It's a great game but there are these two scenes, man...

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#1 Posted by Jeust (10648 posts) -

*Spoilers*

There are these two scenes that break completely the immersion for me: the times where Lara fights for a knife at the beginning with an islander, and the time she fights for a gun in the end with the main antagonist.

How could scrawny girl win the dispute of a weapon with physically strong man?

Video games!

#2 Posted by Demoskinos (14831 posts) -

Because strength isn't everything when it comes to physical combat? There are plenty of martial arts disciplines and self defense techniques that allow smaller people to take out larger people.

#3 Edited by Jeust (10648 posts) -

@demoskinos said:

Because strength isn't everything when it comes to physical combat? There are plenty of martial arts disciplines and self defense techniques that allow smaller people to take out larger people.

Yeah, but when she is in the ground, with the guy on top of her, and they are both disputing a weapon, I think it comes down to strength.

#4 Posted by slyspider (1227 posts) -

Assuming she really is a small frail body type, woman or not, with no training then yeah. She could kick my ass training or not, if I was hanging from a ledge my ass would fall off after about .2 seconds

#5 Edited by crithon (3239 posts) -

the sequel reveals.... SHE'S PART CYBORG!!!! All Neon Arms with Mech on it.

#6 Edited by HatKing (5950 posts) -

But the bits about a mystical island that doesn't want people to escape it, those were totally believable?

#7 Posted by ShaggE (6453 posts) -

What about the part where she walks off being impaled through the kidney like it was an annoying papercut?

#8 Posted by Jeust (10648 posts) -

@hatking said:

But the bits about a mystical island that doesn't want people to escape it, those were totally believable?

Have you heard of the Bermuda Triangle?

#9 Posted by TheBluthCompany (387 posts) -

@shagge: The lack of "falling into shock and bleeding out" is an impressive feat for a person. Also, she gets so many diseases in that wound over the course of the game.

#10 Posted by NTM (7379 posts) -

Those are the things that bothered you?... Hm. Those seem pretty minor.

#11 Edited by TheManWithNoPlan (5508 posts) -

You say it yourself. It's a video game. Sometimes fictional circumstances don't necessarliy abide by our own realistic expectations.

#12 Edited by HatKing (5950 posts) -

@jeust said:

@hatking said:

But the bits about a mystical island that doesn't want people to escape it, those were totally believable?

Have you heard of the Bermuda Triangle?

Well, maybe the island also gave her super strength!

Seriously though, that part didn't really bother me. Suspension of disbelief sucks to be a slave to. If there are logical inconsistencies within a narrative, that's one thing, but something not aligning with our perception of reality doesn't usually bother me - especially if it is in service of something larger. This game was all about making her into a hero. That's the development here. And part of that is empowering her as a female character. One of the methods is fighting our perception of what a female character is capable of. She overpowers male characters throughout the game, for example. That's probably only the most minor of examples of her empowerment, but it is consistent.

The parts that felt out of place to me were the weird death scenes. Those felt out of place in this game because they don't really serve toward anything other than that the animators thought they looked cool. Okay, maybe they wanted the environment to feel harsh, but turning the character you're trying to make seem heroic into a pincushion isn't the most effective means of that. They felt like something you'd see in a game that highlights violence or the desensitization of violence, but Lara's death sequences are easily the most gruesome thing in the game. Maybe if the enemy characters faced equally brutal ends, but then the game would turn into something way over the top.

Edit: I should disclose that this was one of my favorite games of last year.

#13 Posted by believer258 (11908 posts) -

@shagge said:

What about the part where she walks off being impaled through the kidney like it was an annoying papercut?

I take this as indisputable proof that she is superhuman.

Serious answer: She is clearly not "frail" or "weak". She's also quite clearly in damn good physical shape, unlike the islander who seems a little old and hasn't really taken care of himself at all. And she's afraid for her life and her adrenaline is pumping like crazy, whereas the guy on top of her is confident that he can pin her up until the moment where she shoots him and probably isn't putting literally everything he has into surviving. And it's not unrealistic to assume that, as a 21 year old child of a super-rich dude, she probably has had some self-defense training, especially focused on beating someone larger than her.

I mean, none of this is made absolutely certain, but there are plenty of factors that make Lara's victory in both scenarios believable, probably one of the most believable things in the game. It doesn't boil down to "he's bigger, so he's clearly got every advantage."

#14 Edited by believer258 (11908 posts) -

@jeust said:

@hatking said:

But the bits about a mystical island that doesn't want people to escape it, those were totally believable?

Have you heard of the Bermuda Triangle?

Whoa, whoa - you are questioning the fact that a young woman manages to overpower a physically larger man, but you're seriously bringing up the Bermuda fucking Triangle as a counterpoint to fictional mystical islands?

Just out of curiosity, are you the guy that started a thread that cited Return of Kings once?

#15 Edited by Jeust (10648 posts) -

@hatking said:

@jeust said:

@hatking said:

But the bits about a mystical island that doesn't want people to escape it, those were totally believable?

Have you heard of the Bermuda Triangle?

Well, maybe the island also gave her super strength!

Seriously though, that part didn't really bother me. Suspension of disbelief sucks to be a slave to. If there are logical inconsistencies within a narrative, that's one thing, but something not aligning with our perception of reality doesn't usually bother me - especially if it is in service of something larger. This game was all about making her into a hero. That's the development here. And part of that is empowering her as a female character. One of the methods is fighting our perception of what a female character is capable of. She overpowers male characters throughout the game, for example. That's probably only the most minor of examples of her empowerment, but it is consistent.

The parts that felt out of place to me were the weird death scenes. Those felt out of place in this game because they don't really serve toward anything other than that the animators thought they looked cool. Okay, maybe they wanted the environment to feel harsh, but turning the character you're trying to make seem heroic into a pincushion isn't the most effective means of that. They felt like something you'd see in a game that highlights violence or the desensitization of violence, but Lara's death sequences are easily the most gruesome thing in the game. Maybe if the enemy characters faced equally brutal ends, but then the game would turn into something way over the top.

Edit: I should disclose that this was one of my favorite games of last year.

