Great! Executive producer says you'll "want to protect" Lara.

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#101 Edited by egg (1455 posts) -

Of course women need to be protected. They need protection from all the sexism out there. I'll protect them.

#102 Posted by Demoskinos (14769 posts) -

I'm honestly baffled by this sudden surge of White Knighting over both the issues of Violence and Sexism in games. Everyone is going on about its appalling that people whooped and hollered for the elephant man getting fucked up my Kratos. Oh, hey... where were all these people when Kratos ripped Helios' head off in one of the most graphic deaths ever portrayed in a video game? Its just super fucking weird how everyone has turned on a dime and suddenly become monocle wearing high-society types that scoff at video game violence. And running this back around full circle to the sexism thing I think its less sexism and more guys that are super defensive about not wanting to be thought of as "creeps" because they are into that game with "all the weird moaning and suggested rape" when defending their hobby.

I mean really listening to the bombcast tonight every two minutes it seemed like they were railing on games about how it was creepy and sexist or "messed up" that people were applauding the violent bits in games. Like really? At the end of the day they are fucking video games. They aren't real and they don't matter why everyone is getting so fucking worked up about nothing is mind boggling to me. Again, it just screams to me desperation of people wanting to justify their hobby to outsiders. So whatever I'm going to sit here and continue to play Lollipop Chainsaw and if that makes me some weird "creep" because I don't get blatantly offended by all the obvious objectification and sophomoric humor than so fucking be it.

#103 Posted by Animasta (14673 posts) -

@Demoskinos: at this point I don't even read posts that include white knighting in them.. get a fucking clue, white knights aren't real, no one argues this shit because they're hoping girls will like them better, they argue because they don't like it, SURPRISE! enjoy lollipop chainsaw all you want, fucking play rapelay if you REALLY want to, but to say that just because they're video games they don't matter is such a horribly reductive thing to say... and even if it was true, some people would like for their chosen method of entertainment to not be offensive to a large group of people, real or not.

#104 Posted by phrosnite (3518 posts) -

lol People overreacting.

#105 Posted by TruthTellah (8800 posts) -

@Demoskinos: Wait, are you saying the Giant Bomb guys are whiteknighting and desperate?

I'm not sure we've been seeing the same Giant Bomb. They're just complaining on something they disagree with. Maybe you like something, but they don't. That's Giant Bomb. They're not you, and they can think differently on things.

And their only critique of Lollipop Chainsaw has been that the promotion of it has been super sophomoric. They haven't condemned the game. I mean, they liked Saints Row The Third, but even they criticized its advertising. So, you can still enjoy games with dumb presentation. And more than likely, they'll still check out Tomb Raider and give it a fair assessment no matter what one of the developers said. They'll make up their own mind as they always do.

#106 Posted by Kierkegaard (583 posts) -

You disappoint me, parts of Giant Bomb community. Sexism is real. This dude said something offensive and belittling not only to women but to the game industry (it assumes all players are sexist men), and so many of you are defending it!

We love games, right? When someone you love does something wrong, you don't deny that they did wrong, you note the wrong, you help them work through it, and you still love them.

People here are treating games like they are gods--perfect beings that do no make mistakes, that must be loved without question lest we disappoint them. It's pathetic. Stop it.

#107 Posted by hoossy (933 posts) -

@SpunkyHePanda said:

@Hailinel said:

Dude, sober up. All the developer is saying is that, with the amount of punishment that Lara takes over the course of the game, the player is going to feel sorry for her, regardless of whether the player is male or female.

I'm not so sure.

""She's definitely the hero but— you're kind of like her helper," he said. "When you see her have to face these challenges, you start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character.""

Honestly though, while perhaps a poor choice of words, I think you could argue this from the other side too. Male characters in games have traditionally been presented in reverse-sexism; ultra badass guys with ridiculous muscles and zero fear who kill everyone and everything in their path. How is that not sexism?

What I think he is really saying, is that Lara is moving away from a video game stereotype that demands that the protagonist be some Rambo allstar.

