After some pretty nasty server issues, WarZ style marketing (read: outright lying about your product) and just a day after release too. Played about an hour of it. It's pretty clunky. None of the perma death stuff they intrigued me with is actually true, and there's less character customization than WoW. The good? It's free.
edit/update: Apparently the developers pulled it themselves, not Steam.
I watched Kevin Vanord play for a while on Twitch and got immediately turned off. The "it's free to play" -angle just doesn't sell it anymore. You can find better free to play MMO without even looking that hard.
I've played many terrible free-to-play mmo's, but this is the first one that felt like it's trying to be bad. You have to roll for character stats with the higher stat amounts exceedingly rare? What does that even accomplish!?
I've played many terrible free-to-play mmo's, but this is the first one that felt like it's trying to be bad. You have to roll for character stats with the higher stat amounts exceedingly rare? What does that even accomplish!?
I've played many terrible free-to-play mmo's, but this is the first one that felt like it's trying to be bad. You have to roll for character stats with the higher stat amounts exceedingly rare? What does that even accomplish!?
I've played many terrible free-to-play mmo's, but this is the first one that felt like it's trying to be bad. You have to roll for character stats with the higher stat amounts exceedingly rare? What does that even accomplish!?
RPGs used to do that all the time.
And it doesn't really fit in an MMO I feel.
I agree. I actually think it's a bad idea regardless of genre. Levio just sounded like he'd never seen it before so I figured I'd point out that it wasn't a new bad idea, it's an old bad idea that most developers have moved past.
I've played many terrible free-to-play mmo's, but this is the first one that felt like it's trying to be bad. You have to roll for character stats with the higher stat amounts exceedingly rare? What does that even accomplish!?
RPGs used to do that all the time.
And it doesn't really fit in an MMO I feel.
Yeah, there's a time and place for strict tabletop rules. An MMO is certainly not one of them. I tried downloading this last night, but it kept looping back to the community page instead of downloading the game. I guess I'm glad, since the "Wizardry" part of this game looks to be the part that it's in a dungeon?
I remember getting one of the Wizardry titles for PS2 from a rental store way back when because I enjoyed the cover art so much. I spent an inordinate amount of time barely playing it. I was so confused by the presentation; static character portraits and animationless first person, that it threw me for one hell of a loop. Ever since then though the Wizardry name has stuck with me and I've always wanted to get into that world a little deeper. I hadn't even heard of this when the steam page launched. I should have taken that as a bad sign, all in all I'm kind of glad I can still get excited about the idea of a game so easily. I hope SOE manage to figure it out and get the title where it can actually stand on it's own.
Edit: This is the aforementioned cover art. I think I'm going to ebay myself a copy of this thing.
Wow, that was pretty surprising. I never read what they said on the Steam page, anybody have a copy of that? I played it during the beta, and I thought the game felt pretty weird and un-Wizardry-like, and the microtransactions rubbed me the wrong way, as they sold revival potions for money, defeating the whole idea of permadeath, but I heard they had removed that for the actual launch, so that point of criticism probably wasn't valid anymore. I didn't think it was bad though, just odd in almost every way, but still somewhat fascinating.
It would be interesting to know on what specific grounds it was removed from Steam.
I remember getting one of the Wizardry titles for PS2 from a rental store way back when because I enjoyed the cover art so much. I spent an inordinate amount of time barely playing it. I was so confused by the presentation; static character portraits and animationless first person, that it threw me for one hell of a loop. Ever since then though the Wizardry name has stuck with me and I've always wanted to get into that world a little deeper. I hadn't even heard of this when the steam page launched. I should have taken that as a bad sign, all in all I'm kind of glad I can still get excited about the idea of a game so easily. I hope SOE manage to figure it out and get the title where it can actually stand on it's own.
Edit: This is the aforementioned cover art. I think I'm going to ebay myself a copy of this thing.
One odd thing about the Japanese Wizardry games is that they're stuck remaking Wizardry 1-4 over and over, when I think Wizardry 6-8 refined the gameplay and created a fascinating coherent universe. Tales of the Forsaken land is the only one of the Japanese games that actually expands the gameplay a little above that of the first 4 games, but does so very sparingly. The most recent, Wizardry: Labyrinth of Lost Souls on PS3 (made by the Wizardry Online developers if I recall) sticks a bit too close to the gameplay of the early 1980's games.
