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Worth Playing: 05/16/2014

Who says we can't dig into a game from two years ago? That doesn't make it any less amazing today.

May. 16 2014

Cast: Patrick

Posted by: Patrick

56 Comments

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kadayi

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Edited By kadayi

However, one pervasive school of thought is that art is what an artist deems to be art (tying back into my point about designers choosing to refer to what they make as games).

You care to cite some pertinent examples of this school of thought? Anyone can produce something and call it Art. Whether others acknowledge it as such is another matter entirely. You don't judge your own work, you are judged by others. This assertion that the creator is the dictator is an act of abdication.

As for "play" and TFOL, I think we've finally arrived at the core of our differing opinions here. I don't think all interaction is play, because there's a mental state associated with play that involves entering into a game mindset (i.e. setting up unnecessary obstacles; "unnecessary" being the operative term here). And it's possible that the context with which one approaches TFOL would lead the interaction to be something other than play, but I definitely played TFOL. I don't think page turning is a game (though you could make it one), nor is it "reading." Likewise, pressing a button isn't play, but pressing a button to move a character forward in a virtual space with the intent of seeing what comes next, figuring out what to do to move things forward, interpreting what just happened as you progress through the next scene is playing.

Then demonstrate the loss.

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Gold_Skulltulla

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@kadayi: Not to spend too much breath on the art thing, but I'll concede to a degree that the idea that certain opinions hold more stock than others and that the two examples I gave come from voices that don't have much experience with the subjects at hand (Ebert was clueless on games, but at least he sparked some healthy self-reflection). However, one pervasive school of thought is that art is what an artist deems to be art (tying back into my point about designers choosing to refer to what they make as games). Not everyone agrees with that, but it's one of several prominent philosophies on the subject. I'm not sure I even agree with it entirely, but that's fine, I'm just trying to point out the fractured foundation of what gets to be called art.

As for "play" and TFOL, I think we've finally arrived at the core of our differing opinions here. I don't think all interaction is play, because there's a mental state associated with play that involves entering into a game mindset (i.e. setting up unnecessary obstacles; "unnecessary" being the operative term here). And it's possible that the context with which one approaches TFOL would lead the interaction to be something other than play, but I definitely played TFOL. I don't think page turning is a game (though you could make it one), nor is it "reading." Likewise, pressing a button isn't play, but pressing a button to move a character forward in a virtual space with the intent of seeing what comes next, figuring out what to do to move things forward, interpreting what just happened as you progress through the next scene is playing.

No doubt, TFOL is a game that stretches the definition of "game." And since it was originally framed as a game by its creator and by its space in a market with other games (I bought it in a Humble Bundle), that's the context in which I interacted with it. It sounds like your TFOL experience was different, but in ways only you would know. I think your case is stronger with Dear Esther, which is a short story told in voiceover with illustrations that you walk through, but even then I'm fine with the game label if that's how the designers want to frame it.

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kadayi

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Edited By kadayi

@gold_skulltulla said:

@kadayi: I have to dispute your claim that art is a well understood concept. The definition you cited is one that we can agree on, but in practice, it's a different story. This is where sentiments like "that's not art, my kid could paint that" and "games can't be art" come from. We agree on a base definition but not a Formalist criteria. And isn't this conversation anecdotal evidence of a similar discrepancy in games?

As someone who actually studied Art & Design I'll refer you back to that quote from Douglas Adams from earlier on: -

All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.

This idea that someone on the street says 'that's not Art' or 'My Kid could do better ' is proffering an opinion of substance is falling into the same trap as before of applying a democracy to opinions. That's not how critical discourse goes, least of all in Art & Design circles.

Frankly the most hilarious thing about the whole 'Can games be Art?' hand wringing was the entire 'Video Games can never be Art' proposition was put forward by a man who in truth lacked any real degree of qualification to comment on it. Roger Ebert was a film critic at the end of the day, not an art critic or artist. People giving credence to his opinion on a subject he possessed little if any real understanding of with reference to a medium that he had zero hands on experience with was complete /facepalm. As a mainstay of film, a medium increasingly under perceived threat from the rise of interactive media as well as the increased sophisitication of Television drama, it's understandable that he'd have some reservations/hostility to it as a whole, but to take his sniping as anything other than an attempt to diminish the new kid on the block is a mistake a great many people made.