#108 Posted by medacris (649 posts) -

I think ideally, regardless of gender, you want to protect the characters you like- even if they're a total badass, there's also usually this vulnerable side of them as well, the side that maybe regrets killing that faceless mook, the one that's always a little scared of danger no matter how many traps they've evaded. I figured that that's what they meant- Lara's badass, but they want her to seem like a real person, someone who you'd want to hug if they went through something harrowing.

#109 Posted by Hunter5024 (5617 posts) -

He shouldn't have made it about her being a girl. He could have said that this was a more vulnerable character and that makes her easier to root for than someone like say Nathan Drake or Bayonetta, and gotten the same point across but less sexisty. Some games are designed to put the player in the main characters shoes, others are about you putting yourself in their shoes. This game is the latter, and I think this is the point he was trying to convey. But I hold nothing against him or the game, e3 can be exhausting and talking to people non stop all day can make you slip up and say stupid stuff you didnt mean.

#110 Posted by Kierkegaard (583 posts) -

@hoossy said:

@SpunkyHePanda said:

@Hailinel said:

Dude, sober up. All the developer is saying is that, with the amount of punishment that Lara takes over the course of the game, the player is going to feel sorry for her, regardless of whether the player is male or female.

I'm not so sure.

""She's definitely the hero but— you're kind of like her helper," he said. "When you see her have to face these challenges, you start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character.""

Honestly though, while perhaps a poor choice of words, I think you could argue this from the other side too. Male characters in games have traditionally been presented in reverse-sexism; ultra badass guys with ridiculous muscles and zero fear who kill everyone and everything in their path. How is that not sexism?

What I think he is really saying, is that Lara is moving away from a video game stereotype that demands that the protagonist be some Rambo allstar.

Objectification, right?--making a person an object to be gazed at rather than a human being, in this case in media. For a male character to be objectified, to be made a sex object, we would need a camera that moves like this and men who look like this (NSFW link).

If you watch the video of the sexy gay paint session, you'll see that Nathan Drake, Marcus Fenix etc are not objectified--they are rather male fantasies of wit, muscles, and courage. They are men as men supposedly want to see men. Sexualized women are women as men supposedly want to see women--busty but skinny, or, in this case, in need of protection. Sexualized men, like in that video, are something few if any video games have ever had.

So sexism, then, is the systematic dehumanization of a certain gender via the reduction of that gender into stereotypes and false characterizations. And, yeah, as long as male privilege is a real, documented thing in our society, sexism basically only happens to women.

Reverse-sexism, like reverse-racism, is a false victimization, a pleading from the men in power that they not be attacked when, in reality, sexism against women is still a pervasive evil in society.

#111 Posted by Hitchenson (4682 posts) -

That's swell. I love not giving a shit though, it feels great.

#112 Posted by AlexanderSheen (4968 posts) -

Internet drama!

#113 Posted by GaspoweR (2960 posts) -

Blown out of proportion sounds about right. Explanation is poorly worded but that lady n the featured comment sounded like a typical enraged gamer... Jesus christ. She didnt have to curse a lot. Totally unecessary and she came off more as an immature teen instead of actually just trying to properly voice out her opinion.

#114 Posted by Damian (1538 posts) -

I just wanted to say that I think it's sad that we're still using Tomb Raider to gauge how progressive we are as gamers in 2012? This conversation is probably worth having, just not at all with Lara Croft as a focal point.

The press seems to be looking for fights to pick, or maybe, just maybe it was a PR move to get this kind of attention as it's worked for Lara in the past (though, I'd still lay responsibility on the press for falling for it, making this a hot topic). But, again, not worth considering in the greater context of equality. This is only one interpretation of what a female can be in a video game. I don't think the adult women or men who will choose to play this need protection from its opinions.

#115 Posted by Brodehouse (9876 posts) -

@Kierkegaard: Unfortunately, objectification is not the issue here, I don't know why you decided to go off on that tangent. The problem isn't Lara being treated like a sexual object, the problem is people feel she's being treated like a damsel in distress. Of course, the fact that people are up in arms over Lara Croft having to struggle and suffer to survive but say nothing about Joel from The Last of Us is clearly a double standard, under Men Are The Expendable Gender. Like so;

A sub-trope of the double standard. In media, female characters start with automatic audience sympathy because women are seen as moral, innocent, beautiful or simply because they have sexual value. Male characters are less likely to be seen that way and must earn audience sympathy by acting appropriately manly and heroic, which, more often then not, involves saving the Damsel in Distress.

