What's wrong with classes?

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#51 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -

@ERoBB said:

@KaosAngel said:

I don't understand what the TC wants...

Torchlight is a Diablo clone with a strong support for mods. The game never ends, sure the "core developer" stuff is there...but most people play Torchlight for mods.

Just for the sake of this, pretend mods don't exist. There's no telling what the community is gonna come up with. You can drive a car in Skyrim now, and I have no idea what to make of that shit. So let's just look at how the developers handle classes, which I think we could all agree needs a little breath of fresh air.

That's the dumbest thing I've heard. There WILL be mods, that's the ENTIRE POINT of Torchlight and MOST mods will be ported to Torchlight II. So right off the bat you have dozens of more classes, weapons, maps, etc.

The Community already built it and are STILL building.

There's no "if" for Torchlight II mods. It's already there.

#52 Edited by gamefreak9 (2327 posts) -

Your backward... why are you attached to lock-in from creation? We should be moving AWAY from that. Diablo 3 knows what its all about and maybe doesn't take it far enough. You choose something like I want to be mainly melee focused and jump into battles and deal damage. Then you can path it down within the game, aka you can choose to be a tank, you can choose to be a fast striking ninja, you can choose to be a two handed barb. Why lock in these choices from the beginning?

I hope in the future RPG's have NO classes, and you organically choose your favourite playstyle. Lock-in systems are backwards.

edit: though classes might be required for short games where you have no such time to organically develop. But most RPG's are long enough IMO.... especially action... and probably MMO.

#53 Posted by ERoBB (160 posts) -

@KaosAngel said:

@ERoBB said:

@KaosAngel said:

I don't understand what the TC wants...

Torchlight is a Diablo clone with a strong support for mods. The game never ends, sure the "core developer" stuff is there...but most people play Torchlight for mods.

Just for the sake of this, pretend mods don't exist. There's no telling what the community is gonna come up with. You can drive a car in Skyrim now, and I have no idea what to make of that shit. So let's just look at how the developers handle classes, which I think we could all agree needs a little breath of fresh air.

That's the dumbest thing I've heard. There WILL be mods, that's the ENTIRE POINT of Torchlight and MOST mods will be ported to Torchlight II. So right off the bat you have dozens of more classes, weapons, maps, etc.

The Community already built it and are STILL building.

There's no "if" for Torchlight II mods. It's already there.

What are you going to say when the reviews come in and fail to talk about the mods at all? Because they so rarely do. Because there's a difference between the core game, and what the mod community adds to it. Even when the game supports and encourages mods.

#54 Posted by ERoBB (160 posts) -

@gamefreak9 said:

Your backward... why are you attached to lock-in from creation? We should be moving AWAY from that. Diablo 3 knows what its all about and maybe doesn't take it far enough. You choose something like I want to be mainly melee focused and jump into battles and deal damage. Then you can path it down within the game, aka you can choose to be a tank, you can choose to be a fast striking ninja, you can choose to be a two handed barb. Why lock in these choices from the beginning?

I hope in the future RPG's have NO classes, and you organically choose your favourite playstyle. Lock-in systems are backwards.

I'm cool with respecing. But I also like choices in customization to matter. I like making a choice, then upgrading it and working on it, and then going back later to check out other playstyles. Something about being a max level character and just throwing on a different class' gear feels too easy to me.

#55 Posted by gamefreak9 (2327 posts) -

@ERoBB said:

@gamefreak9 said:

Your backward... why are you attached to lock-in from creation? We should be moving AWAY from that. Diablo 3 knows what its all about and maybe doesn't take it far enough. You choose something like I want to be mainly melee focused and jump into battles and deal damage. Then you can path it down within the game, aka you can choose to be a tank, you can choose to be a fast striking ninja, you can choose to be a two handed barb. Why lock in these choices from the beginning?

I hope in the future RPG's have NO classes, and you organically choose your favourite playstyle. Lock-in systems are backwards.

I'm cool with respecing. But I also like choices in customization to matter. I like making a choice, then upgrading it and working on it, and then going back later to check out other playstyles. Something about being a max level character and just throwing on a different class' gear feels too easy to me.