@fisk0: I agree completely about the competent but weirdly reactionary Japanese Wizardry games. Wizardry VII and 8 in particular are ground-breaking RPGs, and seeing as the "Dark Savant trilogy" has far more in common with modern open world singleplayer RPGs than the earlier 1980s classics it's a bit surprising that the Eastern fanbase has stuck so closely to the original formula. I realize that Dragon Quest-like dungeon hacks are still popular in Japan, but it's not like the Japanese gamers dislike sprawling epics with (even) more complex character development systems. Presumably economical factors play a large part here, as dungeon crawlers must be relatively cheap to produce.
And in regards to Wizardry Online, I was definitely annoyed by yesterday's connection issues since I really wanted to give the game a chance now that it was conveniently available through Steam and all...
I've played many terrible free-to-play mmo's, but this is the first one that felt like it's trying to be bad. You have to roll for character stats with the higher stat amounts exceedingly rare? What does that even accomplish!?
RPGs used to do that all the time.
More context: In this game you can reroll stats immediately, but it takes about 6-7 seconds to gain new stats, and the probability of them being on the low end is very high. So unlike D&D setups where you roll once and stick with it, here you have to roll until you get the numbers you want, which is apparently like winning the lottery.
@fisk0: @Egge: The main reason why Japan keeps recreating those games is because, as a culture, the first few Wizardry games where what defined RPG for them. Us, in the west, have our RPG roots in tabletop RPG's, with the Wizardry style games trying, in a basic way, to mimic that experience. It's a weird cultural disconnect.
I'm not surprised by this at all. I got into the closed Beta for this and it was AWFUL. It's damn obvious that the developer both had no idea how to build a modern MMO, and they also had no idea the legacy they had on their hands.
I've played many terrible free-to-play mmo's, but this is the first one that felt like it's trying to be bad. You have to roll for character stats with the higher stat amounts exceedingly rare? What does that even accomplish!?
RPGs used to do that all the time.
More context: In this game you can reroll stats immediately, but it takes about 6-7 seconds to gain new stats, and the probability of them being on the low end is very high. So unlike D&D setups where you roll once and stick with it, here you have to roll until you get the numbers you want, which is apparently like winning the lottery.
Do those high stats also make you level up slower? I know they did in Wizardry Labyrinth of Lost Souls. Getting high stats out the gate was a good way to get an improved class but would hurt you in the end by having a character with very low hp.
@fisk0: the GB page says Wizardry online was developed by Pottsware but Labyrinth of the Lost Souls was developed by Aquire.
I'm sort of surprised they took it down already for server issues, good thing Diablo 3 didn't launch on steam heh. I only had to wait about 5 mins at login to get into the game. I played about an hour of it, I didn't really enjoy it but it didn't seem to be broken to the point that it should be removed. I already decided I'm not into the game so I don't care either way but it does seem a little hasty to me.
The dice rolling completely fits the game, the game is a continuation of a VERY long running series obviously entitled Wizardry.
Permadeath is very cruel. Sure you may not permanently die till later levels.. when you have SO much more to actually lose.
The puzzles in each dungeon can be quite difficult to do, ranging from fairly simple in the early dungeons, to very complex ones that may take hours at end to solve. While your solving these, there's a feeling of imminent doom from all the other players that could possibly kill you, or the wicked OD powered mobs, or traps. I know this cause I've played CBT and OBT now. I've also played 95% of MMO's listed on OnRPG, so I know what I'm talking about when I say this game is fairly good and not absolute shit.
Sure the servers are a bit unstable, you know why? It's cause so many people want to play and enjoy this game. It's free to play, and they have yet to make a single dollar from the game yet, so if you were expecting more on launch, you obviously have a lot to learn.
Learn to play a game for more than an hour, otherwise even the most decent games will be trash to you.
Steam removed it because of massive whiners such as you peeps (not all of you ofcourse)
The dice rolling completely fits the game, the game is a continuation of a VERY long running series obviously entitled Wizardry.
Permadeath is very cruel. Sure you may not permanently die till later levels.. when you have SO much more to actually lose.
