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Posted by babomb

Awesome

Posted by BaconGames

Hmm...I wonder if Patrick has opinions about Metal Gear.

Posted by Migsse

Would you consider posting an audio only version of this Bombin' the A.M. for those that do not want the video version, please?

Posted by AlexanderSheen

The guy who's name is Skullface doesn't fit into Metal Gear? Haha, such bullshit.

Posted by BeyondStrange

@migsse: That exists. I don't think they post it to the website, but it is on iTunes.

Edited by BaconGames

It's actually good to hear that both Patrick and particularly Alex shared a lot of my experience with Infamous, if only because a fundamental apathy or dislike of characters and story is increasingly a central reason for me to put a game down and move on. It's not a categorical reason, because I'll leave the door open for ironic appreciate or effectively ignore bad characters or storytelling but when I can't boy does it leave me completely disinterested.

Posted by patrickklepek

@migsse said:

Would you consider posting an audio only version of this Bombin' the A.M. for those that do not want the video version, please?

Psst...we've been doing that forever! Check the podcasts tab.

Staff
Edited by Berserker976

So, haven't watched all the way through yet but, is the InFamous 2 thing a joke or did they really forget the game isn't called InFamous 2?

Posted by MooseyMcMan

I think they probably meant inFAMOUS Second Son, not inFAMOUS 2.

Moderator
Edited by Sydlanel

I don't want to be contrary, but as much as I agree that MOST of infamous 1 and 2 are quite bland on the surface, both of them get to a point where there is an impressive narrative shift that really make the rest of the game come into perspective. Some people find them more effective than others, but you wouldn't have experienced them if you quit before 60% across the game @alex.

Maybe it is a problem of the structure, and I'll be the first person to say that the morality slider system is dated and uninteresting, and that the general side mission design is not terribly exciting either, but I feel that they have pretty strong writing, if you allow it to build sufficiently. Before those important narrative turning points, I also felt rather uninterested not particularly invested in the narrative or the characters... But the series has been one of the few to genuinely suprise me.

I also agree that the presentation in E3 was really contrasting with the spirit of the game, but I'm really glad the game did not subscribe to the tinfoil hat paranoia too profoundly, or I believe it would have been in an even worse position.

I dont know, don't take it the wrong way Alex, but if you are willing to write off the quality of writing of a franchise, you should at least experience it to completion. I'm not saying it is the best, but its easily an unexpected underdog, and surprisingly a pretty heavy hitter, far better than many other story driven games.

About MGS, I kind of got burned out by MGS4, that ending was just too dumb, and I don't know if I can go back to that point in which I enjoyed the dumb pseudo hystorical / aparently darker tone. That said think MGS3 kind of tried to be dark in sections, it just didn't really translate that well. And also there is the fact that ground zeroes is really just the thinnest section of a game, the goofyness could still be there, but the technology and the particular subject matter could be masking it. We might have to wait for Phantom pain to really get it.

I do feel a bit sad for Kojima though, It's quite clear that he is tied to MGS now, but it is becoming increasingly obvious that he is burnt out with his own creation too.

Edited by CaLe

Kojima failed to make Paz a character you can easily sympathize with. I know I felt no sympathy for her because she came across as an asshole in the audio tapes I listened to her in, and I think it's because he failed at making her someone you cared about that his usage of her comes across as being so blunt and forced to a lot of people.

The fact that your feelings about what happens at the end of Ground Zeroes may be directly proportional to how much effort you put into building your base in Peace Walker also makes its impact whiff completely for a lot of people. Kojima wanted the ending of Ground Zeroes to fill the player with a desire for revenge and retribution, but he locked the ability to obtain those feelings behind conditions that many would never meet.

I can understand people having problems with how characters and events were handled, but my being so impressed by the game itself, the controls in particular, completely overshadows any misgivings I have with the story and characters. That stuff barely enters my mind because the rest of it is operating at such a high level. I viewed Ground Zeroes as a glimpse of what's to come and was more than satisfied.

Posted by ProfessorEss

Shoulda popped up to Nova Scotia @patrickklepek

We just had a blizzard with 150km winds that left us under 2+ feet of snow, followed by a window-pelting ice storm that covered everything in half an inch of ice. Then that was followed by a torrential downpour that took all the snow and ice away.