Conversely, if a man is unable to take care of himself or others he forfeits audience sympathy. Women, on the other hand, do not lose audience sympathy—or at least not as much—for being helpless, incompetent or abandoning men to their fates in order to save themselves. Strangely, this can still hold true if the woman in question has already been established as a Badass. See Chickification. The consequences of this are complicated, but in summary:

The public reaction to Lara suffering pain in order to progress her story and conspicuous lack of reaction for Joel, Isaac, Snake, Batman is actually far worse for women and men than any choice of clothing. It perpetuates both ideas, that men are expected to naturally be competent, independent and traditionally heroic, and that women are not.

The other thing that I'm finding incredibly insane is that it appears a lot of people on this forum can't tell the difference between crying out in mortal agony and crying out in sexual climax. Think about that for a second, that's super fucking creepy. You people see a woman in agonizing pain and you think she's slutting it up?

#116 Posted by Demoskinos (14769 posts) -

@Animasta: People have the abject right to reject something and not buy it if they find it offensive.

#117 Posted by Dagbiker (6970 posts) -

@Brodehouse said:

Think about that for a second, that's super fucking creepy. You people see a woman in agonizing pain and you think she's slutting it up?

I dont have that problem, although I haven't really thought about it. But to be fair, she isn't really crying out in pain, its just some woman in a vocal booth.

#118 Posted by Hailinel (24409 posts) -

@Dagbiker said:

@Brodehouse said:

Think about that for a second, that's super fucking creepy. You people see a woman in agonizing pain and you think she's slutting it up?

I dont have that problem, although I haven't really thought about it. But to be fair, she isn't really crying out in pain, its just some woman in a vocal booth.

That's only if you separate the voice from the character. The character Lara Croft is obviously reacting to her agony through pained vocalizations, not behaving in some sexual manner.

#119 Posted by Demoskinos (14769 posts) -

@TruthTellah: They are well and free to have their opinion. I'm just saying this is hardly the first time people have "cheered" during a violent bit of a video game. I don't get where they are coming from with their sudden seemingly disgust at it. Secondly, people just like to have that sexism card just sitting in their hand so they can play it as soon as anything even deemed remotely offensive happens even when its something like this when obviously the guy was on the spot and chose his words badly. Its baffling how people were going on about the moaning in the game to me as well. It sounded to me like a woman who just took a brutal fall and most likely cracked a few ribs who was in agonizing pain. Yet people want to instantly sexualize it. I had to rewatch the demo a second time to even get at what people were saying because that never even crossed my mind when watching it.

#120 Posted by Demoskinos (14769 posts) -

@Hailinel: Exactly, if anything is "creepy" about this its how everyones head went straight to THAT. I had to watch the demo twice to even understand what people were talking about.

#121 Posted by hidys (1029 posts) -

Those comments are a bit fucked up but hopefully do not represent the approach they take with Lara final game.

#122 Posted by RedRavN (398 posts) -

I think the recent portrayal of Laura was pretty close to how a real strong person would behave in that situation. Getting impaled, falling and almost freezing are enough to humble both the strongest men and women. While most people would have gone into shock at that point, Laura is able to continue to survive. Getting injured is a scary thing and the responce is often huge and emotional for all but the most hardened people.

I find it ironic that we finally get a realistic portrayal of a heroic woman in the lead in an action game and some people still bring up feminist issues. I felt like I wanted to protect Nathan Drake in uncharted and I'm a strait male. Also, alan wake was a realistic male character that gave me an emotional responce. That interview was obviously bait for the maligned psychos who started this whole "controversy". Seriously, learn about feminism and gender issues before you start whining about quotes that are fully interpretive. If you see a gender issue here it might be a good time to examine how you feel about yourself. There are still so many real world gender issues especially in certain countries that your time would be better spent there instead of examining a trailer to an unreleased videogame.

#123 Edited by Dogma (946 posts) -

@Hailinel

@Demoskinos said:

@Hailinel: Exactly, if anything is "creepy" about this its how everyones head went straight to THAT. I had to watch the demo twice to even understand what people were talking about.