Well I am a slave to suspension of disbelief. At least the parts that offend my reasoning. Because for a game that supposadly tries to make Lara vulnerable and the world dangerous and believable, having events that defy the personal sense of realism, it undermines any feelings of empowerment towards Lara. Because how can the developers empower Lara if it becomes blatantly unrealistic? Enough for a person to roll his/her eyes and say "Yep! It's a video game!", and cut his/her personal envolvement with the character. I don't think I can take her seriously when I think that under normal circunstances that or any other event had 0% chance of happening. It totally cuts whatever believability the story had going for it. Much like The Prestige with that anticlimatic ending. And a much serious offense than an helicopter inside a train tunnel in the Mission Impossible movie, with perhaps 1% chance of not crashing down.

#16 Edited by Jeust (10648 posts) -

@believer258 said:

@jeust said:

@hatking said:

But the bits about a mystical island that doesn't want people to escape it, those were totally believable?

Have you heard of the Bermuda Triangle?

Whoa, whoa - you are questioning the fact that a young woman manages to overpower a physically larger man, but you're seriously bringing up the Bermuda fucking Triangle as a counterpoint to fictional mystical islands?

Just out of curiosity, are you the guy that started a thread that cited Return of Kings once?

Huh?

Well with the Bermuda Triangle I mean to point the fact that there are things that defy our sense of realism, unexplained, yet not beyond our reality. If there are people that believe in ghosts, demons, angels and the paranormal, it is only a stretch to believe a demon could be poweful enough to curse an island. Besides it's in line with the mythos of adventure movies and games.

Return of Kings? Return of the King?

I remember that post. It was I, but that had nothing to do with this. And had a point that you seem like most people have missed. You don't have to like a guy, a writer, whatever to give him credit for a good insight. A person can be a machist and yet make a well thought out point about video games. Enough to garner discussion. But yeah, it is easier to dismiss something on the grounds that you don't like another.

#17 Posted by HatKing (5950 posts) -

@jeust: Well, in that case, I'm not really able to help you much. But, if it's any consolation, my buddy, who I probably have at least 75lbs on, beat me in an arm wrestling match at a bar a few days back. Physical size and pure strength don't always win out in these circumstances.

#18 Edited by Jeust (10648 posts) -

@hatking said:

@jeust: Well, in that case, I'm not really able to help you much. But, if it's any consolation, my buddy, who I probably have at least 75lbs on, beat me in an arm wrestling match at a bar a few days back. Physical size and pure strength don't always win out in these circumstances.

Yeah, that is true though.

#19 Edited by CornBREDX (5285 posts) -

Nevermind it is- weird... saw it somewhere else.. moving on.

#20 Posted by believer258 (11908 posts) -

@jeust said:

@believer258 said:

@jeust said:

@hatking said:

But the bits about a mystical island that doesn't want people to escape it, those were totally believable?

Have you heard of the Bermuda Triangle?

Whoa, whoa - you are questioning the fact that a young woman manages to overpower a physically larger man, but you're seriously bringing up the Bermuda fucking Triangle as a counterpoint to fictional mystical islands?

Just out of curiosity, are you the guy that started a thread that cited Return of Kings once?

Huh?

Well with the Bermuda Triangle I mean to point the fact that there are things that defy our sense of realism, unexplained, yet not beyond our reality. If there are people that believe in ghosts, demons, angels and the paranormal, why should it be that hard to believe a demon could be poweful enough to curse an island.

Return of Kings? Return of the King?

The Bermuda Triangle isn't really one of those things. Wikipedia says it wasn't even in the top ten dangerous waters for shipping, and they're totally reliable! But really, the Bermuda Triangle doesn't "defy our sense of realism". It's just a spot in the ocean that fiction and urban legends have picked as one of those places where funny things happen, when in reality funny things don't happen there.

As for the rest of that stuff? Despite my username, I'm hardly a religious person anymore. Just because some people believe it doesn't mean it holds water as a proof for anything. Aaaaaaaaaaaaand to bring this back around to the topic, how come you can believe that things "defy your sense of realism", yet have a difficult time believing that a woman could overpower a larger man? Why is the Bermuda Triangle acceptable when the idea of a woman being able to wrestle a gun or knife from a man's hand is not?

#21 Edited by Jeust (10648 posts) -

@believer258 said:

@shagge said:

What about the part where she walks off being impaled through the kidney like it was an annoying papercut?

I take this as indisputable proof that she is superhuman.

Serious answer: She is clearly not "frail" or "weak". She's also quite clearly in damn good physical shape, unlike the islander who seems a little old and hasn't really taken care of himself at all. And she's afraid for her life and her adrenaline is pumping like crazy, whereas the guy on top of her is confident that he can pin her up until the moment where she shoots him and probably isn't putting literally everything he has into surviving. And it's not unrealistic to assume that, as a 21 year old child of a super-rich dude, she probably has had some self-defense training, especially focused on beating someone larger than her.

I mean, none of this is made absolutely certain, but there are plenty of factors that make Lara's victory in both scenarios believable, probably one of the most believable things in the game. It doesn't boil down to "he's bigger, so he's clearly got every advantage."

Yeah, I take some of those points, but while she might not be frail of weak, the other guys had to fend off and fight to survive for some time, from immortal samurai and wolves. Technically, as Lara is portrayed, as a descendent from a rich family, and as a regular archeologist, I don't see in close quarters having much of a chance of surviving. Even by the fact that in close combat Lara has a very hard time killing any oponent when facing them openly, and without resorting to guns.

#22 Posted by CornBREDX (5285 posts) -

@jeust said:

@believer258 said:

@shagge said:

What about the part where she walks off being impaled through the kidney like it was an annoying papercut?

I take this as indisputable proof that she is superhuman.

Serious answer: She is clearly not "frail" or "weak". She's also quite clearly in damn good physical shape, unlike the islander who seems a little old and hasn't really taken care of himself at all. And she's afraid for her life and her adrenaline is pumping like crazy, whereas the guy on top of her is confident that he can pin her up until the moment where she shoots him and probably isn't putting literally everything he has into surviving. And it's not unrealistic to assume that, as a 21 year old child of a super-rich dude, she probably has had some self-defense training, especially focused on beating someone larger than her.

I mean, none of this is made absolutely certain, but there are plenty of factors that make Lara's victory in both scenarios believable, probably one of the most believable things in the game. It doesn't boil down to "he's bigger, so he's clearly got every advantage."

