Did MS honestly still not fix their d-pad with the Xbox One?

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#51 Posted by Sergio (2079 posts) -

I didn't find the Xbox One's D-pad that bad. That said, having tried both, the DualShock 4 felt more comfortable to me than the Xbox One controller. Microsoft managed to modify the ergonomics enough to make my small hands cramp up in one use.

#52 Edited by BaconGames (3358 posts) -

Well, how about we wait until it's out and a ton of people have it on their hands? But I'm sure a thread just like this will replace it 10 fold come launch day.

#53 Posted by BRich (431 posts) -

@thephantomstranger: Whoa, interesting.. but can you blame me for never actually having seen a Wii U in the wild?

#54 Edited by xyzygy (9935 posts) -

What really makes me think this is off is when he's playing that really arcadey PS4 game and goes on about how he likes to play arcadey games with the D-Pad and that it's insanely integral in his purchase decision BUT HE NEVER USES THE D-PAD FOR THE ARCADEY GAME.

#55 Posted by SpaceInsomniac (3628 posts) -

@xyzygy said:

What really makes me think this is off is when he's playing that really arcadey PS4 game and goes on about how he likes to play arcadey games with the D-Pad and that it's insanely integral in his purchase decision BUT HE NEVER USES THE D-PAD FOR THE ARCADEY GAME.

Wait, what? Do you honestly expect him to play a racing game or a 3D platformer with a d-pad? THAT is what makes you think this is somehow "off"?

#56 Edited by xyzygy (9935 posts) -

@spaceinsomniac said:

@xyzygy said:

What really makes me think this is off is when he's playing that really arcadey PS4 game and goes on about how he likes to play arcadey games with the D-Pad and that it's insanely integral in his purchase decision BUT HE NEVER USES THE D-PAD FOR THE ARCADEY GAME.

Wait, what? Do you honestly expect him to play a racing game or a 3D platformer with a d-pad? THAT is what makes you think this is somehow "off"?

He was playing what looked like a top down brawler. That's pretty damn arcadey to me. I'm not talking about the Racing game, who uses a d-pad for racing games?

It's just a little ironic, that's all. From other accounts I've also heard people saying that the d-pad is really nice and old school and clicky, so you should just wait until you can try one out to judge it for yourself.

#57 Edited by flippyandnod (373 posts) -

I've used both controllers barely got to use the D-pad on Xbox One, I felt the DS4 D-pad was better than the Xbox One pad. But for the kinds of games I play, both should work fine.

It is a little surprising MS doesn't stop trying unusual D-pad fixes and just copy the D-pad off another device almost verbatim. This has worked for a lot of other companies.

#58 Posted by GIyn (202 posts) -

What are you using a dpad for?

No one uses the d-pad for games on the xbox 360, because the d-pad is not useable with games. Supply + demand.

#59 Posted by Canteu (2821 posts) -

Don't care. As long as the Dualshock has the left stick in the wrong place, MS will have the advantage. There is a reason the 360 controller has become the de facto controller after all.

#60 Posted by EXTomar (4629 posts) -

*shrug* The 360 is the only controller that seems to do that. The two controllers I use on PC have the sticks in the right place which were below.

#61 Posted by Hailinel (24272 posts) -

@canteu said:

Don't care. As long as the Dualshock has the left stick in the wrong place, MS will have the advantage. There is a reason the 360 controller has become the de facto controller after all.

I always found the 360 controller weird because of the asymmetrical stick placement. I prefer the layout of the DualShock and the Wii U GamePad/Pro Controller. Either both above, or both below.

Online
#62 Edited by Belegorm (396 posts) -

@canteu:

I disagree and IMO it works better if the controller is symmetrical, and the d-pad's in the primary position. This is partially due to me mostly playing games on a controller that works better with d-pad: fighting games, sidescrollers, platformers, RPGs (there are some that also use the analogue stick), and 2D games. Also for shooters I much prefer the accuracy of a mouse and keyboard setup, so there really aren't many cases where I'd like a game to be primarily controlled with the analogue stick. And in some of the cases where I do (some MMOs where you use a controller), I still need a good d-pad for quick menu selections.

#63 Edited by jayjonesjunior (1087 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@canteu said:

Don't care. As long as the Dualshock has the left stick in the wrong place, MS will have the advantage. There is a reason the 360 controller has become the de facto controller after all.

I always found the 360 controller weird because of the asymmetrical stick placement. I prefer the layout of the DualShock and the Wii U GamePad/Pro Controller. Either both above, or both below.

I'm a Playstation guy, my first Playstation was the Dualshock edition, i've been using the Dualshock brand of controllers for almost 20 years and when i use the 360 pad for PC it feels like crap, completely wrong, while the Dualshock is basically an extension of my hand, i bet the same but inverse happens to Xbox people.

Now the PS4 controller must be something else for Xbox people to say all those good things about it, or maybe, they (subconsciously) really like the PS4/rate the Xbox One for completely unrelated reasons and it comes out (as a happy feeling in their pants) when they try the controller.

