You Must Agree to All of Xbox Live's New Terms of Service

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Posted by patrickklepek (3981 posts) -
Phoenix Wright cannot help you here, so long as you agree to the updated Terms of Service.

Microsoft rolled out an updated Terms of Service alongside the updated Xbox 360 dashboard this week, and yesterday I reported how Microsoft was falling in line with companies like Sony and Electronic Arts in asking consumers to give up their right to participate in class action lawsuits.

I also reported that Microsoft would follow in Sony and Electronic Arts’ footsteps and allow users to send a letter into Microsoft’s legal department and maintain those rights.

Sure, it’s an annoying task, but at least it’s an option.

Turns out that option doesn’t exist, according to a statement released to Kotaku. Users must agree to the new Terms of Service, and the ability to opt-out only relates future Terms of Service agreements.

That's a huge difference.

“Users must agree to the new clause to the Terms of Use in order to continue using Xbox LIVE,” said the company. “Changes to the Terms of Use are designed to ensure that our customers have an easy way to file a dispute without requiring formal legal action.”

Not interpreting the legal jargon correctly is my fault, and so I apologize for that. But this makes the change more egregious, as Microsoft is leveraging a desired consumer device that consumers have both emotionally and financially invested in to gain legal leverage as a corporation. It’s their right to demand this from consumers, and the right of consumers to say “no, I’ll just stop using your product,” but we all know that the desire to continue playing games will stop most from ever exercising that.

Bummer.

Staff
#1 Posted by patrickklepek (3981 posts) -
Phoenix Wright cannot help you here, so long as you agree to the updated Terms of Service.

Microsoft rolled out an updated Terms of Service alongside the updated Xbox 360 dashboard this week, and yesterday I reported how Microsoft was falling in line with companies like Sony and Electronic Arts in asking consumers to give up their right to participate in class action lawsuits.

I also reported that Microsoft would follow in Sony and Electronic Arts’ footsteps and allow users to send a letter into Microsoft’s legal department and maintain those rights.

Sure, it’s an annoying task, but at least it’s an option.

Turns out that option doesn’t exist, according to a statement released to Kotaku. Users must agree to the new Terms of Service, and the ability to opt-out only relates future Terms of Service agreements.

That's a huge difference.

“Users must agree to the new clause to the Terms of Use in order to continue using Xbox LIVE,” said the company. “Changes to the Terms of Use are designed to ensure that our customers have an easy way to file a dispute without requiring formal legal action.”

Not interpreting the legal jargon correctly is my fault, and so I apologize for that. But this makes the change more egregious, as Microsoft is leveraging a desired consumer device that consumers have both emotionally and financially invested in to gain legal leverage as a corporation. It’s their right to demand this from consumers, and the right of consumers to say “no, I’ll just stop using your product,” but we all know that the desire to continue playing games will stop most from ever exercising that.

Bummer.

Staff
#2 Posted by Generic_Ninja (129 posts) -

Dude what?

#3 Posted by Kerned (1170 posts) -

Typical shady MS BS, but hardly surprising.

#4 Posted by Daveyo520 (6677 posts) -

I don't care, I will never be part od a class action lawsuit against them anyway.

#5 Posted by drewm135 (215 posts) -

Wow

#6 Posted by mak_wikus (511 posts) -

Wow, consumer rights in the US are SHIT.

#7 Posted by pw2566ch (480 posts) -

@Daveyo520 said:

I don't care, I will never be part od a class action lawsuit against them anyway.

You say that now.

#8 Posted by clumsyninja1 (817 posts) -

Do people really think that suing Microsoft is gonna get them any kind of revenue??? THAT's funny

#9 Posted by nintendoeats (5975 posts) -

Well fuck. This is particularly annoying given that I am one of a very few people who have never agreed to the PSN ToS (as in I have a PS3 but never applied the update that required me to sign that ToS). It would have worked really well for me if this had gone the other way.

I really REALLY hate the world that we live in, and I wish that other people would take things like this more seriously. I can't defend my rights on my own, and I don't understand why so few people have any interest in defending theirs.

Yes, I take things seriously. If you find that absurd then you are part of the problem. Sorry.

#10 Posted by RoninAutomaton (19 posts) -

Well, poop.

#11 Posted by KillyDarko (1888 posts) -

It's at times like this that I'm the happiest at being mostly an indie PC gamer ^^

#12 Posted by Mcfart (1598 posts) -

@Daveyo520 said:

I don't care, I will never be part od a class action lawsuit against them anyway.

It's not about wheather you will or not. But your rights yo are giving up just to play games online.

What if tomarrow they changed the TOS requireing you to be a Nun to continue using Xbox Live?

#13 Edited by Ehker (235 posts) -

Today's terms: No opt out now, but on future changes you can totally opt out.

Tomorrow's terms: We no longer allow opt outs.