Yeah, I take some of those points, but while she might not be frail of weak, the other guys had to fend off and fight to survive for some time, from immortal samurai and wolves. Technically, as Lara is portrayed, as a descendent from a rich family, and as a regular archeologist, I don't see in close quarters having much of a chance of surviving. Even by the fact that in close combat Lara has a very hard time killing any oponent when facing them openly.

People are capable of amazing things under extreme circumstances. It is kind of strange if you don't believe that but believe things disappear into the Bermuda Triangle.

That being said this game is actively inspired (borderline stealing from) several empowered women films. The most obvious one being The Descent. It was done better in The Descent but if you understand what their inspiration is from it makes more sense.

In the old games Lara was just a rich girl who did gymnastics which somehow meant she was a bad ass. I can't say that holds much more believability. At least in this one it's based on her having to deal with some extreme circumstances. Granted some parts (like the flesh wound) aren't done particularly well, but again I think that's because of the inspirations this game had.

#23 Edited by Jeust (10648 posts) -

@believer258 said:

@jeust said:

@believer258 said:

@jeust said:

@hatking said:

But the bits about a mystical island that doesn't want people to escape it, those were totally believable?

Have you heard of the Bermuda Triangle?

Whoa, whoa - you are questioning the fact that a young woman manages to overpower a physically larger man, but you're seriously bringing up the Bermuda fucking Triangle as a counterpoint to fictional mystical islands?

Just out of curiosity, are you the guy that started a thread that cited Return of Kings once?

Huh?

Well with the Bermuda Triangle I mean to point the fact that there are things that defy our sense of realism, unexplained, yet not beyond our reality. If there are people that believe in ghosts, demons, angels and the paranormal, why should it be that hard to believe a demon could be poweful enough to curse an island.

Return of Kings? Return of the King?

The Bermuda Triangle isn't really one of those things. Wikipedia says it wasn't even in the top ten dangerous waters for shipping, and they're totally reliable! But really, the Bermuda Triangle doesn't "defy our sense of realism". It's just a spot in the ocean that fiction and urban legends have picked as one of those places where funny things happen, when in reality funny things don't happen there.

As for the rest of that stuff? Despite my username, I'm hardly a religious person anymore. Just because some people believe it doesn't mean it holds water as a proof for anything. Aaaaaaaaaaaaand to bring this back around to the topic, how come you can believe that things "defy your sense of realism", yet have a difficult time believing that a woman could overpower a larger man? Why is the Bermuda Triangle acceptable when the idea of a woman being able to wrestle a gun or knife from a man's hand is not?

Well the Bermuda Triangle is an example, like many others of places where strange events have possibly happened. I can give you another if you want. Roanoke? Atlantis? The Great Piramid of Giza?

There are a lot of situation where there is not a scientific and well established answer.

I have a hard time believing that a woman that has just recently become a tomb raider, scrawny, could overpower a man with large muscles and an experience of hardships, totally changing the aim of a gun from herself, to the man, with him in top of her.

#24 Posted by Hailinel (24798 posts) -

@jeust said:

@believer258 said:

@jeust said:

@believer258 said:

@jeust said:

@hatking said:

But the bits about a mystical island that doesn't want people to escape it, those were totally believable?

Have you heard of the Bermuda Triangle?

Whoa, whoa - you are questioning the fact that a young woman manages to overpower a physically larger man, but you're seriously bringing up the Bermuda fucking Triangle as a counterpoint to fictional mystical islands?

Just out of curiosity, are you the guy that started a thread that cited Return of Kings once?

Huh?

Well with the Bermuda Triangle I mean to point the fact that there are things that defy our sense of realism, unexplained, yet not beyond our reality. If there are people that believe in ghosts, demons, angels and the paranormal, why should it be that hard to believe a demon could be poweful enough to curse an island.

Return of Kings? Return of the King?

The Bermuda Triangle isn't really one of those things. Wikipedia says it wasn't even in the top ten dangerous waters for shipping, and they're totally reliable! But really, the Bermuda Triangle doesn't "defy our sense of realism". It's just a spot in the ocean that fiction and urban legends have picked as one of those places where funny things happen, when in reality funny things don't happen there.

As for the rest of that stuff? Despite my username, I'm hardly a religious person anymore. Just because some people believe it doesn't mean it holds water as a proof for anything. Aaaaaaaaaaaaand to bring this back around to the topic, how come you can believe that things "defy your sense of realism", yet have a difficult time believing that a woman could overpower a larger man? Why is the Bermuda Triangle acceptable when the idea of a woman being able to wrestle a gun or knife from a man's hand is not?

Well the Bermuda Triangle is an example, like many others of places where strange events have possibly happened. I can give you another if you want. Roanoke? Atlantis? The Great Piramid of Giza?

There are a lot of situation where there is not a scientific and well established answer.

I have a hard time believing that a woman that has just recently become a tomb raider, with a scrawny woman could overpower a man with large muscles and an experience of hardships, totally changing the aim of a gun from herself, to the man.

Atlantis is a myth. Or if it isn't, it's certainly not hard to fathom a coastal city being obliterated by a natural disaster. And the Bermuda Triangle is little more than a myth that was used to explain away planes that crashed in the ocean.

Yamatai, as is depicted in Tomb Raider, is pure fantasy setting. It takes very little from direct history, and takes a lot of liberties with it. In reality, Yamatai isn't even commonly speculated to be on some remote island; it's a region of one of the Japanese islands and has nothing to do with curses or samurai. Samurai didn't even exist during Japan's Yayoi Period. The entire concept of Yamatai and Himiko as depicted in the game was born out of the writers' imaginations. And if the entire concept of Yamatai as it exists in Tomb Raider is somehow more believable than a physically fit young woman being able to struggle against and overcome a male adversary, then I don't know what to tell you.

#25 Posted by Nightriff (5084 posts) -

I believe if someone has more drive they can overcome great things. It wasn't like she out wrestled the giant samurai in these situations, it was normal built guys that might have thought the wouldn't have a problem taking Lara out.

#26 Edited by Jeust (10648 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@jeust said:

@believer258 said:

@jeust said:

@believer258 said:

@jeust said:

@hatking said:

But the bits about a mystical island that doesn't want people to escape it, those were totally believable?

