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PAX East 2014: Why Internet Jerks Aren’t Going to Win, And You Can Help

Depression Quest designer Zoe Quinn joined me to talk about the Internet, and how we can make things just a tiny bit better.

Apr. 17 2014

Cast: Patrick

Posted by: Patrick

In This Episode:

PAX East 2014

282 Comments

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MattyFTM

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Edited By MattyFTM  Moderator

Patrick, I hate you. Because these comments are going to be a nightmare to moderate.

But seriously, I'm looking forward to giving this a watch when I find the time. Thank you for trying to make the internet a better place, Scoops.

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stunik101

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porjos

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This panel is one of the biggest reasons I am heartbroken about missing PAX this year...thanks a bunch for posting this.

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Cripplor

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@christoffer: Wouldn't that fall under the umbrella of "Preaching to the Choir"?

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thekitkatshuffler

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I have to admire Patrick's cunning plan to avoid generating hate on the web for his contributions to Giant Bomb, by moving to Chicago and having the space he would have previously filled be taken by Matt "Dear God He's Condescending" Rory.

Bravo Patrick. Bravo.

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MrMazz

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very nice talk by all involved.

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MikeLemmer

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Edited By MikeLemmer

Good panel. The best part was Zoe's informal survey of former online harassers and how the common thread was "I changed because my friends weren't tolerating that bullsh*t", which is a strong argument against "don't feed the trolls".

I suspect the old "don't feed the trolls" tactic comes from a belief that anyone posting such bile online never wanted to be a part of the community and joined just to stir things up for the lulz. But now it seems like the majority of "trolls" are people who want to be a part of the community but hate a specific part of it & feel they have carte blanche to rip apart any parts they hate. (For example, people that love GiantBomb but despise Patrick.) In such cases, ignoring them would backfire horribly, as it implies acceptance of their behavior by the community they care about being a part of.

Two different types of trolls react very differently to two different ways of dealing with them. So which blanket method should you go with? The "lulz" trolls will eventually get bored & move on, even if you react to them, while they "heavily-invested" trolls will stick around for the long-term no matter what. Therefore, I'd go with the solution targeting the "heavily-invested" trolls, aka "don't tolerate that bullsh*t".

@tothenines: If you're going to use Joe Rogan as an example where the other method works, you're going to have to elaborate on it a bit. I'm not familiar with him or his situation and you left out any details so it might as well be... magic! *jazzhands*

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Seroth

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I like Patrick's idea of fighting against hate on the Internet by just being more positive online. I often won't post responses to anything unless it's some sort of criticism, but now I'm gonna stop reserving posts for that and just talk about how much I like something when I actually do like it...Starting with this post! :D

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Christoffer

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Edited By Christoffer

@cripplor: Reminding the choir maybe, yes. We know what we think but not always what we say/or don't say.

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Jazz_Lafayette

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Edited By Jazz_Lafayette
@white said:

I don't know. Publicly Personally affordable internet has been around for over 10 years. We got I've gotten by 10 years just fine with dicks on the internet. We'll I'll do just fine for another 10.

Know what I learned over the last 10 years using the internet? Have a The best defense for me is my thick skin. Oh, it also helps if you me to accomplish my goals if I leverage the anonymity of the internet by avoiding social media and not use your using my real name in any context.

Thought I would clarify your message a little bit for a less theoretical discussion.

@pocketroid said:

No audience reads 100 comments on Youtube [...]

I have actually done this multiple times, being one of the probably-insane individuals who will willingly wade into the YouTube comments section with an olive branch in their right hand and a banhammer in their left. It's true that it's almost impossible to change minds on such a forum, but I've found that it's almost always the case that you can turn a fallacy-ridden argument toward emotionally honest debate.

@cripplor said:

But you can't berate someone for being a dick until they stop, it just isn't possible.

Correct, which is why Patrick has so many times asked his detractors to discuss their feedback with him personally. The point they're making in this panel is that - if you are able to - you should be willing to engage disdain with sincerity, because so few people expect their opinion to be heard (which is why so many feel it necessary to shout that opinion) either online or off that you're more likely to engender a thoughtful reaction.

@neurotic: You're contributing more to change the environment of dialogue than you previously believed you could, and I don't think anyone can fault you for that.

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Benmo316

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Great job, guys. I'm glad you were able to film this!

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spraynardtatum

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Edited By spraynardtatum

Try imagining the internet as the largest amphitheater in the world. When you fill an arena that size full of individuals there will always be those that are loud, obnoxious, beer spilling, date groping, bad breathed, fun killers. It's insane to think that there wont be.