Unfortunately no stogies and whiskey on the porch, it was more Guinness and Pokemon Season 4 on the couch with my wife and newly-Pokemon-obsessed son.

Posted by geirr

The most damnable thing about Ground Zeroes is its lack of a PC release.

Posted by MrGtD

The guy who's name is Skullface doesn't fit into Metal Gear? Haha, such bullshit.

You misunderstood. A villain named Skull Face with no skin is perfectly Metal Gear. That he is shooting bolts into people's legs and forcing them to rape each other is not.

Edited by Stealthmaster86

@cale said:

Kojima failed to make Paz a character you can easily sympathize with. I know I felt no sympathy for her because she came across as an asshole in the audio tapes I listened to her in, and I think it's because he failed at making her someone you cared about that his usage of her comes across as being so blunt and forced to a lot of people.

The fact that your feelings about what happens at the end of Ground Zeroes may also directly proportional to how much effort you put into building your base in Peace Walker also makes its impact whiff completely for a lot of people. Kojima wanted the ending of Ground Zeroes to fill the player with a desire for revenge and retribution, but he locked the ability to obtain those feelings behind conditions that many would never meet.

I can understand people having problems with how characters and events were handled, but my being so impressed by the game itself, the controls in particular, completely overshadow any misgivings I have with the story and characters. That stuff barely enters my mind because the rest of it is operating at such a high level. I viewed Ground Zeroes as a glimpse of what's to come and was more than satisfied.

Any sympathy for Paz was thrown out the window in Peace Walker. Stealing ZEKE, being a spy for Cipher, and lying to Big Boss. I want Skull Face dead because of what he did to Mother Base than what he did to Paz.

Posted by spilledmilkfactory

+1,000,000 to @patrickklepek's Metal Gear comments. Kojima is nowhere near an empathetic and grounded enough writer to pull off the gross shit that he employs in the ending. And the execution was so heavy-handed it came across as laughably nasty. I don't feel like many long-time Metal Gear fans like myself were expecting something like that.

I guess you could say... "They played us like a goddamn fiddle!"

Edited by normandshinsuke

@cale: Totally! they didn't really reflect the fact that people that played peace walker have an attachment to the base and to see it not be some sort of long game play segment where your moving through the base is a missed opportunity.

Posted by StraightGrizzly

Does Alex like any game series? It seems like every time they mention a particular series, Alex doesn't care for it in some way.

Edited by GasparNolasco

Kojima did warn he was going to add hard themes in this game. People talk about the tone because they are afraid to say the guy "went too far" and sound like antiquated prudes. Metal Gear never had tone consistency anyway.

Truth is Kojima is kinda a like Lars Von Trier of videogames, an easy target with foreign sensibilities that acts all artsy wanting to cause impact and call attention -- his fans, that are a very passionate bunch (don't get me wrong, I'm one of them), get delighted with how crazy he is and how far he goes with his message -- and everyone else goes up in arms saying he's this and that.

Posted by GasparNolasco

@mrgtd said:

@alexandersheen said:

The guy who's name is Skullface doesn't fit into Metal Gear? Haha, such bullshit.

You misunderstood. A villain named Skull Face with no skin is perfectly Metal Gear. That he is shooting bolts into people's legs and forcing them to rape each other is not.

That was not the first time someone was raped in the series, just saying.

Edited by Rafaelfc

Not to spoil anything for anyone. But second son's "bad" ending is pretty goddamn brutal.

Posted by NoelVeiga

Yeah, Patrick pretty much nails it here. I've liked MGS over the years and I'm disappointed in the handling of Ground Zeroes for the same reasons he is. The events here are so callous and just nasty that I was thrown right off the game, stopped being engaged with what was happening and started wondering about why Kojima made these creative choices.

So it's not that the violence was "too much violence", it's that it was the kind of violence that a creator makes as a challenge to the audience, seeking shock rather than an emotional reaction, and that kills all suspension of disbelief, even just as a defense mechanism against the vicious crap you're being made to watch.

I like the guy, but Kojima just doesn't have the directorial ear to subject people to minutes upon minutes of deliberately cringe-worthy crap and not lose them along the way. Half the joke in this games is that he pushes so many minutes of mild campy fluff and he can barely keep people paying attention. If you swap that out for genuinely nasty crap it's just not gonna play very well or be very effective about making a point about torture and war.