Have you heard of the Bermuda Triangle?

Whoa, whoa - you are questioning the fact that a young woman manages to overpower a physically larger man, but you're seriously bringing up the Bermuda fucking Triangle as a counterpoint to fictional mystical islands?

Just out of curiosity, are you the guy that started a thread that cited Return of Kings once?

Huh?

Well with the Bermuda Triangle I mean to point the fact that there are things that defy our sense of realism, unexplained, yet not beyond our reality. If there are people that believe in ghosts, demons, angels and the paranormal, why should it be that hard to believe a demon could be poweful enough to curse an island.

Return of Kings? Return of the King?

The Bermuda Triangle isn't really one of those things. Wikipedia says it wasn't even in the top ten dangerous waters for shipping, and they're totally reliable! But really, the Bermuda Triangle doesn't "defy our sense of realism". It's just a spot in the ocean that fiction and urban legends have picked as one of those places where funny things happen, when in reality funny things don't happen there.

As for the rest of that stuff? Despite my username, I'm hardly a religious person anymore. Just because some people believe it doesn't mean it holds water as a proof for anything. Aaaaaaaaaaaaand to bring this back around to the topic, how come you can believe that things "defy your sense of realism", yet have a difficult time believing that a woman could overpower a larger man? Why is the Bermuda Triangle acceptable when the idea of a woman being able to wrestle a gun or knife from a man's hand is not?

Well the Bermuda Triangle is an example, like many others of places where strange events have possibly happened. I can give you another if you want. Roanoke? Atlantis? The Great Piramid of Giza?

There are a lot of situation where there is not a scientific and well established answer.

I have a hard time believing that a woman that has just recently become a tomb raider, with a scrawny woman could overpower a man with large muscles and an experience of hardships, totally changing the aim of a gun from herself, to the man.

Atlantis is a myth. Or if it isn't, it's certainly not hard to fathom a coastal city being obliterated by a natural disaster. And the Bermuda Triangle is little more than a myth that was used to explain away planes that crashed in the ocean.

Yamatai, as is depicted in Tomb Raider, is pure fantasy setting. It takes very little from direct history, and takes a lot of liberties with it. In reality, Yamatai isn't even commonly speculated to be on some remote island; it's a region of one of the Japanese islands and has nothing to do with curses or samurai. Samurai didn't even exist during Japan's Yayoi Period. The entire concept of Yamatai and Himiko as depicted in the game was born out of the writers' imaginations. And if the entire concept of Yamatai as it exists in Tomb Raider is somehow more believable than a physically fit young woman being able to struggle against and overcome a male adversary, then I don't know what to tell you.

Well you must be foreign to the fact that there are a lot of mythical civilizations, with Atlantis being also much more than a coastal city, which happened to be described by Plato. It was funny how you dabbled the Great Piramid of Giza, of which there is no believable theory of how it was constructed with the tecnhologies though to be used at the time. And even Roanoke. Secondly concerning the theme of adventure in games and movies, there tends to be some paranormal subjects in between, so it is something acceptable (as being a norm of the genre), and - at least I - am not quick to rule out any event that don't fit science or my personal sense of reasonable, being that I cannot prove with certainty that something doesn't exist.

But on another hand I think I understand close quarters basics of combat, so I don't see much chance of her turning a gun against a man in that kind of situation. And it's not just the case of being a physically fit young woman, it's the fact that she seems inexperienced and scared. Just a fresh graduate, out of college, in a scientific expedition.

#27 Edited by Hailinel (24798 posts) -

@jeust said:

@hailinel said:

@jeust said:

@believer258 said:

@jeust said:

@believer258 said:

@jeust said:

@hatking said:

But the bits about a mystical island that doesn't want people to escape it, those were totally believable?

Have you heard of the Bermuda Triangle?

Whoa, whoa - you are questioning the fact that a young woman manages to overpower a physically larger man, but you're seriously bringing up the Bermuda fucking Triangle as a counterpoint to fictional mystical islands?

Just out of curiosity, are you the guy that started a thread that cited Return of Kings once?

Huh?

Well with the Bermuda Triangle I mean to point the fact that there are things that defy our sense of realism, unexplained, yet not beyond our reality. If there are people that believe in ghosts, demons, angels and the paranormal, why should it be that hard to believe a demon could be poweful enough to curse an island.

Return of Kings? Return of the King?

The Bermuda Triangle isn't really one of those things. Wikipedia says it wasn't even in the top ten dangerous waters for shipping, and they're totally reliable! But really, the Bermuda Triangle doesn't "defy our sense of realism". It's just a spot in the ocean that fiction and urban legends have picked as one of those places where funny things happen, when in reality funny things don't happen there.

As for the rest of that stuff? Despite my username, I'm hardly a religious person anymore. Just because some people believe it doesn't mean it holds water as a proof for anything. Aaaaaaaaaaaaand to bring this back around to the topic, how come you can believe that things "defy your sense of realism", yet have a difficult time believing that a woman could overpower a larger man? Why is the Bermuda Triangle acceptable when the idea of a woman being able to wrestle a gun or knife from a man's hand is not?

Well the Bermuda Triangle is an example, like many others of places where strange events have possibly happened. I can give you another if you want. Roanoke? Atlantis? The Great Piramid of Giza?

There are a lot of situation where there is not a scientific and well established answer.

I have a hard time believing that a woman that has just recently become a tomb raider, with a scrawny woman could overpower a man with large muscles and an experience of hardships, totally changing the aim of a gun from herself, to the man.

Atlantis is a myth. Or if it isn't, it's certainly not hard to fathom a coastal city being obliterated by a natural disaster. And the Bermuda Triangle is little more than a myth that was used to explain away planes that crashed in the ocean.

Yamatai, as is depicted in Tomb Raider, is pure fantasy setting. It takes very little from direct history, and takes a lot of liberties with it. In reality, Yamatai isn't even commonly speculated to be on some remote island; it's a region of one of the Japanese islands and has nothing to do with curses or samurai. Samurai didn't even exist during Japan's Yayoi Period. The entire concept of Yamatai and Himiko as depicted in the game was born out of the writers' imaginations. And if the entire concept of Yamatai as it exists in Tomb Raider is somehow more believable than a physically fit young woman being able to struggle against and overcome a male adversary, then I don't know what to tell you.