I second this. I never thought about tortureporn or porno moans when I saw this game last year or this year. Like you I had to rewatch it to understand what the hell people were talking about. Do you know what I think started it all? Some wisecracking joke on the Interwebs that snowballed into something uncontrollable and suddenly people think "Ha! That was funny...I will say that too!". I can surely think that some people feel like it's has sexual undertones BUT I also believe that most of those comments are from trolls or people who prioritize being funny rather than serious.

If that is not the case then I thinkt hat the people that hear pornographic sounds and directly relates to the word tortureporn are FAR worse then the people that don't hear that. How does your mind work if that is the first thing you relate to, seriously?! I have used that word for one thing and that is to describe movies like Saw and Hostel. THAT is fucking disgusting shit which sole purpose is the nauseate me. The new Tomb Raider is NOT that! I think this discussion is beyond stupid.

Here is something about using vioelnce to great effect. Contains spoilers for Heavy Rain.

In Heavy Rain I LOVED Ethan journey of hardship. It made my relate to him a a lot. I felt his pain and it was horrible doing his different quests. The lizzard quest that meant chopping of your own finger was grueling and his screams of pain and cries echoed in my ears. Stuff like that made me feel really sorry for Ethan and made me want him to manage through this horrible event. I have really high hopes that Tomb Raider will aim to do the same because pain can be crazy powerful tool for making us connect to the characters on screen.

This may sound horrible BUT I think using attempted rape to be very effective too. It's evocative AND on top of that it's a subject almost no game has dared to touch. It has to be used smart and with a narrative point to not be tasteless but in the right hands even such a horrible act can be an effective way to get the players affection.

To actually connect to the topic I have to say that yeah, that was a bad thing to say BUT I won't make a big fuzz about it because I don't think this man is sexist or that Crystal Dynamics is it. I think he made a misstake. Everyone makes misstake. it's not fair to crucify someone or call them sexist because of a bad choice of words. Just be calm and don't explode with rage about every fucking thing no matter if it's Dante's new look, the first 5 minutes of footage from a game or even a trailer. Gamers (people?) just seem to want to find controversy, be cynical and hateful. Why is it so hard to be level headed on the Internet? I do take my beloved games seriously and I also yell when I think something is wierd but this...this is not one of those moments.

#124 Posted by Animasta (14673 posts) -

@Demoskinos said:

@Animasta: People have the abject right to reject something and not buy it if they find it offensive.

WOW YOU JUST BLEW MY MIND.

so we can't discuss if anything is sexist or not then? just not buy it and leave it at that? fuck you

#125 Posted by Demoskinos (14769 posts) -

@Animasta: All the "discussion" revolves around one mans poorly chosen words. There is nothing TO discuss here. Its just people throwing a project under the bus because of that. For once the damsel in distress saves herself instead of needing a man to do it and people still cry sexist. Fucking Christ can nobody be happy? Its just people looking to throw stones not a fucking discussion.

#126 Posted by TentPole (1858 posts) -

Once the game comes out this will all probably seem pretty silly.

#127 Posted by Demoskinos (14769 posts) -

@TentPole: As it always is.

#128 Posted by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

@Dagbiker said:

@Brodehouse said:

Think about that for a second, that's super fucking creepy. You people see a woman in agonizing pain and you think she's slutting it up?

I dont have that problem, although I haven't really thought about it. But to be fair, she isn't really crying out in pain, its just some woman in a vocal booth.

That's only if you separate the voice from the character. The character Lara Croft is obviously reacting to her agony through pained vocalizations, not behaving in some sexual manner.

I have to agree with Hailinel here. We don't assume female tennis players are midst orgasm while they play just because they grunt expressively. This is the same thing.

#129 Posted by Demoskinos (14769 posts) -

@SeriouslyNow said:

@Hailinel said:

@Dagbiker said:

@Brodehouse said:

Think about that for a second, that's super fucking creepy. You people see a woman in agonizing pain and you think she's slutting it up?

I dont have that problem, although I haven't really thought about it. But to be fair, she isn't really crying out in pain, its just some woman in a vocal booth.

That's only if you separate the voice from the character. The character Lara Croft is obviously reacting to her agony through pained vocalizations, not behaving in some sexual manner.