Edited by BasketSnake

"Skullface doesn't fit in"? Is Psycho Mantis any better? No. "The End"? No. They're all dumb as shit. FATMAN for crying out loud! Kojima has always mixed serious stuff with the absurd, crazy stuff and as long as he does I can't take any of it seriously. Skullface is probably Liquid or some shit, his face just hasn't grown out yet. Plot twist? #internetz

Posted by MrGtD

@mrgtd said:

@alexandersheen said:

The guy who's name is Skullface doesn't fit into Metal Gear? Haha, such bullshit.

You misunderstood. A villain named Skull Face with no skin is perfectly Metal Gear. That he is shooting bolts into people's legs and forcing them to rape each other is not.

That was not the first time someone was raped in the series, just saying.

This was, however, the first time they made you listen to it and shoved it in your face.

Edited by CaLe

@mrgtd said:

@gasparnolasco said:

@mrgtd said:

@alexandersheen said:

The guy who's name is Skullface doesn't fit into Metal Gear? Haha, such bullshit.

You misunderstood. A villain named Skull Face with no skin is perfectly Metal Gear. That he is shooting bolts into people's legs and forcing them to rape each other is not.

That was not the first time someone was raped in the series, just saying.

This was, however, the first time they made you listen to it and shoved it in your face.

Well the audiolog is a collectible, right? So they don't shove it in your face. You don't have to listen to any logs either, so they don't 'make you' listen to it.

I finished the main mission about 10 times before even knowing that content was in there, and even then it was because I read about it online. I still haven't listened to whichever log it is in the game. The characters aren't interesting enough for me to care to listen to all the logs.

Posted by GasparNolasco

@mrgtd said:

@gasparnolasco said:

@mrgtd said:

@alexandersheen said:

The guy who's name is Skullface doesn't fit into Metal Gear? Haha, such bullshit.

You misunderstood. A villain named Skull Face with no skin is perfectly Metal Gear. That he is shooting bolts into people's legs and forcing them to rape each other is not.

That was not the first time someone was raped in the series, just saying.

This was, however, the first time they made you listen to it and shoved it in your face.

They pretty much shove it in your face with the B&Bs in MGS4 and imply it heavily with Volgin in MGS3. In this one, the bulk of the rape references are in a separate collectible, actually. The difference is just that they are more 'graphic' and lengthy, but you can skip them at will.

Edited by Oldirtybearon

@gasparnolasco said:

@mrgtd said:

@gasparnolasco said:

@mrgtd said:

@alexandersheen said:

The guy who's name is Skullface doesn't fit into Metal Gear? Haha, such bullshit.

You misunderstood. A villain named Skull Face with no skin is perfectly Metal Gear. That he is shooting bolts into people's legs and forcing them to rape each other is not.

That was not the first time someone was raped in the series, just saying.

This was, however, the first time they made you listen to it and shoved it in your face.

They pretty much shove it in your face with the B&Bs in MGS4 and imply it heavily with Volgin in MGS3. In this one, the bulk of the rape references are in a separate collectible, actually. The difference is just that they are more 'graphic' and lengthy, but you can skip them at will.

Hell, that's even suggesting that what you hear on the tapes even is rape. It's really hard to tell and in the one instance where you could argue it does happen (and is "shoved in your face") is when something like a zipper is heard in the audio. You know what happens? The tape cuts off not two seconds after. Now maybe I have missed a tape, but as it stands now with the "evidence" on hand people are blowing this shit way out of proportion.

You know, like the usual suspects are wont to do.

Posted by GasparNolasco

@oldirtybearon:

Yes. Which goes to the point on why are people so worked up over this. It's just part of this dev's proposition of making this game about the ugly part of war, Metal Gear has always shown the hero being broken and tired under the horrors and guiltiness of war. Instead of glorifying the situation, as most other war games do.

You think there wasn't rape and torture in any of the real wars depicted in your average Call of Duties and Battlefields? Yes there was quite a lot, you just can't hear it under all the glorification.

Posted by Dark_Lord_Spam

@gasparnolasco said:

@mrgtd said:

@gasparnolasco said:

@mrgtd said:

@alexandersheen said:

The guy who's name is Skullface doesn't fit into Metal Gear? Haha, such bullshit.