Well you must be foreign to the fact that there are a lot of mythical civilizations, with Atlantis being also more than a coastal city, which happened to be described by Plato. It was funny how you dabbled the Great Piramid of Giza, of which there is no believable theory of how it was constructed with the tecnhologies though to be used at the time. Secondly concerning the theme of adventure in games and movies there tends to be some paranormal subjects in between, so it is something acceptable, and, at least, I am not quick to rule out any event that don't fit science.

But on another hand I think I got understood close quarters basics of combat, so I don't see much chance of her turning a gun against a man in that kind of situation.

That's because I didn't feel like touching upon the pyramids, but if you insist, there are plenty of theories on how they were constructed, and they're not as unbelievable as you seem to claim. As far as Plato's account of Atlantis is concerned, his writings were fiction. His account of the fall of Atlantis was not a historical document; he was a philosopher, and he made up Atlantis to make a point.

And I can safely say that, as someone that has practiced aikido with adults of all shapes and sizes, the idea of a woman overpowering a man is not nearly the impossible task you seem to believe it is.

#28 Posted by JasonR86 (9707 posts) -
#29 Edited by Jeust (10648 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@jeust said:

@hailinel said:

@jeust said:

@believer258 said:

@jeust said:

@believer258 said:

@jeust said:

@hatking said:

But the bits about a mystical island that doesn't want people to escape it, those were totally believable?

Have you heard of the Bermuda Triangle?

Whoa, whoa - you are questioning the fact that a young woman manages to overpower a physically larger man, but you're seriously bringing up the Bermuda fucking Triangle as a counterpoint to fictional mystical islands?

Just out of curiosity, are you the guy that started a thread that cited Return of Kings once?

Huh?

Well with the Bermuda Triangle I mean to point the fact that there are things that defy our sense of realism, unexplained, yet not beyond our reality. If there are people that believe in ghosts, demons, angels and the paranormal, why should it be that hard to believe a demon could be poweful enough to curse an island.

Return of Kings? Return of the King?

The Bermuda Triangle isn't really one of those things. Wikipedia says it wasn't even in the top ten dangerous waters for shipping, and they're totally reliable! But really, the Bermuda Triangle doesn't "defy our sense of realism". It's just a spot in the ocean that fiction and urban legends have picked as one of those places where funny things happen, when in reality funny things don't happen there.

As for the rest of that stuff? Despite my username, I'm hardly a religious person anymore. Just because some people believe it doesn't mean it holds water as a proof for anything. Aaaaaaaaaaaaand to bring this back around to the topic, how come you can believe that things "defy your sense of realism", yet have a difficult time believing that a woman could overpower a larger man? Why is the Bermuda Triangle acceptable when the idea of a woman being able to wrestle a gun or knife from a man's hand is not?

Well the Bermuda Triangle is an example, like many others of places where strange events have possibly happened. I can give you another if you want. Roanoke? Atlantis? The Great Piramid of Giza?

There are a lot of situation where there is not a scientific and well established answer.

I have a hard time believing that a woman that has just recently become a tomb raider, with a scrawny woman could overpower a man with large muscles and an experience of hardships, totally changing the aim of a gun from herself, to the man.

Atlantis is a myth. Or if it isn't, it's certainly not hard to fathom a coastal city being obliterated by a natural disaster. And the Bermuda Triangle is little more than a myth that was used to explain away planes that crashed in the ocean.

Yamatai, as is depicted in Tomb Raider, is pure fantasy setting. It takes very little from direct history, and takes a lot of liberties with it. In reality, Yamatai isn't even commonly speculated to be on some remote island; it's a region of one of the Japanese islands and has nothing to do with curses or samurai. Samurai didn't even exist during Japan's Yayoi Period. The entire concept of Yamatai and Himiko as depicted in the game was born out of the writers' imaginations. And if the entire concept of Yamatai as it exists in Tomb Raider is somehow more believable than a physically fit young woman being able to struggle against and overcome a male adversary, then I don't know what to tell you.

Well you must be foreign to the fact that there are a lot of mythical civilizations, with Atlantis being also more than a coastal city, which happened to be described by Plato. It was funny how you dabbled the Great Piramid of Giza, of which there is no believable theory of how it was constructed with the tecnhologies though to be used at the time. Secondly concerning the theme of adventure in games and movies there tends to be some paranormal subjects in between, so it is something acceptable, and, at least, I am not quick to rule out any event that don't fit science.

But on another hand I think I got understood close quarters basics of combat, so I don't see much chance of her turning a gun against a man in that kind of situation.

That's because I didn't feel like touching upon the pyramids, but if you insist, there are plenty of theories on how they were constructed, and they're not as unbelievable as you seem to claim. As far as Plato's account of Atlantis is concerned, his writings were fiction. His account of the fall of Atlantis was not a historical document; he was a philosopher, and he made up Atlantis to make a point.

And I can safely say that, as someone that has practiced aikido with adults of all shapes and sizes, the idea of a woman overpowering a man is not nearly the impossible task you seem to believe it is.

Yes, but none of the theories is accepted as the definitive truth, as there persists uncertainty. Are you sure Plato made up Atlantis? There are plenty of theories that say otherwise, even some that consider the islands of Santorini as the remains of Atlantis. The point being made was that:

“There are more things in Heaven and Earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.”

William Shakespeare

About Lara, I know I also practiced Aikido, but in the cutscenes I did not see any Aikido move, nor is at any time sugested that she knows any self defense technique, or has anything special to her besides being "a Croft".

#30 Posted by Itwongo (1198 posts) -

@jeust: You ever see on the news about people pulling off crazy feats in a stressful situation? Like lifting a car or whatever? Adrenaline and willpower is potent shit. This is a guy lifting a helicopter.

#31 Edited by Jeust (10648 posts) -

@itwongo said:

@jeust: You ever see on the news about people pulling off crazy feats in a stressful situation? Like lifting a car or whatever? Adrenaline and willpower is potent shit. This is a guy lifting a helicopter.