If you're an Artist then you're going to elect to use the medium that best suits you with regard to expression, whether that be painting, printmaking, sculpture, sound, writing, photography, film, performance, etc. Certainly some Artists might elect to restrict themselves to a particular medium out of choice, but there's no rules on it. I might not view TFOL or Dear Esther as games, but I'd certainly say that there's a case for each being interactive Art pieces.

@gold_skulltulla said:

@kadayi:

I'm not familiar with Suits, but sounds like he has some interesting ideas. I'd say the obstacle in TFOL is to get to the end of it, but there are plenty of smaller obstacles along the way (follow character up the stairs, speak to characters to learn backstory, etc.), same goes for Kentucky Route Zero. "Unnecessary obstacles" is a great way to describe play, but tying challenge to that is a relative condition. That's why I think of game in terms of goals instead of obstacles; I think they're getting at the same thing, but "obstacles" implies more of a challenge, which I find problematic from a Formalist perspective. Just because a goal is easy, doesn't mean it's not a goal.

I'm curious what you'd call the interaction with TFOL if not play.

Computers are inherently interactive devices so I think it's a bit of a reach to claim that all interaction is 'play'. That you're engaged, doesn't automatically make what you're engaged with 'play'. It's how you're engaged that matters, and the particular qualities of that engagement. Your generalisation falls foul of the very point I made in my earlier post. By your measure, reading an ebook is a game. The intention is to finish the book and every page is an obstacle to doing so. It's an absurdity that simply doesn't hold up to scrutiny when all is said and done.

Given the wholesale dislike people have for 'Press Button A for Awesome' mechanics, and linear experiences. I think it's pretty amusing that some colourful graphics and indie cred is all that's necessary to get people to hail something as a masterpiece tbh.

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Gold_Skulltulla

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Edited By Gold_Skulltulla

@kadayi: I have to dispute your claim that art is a well understood concept. The definition you cited is one that we can agree on, but in practice, it's a different story. This is where sentiments like "that's not art, my kid could paint that" and "games can't be art" come from. We agree on a base definition but not a Formalist criteria. And isn't this conversation anecdotal evidence of a similar discrepancy in games?

I'm not familiar with Suits, but sounds like he has some interesting ideas. I'd say the obstacle in TFOL is to get to the end of it, but there are plenty of smaller obstacles along the way (follow character up the stairs, speak to characters to learn backstory, etc.), same goes for Kentucky Route Zero. "Unnecessary obstacles" is a great way to describe play, but tying challenge to that is a relative condition. That's why I think of game in terms of goals instead of obstacles; I think they're getting at the same thing, but "obstacles" implies more of a challenge, which I find problematic from a Formalist perspective. Just because a goal is easy, doesn't mean it's not a goal.

I'm curious what you'd call the interaction with TFOL if not play.

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kadayi

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Edited By kadayi

@kadayi: I'm not sure a definition that holds up to universal scrutiny is possible for "game" at this point, as with "art." Definitions are social constructs agreed upon by communities that hold power in a given area. Manzoni put his shit in a can and called it art, and though many rejected the notion at first, today it is accepted by the establishment (though not everyone who's told the story will agree). I don't think the wheel is broken to begin with; I think you're trying to put wheels on a boat.

I don't agree that a challenge+fail states+uniqueness of experience makes a game though those are components of many. Play makes a game, and games are structures wherein play occurs. That you play TFOL is what makes it a game. The rest are just variables that are used to distinguish one game from another.

Art is a fairly well understood concept (http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/art is a perfectly adequate definition), so eluding to it as if it's some mysterious esoteric be whatever you want get out of jail free card and the notion of 'game' is some how equally elusive is a fallacy. The idea that 'game' is indefinable is a hangover from Ludwig Wittgenstein's rather antiquated commentary on the subject, however the writer Bernard Suits managed to overturn that common conceit when he summarized it as 'the voluntary attempt to overcome unnecessary obstacles' in his book 'The Grasshopper'. As far as definitions of 'game' go it's a pretty solid one. Which begs the question where are the obstacles in TFOL? You bandy around the word 'play' a lot but in truth 'play' is more than straight interaction. I'm not 'playing' Chrome when I'm opening a new tab, or 'playing' my kindle when I advance a page, so this idea that I'm 'playing' TFOL when I click on an object alone is rather fanciful.