You misunderstood. A villain named Skull Face with no skin is perfectly Metal Gear. That he is shooting bolts into people's legs and forcing them to rape each other is not.

That was not the first time someone was raped in the series, just saying.

This was, however, the first time they made you listen to it and shoved it in your face.

They pretty much shove it in your face with the B&Bs in MGS4 and imply it heavily with Volgin in MGS3. In this one, the bulk of the rape references are in a separate collectible, actually. The difference is just that they are more 'graphic' and lengthy, but you can skip them at will.

Hell, that's even suggesting that what you hear on the tapes even is rape. It's really hard to tell and in the one instance where you could argue it does happen (and is "shoved in your face") is when something like a zipper is heard in the audio. You know what happens? The tape cuts off not two seconds after. Now maybe I have missed a tape, but as it stands now with the "evidence" on hand people are blowing this shit way out of proportion.

You know, like the usual suspects are wont to do.

You are right on the cusp of busting out a "What is rape, really?" line to defend the sexual assault of a fictional character, and I'm here to advise you to cut your damn losses while you still can.

Does Alex like any game series? It seems like every time they mention a particular series, Alex doesn't care for it in some way.

I'd say he absolutely does, but feel free to draw your own conclusions based on his last five reviews of franchise titles.

http://www.giantbomb.com/reviews/thief-review/1900-627/

http://www.giantbomb.com/reviews/nba-live-14-review/1900-619/

http://www.giantbomb.com/reviews/assassin-s-creed-iv-black-flag-review/1900-617/

http://www.giantbomb.com/reviews/nba-2k14-xbox-one-and-playstation-4-review/1900-611/

http://www.giantbomb.com/reviews/madden-nfl-25-xbox-one-and-playstation-4-review/1900-610/

Edited by Oldirtybearon

@gasparnolasco: Totally agree. When people talk about the "tone" of Metal Gear being "inconsistent" in Ground Zeroes (and presumably Phantom Pain) I have to wonder what games they were playing from '98 onward. Metal Gear Solid 2 for my money is the most insanely meta game in, well, video games. Metal Gear Solid 1 was only considered "goofy" because of the naming conventions involved with the characters; which is essentially "English words mashed together that sound bad ass to Japanese people".

For me, it'd be one thing if people said the games were just poorly written (I'd disagree with them but hey, other people are free to be wrong), but that's not what people are saying. People are saying that vagina bombs and gruesome depictions of wartime violence are out of bounds to Metal Gear. Why? I've yet to hear one good reason as to why Metal Gear is not allowed to be whatever Kojima and KojiPro wants it to be.

Bah, whatever. All the people bitching right now will still be in line on release day to pick up their copy of The Phantom Pain. Why? Because it's Metal Gear, and Metal Gear is awesome.

Edited by Oldirtybearon

You are right on the cusp of busting out a "What is rape, really?" line to defend the sexual assault of a fictional character, and I'm here to advise you to cut your damn losses while you still can.

Yeah, that's totally what I was doing. I wasn't at all speaking to the fact that the audio we hear doesn't even sound like sex. It's a lot of whipping and grunting. Paz is definitely being tortured, but to say that the audio is stuffed to the brim with rape is odd. You could interpret the audio as rape, I guess, but you'd have to really work for it.

Also, I wasn't saying "what is rape, really?" I didn't dispute the fact that the character is raped in the story; I am disputing the idea that people think it's "shoved in their faces" when it's merely alluded to and not outright depicted for the player.

Maybe you could climb off of that high horse of yours, eh fella?

Edited by gianthamish

i loved the gameplay in ground zeroes a whole lot - enough to make me excited for the phantom pain. that excitement was subsequently dulled when i realised that kojima is the guy who said he made the character of quiet "more sexy to encourage cosplay." that's the guy who is trying to tell this 'mature' story which touches on the torture of child soldiers and rape. he just doesn't have the track record in terms of writing to have any kind of trust from me in that regard (and i say this as longtime MGS fan who realises that the writing is garbage). for example, all the stuff about how snake is now meant to say less in order to express more with his face could be a result of them only having kiefer sutherland for a certain amount of time (there is literally only about a minute's worth of his VO in the entirety of GZ). all the other characters talk just as much shit as they did previously (the famous 'THEY PLAYED US LIKE A DAMN FIDDLE!' comes to mind).

i think what you say about that stuff kinda passing over people's heads in GZ is interesting, and largely due to its brevity. i think that if this kinda stuff runs rampant throughout a much larger game like the phantom pain, it'll be more difficult to ignore.