I won't say it is impossible. I'll just say that is a question of belief. I can't see that myself. ahah

#32 Posted by StarvingGamer (8239 posts) -

@jeust said:

About Lara, I know I also practiced Aikido, but in the cutscenes I did not see any Aikido move, nor is at any time sugested that she knows any self defense technique, or has anything special to her besides being "a Croft".

Lol this thread is full of dumb, but I'd just like to point out the bajillion times when she hears Roth talking in her mind about remembering her training and other such bullshit. I can't imagine the mental gymnastics required to come to the conclusion that at no point in her training did she ever learn any form of self-defense.

#33 Posted by Hailinel (24798 posts) -

@jeust: Well, until someone uncovers ancient Egyptian documentation that explicitly states what process they used to build the pyramids, the exact specifics will remain a mystery. That's why the theories that exist are just that; theories. But the fact that they're theories doesn't make them less believable or invalid. It's just that there's no definitive proof that states which theory is closest to the mark.

As for Plato's tale of Atlantis, yes, he made it up. But there's a sucker born every minute, so of course as soon as the someone heard the story without the full context, stories of an actual Atlantis could easily spread. Not unlike the supposed face on Mars that just turned out to be a region of Martian terrain in shadow. Just as there's no Atlantis, there's no face on Mars, but that doesn't stop people from believing in either of them. It wasn't even until the 19th century that people started claiming that Plato's writing was some form of historical document. The idea of Atlantis as a real civilization didn't enter widespread attention until a book that was published in the 1880s written by a Minnesota politician that had absolutely no legitimate credentials as an archeologist or historian.

#34 Edited by tourgen (4500 posts) -

I think they got close enough to "Hollywood Real", as in, fake-real like an action movie given the tastes and commonly accepted truthy-physics of the time. So, nothing to do with actual reality but it looks gritty and cool. And as you noted someone at -50 -75lbs and in that position has 0% chance of survival in the real world.

I don't care about any of that, whatever they feel they need to make their game is fine with me as long as there is some craftsmanship in it.

My main problem with the game is the character control and what the game has you doing for the "fun". It's free and I'm not even going to bother with it more than I have.

#35 Edited by Jeust (10648 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@jeust: Well, until someone uncovers ancient Egyptian documentation that explicitly states what process they used to build the pyramids, the exact specifics will remain a mystery. That's why the theories that exist are just that; theories. But the fact that they're theories doesn't make them less believable or invalid. It's just that there's no definitive proof that states which theory is closest to the mark.

As for Plato's tale of Atlantis, yes, he made it up. But there's a sucker born every minute, so of course as soon as the someone heard the story without the full context, stories of an actual Atlantis could easily spread. Not unlike the supposed face on Mars that just turned out to be a region of Martian terrain in shadow. Just as there's no Atlantis, there's no face on Mars, but that doesn't stop people from believing in either of them. It wasn't even until the 19th century that people started claiming that Plato's writing was some form of historical document. The idea of Atlantis as a real civilization didn't enter widespread attention until a book that was published in the 1880s written by a Minnesota politician that had absolutely no legitimate credentials as an archeologist or historian.

Even so the questions remain, and with them come infinite possibilities, none of which can be disproved, because there is no facts. And calling people suckers for believing something you don't is not polite, nor reasonable, as you can't prove otherwise, no matter how much you loathe it.

@starvinggamer said:

@jeust said:

About Lara, I know I also practiced Aikido, but in the cutscenes I did not see any Aikido move, nor is at any time sugested that she knows any self defense technique, or has anything special to her besides being "a Croft".

Lol this thread is full of dumb, but I'd just like to point out the bajillion times when she hears Roth talking in her mind about remembering her training and other such bullshit. I can't imagine the mental gymnastics required to come to the conclusion that at no point in her training did she ever learn any form of self-defense.

Yeah, good point. I didn't remember those scenes. So she had training, but I didn't see anything special in those scenes I described. But I digress, I already got my answer, and there is no point for me to continue this discussion about Lara further.

Well, I'd appreciate that when you call something dumb you point it out why, because labbeling it dumb and walking away is dismissing it without any valid reason, and it's not polite to the person you're talking to, and there is no gain to either the one that posted the original point of view or the one that retorts to him, undermining an argument without providing any evidence.

#36 Posted by TruthTellah (9081 posts) -

So all the mystical craziness, magic healing, and general supernatural are easy to accept, but a woman appearing to be strong and able to defend herself is where it becomes unbelievable?

#37 Edited by Jeust (10648 posts) -

@truthtellah said:

So all the mystical craziness, magic healing, and general supernatural are easy to accept, but a woman appearing to be strong and able to defend herself is where it becomes unbelievable?

Mystical craziness - it is a general theme to the adventure genre, from Indiana Jones, to Uncharted, Tomb Raider.

Magic healing - it is a gameplay mechanic that is very broad in its use

Supernatural - unless you have a conclusive proof about a phenomenon you can't disprove any theory about it, no matter how insane it can appear.

This being said, these are three staples of the adventure genre in games. So to me, it is hard to notice anymore. And about the supernatural, unless you can provide conclusive proof a discussion about the absurd nature of such a phenomenon in that category, a discussion can continue to eternity.

And the question wasn't about the fact of a woman appering strong and able, and the way you phrased it make it seem like an example of white knighting, but the situations in which she was in. I couldn't believe that conclusion to both fights to be realistic. And I still have my grips with it, even because Lara is so weak at close combat in the game, but people can really make amazing feats of strength in extreme situations I believe. And this has nothing with badmouthing women.

So in conclusion, although yes, there are here two distinct arguable ideas, they can't be compared, because the phenomenons are in their nature different. But while I accept the possibility of the supernatural, and don't try to deny it with a spotty scientific argument, and am indifferent to magic healing, I didn't believe that Lara could have changed the outcome of those battles, but anything is possible, as it is documented, so there is the benefit of doubt, appart from assumption of lazyness in storytelling.

#38 Posted by Hailinel (24798 posts) -

@jeust said:

@hailinel said:

@jeust: Well, until someone uncovers ancient Egyptian documentation that explicitly states what process they used to build the pyramids, the exact specifics will remain a mystery. That's why the theories that exist are just that; theories. But the fact that they're theories doesn't make them less believable or invalid. It's just that there's no definitive proof that states which theory is closest to the mark.