I have to agree with Hailinel here. We don't assume female tennis players are midst orgasm while they play just because they grunt expressively. This is the same thing.

Winner winner chicken dinner.

#130 Posted by Animasta (14673 posts) -

@Demoskinos said:

@Animasta: All the "discussion" revolves around one mans poorly chosen words. There is nothing TO discuss here. Its just people throwing a project under the bus because of that. For once the damsel in distress saves herself instead of needing a man to do it and people still cry sexist. Fucking Christ can nobody be happy? Its just people looking to throw stones not a fucking discussion.

these simple 'words' are very possibly incredibly descriptive of the game as a whole, so why shouldn't they be discussed? he is an executive producer on the game for crying out loud. This isn't some fucking PR guy who barely touches the game, this is one of the lead people. I want that game where she saves herself and fucking whatever, but why would I want to buy this if one of the main design concerns is that I should want to protect her? She's not a little kid, or a dog, she's a grown woman who's SUPPOSED to have agency.

#131 Edited by TentPole (1858 posts) -

@Animasta said:

@Demoskinos said:

@Animasta: All the "discussion" revolves around one mans poorly chosen words. There is nothing TO discuss here. Its just people throwing a project under the bus because of that. For once the damsel in distress saves herself instead of needing a man to do it and people still cry sexist. Fucking Christ can nobody be happy? Its just people looking to throw stones not a fucking discussion.

these simple 'words' are very possibly incredibly descriptive of the game as a whole, so why shouldn't they be discussed? he is an executive producer on the game for crying out loud. This isn't some fucking PR guy who barely touches the game, this is one of the lead people. I want that game where she saves herself and fucking whatever, but why would I want to buy this if one of the main design concerns is that I should want to protect her? She's not a little kid, or a dog, she's a grown woman who's SUPPOSED to have agency.

Because though you are free to talk about whatever you want, but I am free to call it speculative bullshit. Which is exactly what it is. Maybe the game is sexist as fuck but until the game comes out we wont know.

It is shitty to condemn the game and by extension the entire body of developers who worked on it without that knowledge. You go right ahead but I am going to need to know more before I decide to label anyone as misogynistic pieces of shit, because those are some serious accusations that should not be made lightly or casually.

#132 Posted by Demoskinos (14769 posts) -

@Animasta: Again, what does the views of one man matter if the game does end up being THAT. Secondly, as discussed on the bombcast this week as patrick pointed out it was a bad choice of words. I think the underlying message he was trying to so hamfistedly deliver is that their goal is to make you care about her as a person. Him bringing up gender was a bad move but I mean c'mon we've all had those times where we think "oops shit I just said that didn't I?" One of their stated goals in the same article is to downplay lara's over sexualzation. Were not seeing lara with ripped shirts and pandering close ups so we can see her side boob. I think they are being mostly respectful here or at least that is their intent. And personally I think intent is more important than what is actually said. But hey, that might just be me.

#133 Edited by Animasta (14673 posts) -

@TentPole said:

@Animasta said:

@Demoskinos said:

@Animasta: All the "discussion" revolves around one mans poorly chosen words. There is nothing TO discuss here. Its just people throwing a project under the bus because of that. For once the damsel in distress saves herself instead of needing a man to do it and people still cry sexist. Fucking Christ can nobody be happy? Its just people looking to throw stones not a fucking discussion.

these simple 'words' are very possibly incredibly descriptive of the game as a whole, so why shouldn't they be discussed? he is an executive producer on the game for crying out loud. This isn't some fucking PR guy who barely touches the game, this is one of the lead people. I want that game where she saves herself and fucking whatever, but why would I want to buy this if one of the main design concerns is that I should want to protect her? She's not a little kid, or a dog, she's a grown woman who's SUPPOSED to have agency.

Because though you are free to talk about whatever you want I am free to call it speculative bullshit because that is what it is. Maybe the game is exist as fuck but until the game comes out it is shitty to condemn the game and by extension the entire body of developers who worked on it. You go right ahead but I am going to need to know more before I decide to label anyone as misogynistic pieces of shit because those are some serious accusations that should not be made lightly or casually.

