, and how they react to it is shape by personality.

The attempted rape thing is weird but other than that, they're trying to make her less 'omg giants boobs with guns' and kinda believable. And making a character more believable is usually a good thing.

How do you do that if your playing as her? It's not like enslaved where you played as Monkey protecting Trip.

i don't know whether it is the developer's intent to do one thing or another, but it is interesting that they regard the relationship between player and avatar in this way.

@TheSouthernDandy: You're actually a racist.

@SathingtonWaltz said:

@TheSouthernDandy: You're actually a racist.

Damnit!!! I'm just gonna stop talking...

I neve rforget when I played the first Unreal game, and thought I had to play as that chick. . By the time I was done, I enjoyed the experience(whether I was just ignorant I could choose the male version or not). It was different from just running around being a baddass or whatever Reminds me I have Alice returns..

To tell the truth though, sounds like the string is getting yanked for this one.

Why do people care about shit like this? It's just a game, play it and shut up.

I don't think I've ever seen something being blown this out of proportion.

@Brodehouse said:

@Gerhabio Torturing video game characters to an inch of their life is kind of what we do. The only difference is that this is a woman. We put Solid Snake in a microwave, we stuck needles into Isaac Clarke's eye, by the time Batman has put all Joker away his suit is in tatters and he's visibly bleeding. But this has started a furor because it's a lady who suffers heroically. Doesn't seem right to me.

Well, I do think there's a difference. There's an obvious disproportion of female to male protagonists in video games so when a female character gets visibly brutalized it should be suspect.

There's also important contextual differences between the examples you gave and Tomb Raider. What happens to Snake is enexpected and a poignant sacrifice in the plot. He makes the choice to go through it. Isaac is in a horror-themed game. Batman gets cut and dirty, sure, but he doesn't get stabbled by branches, plus the dude is huge, has armor and is trained in all forms of combat.

Weren't they even saying there's a rape attempt? I don't know man, like you said, it doesn't seem right to me.

So again, I hope it doesn't get down right nasty.

Lara should leave this fight for Sam Fisher, go home and wash my damn clothes woman!