Black Templars

#1 Posted by Mercanis (660 posts) -

Minor, minor spoilers ahead.

At the end of the game, why are Black Templars escorting an Inquisitor? Shouldn't they be busy crusading somewhere?

#2 Posted by Sitoxity (551 posts) -

@Mercanis: It was mentioned by the Blood Raven you meet that not only have they joined the reinforcements but some Black Templars did too. I doubt it'd be the whole chapter but the nearest in the sector assisting the final push against Chaos.

#3 Edited by sirean_syan (10 posts) -

Yeah, the Blood Ravens mentioned the Black Templars had come to the aid of the planet as well. They do have wandering crusades, so a group may have been in the area.

Spoilers get a wee bit bigger.

It's strange that they would be willing to accompany the Inquisitor though. Typically, the Black Templars are not willing to work with the In Inquisition as they don't exactly play by the rules Space Marines are supposed to follow and generally view the Inquisition as corrupt. At the same time they absolutely abhor and sort of trickery or witchcraft, so the thought that Space Marine captain could be touched by the warp would probably be enough for them want to take him down. I could also see them happy that an Ultramarine hogging the Inquisitors attention as opposed to the Inquisitor watching them.

#4 Posted by Sitoxity (551 posts) -

@sirean_syan: I could be wrong here, but don't most Space Marine Chapters dislike fighting alongside each other anyway? I have to admit, when it happened in-game it was amazingly cool seeing it, but even as a collector, I never really got the impression big campaigns like that happened anymore. Not since the crusades and formation of the chapters anyway.

Could just be the Blood Angels that tend to act that way though. What with the Black Rage and everything.

#5 Edited by sirean_syan (10 posts) -

I don't think most chapters are against it, although some would definitely have issues depending on who they were working with. For example, Blood Ravens would probably have to be wary of Black Templars as the Blood Ravens supposedly make heavy use of pyskers, something the Black Templar are completely against (to the point of attacking other Imperial forces).

I think what happens more is that chapters only come together occasionally as there are relatively few Space Marines across a huge galaxy. Bunching up leaves other areas undefended and even then many Chapters are spread out from each other. It's a rare enough event to have a Space Marine show up, let allone groups from two chapters. The only reason it doesn't seem that way is because most stories focus on the Space Marines.

#6 Posted by big_jon (5728 posts) -

I was thinking the same thing.

#7 Posted by Afroman269 (7387 posts) -

Ignorant comment: I was expecting an actual black space marine.

Carry on.

#8 Edited by Mercanis (660 posts) -

@Afroman269 said:

Ignorant comment: I was expecting an actual black space marine.

Carry on.

Funny! But now that you mention it, WH4K could really use some ethnic diversity.

#9 Posted by EchoEcho (827 posts) -

@Sitoxity said:

@sirean_syan: I could be wrong here, but don't most Space Marine Chapters dislike fighting alongside each other anyway? I have to admit, when it happened in-game it was amazingly cool seeing it, but even as a collector, I never really got the impression big campaigns like that happened anymore. Not since the crusades and formation of the chapters anyway.

Could just be the Blood Angels that tend to act that way though. What with the Black Rage and everything.

It definitely still happens, especially in larger campaigns. Quite a few Space Marine Chapters fought alongside each other during the various Armageddon conflicts. There was the Badab Uprising incident as well, where groups of Space Marine Chapters formed into two opposing sides.

#10 Posted by oblique_ (52 posts) -

Often only chapters that have something significant to hide from the rest of the imperium will refuse to work with other forces. Some, like the Fleshtearers, have a rough enough reputation that guard forces and other astartes chapters reeeeally don't want to fight alongside them.

In regards to the Black Templars escorting a member of the inquisition: I really feel like Relic broke with the fiction in a significant way on this, though they do have a history of doing so. The reason the Black Templars shy away from the inquisition so much is the fact that they are grossly oversize compared to other chapters. There are in fact rumors that the Templars, by the end of the 41st millennium, are legion sized. If the conservative sector of the inquisition had proof of this then they would have no problem pushing for severe sanctions against the Templars, including prosecuting an armed conflict against them using other chapters. Templars hate warpcraft, but not so much that they would *ever* pal around with an inquisitor like that in order to bring down a possibly corrupted Ultramarine. I'm sure there's some way that Relic could justify this, but I really think that they just didn't think it through and, once again, Alan Merrett, the IP manager for Games Workshop, failed to do his job when it came to a videogame.

#11 Posted by EchoEcho (827 posts) -

@oblique_: While it didn't bother me quite as much, it did strike me as an odd choice, even given my (comparatively) sparse knowledge of WH40k. Wouldn't it have been more appropriate for a squad of Deathwatch marines to be accompanying an Inquisitor of the Ordo Xenos? (Then again, was Thrask Ordo Xenos? I finished the game a couple nights ago and I already forget. Hell, I don't even remember if his name was Thrask or if I pulled that out of my ass.)