Some random person in that theater is going to get beer spilled on their head because the couple behind them is grinding their privates together without a single fuck given about the $13 beer sloshing out of the cup they're holding. 4 out of 10 people in the mosh pit are going to get a bloody nose because of some rogue elbow or thrown beer can. There will be black out drunks screaming obscenities at everyone they see. Individuals that steal phones and wallets out of peoples pockets. Fights. And more!!!!

Whenever you're dealing with a large group of people there are going to be some that no one wants there. The internet is that times 1000. It's magnified further because it's recorded. Everything doesn't happen in a single moment, it sticks there and is available to go back to later and re-experience. Patrick is right that it's just a small percentage of people causing problems but it's a small percentage of a huge huge HUGE number.

I agree that it's up to the good people to outweigh the output of the bad people. Stand up for yourself and others. If you see someone being bullied you can very easily diffuse the situation by characterizing them as a bully to their face (figuratively). It's the right thing to do. There's also no danger to it when the internet is anonymous.

If you were to call out the couple spilling beer on you at a concert you are very likely going to be punched in the face because you interrupted their hump session, they're drunk, and they don't like your face. On the internet you're safe to be the bigger person! They can't easily get to you because you're protected by anonymity. So poke the bear as much as you can! Be funnier than they are mean. Be nicer than they are loud. Be more responsible than they are stupid. You have nothing to lose. Also, 9 times out of 10 there's another random user waiting to back you up.

Getting rid of anonymity would just make it so that these jerks can gain access to your real life easier. It isn't a one way street. Good people AND bad people would have to use their real names and that means bad people can then find where you live. It's moronic to want less anonymity on the internet. It makes everything less safe and the consequences outweigh the benefits tenfold.

We can regulate this ourselves. We need good people speaking up better, and inventive ways to personalize what comments you want to see. I strongly believe that being able to minimize comments and ignore users on your personal browser when you see them behaving badly would solve 75% of the problems. The last 25% requires a conscious effort to make it better yourself.

Listen to Gandhi and be the change that you want to see in the world.

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Cripplor

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I hope nobody, including @patrickklepek gets me wrong. I think the effort he puts into promoting ACTUAL adult conversations about ACTUAL things in this community is invaluable.

I just tend to think that the ACTUAL adults in the community are the ones having all of the adult conversations, while the younger, less socially-savvy denizens of the web are the ones hurling suicide orders and "doing shit for teh lulz". The former will have little to no effect on the latter, and eventually the latter will grow up and behave more like the former. It's life. It's the internet. In both scenarios, any change comes from within, not from having a bunch of people telling you you're doing a bad thing and should feel bad.

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Zeeman155

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erik_mannistt

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Few points that disturbed me.This doesn't apply to the harassment bit but, I think we can all agree that there's always going to be bad apples in the society, the 99% are just fine but the 1% aren't. Why focus on the 1%? A good point from Zoe was that you should have a laugh about it and sort of ignore it, sort of not read comments.

Second bit:

There aren't "trolls", "that's harassment" but then there's trolling back from the one being harassed? If someone does X thing to you does it make it alright to do the same thing X to them as well? I don't see the reasoning behind this.

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geirr

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Awesome! I wanted to see this panel.

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bmccann42

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That was great, fantastic work Patrick and Zoe!!

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Asiwassaying

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Edited By Asiwassaying

First of all, if you want to "fight" internet jerks, maybe you shouldn't focus on the jerks themselves and more on your uneducated, frustrated, violent and stressed out American society. I'd bet Scandinavian websites don't deal with that level of vitriol, or Japanese sites.

Also, you should stop pointing fingers at the jerks, or the internet, and maybe start looking yourself in the mirror ask yourselves; why does it stick with me? Maybe because you let them, sure you shouldn't be blamed for being the victim, but why does it hurt you and not Bill Maher? Work on your self-confidence, if you don't do it for yourself, do it for the ones you love. Bullies are cowards and pick on people who don't fight back, if bullies picked on stronger people they would have confronted whoever or whatever made them feel weak about themselves and never became bullies in the first place. Patrick, you'll have to grow up, not the jerks, not the internet, you. If a fat person gets beaten down when someone calls him fat, that person needs to either stop being fat or stop associating "being fat" with shameful. You are not a child in a schoolyard being laughed at and ridiculed by everybody around, you are not scared and helpless juggling suicidal thoughts, you just need to stand straight, look them in the eye and smile.

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Christoffer

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@cripplor said:

I hope nobody, including @patrickklepek gets me wrong. I think the effort he puts into promoting ACTUAL adult conversations about ACTUAL things in this community is invaluable.