I see no point in a promise by terms that are constantly changing.

#14 Posted by alternate (2693 posts) -

Never thought I would be thankful for EU law.

Online
#15 Posted by TheMartino (136 posts) -

A service you pay for telling you in what ways you can use its service?! Inconceivable!

#16 Posted by Napalm (9020 posts) -

How long until Microsoft forces users into a Terms Of Service where they can monetize a users private information to undisclosed third parties? It all starts here folks; please pay attention.

#17 Posted by lockwoodx (2479 posts) -

and this is why I don't support Microsoft or Sony.

#18 Posted by VilhelmNielsen (1734 posts) -

Remember how Microsoft fucking sucks, and have been sucking for decades? Well, here's a reminder!

#19 Posted by 014 (350 posts) -
@Daveyo520 said:

I don't care, I will never be part od a class action lawsuit against them anyway.

That may be true now. But you do know you can be a part of class action law suits without actually doing anything, right? I have been in multiple without ever going to court or talking to legal people. I never even filed a complaint. I just happened to be a customer or employee of companies at the wrong time. One example is I'm getting money from my employer because of a class action law suit that I didn't even know was going on until it was settled. I am a part of that class and am getting a fat check soon. I was given the decision one day to take the check or donate it to charity. Again, I never filed a complaint.  
 
Another example is from me buying a motorcycle from a shady dealer. He sold motorcycles by consignment but was really bad at paying the original owner + doing title transfers. That got him into trouble. I got a check from a law suit that I had no involvement with in court or paperwork. It was fair I received a check because it paid for only a portion of the extra fees I had to pay out of pocket to get a temporary title for my motorcycle. All this happened without me filing a legal complaint. Someone else did and included me in the class.
 
We want the right to class action law suits.
#20 Edited by mnzy (2914 posts) -

Distant laughter in the air. Foreign. European judges reading these ToS.

#21 Posted by ValiantGoat (376 posts) -

Some people get too worked up about this shit, granted it is a legitimate issue/concern.What people don't seem to get is that if your console explodes, burns your house down, and/or rapes your parent(s) you can still take legal action. Really these types of user agreements don't count for shit in court.

If you have a legitimate reason to take legal actions against these companys you are still in your right to do so. Largely these agreements are there to squash hokie class action suites that some shifty lawyer somewhere dreams up and somehow finds a bunch of people to hop on board.

If the legal system wasn't abused so badly with BS law suites we might never have gotten to this point. It sucks on principle, but in practise isn't the evil money making company conspiracy some people make it out to be.

Note: I really do enjoy these types of news posts, being informed is empowering. Some people just need to chill.

#22 Posted by Jedted (2342 posts) -

When is the last time that someone filed a class action suit against MS anyway?

#23 Posted by Example1013 (4834 posts) -

I find it laughably bad how poor the understanding of the US court system is among the general populace here.

#24 Posted by theanticitizen (265 posts) -
@LoveYouSomeEric No this is typical corporate BS, it's not just MS that pulls this crap.
#25 Posted by Krakn3Dfx (2486 posts) -

Class action lawsuits are great if you're a lawyer.

#26 Posted by Insomniacs (4 posts) -

Wow just wow lol

#27 Posted by TheGorilla (230 posts) -

Pachter convinced me in one of his recent Pach-Attacks that in these cases class action suits are mostly scams lawyers pull to get rich. Doesn't help me at all. Class action suits in the kind of cases that would likely come up here would just be a group of consumers trying to get revenge but it won't actually accomplish anything.

If Microsoft fucks up they are going to do right by their customers. When Sony got hacked they gave all their customers a lot of free shit. Microsoft will do the same because they want to keep us happy. Eliminating class action suits is to keep lawyers from taking advantage of a situation for their sole gain. I don't really see Microsoft or Sony in a situation where they could cause us enough personal damage for a class action suit to be worthwhile in any way. But what do I know? I didn't study law so I don't know shit. I could be totally wrong. Pachter is just the only guy I know who has studied law and has commented on the issue.

For those interested (second question): http://www.gametrailers.com/video/pc-gaming-pach-attack/724515

#28 Posted by dagas (2794 posts) -

Civil Rights are so last century.

#29 Posted by Kerned (1170 posts) -

@theanticitizen said:

@LoveYouSomeEric No this is typical corporate BS, it's not just MS that pulls this crap.

You'll get no argument from me there. I certainly wasn't trying to imply that this sort of behavior is unique to MS. The erosion of consumer protections is an alarming trend across the board, and there is little hope of that trend reversing.

#30 Posted by randomfella21 (60 posts) -

@ValiantGoat said:

Some people get too worked up about this shit, granted it is a legitimate issue/concern.What people don't seem to get is that if your console explodes, burns your house down, and/or rapes your parent(s) you can still take legal action. Really these types of user agreements don't count for shit in court.