The puzzles in each dungeon can be quite difficult to do, ranging from fairly simple in the early dungeons, to very complex ones that may take hours at end to solve. While your solving these, there's a feeling of imminent doom from all the other players that could possibly kill you, or the wicked OD powered mobs, or traps. I know this cause I've played CBT and OBT now. I've also played 95% of MMO's listed on OnRPG, so I know what I'm talking about when I say this game is fairly good and not absolute shit.
Sure the servers are a bit unstable, you know why? It's cause so many people want to play and enjoy this game. It's free to play, and they have yet to make a single dollar from the game yet, so if you were expecting more on launch, you obviously have a lot to learn.
Learn to play a game for more than an hour, otherwise even the most decent games will be trash to you.
Steam removed it because of massive whiners such as you peeps (not all of you ofcourse)
No need to be a jerk.
And the fact that a game didn't hook me in the first hour is their shortcoming, not mine. And yes, I DO expect a game to be good at launch. To think otherwise is just silly.
I'm happy for you that you're enjoying it, despite it's shortcomings. But don't get on my case because I'm not. The main reason I made this thread was to let people know that it magically vanished from steam, and to speculate why.
I felt oddly hooked to the game for a few hours in the closed beta simply because it was a very strange game. It is far from "AAA" quality but I really do hope it finds a niche. The part that turned me off was seeing things in the cash shop that increase the chance to not be perma-killed by like 10% or things to buy to apply to individual items so that other players (or monsters) could not steal those specific items upon your death. That stuff is really lame to put in a cash shop.
As far as the thing being pulled from Steam, it just seems like normal MMO launch issues. Give it a few days. As always, it is silly that we have to put up with MMOs having launch issues almost every time one comes out, but this is a lower budget one (even though it is coming out through SOE).
Well, glad to know Steam are at least diligent when it comes to quality control. I'd be interested to see just how broken the game was though.
If they were that diligent it wouldn't have got on Steam in the first place. Same with WarZ. It's really bad form that these games are getting on the service.
I felt oddly hooked to the game for a few hours in the closed beta simply because it was a very strange game. It is far from "AAA" quality but I really do hope it finds a niche. The part that turned me off was seeing things in the cash shop that increase the chance to not be perma-killed by like 10% or things to buy to apply to individual items so that other players (or monsters) could not steal those specific items upon your death. That stuff is really lame to put in a cash shop.
As far as the thing being pulled from Steam, it just seems like normal MMO launch issues. Give it a few days. As always, it is silly that we have to put up with MMOs having launch issues almost every time one comes out, but this is a lower budget one (even though it is coming out through SOE).
That was my feeling too, so much of the game was weird in a very intriguing way, but the cash shop stuff (which seems like they weren't as bad after release as they were during the beta) turned me off a bit. More than a Wizardry game it seemed like a low budget MMO version of Dark Souls though. And, sure, everything gets compared to Dark Souls (or roguelikes!) these days, but I really got that vibe from it.
I felt oddly hooked to the game for a few hours in the closed beta simply because it was a very strange game. It is far from "AAA" quality but I really do hope it finds a niche. The part that turned me off was seeing things in the cash shop that increase the chance to not be perma-killed by like 10% or things to buy to apply to individual items so that other players (or monsters) could not steal those specific items upon your death. That stuff is really lame to put in a cash shop.
As far as the thing being pulled from Steam, it just seems like normal MMO launch issues. Give it a few days. As always, it is silly that we have to put up with MMOs having launch issues almost every time one comes out, but this is a lower budget one (even though it is coming out through SOE).
I was fairly hooked too for the amount of time I spent with the game (an hour before a random disconnect). I was rather frustrated with the launch issues, but from what I've played, it's not that bad.
Well, glad to know Steam are at least diligent when it comes to quality control. I'd be interested to see just how broken the game was though.
If they were that diligent it wouldn't have got on Steam in the first place. Same with WarZ. It's really bad form that these games are getting on the service.
I think that we may have to accept that this is the trade-off for having certification processes that are less hampering to the developer.
Well, glad to know Steam are at least diligent when it comes to quality control. I'd be interested to see just how broken the game was though.
If they were that diligent it wouldn't have got on Steam in the first place. Same with WarZ. It's really bad form that these games are getting on the service.