Posted by Jonny_Anonymous

I see no problem with the MGS thing that everybody is moaning about

Posted by Bocam

@oldirtybearon: Considering one of the tapes directly references the fact that Chico was forced to have sex with Paz, you can pretty safely say there was rape

Posted by Oldirtybearon

@bocam: Again, didn't say there wasn't. Try re-reading what I wrote.

Posted by Gaston

Keep up the great work :)

Edited by jasondesante

all the Patrick hate on youtube has got to stop. I have a feeling its those same people that have hated him since he joined, and that those people are older than he is, wished they were friends with everyone else at Giant Bomb, or wished they were a gaming journalist, but are neither of those things, and are spending their 30s clicking dislike on videos that have Patrick in them. Its really fucked up because he brings a lot of value to this site. Those who have accomplished nothing only have the like and dislike button so whatever. It's just fucked up that's all.

Its worse than 4 year old childish hate, this is stupid adult jealousy with haters too dumb to look into a mirror and realize that even if you don't like everything or most of what someone says, you definitely agree on things as well. It took me a while to learn that about Alex, but that is one of the things Giant Bomb has helped me understand about myself. I never hated Alex I wished he talked exactly like I wanted him to when listening and that was years ago and that was also a ridiculously stupid thing to expect. No one should expect that. Anyways, just grow to understand who the person is and if you still click dislike on all the videos that have Patrick in them, then go fuck yourself.

Edited by Sooty

Some of these complaints about Metal Gear are laughable, as in they are dumb.

As for rape or alluding to it, the stuff in Ground Zeroes is nothing compared to a lot of the shit I've seen on shows like The Shield (yikes) and American Horror Story, you don't even see anything in the damn game.

I guess people gotta feel and then tell the Internet to show how honourable they are. We will never get a good game that depicts the the POV of German soldiers during WW2 and the Holocaust because of these overly sensitive people.

Posted by AMyggen

@gasparnolasco: Did you just compare Kojima with Lars Von Trier? Boy...

And I'd argue that Kojima has never acted "artsy", really.

Posted by tourgen
Edited by AMyggen

@sooty: That's not the point and you know it. Most people who complain about this complain about the execution, not that there's a rape depicted in a video game more generally. Kojima shouldn't get points just for including such a serious subject if you feel the execution of it was lacking. The "if you disliked this you're against serious subjects being covered by games" argument needs to stop, because it's complete bullshit. Also, there was a big backlash against the rape you're talking about in The Shield among some fans when it aired, but that's neither here nor there.

In the TV world I think the controversy around the "That's My Dog" episode of Six Feet Under is pretty close to what we're seeing with GZ in that the detractors argue about the tone of the show/game compared to that moment and how it was executed.

Posted by TheDarkOn3

Speaking of Zoe Quinn, holy crap. I hope you guys can get one of the non-gagged participants of that jam on the show.

Edited by GasparNolasco

@amyggen:

He's maybe more referential than "artsy" -- It depends on how you define the term, I guess.

But yeah, maybe not the same kind of 'artsy' of Lars Von Trier, just that there is a lot of analogues between the two IMO. Particularly the way people within' their industries react to them.

Posted by arawk

As someone who already isn't a fan of the series really allowed to say that he doesn't like the way the guy creating the game is doing things? I'm not trying to start anything but I don't sit around a criticize the makers of say WOW (a game I don't play) because they do something "dumb" or whatever just because I don't like it.

Edited by spraynardtatum

What if Amy Hennig went to Sucker Punch?

Posted by Itwastuesday

@arawk said:

As someone who already isn't a fan of the series really allowed to say that he doesn't like the way the guy creating the game is doing things? I'm not trying to start anything but I don't sit around a criticize the makers of say WOW (a game I don't play) because they do something "dumb" or whatever just because I don't like it.

he bought the game and played it, and shared his thoughts. he has played past metal gear games. there also isn't any official paperwork that must be submitted in order to criticize a thing.

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