As for Plato's tale of Atlantis, yes, he made it up. But there's a sucker born every minute, so of course as soon as the someone heard the story without the full context, stories of an actual Atlantis could easily spread. Not unlike the supposed face on Mars that just turned out to be a region of Martian terrain in shadow. Just as there's no Atlantis, there's no face on Mars, but that doesn't stop people from believing in either of them. It wasn't even until the 19th century that people started claiming that Plato's writing was some form of historical document. The idea of Atlantis as a real civilization didn't enter widespread attention until a book that was published in the 1880s written by a Minnesota politician that had absolutely no legitimate credentials as an archeologist or historian.

Even so the questions remain, and with them come infinite possibilities, none of which can be disproved, because there is no facts. And calling people suckers for believing something you don't is not very polite, nor reasonable, as you can't prove otherwise, no matter how much you loathe it.

I was referencing an old phrase. "There's a sucker born every minute." It's commonly misattributed to P.T. Barnum. Feel free to look it up.

And as I said before, the fact is that there is no Atlantis. There never was. The entire notion of Atlantis being an actual, real place and not a philosopher's imagining was completely pulled out of the ass of a midwestern American about 125 years ago. The possibilities, in this case, are not infinite. And they're not really for the pyramids, either. They weren't built by aliens, and they weren't shaped from the earth by any god. They're man-made constructs, of which the exact methods to build them have been lost to time.

#39 Edited by TruthTellah (9081 posts) -

@jeust said:

@truthtellah said:

So all the mystical craziness, magic healing, and general supernatural are easy to accept, but a woman appearing to be strong and able to defend herself is where it becomes unbelievable?

Mystical craziness - it is a general theme to the adventure genre, from Indiana Jones, to Uncharted, Tomb Raider.

Magic healing - it is a gameplay mechanic that is very broad in its use

Supernatural - unless you have a conclusive proof about a phenomenon you can't disprove any theory about it, no matter how insane it can appear.

These being said these are three staples of the adventure genre in games. So to me, it is hard to notice anymore. And about the supernatural, unless you can provide conclusive proof a discussion about the reality of such a phenomenon can continue to eternity.

And the question wasn't the fact that a woman appering string and able, and the way you phrased it make it seem like an example of white-kniting, but the situations in which she was in. I couldn't believe that conclusion to both fights to be realistic. And I still have grips with it, even because Lara is so weak at close combat in the game, but people can really make amazing feats of strength in extreme situation I believe.

Yeah, as you said, people can really make amazing feats of strength in extreme situations.

Plus, I've seen enough adventure movies and television shows to be rather used to men making giant leaps across chasms, pushing ridiculously large boulders, shooting near impossible shots, and just generally being a bit superhuman when they need it most. And while I may have not seen as many women in such scenarios, I can believe it just as much as all those guys who somehow caught and hung onto a branch above a cliff or beat up fifteen men with their bare fists.

#40 Edited by Jeust (10648 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@jeust said:

@hailinel said:

@jeust: Well, until someone uncovers ancient Egyptian documentation that explicitly states what process they used to build the pyramids, the exact specifics will remain a mystery. That's why the theories that exist are just that; theories. But the fact that they're theories doesn't make them less believable or invalid. It's just that there's no definitive proof that states which theory is closest to the mark.

As for Plato's tale of Atlantis, yes, he made it up. But there's a sucker born every minute, so of course as soon as the someone heard the story without the full context, stories of an actual Atlantis could easily spread. Not unlike the supposed face on Mars that just turned out to be a region of Martian terrain in shadow. Just as there's no Atlantis, there's no face on Mars, but that doesn't stop people from believing in either of them. It wasn't even until the 19th century that people started claiming that Plato's writing was some form of historical document. The idea of Atlantis as a real civilization didn't enter widespread attention until a book that was published in the 1880s written by a Minnesota politician that had absolutely no legitimate credentials as an archeologist or historian.

Even so the questions remain, and with them come infinite possibilities, none of which can be disproved, because there is no facts. And calling people suckers for believing something you don't is not very polite, nor reasonable, as you can't prove otherwise, no matter how much you loathe it.

I was referencing an old phrase. "There's a sucker born every minute." It's commonly misattributed to P.T. Barnum. Feel free to look it up.

And as I said before, the fact is that there is no Atlantis. There never was. The entire notion of Atlantis being an actual, real place and not a philosopher's imagining was completely pulled out of the ass of a midwestern American about 125 years ago. The possibilities, in this case, are not infinite. And they're not really for the pyramids, either. They weren't built by aliens, and they weren't shaped from the earth by any god. They're man-made constructs, of which the exact methods to build them have been lost to time.

Ok, still you called people who don't have your point of view, suckers. It isn't polite, nor respectful.

And about Atlantis, unless you can get a written confession of Plato, that Atlantis is a metaphor, I'm sorry but I have to disagree and say that there are infinite possibilities about the subject, even as, before the actual location of Troy was found, it was also refered as a myth.

About the piramid unless you can also come up with the actual plans by which it was built, or an universally accepted explanation, I have to disagree too, and say that there are infinite possibilies, because you can't disprove them, arguing with only the weak arguments "that is not rational" or "it is insane".

You can't simply fill the inconsistencies, and those inconsistencies create doubt, that leads to other hypothesis, any other hypothesis, they are infinite in nature.

And to me this discussion is over. We have to agree to disagree.

If you by any means come up with an universal accepted explanation of the construction of the pyramid, I'm sure you won't have any more financial worries and will be on your way to be a well known and successful individual. About the confession of Plato, well now, you can always fake it, but it won't probably get you very far.

#41 Edited by Sinusoidal (1499 posts) -

@jeust: You seem to be ignorant of a little thing called Occam's Razor. In short: the hypothesis that requires the fewest assumptions is the best candidate.

Suggesting that since we don't know exactly how the pyramids were made that it is equally as likely they were put together by aliens as by hundreds of slaves and dirt ramps violates this in that for the alien case to be true, we have to assume that aliens exist: something we have virtually no evidence for whatsoever, whereas dirt ramps and slaves aren't exactly unknown.