Agreed. Sad part is, there are still plenty of games that have been on the service for years and, as far as I know, still have huge problems. Vampire TMB is the first big one that comes to mind. I'm pretty sure it's easier to recode the game yourself than to get it to run at this point lol. Dark Messiah is another one. That game has some serious memory leak issues for a lot of people, but the developer (or publisher or somebody) stopped supporting it so the issues were never resolved. It is good to see Steam stepping it up in the QA area, but they should have never been released on the service in the first place in my honest opinion.
I noticed that it was missing earlier today. Really funny because I checked in one day it was here and the next it was gone. I thought it might be interesting too if for nothing else besides WIZARDRY was stamped on it.
Well, glad to know Steam are at least diligent when it comes to quality control. I'd be interested to see just how broken the game was though.
If they were that diligent it wouldn't have got on Steam in the first place. Same with WarZ. It's really bad form that these games are getting on the service.
I think that we may have to accept that this is the trade-off for having certification processes that are less hampering to the developer.
Steam are mighty and cool and all, but they don't know the future. They can't disallow games to be put up on their release date based on the assumption that something might not go well. I don't think Gamestop or any other game-selling service would, or should do this, either.
Well, glad to know Steam are at least diligent when it comes to quality control. I'd be interested to see just how broken the game was though.
If they were that diligent it wouldn't have got on Steam in the first place. Same with WarZ. It's really bad form that these games are getting on the service.
I think that we may have to accept that this is the trade-off for having certification processes that are less hampering to the developer.
Steam are mighty and cool and all, but they don't know the future. They can't disallow games to be put up on their release date based on the assumption that something might not go well.
I tried to play the tutorial dungeon this morning, and got disconnected while in the middle of a cutscene. I hope this doesn't mean I have to do the other tutorial missions over again when I try to reconnect...
Well, glad to know Steam are at least diligent when it comes to quality control. I'd be interested to see just how broken the game was though.
If they were that diligent it wouldn't have got on Steam in the first place. Same with WarZ. It's really bad form that these games are getting on the service.
I think that we may have to accept that this is the trade-off for having certification processes that are less hampering to the developer.
Steam are mighty and cool and all, but they don't know the future. They can't disallow games to be put up on their release date based on the assumption that something might not go well. I don't think Gamestop or any other game-selling service would, or should do this, either.
They certainly can't predict things like server troubles. But they can do research on the claims made in the marketing of the game and check that they aren't actively lying about their product.
Well, glad to know Steam are at least diligent when it comes to quality control. I'd be interested to see just how broken the game was though.
If they were that diligent it wouldn't have got on Steam in the first place. Same with WarZ. It's really bad form that these games are getting on the service.
I think that we may have to accept that this is the trade-off for having certification processes that are less hampering to the developer.
Steam are mighty and cool and all, but they don't know the future. They can't disallow games to be put up on their release date based on the assumption that something might not go well. I don't think Gamestop or any other game-selling service would, or should do this, either.
They certainly can't predict things like server troubles. But they can do research on the claims made in the marketing of the game and check that they aren't actively lying about their product.
It'd be nice if the publisher had insight and knew what games to trust, but in some cases they learn the same way we do. Just look at AC2's launch on the PC; the licensing servers being down rendering the game unplayable for huge stretches of time. I don't think investigation could've predicted it, even though hackers were rattling their swords at Ubisoft before launch. In my case Steam has been nice about refunding when things go bad, if nothing else.
I tried to play the tutorial dungeon this morning, and got disconnected while in the middle of a cutscene. I hope this doesn't mean I have to do the other tutorial missions over again when I try to reconnect...
Right now, the lag is making the game harder to play than when I tunneled my connection to Japan two years ago. That's probably bad. I get that they're working on it, but these days, you REALLY need to nail a MMO's launch before you're pretty much just doing damage control forever. It's even more true for niche ones.
I still think it's a pretty interesting game, you know, for being a third-person action MMO based on the Japanese interpretation of a 30 year old D&D dungeon crawler series that was a total dick.