I said the same thing earlier in the topic dude! keep up

Just saying that they have to prove themselves (and their new Lara) even more now, especially in the wake of this.

but if that is one of the core design tenets, than this is fucked, straight up.

#134 Posted by TentPole (1858 posts) -

@Animasta: Whatever. You have been shitting on this game and the people making it for weeks.

#135 Posted by Animasta (14673 posts) -

Nope, I've just been finding the stuff they've shown problematic which automatically means I'm shitting on them as a company.

#136 Posted by Make_Me_Mad (3071 posts) -

@Demoskinos said:

@Animasta: All the "discussion" revolves around one mans poorly chosen words. There is nothing TO discuss here. Its just people throwing a project under the bus because of that. For once the damsel in distress saves herself instead of needing a man to do it and people still cry sexist. Fucking Christ can nobody be happy? Its just people looking to throw stones not a fucking discussion.

Except the developer is specifically saying that Lara isn't saving herself, or isn't capable, and that she needs a helper in the form of the player to do it. And is this supposed to be the first time in history a female character has saved the day without any backup? How about motherfucking Metroid? You know, first bad ass female video game character that made most people do a double-take when they realized they'd just singlehandedly saved the goddamn galaxy as a woman?

I don't think people are upset at all because there's a competent female protagonist, I think they're upset because what's happened here is that they took a female protagonist who was already competent, already a badass who went into constant danger for the sake of exploration, and they've significantly weakened her, injured her repeatedly, and there's a sort of fear, at least for me, that if the payoff of this game or a possible sequel doesn't firmly establish Lara back in that badass status, then this is going to essentially destroy what was a classic franchise and character. I grew up with Tomb Raider games coming out, and sure, as an adolescent my thoughts were on 'man, she's hot', but that gave way to 'holy shit, what a badass' around the time she gunned down a fucking T-Rex.

Games can have female leads of pretty much any spectrum. Look at Silent Hill 3! Heather is one of the most competent protagonists in the series history, and she's still a confused young woman breaking down under the stress of her situation, and it's conveyed exceptionally well. There were no claims of sexism then. Bayonetta, where the most powerful beings in the entire universe up to and including God happen to be women? I think you are imagining an argument that simply isn't going on. If there's anyone out there who is actually still threatened by a strong female character, by god, lay into them and expose them and I will help you do it because fuck those people, but I don't think that's what this is about.

#137 Posted by OneManX (1686 posts) -

I honestly dont know if I would call Lara badass in those old games. She to me was badass in the same way Duke Nukem was badass, there character did a bunch of cool shit, but the character itself was pretty hollow. Lara was an adventurer who wanted to raid tombs... okay...

That's cool. And I should just say to get this out of the way, I didn't like the old Tomb Raider games, so I have no... ties to those older games.

I think Uncharted is making this team step their game up. Nathan Drake is a badass, but he is also a great character. And I am interested in seeing if they can make Lara an interesting character as well as a badass. I got the jist of what the developer was saying, but he worded it wrong. I wanted to Protect Nathan Drake in that I wanted to see him succeed. I wanted him to win in the end. When he was jumping around and climbing, when a ledge would fall or a pipe would bend, I would go, "Fuck..." like, "C'mon Drake, let's do this, WE can do this" And I think that is what the developer meant in wanting to se Lara go forward.

#138 Posted by Dunchad (486 posts) -

Indeed - if this was Lawrence Croft getting tortured, I'd shrug it off (like I have, in so many other games before now). But since it is Lara Croft, I will feel the desire to help and protect her. You think that's sexists? Then fuck you.

That shit is hardcoded into my body - in general, I am more likely to feel protective towards women and children, than towards other men. And if these developers want to take advantage of that part of me and manipulate my emotions - good on them. Hope it works. That's the reason I play games or read books - I want them to evoke emotions in me that I don't get to experiece on daily basis.

Anyway - the winner of this thread:

@egg said:

Of course women need to be protected. They need protection from all the sexism out there. I'll protect them.

#139 Posted by Kierkegaard (583 posts) -

@Brodehouse: I was responding to the previous poster's argument that Drake and other male characters are depicted as overly muscle-y by pointing out that that is in no way sexualizing. To the point at hand, actually, yeah, this is about objectification. Players "protecting" Lara means that she has no agency, no being, of her own--she is not acting for herself (like Nathan Drake does), but for us. That's objectification.