If you have a legitimate reason to take legal actions against these companys you are still in your right to do so. Largely these agreements are there to squash hokie class action suites that some shifty lawyer somewhere dreams up and somehow finds a bunch of people to hop on board.

If the legal system wasn't abused so badly with BS law suites we might never have gotten to this point. It sucks on principle, but in practise isn't the evil money making company conspiracy some people make it out to be.

Note: I really do enjoy these types of news posts, being informed is empowering. Some people just need to chill.

Yeah I guess it's important to remember that if MS does something illegal you can still take them to court. Good post.

#31 Posted by amigocesar (14 posts) -

screw the man. I'm going to get me a ball in a cup.

#32 Posted by laugurinn (62 posts) -

@ValiantGoat said:

Some people get too worked up about this shit, granted it is a legitimate issue/concern.What people don't seem to get is that if your console explodes, burns your house down, and/or rapes your parent(s) you can still take legal action. Really these types of user agreements don't count for shit in court.

If you have a legitimate reason to take legal actions against these companys you are still in your right to do so. Largely these agreements are there to squash hokie class action suites that some shifty lawyer somewhere dreams up and somehow finds a bunch of people to hop on board.

If the legal system wasn't abused so badly with BS law suites we might never have gotten to this point. It sucks on principle, but in practise isn't the evil money making company conspiracy some people make it out to be.

Note: I really do enjoy these types of news posts, being informed is empowering. Some people just need to chill.

I was going to say "Has someone checked if this will even hold up in court?" but, yeah, what he said.

#33 Posted by Cretaceous_Bob (506 posts) -

I think the greater issue of consumer rights merits some thought, but in this case I have a hard time imagining any class-action suit against MS I could ever be a part of that I wouldn't say, "Fuck it, who cares" to, so I said, "Fuck it, who cares," and accepted the TOS.

As far as people talking about rights goes, that has very little to do with MS or Xbox Live. Your government has said MS has the right to deny you the ability to do something you don't have a right to do. If this makes you angry, the way you change this situation is through government.

@Napalm said:

How long until Microsoft forces users into a Terms Of Service where they can monetize a users private information to undisclosed third parties? It all starts here folks; please pay attention.

Maybe contextualizing consumer rights through Xbox Live isn't a good idea, because I know I wouldn't like that being acceptable for TOSes, but I wouldn't give a fuck with Xbox Live.

#34 Posted by Little_Socrates (5675 posts) -

Wow, that's pretty gross. Class action suits are few and far between, but I will at least hesitate to sign back on for a little while.

#35 Posted by myslead (929 posts) -

This is as bad as McDonald writting disclaimers on their products

ie: this could make you fat.

because yes, some people actually sued them for getting fat on their food.

#36 Posted by Tim_the_Corsair (3065 posts) -

I still can't believe shit like this is allowed in America. Your legal system be craaaaaazy

#37 Posted by PhilESkyline (774 posts) -

And they complain when someone hacks their network. It's decisions like this that push people with a special set of skills to the limit.

#38 Posted by Mars_Cleric (1593 posts) -

still illegal here in aus so all good

#39 Edited by UitDeToekomst (707 posts) -

i in no way condone what Microsoft is doing with this move, but making a huge issue out of it and drawing attention to it is exactly the kind of thing that might result in a giant PSN-like hack from a group of dedicated, skilled, misguided people. and while that will certainly hurt Microsoft to a certain extent, who it really hurts are the people who have their info compromised. Therefore, I urge all to drop this matter, as not being able to get in on a class-action lawsuit is far outweighed by potential breach of personal information, not to mention the use of (what I think is) a quality product/service.

#40 Posted by zFUBARz (625 posts) -

@ValiantGoat said:

Some people get too worked up about this shit, granted it is a legitimate issue/concern.What people don't seem to get is that if your console explodes, burns your house down, and/or rapes your parent(s) you can still take legal action. Really these types of user agreements don't count for shit in court.

Actually they do hold up in court now, specifically this aspect of the TOS/EULA. Like Patrick said in the first article the US supreme court recently held up one of these involving AT&T so they can no longer be sued by their customers in this way.

@TheGorilla said:

Pachter convinced me in one of his recent Pach-Attacks that in these cases class action suits are mostly scams lawyers pull to get rich. Doesn't help me at all. Class action suits in the kind of cases that would likely come up here would just be a group of consumers trying to get revenge but it won't actually accomplish anything.

If Microsoft fucks up they are going to do right by their customers. When Sony got hacked they gave all their customers a lot of free shit. Microsoft will do the same because they want to keep us happy. Eliminating class action suits is to keep lawyers from taking advantage of a situation for their sole gain. I don't really see Microsoft or Sony in a situation where they could cause us enough personal damage for a class action suit to be worthwhile in any way. But what do I know? I didn't study law so I don't know shit. I could be totally wrong. Pachter is just the only guy I know who has studied law and has commented on the issue.