For anybody who's potentially interested but turned off by some of the mechanics:
Bonus stats don't matter a whole lot beyond the first dungeons because your stats will eventually normalize out (they can go up or down, remember). As for permadeath and PvP, they don't even activate until you clear the first dungeon and hit Soul Rank 2, and losing a character still only happens if you get really, really unlucky. IF you happen to lose a character, you lose everything on their person, but keep everything in your shared storage. As your Soul Rank goes up, you start gaining access to more and more stuff, like stat bonuses and faster EXP gain and class changes. Also, you only ever have to do dungeon puzzles and storyline quests once before they unlock for every character on that server (of which there are only two, US and EU).
I still wouldn't recommend playing for a week or so until they fix the lag.
@fisk0: I agree completely about the competent but weirdly reactionary Japanese Wizardry games. Wizardry VII and 8 in particular are ground-breaking RPGs, and seeing as the "Dark Savant trilogy" has far more in common with modern open world singleplayer RPGs than the earlier 1980s classics it's a bit surprising that the Eastern fanbase has stuck so closely to the original formula. I realize that Dragon Quest-like dungeon hacks are still popular in Japan, but it's not like the Japanese gamers dislike sprawling epics with (even) more complex character development systems. Presumably economical factors play a large part here, as dungeon crawlers must be relatively cheap to produce.
And in regards to Wizardry Online, I was definitely annoyed by yesterday's connection issues since I really wanted to give the game a chance now that it was conveniently available through Steam and all...
It's also worth noting that at the same time Wizardry IV came out in 1987, Wizardry-inspired games like Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy had both become established as new, but very popular franchises in the JRPG market. Over here in North America, both series remained rather niche, with Final Fantasy not getting a particularly wide western audience until Final Fantasy VII. By that point, Final Fantasy had evolved into its own thing, and the Wizardry inspirations became less and less evident. Even in Dragon Quest, which has remained very steadfast in its ways, has evolved not necessarily its gameplay, but the nature of its storytelling. Even in terms of basic structure, the narratives of each entry is very different, whether it be Dragon Quest III's focus on a player-created party, Dragon Quest IV's multiple chapters and multiple protagonists, or Dragon Quest V's romance and multigenerational story.
At the same time, other games that came along and started in that same dungeon-crawler vein like the original Megami Tensei gave way to more open, more complex and varied worlds, narratives and systems as seen in games like Shin Megami Tensei, the Persona series, or the Devil Summoner series. Yet, there's still an audience for those old-school, early Wizardry dungeon crawlers, which is why Atlus continues to produce the Etrian Odyssey games; games that fully embrace their old-school roots while modernizing key aspects.
@Hailinel Interesting — I had little idea Wizardry was that influential.
In truth, Wizardy and the early Ultima games both played a role in influencing the early JRPG market. Heck, there were NES versions of games from both franchises. But while Wizardy and Ultima also influenced western RPG design, very different schools of thought developed as the genre broke away from those roots.
The dice rolling completely fits the game, the game is a continuation of a VERY long running series obviously entitled Wizardry.
Permadeath is very cruel. Sure you may not permanently die till later levels.. when you have SO much more to actually lose.
The puzzles in each dungeon can be quite difficult to do, ranging from fairly simple in the early dungeons, to very complex ones that may take hours at end to solve. While your solving these, there's a feeling of imminent doom from all the other players that could possibly kill you, or the wicked OD powered mobs, or traps. I know this cause I've played CBT and OBT now. I've also played 95% of MMO's listed on OnRPG, so I know what I'm talking about when I say this game is fairly good and not absolute shit.
Sure the servers are a bit unstable, you know why? It's cause so many people want to play and enjoy this game. It's free to play, and they have yet to make a single dollar from the game yet, so if you were expecting more on launch, you obviously have a lot to learn.
Learn to play a game for more than an hour, otherwise even the most decent games will be trash to you.
Steam removed it because of massive whiners such as you peeps (not all of you ofcourse)
No need to be a jerk.
And the fact that a game didn't hook me in the first hour is their shortcoming, not mine. And yes, I DO expect a game to be good at launch. To think otherwise is just silly.
I'm happy for you that you're enjoying it, despite it's shortcomings. But don't get on my case because I'm not. The main reason I made this thread was to let people know that it magically vanished from steam, and to speculate why.
I've played many terrible free-to-play mmo's, but this is the first one that felt like it's trying to be bad. You have to roll for character stats with the higher stat amounts exceedingly rare? What does that even accomplish!?
RPGs used to do that all the time.
And it doesn't really fit in an MMO I feel.