Totally agree with you about the vocalizations--pain and sex sounding the same way for some people is fucked up.

One other thing: Rape is a really, really lazy and offensive story tool to indicate evil. Stories with villains who are cartoonishly malevolent and have molesty eyes are boring and wrong. If this is really an island of misogynistic cultists, that's terrible writing and world construction. Give me an enemy that I can see how they got where they are--people who do bad things usually have mistaken views of the world and are doing harm for something they perceive as a greater good. There exist bands of rapists out there (NAMBLA, for one), but having them be the antagonists is just lazy and, yeah, sexist. Drake's facing dudes who want to kill him because they are trying to get some mercenary relic stealing shit done. He's not killing to avoid all the men raping him. Why should Lara be any different?

The leap to "If we need to make this female character tough, she has to face sexual harassment" is really sad. It implies that women are strong when they face down creepy men, not when they are skilled, intelligent, kind human beings.

This comment is not out of context. This comment is offensive and disgusting, just like Jeff said. Does that make the game offensive and disgusting? Yes, if it actually follows the impetus he laid out. I deeply hope the developers do some soul searching and fix this shit.

#140 Posted by TheHumanDove (2523 posts) -

Ohh Lara, you will forever be the wrath of feminists everywhere. Some things never change

#141 Posted by Dogma (946 posts) -

I think you have a very level headed response to all of this. I'm not closing my eyes around these issues BUT this is not those kind of issues. Not yet. Not until we actually see the games and the context.

BTW... two more things! Have you guys seen this?

http://kotaku.com/5918193/tomb-raider-creators-are-no-longer-referring-to-games-attempted-rape-scene-as-an-attempted-rape-scene

Crystal Dynamics have confronted the whole thing. The little 2-3 second clip where the guy approaches (in lack of better words) Lara is what this "Rape scene" actually is. It's threatening scene. Not an act.

What makes is worse though is that people already made up their mind and are hellbent on discussing the topic to GREAT extenct! I present you will link number 2!

http://www.vg247.com/2012/06/13/live-debate-should-tomb-raider-include-rape-elements/

There will be a debate named "“Hey, let’s ‘evolve’ Lara Croft by having people try to rape her!”. That's just sad. Espcally since Crystal Dynamics clearified the whole thing. But it was sad even before that because how the want to take this discussion long before the game actually ships, can be played and got the chance to show the context of the scene. It's like Bully, Grand Theft Auto, Mass Effect and (kinda) and the whole "Resident Evil 5 is racist" debacle that went on before the context could even been shown.

#142 Posted by DukesT3 (1909 posts) -

So cray.

#143 Posted by Pezen (1594 posts) -

I think people are blowing so much out of proportion based on a few select quotes, not to mention people are putting words in his mouth off of very little. I think the only questionable thing he says is "When you see her have to face these challenges, you start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character." -- But at the same time, that may be entirely true because not a lot of female characters have been subjected to that so we may not be entirely used to it. Kill Bill came out and having a heroine instead of a hero that got subjected to extreme violence was different because it was at the time rather unique. Also, why are people so afraid of the notion that the gender might matter to how people respond to something?

#144 Edited by Encephalon (1243 posts) -

Really, the disquieting thing about the Tomb Raider stuff isn't the guy's comments about "wanting to protect" the character, it's the (maybe?) false assumption that male gamers are incapable of projecting themselves into Lara Croft's character.

If his premise is that male gamers see themselves not as Lara herself, but as a separate entity guiding Lara and keeping her out of trouble, his comments suddenly make sense.

But isn't the whole point of character-driven games like this to inhabit the character? Why do the rules change because she's a girl? When I pick up Tomb Raider, I won't be guiding or directing Lara, I will fucking be Lara. Since video gaming in its current form is primarily wish fulfillment and power fantasy, that relationship demands that I pretend, for a little bit, that I am the one doing all this cool shit, not that I am helping a computer lady do it. Everyone wants to fly a fighter jet, but this guy thinks I'd rather stay in the flight tower rather than play a female pilot.

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