I just tend to think that the ACTUAL adults in the community are the ones having all of the adult conversations, while the younger, less socially-savvy denizens of the web are the ones hurling suicide orders and "doing shit for teh lulz". The former will have little to no effect on the latter, and eventually the latter will grow up and behave more like the former. It's life. It's the internet. In both scenarios, any change comes from within, not from having a bunch of people telling you you're doing a bad thing and should feel bad.

The conversation is about good people (adults or not) to speak out. I don't think trolls are bound to any age group (actually I know that). And what do you mean with "change comes from within"? Yes, but not without a reminder.

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The core of the message, being positive, is something I think about regularly. Yet, I'm sure if you look up all the comments I've made, you'll still find some that are somewhat dickish.

I feel part of what Zoe talked about, feelings that don't make you weak, also applies for the other side. I do sometimes make a dickish comment, because I do have feelings and I'm letting them known. Now, I don't make the comments that tell people to kill themselves, but there have been a good bunch of 'if you think so, you're crazy' ones.

This is not a one sided argument. We are all human yes. That means you will get hurt by mean comments, yes. But it also means that people will make hurtful comments. Because as we've established we are humans. And that's what humans do from time to time. No one is nice all the time, and especially in a sea of comments, among a sea of users, you are just going to see a bunch of nasty comments. And some of those comments might be coming from people who thoroughly believe they shouldn't make them.

You can't stop being human from one side and promote the other.

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mr_creeper

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Came here for LULZ, left feeling warm and fuzzy inside... What have you people done?!?

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andrewf87462

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Fantastic panel, really very informative.

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InternetDetective

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god bless pantick kelpik god bless zoey deschan god bless them and love them. gods love is pure. you will all be judged by god. you will be blessed. god bless michael vick. god bless jeremy calrkson. god is good.

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Dots

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I'd bet Scandinavian websites don't deal with that level of vitriol, or Japanese sites.

I'm from Norway and I can tell you that that is absolutely not true. Our sites are filled with as much hate, ignorance, racism and sexism as any other.

I too am one of the silent ones and just like the many others in here I felt the need to post a comment after watching this. I really liked the video and hopefully I will start to submit more comments with praise and/or constructive criticism.

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OreoSpeedwagon

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Wait, so you have encountered problems because you chose to sacrifice your online anonymity, and your solution is for me to give up mine?

The cure sounds worse than the disease. At least you're making money from your decision.

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@asiwassaying:

If you think Internet trolls and toxicity on the internet is only an American thing you have no idea.

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@ett said:

@patrickklepek

Thanks for the random MGS: Ground zeroes spoiler. That was totally great.

Game been out for 27 days guess everyone played.

I'm not someone who really cares about spoilers much but that did kinda come out of left field. I haven't played Ground Zeroes yet so I don't know how much of a spoiler that is but maybe shouldn't have used it in the talk if it a big surprise.

@patrickklepek maybe you want to mention the spoiler in the description. Again, not sure how much of a spoiler it is and you know the context better than I do.

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leem101

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Patrick kicks ass, never knew about the crap he recieved from internet jerks when his dad passed, that is rough stuff

Guess its not a good thing that i'd shout a whole load of hate at those jerks

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Also when Patrick mentioned someone sending a picture with a bonfire and asking if he was burning his father's body kinda sounds like someone who doesn't know English well and was trying to ask if he was cremating his body. He might have been paraphrasing though.

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While I do think people were very mean to her in the past, I can't help but wonder if she would be half as popular or if we'd even care about her if these "jerks" didn't go after her so hard. She sure does wear it on her sleeve and bring it up every chance possible. I think in one regard, what happened to her was what allowed her entrance into the video game industry because it certainly wasn't the game she made.

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Edited By 2HeadedNinja

@matatat said:

@ett said:

@patrickklepek

Thanks for the random MGS: Ground zeroes spoiler. That was totally great.

Game been out for 27 days guess everyone played.

I'm not someone who really cares about spoilers much but that did kinda come out of left field. I haven't played Ground Zeroes yet so I don't know how much of a spoiler that is but maybe shouldn't have used it in the talk if it a big surprise.

@patrickklepek maybe you want to mention the spoiler in the description. Again, not sure how much of a spoiler it is and you know the context better than I do.

I have never played and MGS game and I didn't follow the game at all ... but even I knew about the thing Patrick mentioned for at least 2 weeks.

[edit:] @patrickklepek and Zoe ... to start doing my little part: thanks for the panel, it was really interesting and well done. Keep up the good work.

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jackburtonme

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Great talk! Thanks for this.