Yeah, there's a time and place for strict tabletop rules. An MMO is certainly not one of them. I tried downloading this last night, but it kept looping back to the community page instead of downloading the game. I guess I'm glad, since the "Wizardry" part of this game looks to be the part that it's in a dungeon?
Yay...
Rolling poorly in a tabletop game is funny since it's just you and your friends, you get to create some terrible piece of shit and it turns into a running gag until you meet your horrible death.
Haven't tried this out yet, but from the screenshots (which, as usual, included not a single screenshot of how the game is played!), it was pretty clear it wasn't cool. :(
The dice rolling completely fits the game, the game is a continuation of a VERY long running series obviously entitled Wizardry.
Permadeath is very cruel. Sure you may not permanently die till later levels.. when you have SO much more to actually lose.
The puzzles in each dungeon can be quite difficult to do, ranging from fairly simple in the early dungeons, to very complex ones that may take hours at end to solve. While your solving these, there's a feeling of imminent doom from all the other players that could possibly kill you, or the wicked OD powered mobs, or traps. I know this cause I've played CBT and OBT now. I've also played 95% of MMO's listed on OnRPG, so I know what I'm talking about when I say this game is fairly good and not absolute shit.
Sure the servers are a bit unstable, you know why? It's cause so many people want to play and enjoy this game. It's free to play, and they have yet to make a single dollar from the game yet, so if you were expecting more on launch, you obviously have a lot to learn.
Learn to play a game for more than an hour, otherwise even the most decent games will be trash to you.
Steam removed it because of massive whiners such as you peeps (not all of you ofcourse)
No need to be a jerk.
And the fact that a game didn't hook me in the first hour is their shortcoming, not mine. And yes, I DO expect a game to be good at launch. To think otherwise is just silly.
I'm happy for you that you're enjoying it, despite it's shortcomings. But don't get on my case because I'm not. The main reason I made this thread was to let people know that it magically vanished from steam, and to speculate why.
There is no such thing as a good MMO launch.
There is. It's rare, but it happens. City of Heroes. Everquest 2. Guild Wars. All good launches.
The dice rolling completely fits the game, the game is a continuation of a VERY long running series obviously entitled Wizardry.
Permadeath is very cruel. Sure you may not permanently die till later levels.. when you have SO much more to actually lose.
The puzzles in each dungeon can be quite difficult to do, ranging from fairly simple in the early dungeons, to very complex ones that may take hours at end to solve. While your solving these, there's a feeling of imminent doom from all the other players that could possibly kill you, or the wicked OD powered mobs, or traps. I know this cause I've played CBT and OBT now. I've also played 95% of MMO's listed on OnRPG, so I know what I'm talking about when I say this game is fairly good and not absolute shit.
Sure the servers are a bit unstable, you know why? It's cause so many people want to play and enjoy this game. It's free to play, and they have yet to make a single dollar from the game yet, so if you were expecting more on launch, you obviously have a lot to learn.
Learn to play a game for more than an hour, otherwise even the most decent games will be trash to you.
Steam removed it because of massive whiners such as you peeps (not all of you ofcourse)
No need to be a jerk.
And the fact that a game didn't hook me in the first hour is their shortcoming, not mine. And yes, I DO expect a game to be good at launch. To think otherwise is just silly.
I'm happy for you that you're enjoying it, despite it's shortcomings. But don't get on my case because I'm not. The main reason I made this thread was to let people know that it magically vanished from steam, and to speculate why.
There is no such thing as a good MMO launch.
There is. It's rare, but it happens. City of Heroes. Everquest 2. Guild Wars. All good launches.
For every relatively smooth launch of a game like EverQuest 2, there are about thirty Final Fantasy XIVs.
I tried to play the tutorial dungeon this morning, and got disconnected while in the middle of a cutscene. I hope this doesn't mean I have to do the other tutorial missions over again when I try to reconnect...
Right now, the lag is making the game harder to play than when I tunneled my connection to Japan two years ago. That's probably bad. I get that they're working on it, but these days, you REALLY need to nail a MMO's launch before you're pretty much just doing damage control forever. It's even more true for niche ones.
I'm not entirely sure who should be more responsible here. Which company handles the US Wizardry servers? Is it SOE, or Gamepot?
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