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Gold_Skulltulla

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Edited By Gold_Skulltulla

@kadayi: I'm not sure a definition that holds up to universal scrutiny is possible for "game" at this point, as with "art." Definitions are social constructs agreed upon by communities that hold power in a given area. Manzoni put his shit in a can and called it art, and though many rejected the notion at first, today it is accepted by the establishment (though not everyone who's told the story will agree). I don't think the wheel is broken to begin with; I think you're trying to put wheels on a boat.

I don't agree that a challenge+fail states+uniqueness of experience makes a game though those are components of many. Play makes a game, and games are structures wherein play occurs. That you play TFOL is what makes it a game. The rest are just variables that are used to distinguish one game from another.

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kadayi

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Edited By kadayi

@gold_skulltulla said:

@kadayi: If designers want to start calling what they make "virtual fiction" then I'm all for it, but I feel like that's their decision to make. As is, there's a semantic powerplay at work that places the makers of "virtual fiction" at a distinct disadvantage to things that are called games when it comes to audience recognition and cultural status. It's hard to ignore the out-of-sight-out-of-mind sentiment embedded in the denial of something like TFOL to be called a game.

Maybe we're not going to come to a consensus on this, but I've been thinking a lot about these classifications after seeing Charles Pratt's lecture on Formalism in games (not just video games). He makes the claim that goals don't come out of games, but that they're an expression of player motivation within a structure that sometimes aligns with the prescribed goals a game directs players towards. In essence, games are acts of play (my interpretation).

Not sure where I'm going with this, except that I want these weird not-games around and to be part of the cultural conversation about games, and that calling them "games" is an important part of that.

That the descriptive wheel is presently broken is a poor excuse for not fixing it.

Also how about presenting a cogent argument for why TFOL or Dear Esther should be considered games? I laid out my thoughts on the matter where as you've so far presented nothing substantive with regards to the case (your uncomfortableness is beside the point). Also this the idea that the definition belongs to the author is an amusing one. Tracy Emin could shit in a notebook and submit it to Harper Collins as her first novel, but I doubt they or anyone else would view it as such. It's all very well to posit a rule, but it needs to hold up to universal scrutiny.

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@kadayi: If designers want to start calling what they make "virtual fiction" then I'm all for it, but I feel like that's their decision to make. As is, there's a semantic powerplay at work that places the makers of "virtual fiction" at a distinct disadvantage to things that are called games when it comes to audience recognition and cultural status. It's hard to ignore the out-of-sight-out-of-mind sentiment embedded in the denial of something like TFOL to be called a game.

Maybe we're not going to come to a consensus on this, but I've been thinking a lot about these classifications after seeing Charles Pratt's lecture on Formalism in games (not just video games). He makes the claim that goals don't come out of games, but that they're an expression of player motivation within a structure that sometimes aligns with the prescribed goals a game directs players towards. In essence, games are acts of play (my interpretation).

Not sure where I'm going with this, except that I want these weird not-games around and to be part of the cultural conversation about games, and that calling them "games" is an important part of that.

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Edited By kadayi
@gold_skulltulla said:

@kadayi: I hear you, but I think we have a very limited taxonomy for games, where something is either a game or it's not, and if it's not a game, then what is it? This is often a difficult question to answer and the denial of "game" status is used as a means to exclusion, sentencing so-deemed not-games to fend for themselves outside the walled garden. I'd rather just include things in "games" as they claim to be so.

Computer games is a subset of interactive media. I can recognise TFOL and Dear Esther as the latter, it's just the former category where I think they fall foul due to lack of challenge/fail states or meaningful uniqueness of player experience. For me personally one of the defining aspects of a game as interactive media is the water cooler talk of 'this is how I approached things' Vs others who have also played it and with both TFOL & Dear Esther that gets replaced with 'this is what I think it was about'. It goes from being experiential to interpretative. Now that's not to say that games can't have elements of the latter (Kentucky Route Zero again) but I think it's essential for the experience to contain the former as well (and preferably in abundance), and I'm not sure there's a strong enough argument for that with either of those titles when all is said and done. As to what they are if not games? Virtual fiction springs to mind.

@gold_skulltulla said:

@kadayi:

I think there's room for differing opinions on whether something is a game or not (much like the myriad opinions on something's status as "art"), so long as these games on the fringes are still invited to the table to allow players to decide for themselves.