A hefty penalty is probably sufficient , or like D3 a buff for sticking with a play-style. Its very inconvenient to have to start 30 characters just to get the build right. Its pointless. If you had finished diablo 3, which you quite obviously haven't you would realize what REAL experimentation is, it puts all other games to shame on that front. Level 1 to 60 was one huge experiment, trying out like hundreds of builds trying to get the feel just right. And then putting your experiments to the test in Inferno mode at level 60. I've probably tried more buids and playstyles in one character of D3 that the total different approaches i've ever had in all RPG's i've ever played... and i'm a pretty hc veteran when it comes to RPG's. I've tried using almost every skill as a foundation for my wizard, I might have tried over 500 combinations.

#56 Posted by BirdkeeperDan (400 posts) -

Most RPGs are no longer number based. Obviously numbers still drive the underlying system but players are no longer asked to comprehend the system. Numbers were the primary basis for customization in older games. You could have a lot of it because it was relatively cheap to include. Now having more classes requires, more animations, more voice acting, more particle effects, essentially more cost. Developers aren't against what you want but when it comes down to it they are not going to put that much work into a class thats odd or redundant.

I agree it's too bad, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect many classes in big budget games. Personally I want 30+ classes, 200+ skills, 1000+ spells, 5000+ crafting items but honestly not enough people have the comprehension required to enjoy such a game. But at least I can still play the old games.

#57 Posted by triple07 (1193 posts) -

You seem to be asking an awful lot out of game developers. And particularly a small development team in Runic games. For me 4 to 5 classes is plenty as long as they are unique and not just palette swaps of another in the game. I'm even fine with 3 if they give you specializations of something. I really enjoyed Skyrim's class system as it allowed you to do whatever and didn't have any real class system to speak of, you simply chose what you wanted to do.

Again I feel that your criticism of Torchlight and Torchlight 2 is kinda ridiculous since the development team is so small I doubt they could pump out however many classes you want to be in the game while still having a decent amount of content. So I'm not really sure what you want out of them.

#58 Posted by ERoBB (160 posts) -

@triple07: I definitely don't mean to criticize the Torchlight devs. They're a small team putting out a refined product for only $20. They deserve props, but I think I'd still like to see at least six classes out of the box. But as long as they're deep enough it sort of comes out in the wash.

#59 Posted by ERoBB (160 posts) -

@BirdkeeperDan said:

Most RPGs are no longer number based. Obviously numbers still drive the underlying system but players are no longer asked to comprehend the system. Numbers were the primary basis for customization in older games. You could have a lot of it because it was relatively cheap to include. Now having more classes requires, more animations, more voice acting, more particle effects, essentially more cost. Developers aren't against what you want but when it comes down to it they are not going to put that much work into a class thats odd or redundant.

I agree it's too bad, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect many classes in big budget games. Personally I want 30+ classes, 200+ skills, 1000+ spells, 5000+ crafting items but honestly not enough people have the comprehension required to enjoy such a game. But at least I can still play the old games.

We think alike. I also love/miss turn based combat in RPGs. So maybe I'm just a dinosaur...

#60 Posted by StarvingGamer (7560 posts) -

Class balance is important because you don't want players to feel like they made the "wrong" decision at a time when being informed would be highly impractical if not impossible. It is impossible to have a satisfying difficulty curve when some players are clearing the content regardless of effort and others are finding progression impossible, regardless of skill.

Also, a wider variety of imbalanced classes is more likely to decrease diversity, not increase it. If you have three total ranged classes that are all of approximate power you are more likely to have an even spread. If you have ten total ranged classes with two clear-cut winners in the strength department, you are more likely to have 98% of players eventually fall into those two classes.

Of course the dream is to have infinite classes all balanced against each other and the game content, each with a unique playstyle and flavor. Unfortunately that is impossible, and every class that gets added to a game increases the potential for imbalance by orders of magnitude. Within a vaccuum this imbalance may not matter but in the modern era of the internet and a massive social gaming audience, no single-player game is a solitary experience.

Balance matters.

#61 Posted by Zekhariah (694 posts) -

It is a bit difficult to draw on the line between having classes vs.going skills only when the number of classes looks silly.

For the most part, the removal of a great number of classes seems like a good move to me. The issue with many class games is that the individual class is so specified that their will be a limited number of correct ways to level. Player agency seems a bit greater when you start with a greater template (or no template) and choose skills to shape how the character works. Even if certain initial choices more or less spell out everything you will do further on, to the point where it might as well have been a single path class, there is more of a sense of ownership.