That, and if you want to find fault in Tomb Raider's narrative, how about the far more glaring misstep of Lara going from teary-eyed, boohoo-I-just-had-to-kill-a-deer pansy to ruthless-murderer-of-dozens-of-actual-people in the blink of an eye?

#42 Posted by LiquidPrince (15949 posts) -

This is the same girl who climbs all over cliff sides, mountains and busted ruins and you're disputing her upper body strength...? Now if it was Drake who was trying to fight her for the gun, then maybe you would have some sort of argument...

#43 Edited by Random45 (1209 posts) -

@jeust said:

@hatking said:

But the bits about a mystical island that doesn't want people to escape it, those were totally believable?

Have you heard of the Bermuda Triangle?

Whoa, whoa - you are questioning the fact that a young woman manages to overpower a physically larger man, but you're seriously bringing up the Bermuda fucking Triangle as a counterpoint to fictional mystical islands?

Just out of curiosity, are you the guy that started a thread that cited Return of Kings once?

Haha, yeah, this about sums up my reaction quite nicely.

#44 Edited by ArbitraryWater (11738 posts) -

There are infinite possibilities that a woman could defeat a man in combat. What if Lara was actually an alien with super strength? What if she was a robot? You can't say she wasn't, you have no proof. You aren't Rhianna Pratchett.

Online
#45 Edited by Random45 (1209 posts) -

@jeust said:

@believer258 said:

@jeust said:

@believer258 said:

@jeust said:

@hatking said:

But the bits about a mystical island that doesn't want people to escape it, those were totally believable?

Have you heard of the Bermuda Triangle?

Whoa, whoa - you are questioning the fact that a young woman manages to overpower a physically larger man, but you're seriously bringing up the Bermuda fucking Triangle as a counterpoint to fictional mystical islands?

Just out of curiosity, are you the guy that started a thread that cited Return of Kings once?

Huh?

Well with the Bermuda Triangle I mean to point the fact that there are things that defy our sense of realism, unexplained, yet not beyond our reality. If there are people that believe in ghosts, demons, angels and the paranormal, why should it be that hard to believe a demon could be poweful enough to curse an island.

Return of Kings? Return of the King?

The Bermuda Triangle isn't really one of those things. Wikipedia says it wasn't even in the top ten dangerous waters for shipping, and they're totally reliable! But really, the Bermuda Triangle doesn't "defy our sense of realism". It's just a spot in the ocean that fiction and urban legends have picked as one of those places where funny things happen, when in reality funny things don't happen there.

As for the rest of that stuff? Despite my username, I'm hardly a religious person anymore. Just because some people believe it doesn't mean it holds water as a proof for anything. Aaaaaaaaaaaaand to bring this back around to the topic, how come you can believe that things "defy your sense of realism", yet have a difficult time believing that a woman could overpower a larger man? Why is the Bermuda Triangle acceptable when the idea of a woman being able to wrestle a gun or knife from a man's hand is not?

Well the Bermuda Triangle is an example, like many others of places where strange events have possibly happened. I can give you another if you want. Roanoke? Atlantis? The Great Piramid of Giza?

There are a lot of situation where there is not a scientific and well established answer.

I have a hard time believing that a woman that has just recently become a tomb raider, scrawny, could overpower a man with large muscles and an experience of hardships, totally changing the aim of a gun from herself, to the man, with him in top of her.

The hell?

Sorry to double post, but Jesus Christ dude, do you READ what you write before you post it? I'm just kind of speechless.

#46 Posted by TruthTellah (9081 posts) -

There are infinite possibilities that a woman could defeat a man in combat. What if Lara was actually an alien with super strength? What if she was a robot? You can't say she wasn't, you have no proof. You aren't Rhianna Pratchett.

Okay, Lara Croft actually turning out to be an android is my favorite development in the series yet. What a reboot!

#47 Posted by crithon (3239 posts) -

@arbitrarywater said:

There are infinite possibilities that a woman could defeat a man in combat. What if Lara was actually an alien with super strength? What if she was a robot? You can't say she wasn't, you have no proof. You aren't Rhianna Pratchett.

Okay, Lara Croft actually turning out to be an android is my favorite development in the series yet. What a reboot!

YES, PLEASE!!!! At least redesign her to keep the scars from the impalement she's received through out this game.

#48 Edited by Sharpless (469 posts) -

I've been sitting here, trying to think of where to start in my response to this thread, but all I can come up with is...

Really?

There are dozens of places to find a lack of realism in this game, potential things that could disrupt your immersion in it, and yet the one thing you grab onto is, essentially, "Small, weak woman couldn't possibly wrestle a weapon from big, strong man"? The fact that I had the option of firing arrows directly into people's brains with relatively minimal effort seems a lot more immersion-breaking to me. Her ability to defend herself in some CQC barely registers, compared to her Solid Snakesque accuracy and stealth capabilities.

#49 Edited by TheFreeMan (2712 posts) -

The scene at the end goes like this: She stabs him with her climbing axe before he lands on her, then she briefly pushes him off and yanks the gun that he's not even holding (it's in his holster) off of him and shoots him. There's no dispute for the gun. The first time she kills someone, she knees that guy in the groin and then bites his ear off, and we don't know anything about his physical state (maybe he was drunk? suffering from disease? beats me), so it's not too much of a stretch. Then again, Lara takes a pipe through the gut and steps in a bear trap amongst a billion other things and is perfectly fine. I feel like it's weird if there's a break in suspension of disbelief for these fight scenes and not for, like, the grievous bodily harm that Lara just ignores, but that's just me. I can't remember any fight for a knife. I played through it this weekend and did it pretty quick so maybe I forgot about it.

#50 Edited by TruthTellah (9081 posts) -

@crithon said:

@truthtellah said:

@arbitrarywater said:

There are infinite possibilities that a woman could defeat a man in combat. What if Lara was actually an alien with super strength? What if she was a robot? You can't say she wasn't, you have no proof. You aren't Rhianna Pratchett.

Okay, Lara Croft actually turning out to be an android is my favorite development in the series yet. What a reboot!

YES, PLEASE!!!! At least redesign her to keep the scars from the impalement she's received through out this game.

And as the bandit has her pinned down, he sadistically licks a cut on her cheek, only to realize that it is actually oil. Her eyes then light up red as she bend his pitiful human hands into a mangled pretzel of flesh.

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