To quote Douglas Adams: -

All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.

It's a fanciful idea that opinions are a democracy.

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Gold_Skulltulla

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@kadayi: I hear you, but I think we have a very limited taxonomy for games, where something is either a game or it's not, and if it's not a game, then what is it? This is often a difficult question to answer and the denial of "game" status is used as a means to exclusion, sentencing so-deemed not-games to fend for themselves outside the walled garden. I'd rather just include things in "games" as they claim to be so.

I think there's room for differing opinions on whether something is a game or not (much like the myriad opinions on something's status as "art"), so long as these games on the fringes are still invited to the table to allow players to decide for themselves.

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kadayi

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In TFOL's case, the jump cuts bring a specific sensation with them that doesn't translate if you're just watching a video of it. Not saying it's the most revelatory thing, but not grounds to deny it status as a game either.

Just as telephone directory may be considered a book, I think it's fair to say we can discount it from being considered a novel. Sometimes a degree of specificity isn't a bad thing, and I just don't find TFOL passes muster in that regard.

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Gold_Skulltulla

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@kadayi: I'll give you that you can experience most of what these games are by watching someone else play them, but there is something to participating in driving things forward. In TFOL's case, the jump cuts bring a specific sensation with them that doesn't translate if you're just watching a video of it. Not saying it's the most revelatory thing, but not grounds to deny it status as a game either.

Where I think we can agree is that Kentucky Route Zero is pretty incredible though, and fleshes out some of these ideas in a more robust, longform way.

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Homelessbird

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Patrick sure is enthusiastic about Thirty Flights

I think it has some things that are neat about it, but at the end of the day, it's hard for me to ignore that it's so rough around the edges. I mean, yes, it does communicate things without the characters speaking... but that doesn't mean it wouldn't have been more interesting with some actual dialogue.

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Edited By Roland1979

I love almost every game concept and half-decent game. But when it was over i thought their was a error and i must have skipped a huge chunk or something. Nope. If it was a chapter, and bundled with more chapters i could see it's potential. But to me this was a big let down. But i'm glad others enjoyed it, and i didn't pay too much for it.

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Y2Ken

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Thirty Flights is a bizarre and wonderful time.

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kadayi

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The trouble with 30 Flights of Loving is that there's very little to get out of playing it that you can't experience just as well from watching a video. You basically push W for 10 minutes and experience all the content.

^This.

I think it's a clear misnomer to talk about it as a game when it's lacking any degree of system or consequence. Same deal with Dear Esther. Certainly they're virtual experiences made using game engine technology, but they could both just as easily be short films and nothing would really be lost in translation given the very paucity of player agency, and interactivity in both (the very thing that makes gaming as a medium unique ).

I'm all for experimentation, but in truth I think there's a lot more legroom and creativity at work with a title such as Kentucky Route Zero by Cardboard computer, where in they're not only challenging the spatial nature of games and taking their leads from Theatrical design Vs Film, but also really pushing the user relationship with narrative in some quite unique and unexpected directions and genuinely leveraging the richness of interactivity.

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I keep forgetting to play Thirty Flights of Loving. I was told it's pretty short, so well worth a quick play through. Ahh, I'll get around to it eventually...

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bought Thirty Flights of Loving cuz i saw this, it really looks interesting and different

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Ozzie

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idk how I never heard of thirty flights of loving but I'm glad I saw it here, Thanks Patrick!

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Edited By development

No one cares about Flotilla but me.

I was like #13 in the world a few weeks after release. Maybe overall too slow of a game, but I enjoyed my time with it.

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No one cares about Flotilla but me.

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frump

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Circuits seems like the toddler toy where you put the shaped blocks through the shaped holes, except for sounds/music...

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I thought 30 Flights of Loving was an okay Quake mod demo. It had some style, but that's it really. It should have been free. I think it's okay to make games that mostly appeal to people within the gaming industry, and having once been in it, I can appreciate it. But I didn't find much interesting in the game.

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The trouble with 30 Flights of Loving is that there's very little to get out of playing it that you can't experience just as well from watching a video. You basically push W for 10 minutes and experience all the content.

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I enjoyed Thirty Flights of Loving, but it was too expensive for what it offered. If you're making five minute games, they should be priced accordingly.

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Alright, I think I'm sold on 30 Flights. Had to stop halfway through to not spoil it for myself.