Even if monetarily it results in a marginal amount that's not the point, the point is holding companies responsible for their products services and business practices. Things like this increasingly give companies more power than actual citizens and that's fucked up (ask a wizard they'll tell you). Some people can't fight for themselves for monetary, physical, mental reasons and more, should that mean that anybody without a law degree is subject to whims of a corporate board of directors?

Sure eventually MS started the RROD replacement program, but that took a long time, and many thousands got screwed in the meantime, Sony gave a bunch of free shit? Fuck that they gave a free trial of a paid service, which they should/would have done anyway to boost interest, and a bunch of games that had sequels coming out or just released.... Sooooo they used lost a bunch of personal and financial information, lied about it, and then offered us a bunch of advertising for reparations.

You say you can't see how this could ever be dangerous from these companies and maybe you're right, sure if your house catches on fire cause of a faulty power supply you can try to sue MS, but it's pretty damn easy for them to just say well you didn't use it properly, you had faulty wiring in the outlet etc. When 100-100,000 people come and say you burned down my house microsoft, everyone takes notice. I hate to say it but this is a slippery slope as well, even if risk is minimal with these companies (which I don't really agree with but whatever) this is several companies doing it now. More will follow, do you want to buy a home from some major contractor who can't be held legally responsible to the fullest extent if they fuck up? Buy a car, hell use an elevator? I know I don't I want companies to fuckng fear me as a consumer, not the other way around.

Here's the thing, if people keep giving up their rights like this, corporations will continue to walk all over us and everyone will be a second class citizen to a non existent entity. If I fuck up as a worker I am responsible, and that's fair, why shouldn't corporations (who are legally considered people) be held to the same standards?

TL:DR this behaviour is BS and I might just go pure PC next gen.

#41 Posted by Cook66 (227 posts) -

@Jedted said:

When is the last time that someone filed a class action suit against MS anyway?

The last time it happend. Literally. The last fucking time.

#42 Posted by Thor_Molecules (732 posts) -

@UitDeToekomst: Meanwhile, it's not your rights being taken away, seeing as you are European. These TOS don't apply to you.

Don't act like we should tiptoe around issues like this just because we're scared of potential hacks or revenge against microsoft's services. PSN was hacked because of a massive security flaw, not nerd rage.

#43 Edited by Trylks (829 posts) -

@PhilESkyline said:

And they complain when someone hacks their network. It's decisions like this that push people with a special set of skills to the limit.

QFT. I can imagine that things like this are provoking those people.

#44 Posted by TigerDX (338 posts) -

Steady erosion of consumer rights hidden in EULAs and ToS agreements--that everyone just accepts--is a real problem. As Patrick mentions, you could claim that the market will balance this out, and that consumers will vote with their dollar, but when it means essentially having to stop playing games online, is anyone ever really going to do that? Leveraging a system into which users have already invested time and money, in order to gain legal advantages, is something that absolutely should be called out.

Patrick has a greater platform on which to voice these concerns, and I for one am glad he is willing to use it, and not just wilt from a worsening situation because of a few naysayers.

I think it's important to consider the meaning of the term "slippery slope," though I'll admit it can work both ways.

#45 Edited by NoelVeiga (1091 posts) -

@Buzzkill said:

and this is why I don't support Microsoft or Sony.

Huh. You're in a very odd site for a man who does all his gaming on phones, macs and linux PCs. How do you manage? Lots of Wii games?

#46 Posted by darkdragonmage99 (740 posts) -

AS if the TOS is a legally binding contract as is now they add coercion to the list of reason why it's not.   
 
Agree to this or you can't use something you already paid for and you don't get your money back.  Black mail anyone ? 

#47 Posted by elko84 (1059 posts) -

@NoelVeiga said:

@Buzzkill said:

and this is why I don't support Microsoft or Sony.

Huh. You're in a very odd site for a man who does all his gaming on phones, macs and linux PCs. How do you manage? Lots of Wii games?

He's still playing his Sega Genesis!!

#48 Posted by NekuCTR (1663 posts) -

I don't know guys. Telling someone that they have to tell you something seems pretty morally dark dark grey.

#49 Posted by lockwoodx (2479 posts) -

@elko84 said:

@NoelVeiga said:

@Buzzkill said:

and this is why I don't support Microsoft or Sony.

Huh. You're in a very odd site for a man who does all his gaming on phones, macs and linux PCs. How do you manage? Lots of Wii games?

He's still playing his Sega Genesis!!

I do what any intelligent gamer would do. Mooch off my roommates consoles and stick to my PC.

#50 Posted by Ezekeilpurger (321 posts) -

Hey dog, we've known terms of service agreements have been dicking us forever.

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