#62 Posted by ArbitraryWater (11004 posts) -

I too like games with large numbers of character classes. Wizardry 8, for example, has 15 classes and they're all pretty viable as part of a party of 6. Same goes for Baldur's Gate II and its repertoire of 2nd edition classes, class kits and multiclass options. That being said, both of those games are pretty linear as far as character progression goes, with only a few ways to build any given character. In a game where I'm not commanding a small army of dudes, I want my character progression options to be more open, a la Elder Scrolls or Fallout.

That being said, if we want to talk about the negative consequences of too many character classes, we could talk about D&D 3.5 and the crippling imbalances that that sucker had.

#63 Posted by triple07 (1193 posts) -

@ERoBB said:

@triple07: I definitely don't mean to criticize the Torchlight devs. They're a small team putting out a refined product for only $20. They deserve props, but I think I'd still like to see at least six classes out of the box. But as long as they're deep enough it sort of comes out in the wash.

I understand, I would love to see them add more classes as well, but in the end I would rather see more content with 4 to 5 classes. Just my opinion though.

I feel that your criticism can be applied to other games a lot easier. Games like Dragons Dogma feel like they didn't really create more than 3 classes and a palette swap later in the game.

#64 Posted by BirdkeeperDan (400 posts) -

@ERoBB: Wasteland 2 might bring back that type of gameplay. It obviously won't help with the lack of classes but might lead to some other similiar projects which could.

@StarvingGamer: I hate this idea of balance in RPGs. I always get my choices nerfed because I made the right choice, and others can't compete. As far as I'm concerned choosing the best strategy and character should be the primary and sometimes the only skill involved in a RPG. I find this style gameplay that require careful decision making rewarding. When you perfectly balance all the character choices they lose censequence and I lose interest. I don't mean for this to apply to all RPGs because that label is archaic.

#65 Edited by Tennmuerti (7720 posts) -

@ERoBB said:

I'm sorry the other poster's "one sentence responses" weren't to your liking. I myself enjoyed them. I'm also very sorry you feel you've gone ignored in this discussion. Here's a picture of a cute puppy. I hope you feel better soon.

I hope you won't feel the need to pressure me into being what you want me to be, in the future. I hope you'll accept me, like this cute puppy. Be well.

I said nothing about disliking other posters responses, I was plainly referring to your trite and pointless first responses to me, if you read the edit i pointed to. Why do you insist with continuing this pointless derogatory bullshit, even after I have tried to talk on topic with you?

Nor did I pressure you into being anything. I pressured you into a proper reply, which you eventually did. Learn to read whats written not what you imagine I said.

We had finally started a discussion, both in regards to classes and Torchlight 2, to which you could have replied to just like you did to other people, yet you choose to write this BS to me.

#66 Posted by StarvingGamer (7560 posts) -

@BirdkeeperDan: You and I seem to have a different definition of balance. To me a "balanced" RPG is an RPG where all character classes have an equal potential for success. You're right, decisions should still matter and intelligently building your character should be rewarded. A Warrior that invests all their points into Int should be functionally useless. My only argument is that players shouldn't be punished just because they picked X class instead of Y during character creation, a point in time where 99.9% of RPGs haven't provided you enough information to make anything approaching an informed decision.

#67 Posted by Neferon (262 posts) -

Classes usually make me feel like I might miss out on something. Different games do different classes well. I like the Elder Scrolls approach better because it allows me to do whatever I feel like doing at the time.

While I think classes (which lock you into a certain collections of playstyles) have a valid place in games, I'm much more interested to see if game designers can't think of other structures of character customization.

#68 Posted by BirdkeeperDan (400 posts) -

@StarvingGamer: I feel this comes down mostly to a contrast between old and new RPGs. In older games you were given plenty of information and you could spend hours creating your party before the adventure began. I think your right that balance is important for most modern games where they don't give you enough information upfront. However I think the older design is still viable and would be welcomed by a lot of older gamers. Ideally this would have many classes each having pros and cons and a multiple character party so you have to consider how the classes compliment one another.

#69 Posted by Veektarius (4147 posts) -

I like having lots of classes with lots of options. Games like NWN 1 & 2 had a ton of them. Still, it's not hard to see how it adds to development time, even without proper balancing.

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