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Awesome sound production in that first game! I might have to check it out.

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@bybeach said:

Okay, am going to check out 30 flights of Loving.

Same here! Shame it took this long to get around to it.

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Okay, am going to check out 30 flights of Loving.

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Edited By dudacles

This is great, Patrick! Hope you do plenty more videos like this! :)

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Dreamfall31

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Thanks for this Patrick! I might finally get around to buying Thirty Floors! Heard it was good, but never got it because I thought it was just a Minecraft clone or something.

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I think using worth playing to highlight older stuff that's, you know, worth playing, that people might of missed, is a good idea, especially if you're going to show some iOS stuff. So many games come out on there that it's hard to know what's worth searching for. I'd heard alot about 30 Flights, but never actually seen much of it, so this was great :D

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Edited By AngriGhandi

Personally, I think an even mix of old and new, polished and... "less so" is a good way to go with this feature. It functions as a window into the whole wide world of games! A sense of the aggregated potential of the entire medium, all in one show! Games that are horribly broken! I want it all.

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megasoum

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Hey a video on GB that doesn't have out of sync audio... That's refreshing.

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LegalBagel

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Edited By LegalBagel

I agree with Patrick on TFOL that the use of jump cuts, camera techniques, and nonlinear plotting make it interesting, and other devs should definitely think about adopting ideas like that in pacing through a game. But I wasn't blown away by TFOL itself, even if it was worth it to go through.

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Edited By planetfunksquad

TFOL... I dunno man. I played it a while back and I just don't understand the appeal. I have no issue with its length, or the way it looks, or even the fact that there's no actual "game" in there. I just feel like the story it tells isn't interesting enough. it's an interesting concept, but it lacks an "OH SHIIT" moment that could have made it great.

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Edited By archer88

Glad to see some stuff about Circuits, it looks cool, especially for the price. Also, while I like Blendo's spy stuff, I love his zombie RTS "Atom Zombie Smasher", and I'm especially looking forward to quadrilateral cowboy.

If you like Blendo's games and haven't played Flotilla, you owe it to yourself to correct that mistake.

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Edited By GermanBomber

I'm getting a bit of a Jazzpunk vibe of the first game. I'm trying to remember but I can't think of a game effectively using the jump cut technique before, so that's really cool.

I'm not really digging the other two games but that's the beauty of this feature, I guess. Can't remember the last "episode" where I didn't like at least one game, or saw a game that I thought didn't deserve to be featured.

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rmanthorp  Moderator

Good damn, I love Blendo Games. So hyped for Quadrilateral Cowboy!

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Edited By Stimpack
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@getz: It straddles a fine line. I think if I had had any sort of expectations going into it, I would have been underwhelmed.

I bought it after hearing it was David Jaffe's game of the year.

I HATED it.

Maybe if I had no expectations, I would think it was neat, but...damn. Just damn. I stand on the "fuck that game" side of things. I feel like Jazzpunk was 30 Flights done right.

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@patrickklepek I fully endorse the idea of playing older games here. Gives you more to work with and gives more longevity to games in general, which is still kind of a problem for this medium. A game two weeks old already feels like ancient history, and that's a problem.

Great video this week.

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saddlebrown

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Edited By saddlebrown

I usually don't watch these, but Thirty Flights? Oh yeah, baby. You had my curiosity, Patrick; now you have my attention.

@getz: I think the stuff it does with foregoing the temptation to have a continuous, non-breaking timeline and instead just skips to the relevant bits (like every other form of narrative), the style, the way it non-verbally communicates its vague story (that includes everything you need), and the boldness of creating a game THAT short all add up to make an "amazing" game. I like Gravity Bone more, but regardless, I think both are fantastic and other games should learn a lot from them. Obviously, it's not gonna click for everyone, but I really, really like both.

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robsamuel

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@getz: It straddles a fine line. I think if I had had any sort of expectations going into it, I would have been underwhelmed.

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Jennifyre

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Is there a soundtrack for that circuits game? I love the music.

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Getz

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Edited By Getz

Thirty Flights of Loving is not what I'd call an "amazing" game. It's neat, but ultimately disappointing given the hype surrounding it. Game Journos always seem to overreact when something different comes along.

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Edited By hassun

30 Flights of Lovin'

50 Shades of Klepek

@patrickklepek The audio level between the two parts seems a bit off. The Circuits part is much louder.