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Pepipopa

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Wait, so you have encountered problems because you chose to sacrifice your online anonymity, and your solution is for me to give up mine?

The cure sounds worse than the disease. At least you're making money from your decision.

This is true but i think the idea that " if you're not anonymous you wont say bad things on the internet" Is totally invalid.

I say bad things in real life too. Most people do. Hell I use the same handle almost everywhere. You can find a lot about me if you want to. Disliking someone or not agreeing with somebody doesn't change when Anonymity is removed.

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Mysterysheep

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Great talk, dudes. Patrick and Zoe made some really good points, Zoe especially with her practical advice on how you could approach dealing with this stuff. Patrick did a good job refining his earlier talk and expanding it, as well. His admission of his own mistakes in regards to this stuff was also pretty admirable.

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Edited By AngriGhandi

Great talk!

Amazingly enough, I feel like we're actually getting closer to understanding this problem as more talks like this happen. Zoe's points about depersonalization were especially thought-provoking.

I mean, what if every so often, Twitter popped up a message before you posted saying "hey, remember the person you are about to tweet this to is a real person?"

I feel like such a simple thing would accomplish an almost shocking amount, merely by reminding people of something they already know. Especially if the text was blue.

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customotto

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First of all, if you want to "fight" internet jerks, maybe you shouldn't focus on the jerks themselves and more on your uneducated, frustrated, violent and stressed out American society. I'd bet Scandinavian websites don't deal with that level of vitriol, or Japanese sites.

Also, you should stop pointing fingers at the jerks, or the internet, and maybe start looking yourself in the mirror ask yourselves; why does it stick with me? Maybe because you let them, sure you shouldn't be blamed for being the victim, but why does it hurt you and not Bill Maher? Work on your self-confidence, if you don't do it for yourself, do it for the ones you love. Bullies are cowards and pick on people who don't fight back, if bullies picked on stronger people they would have confronted whoever or whatever made them feel weak about themselves and never became bullies in the first place. Patrick, you'll have to grow up, not the jerks, not the internet, you. If a fat person gets beaten down when someone calls him fat, that person needs to either stop being fat or stop associating "being fat" with shameful. You are not a child in a schoolyard being laughed at and ridiculed by everybody around, you are not scared and helpless juggling suicidal thoughts, you just need to stand straight, look them in the eye and smile.

"you shouldn't blame the victim, but" *goes on to blame every victim ever*

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@thekitkatshuffler: I was always under the impression that Drew replaced him in the "young dude who, in actuality is far older than he looks" position.

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The Giant Bomb and Royal Rumble might be the most entertaining panels, but this was the most interesting!

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While I do think people were very mean to her in the past, I can't help but wonder if she would be half as popular or if we'd even care about her if these "jerks" didn't go after her so hard. She sure does wear it on her sleeve and bring it up every chance possible. I think in one regard, what happened to her was what allowed her entrance into the video game industry because it certainly wasn't the game she made.

I think she would have made it eventually anyway. Patrick was talking about her game before the Greenlight fiasco occured, and she still holds her own with the Bombcrew even when she isn't discussing it. (Examples: her Top 10 Games of 2013 list & her appearance on the GDC post-show.) And if it seems like she wears it on her sleeve, it's because it's specifically brought up either by other people or the topic in-general.

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Scoops and Zoe. I love you both. Great job.

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@scaramoosh: Please tell me this is supposed to be ironic?

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Edited By cabbagesensei
No Caption Provided

Thanks for the great talk Patrick and Zoë. I tend to lurk in most forums and comment sections, but from now on I will try to add positive (though generally not insightful) comments to things I like and call out hurtful interactions from others (hopefully without inciting more).

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Edited By DarkbeatDK

Don't know if anyone else has mentioned it, but if you look at Japanese videos on YouTube, they've often completely blocked comments. Japan has also had some serious issues with bullying between teens, because before we all had Facebook, they all had cellphones and blogs and emails to be jerks to each other on, so now it seems like commenting is filtered out.

It's also ingrained so much in the Japanese culture that you might notice that amateur musicians, dancers and performers often wear masks or disguises, because that way you don't run the risk of getting noticed or approached in public.

It's an interesting solution.

Also, in regard to the comment Zoey displayed that reads "you pussys dont even take heroin", it is something which I believe is a gaff of the "classic" track by Viper called "You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack"

Loading Video...

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Edited By Fink

No, Zoe isn't the greatest public speaker. Get over it. How would you feel if you had to give a talk in front of a crowd that big?

A great quote I've always used when listening to things like this is

"Don't listen to what they are saying. Listen to what they are trying to say."

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Kayrack

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Well Said Both Patrick And Zoe