Given the other Space Marines on hand, though, and if he couldn't get a squad of Deathwatch or Grey Knights for the apprehension of a single marine, the Black Templar are probably about the only choice left. One has to admit that Thrask would have had a hard time convincing other Ultramarines to come in and apprehend their own Captain, and the Blood Ravens have their own reasons to avoid palling around with Inquisitors, probably even more so than the Black Templars at this point, given that whole "our Chapter Master ascended to demonhood" thing.

#12 Posted by oblique_ (52 posts) -

I'm honestly not sure which ordo Thrax(had to look it up, heh) is from. It's not uncommon for inquisitors to take on tasks that don't match up to their specialization. Typically inquisitors only hand problems off when it's efficient and easy. If it's not they usually just roll up their sleeves and get it done, even if they're more used to fighting cultists than they are orks.

I think that the Ultramarines would honestly have been a better choice. They want to continue looking like they have nothing to hide and will sanction their own if need be, so they're not afraid of weeding out bad elements. The chapter demands purity from all of its members. Not just to maintain their image, but to maintain their honor. Not that they'd just sell Titus out, they'd be very clear about how they expect things to go and would be accompanying the inquisitor every step of the way if at all possible. Part of maintaining their honor would include an expectation of fairness and impartiality.

As for everyone else, the Adeptus Astartes are a completely separate arm of the imperium. They answer to no one but the Emperor. Even the High Lords of Terra have very little power over them. The Blood Ravens and Templars would have both been completely within their rights to tell Thrax to shove off if he asked for their help. There are certainly political realities to take into account when these things happen, though, so astartes chapters will often work with other Imperial entities in order to achieve victory and retain their political clout. It also is nice to have an inquisitor who owes you a favor. That could certainly explain why the Templars helped Thrax out, but it's so unlikely that the scene still bothers me. The Templars are one of those chapters who will gladly bare their teeth at the inquisition to get what they want. It's just very out of character.

I agree though that the Blood Ravens had more to hide. Breaking the rules of the Codex Astartes (granted, REALLY breaking them) isn't necessarily the absolute death sentence that conspiring with warp powers is. I think Space Marine took place long before the events in Retribution, however. Retribution took place in the 'current' 40k I'm fairly certain. I'm pretty sure Space Marine took place at least a couple centuries before it due to Leandros sporting second company markings on his right shoulderpad. The Ultramarines second company is currently led by a rather famous captain named Cato Sicarius, likely heir to the throne of Macragge, not Titus. That's not terribly germane to the conversation though. It just means that the Blood Ravens weren't quite as messed up as they are now.

#13 Posted by EchoEcho (827 posts) -

@oblique_: You're right on all counts. When you put it that way, the Ultramarines are really the obvious choice. I guess Relic just wanted an excuse to show off some Black Templar, since they got name-dropped earlier in the game but never showed up. And I probably should have picked up on the timeline difference, since I knew about the uproar over Titus being the second company's Captain when the spot was already taken. I really don't know how that got by me.

As Vinny said in a Bombcast a few weeks ago, "I know just enough about the WH40k universe to get myself in trouble." I've only read the Eisenhorn Omnibus and I'm halfway through Horus Rising (though I haven't picked it up in months -- I moved and have yet to unpack most of my things); aside from that, all my knowledge comes from the Dawn of War games and reading things such as Lexicanum.com.

#14 Posted by oblique_ (52 posts) -

I've got a bookcase full of 40k/WHFB gaming books from 2nd edition onward. And I've read 97 novels. Don't become me!!

#15 Posted by Veektarius (4836 posts) -

@oblique_: I'm pretty sure he was Ordo Hereticus from the way he was speaking.

#16 Posted by oblique_ (52 posts) -

@Veektarius:

Could be, but inquisitors usually will look into things that are a bit outside their wheelhouse. Inquisitorial ordos are more like gentleman's clubs than they are strict organizations. Look at Gregor Eisenhorn, from the Dan Abnett novels, for example. Nominally a member of the Ordo Xenos but he spent quite a lot of his career dealing with heretics and daemons as well. They just take care of really pressing business when they see it, regardless of specialization. Inquisitors tend to be the kind of people who only trust themselves to get things done.

Ultimately that's kind of a fine detail as far as 40k fluff goes and I doubt Relic's interested in exploring it, so you're probably right!

#17 Posted by Commisar123 (1792 posts) -

@oblique_ said:

I've got a bookcase full of 40k/WHFB gaming books from 2nd edition onward. And I've read 97 novels. Don't become me!!

hello twin

#18 Posted by TekZero (2672 posts) -

Fuck yeah, I'm so getting this game.

#19 Posted by oblique_ (52 posts) -

@Commisar123: It's good to know I'm not alone.

#20 Posted by soapcell (24 posts) -

@Mercanis: There's an entire first founding Space Marine chapter filled with black-skinned people called the Salamanders. Besides that, the others I know are that one Inquisitor in Dawn of War and the Librarian Jonah Orion in Dawn of War II: Chaos Rising

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