#64 Posted by Canteu (2821 posts) -

@jayjonesjunior: I can use a PS2 controller just fine (don't have a PS3), maybe it's my hand size (small) but the dualshock is just real uncomfortable for me.

I'm actually leaning towards PS4 for the new gen, but the controller has nothing to do wtih it.

#65 Edited by egg (1455 posts) -

@brich said:

@egg: You want MS to move the right thumbstick to where the face buttons are placed on every controller ever made? To each their own..

The Dual Shock is the only controller where the left thumbstick is placed in the secondary position. Every other controller made by Sega, Nintendo, and Microsoft over the years have placed your primary movement input in the primary position.

"You want MS to move the right thumbstick to where the face buttons are placed on every controller ever made?"

You want Sony to move the left thumbstick to where the dpad is placed on every controller ever made?

derp

"The Dual Shock is the only controller where the left thumbstick is placed in the secondary position. Every other controller made by Sega, Nintendo, and Microsoft over the years have placed your primary movement input in the primary position."

First off, you're wrong. Look up PC gamepads on amazon.com and you'll find both-sticks-on-bottom layouts being made to this day.

Second, before you go off claiming the WiiU for your cause, I should note that on WiiU, both the lefthand and righthand thumbstick in the primary position, by any standard making it the superior controller than both PS4 and Xbox One. So why are you defending Xbox at the exclusion of Playstation?

Even if Dual Shock was the only one, that wouldn't necessarily prove the design is inferior. We all use QWERTY keyboards but that doesn't make them the superior design, it's merely because people got used to them.** Anyone with the least bit of maturity can accept that.

**(as you and others evidently did with the irrational layout of the Xbox line of controllers)

#66 Posted by LiquidPrince (15901 posts) -

Played with the controller yesterday. It still pales in comparison to the PS3 and presumably PS4 d-pad, but is far better then the 360 one. Although that's not saying much, as the 360 d-pad is the definition of shit. The main problem I had with it, is I don't like the placing of it for anything other then a quick select shortcut. I also think it's still too small to be used comfortably in something like Street Fighter, or any fighting game for that matter.

#67 Edited by BRich (431 posts) -

@jayjonesjunior said:

@hailinel said:

@canteu said:

Don't care. As long as the Dualshock has the left stick in the wrong place, MS will have the advantage. There is a reason the 360 controller has become the de facto controller after all.

I always found the 360 controller weird because of the asymmetrical stick placement. I prefer the layout of the DualShock and the Wii U GamePad/Pro Controller. Either both above, or both below.

I'm a Playstation guy, my first Playstation was the Dualshock edition, i've been using the Dualshock brand of controllers for almost 20 years and when i use the 360 pad for PC it feels like crap, completely wrong, while the Dualshock is basically an extension of my hand, i bet the same but inverse happens to Xbox people.

Now the PS4 controller must be something else for Xbox people to say all those good things about it, or maybe, they (subconsciously) really like the PS4/rate the Xbox One for completely unrelated reasons and it comes out (as a happy feeling in their pants) when they try the controller.

..or N64 people, or Gamecube people, or Dreamcast people. The point is since the analog stick has become the standard input it is placed in the primary position on the left and the face buttons are primary on the right. The fact that Sony released the Playstation one and then just bolted on thumbsticks below the controller halfway through it's life makes it feel different and weird compared to controllers designed with analog in mind.

I guess it just became too iconic for them to redesign from the ground up for the DS2 and 3.

#68 Edited by BRich (431 posts) -

@egg: You might want to read up on QWERTY keyboards. It is a superior design based on letter pair frequency. There are other layouts that have been attempted over the years which fell out of favor due to inefficiency.

Obscure PC gamepads are not a great example. Of course there are models out their mimicking the layouts of console controllers.

"You want Sony to move the left thumbstick to where the dpad is placed on every controller ever made?" No idea what this even means. I want Sony to move the primary movement input to where the primary movement input is placed on every console controller ever made other than the Dual Shock series. I don't want what Nintendo did with the WiiU controller as they moved the primary button input to a secondary position (this is almost as weird as Sony's bolted on left thumbstick below the controller.)

Overall though, I think both controllers look vastly improved. The Xbox one's D-pad at least appears to be less of an embarrassing failure and I'm really pumped that Sony decided to tighten up those loose thumbsticks and throw some functional L2 and R2 triggers on the DS4 (maybe shooting dudes in the face will be awesome this go around regardless of layout.)

#69 Edited by egg (1455 posts) -

"The fact that Sony released the Playstation one and then just bolted on thumbsticks below the controller halfway through it's life makes it feel different and weird compared to controllers designed with analog in mind."

That's a brilliant non-sequitur you drew up there. I can do that too. Behold: "The fact that every other console company changed their controllers even as Sony's kept theirs the same proves that those other controllers felt different and weird compared to the timeless Dual Shock design."

It's the other inane controller designs that have come and gone, such as N64, Dreamcast, and Gamecube. These controllers were designed from scratch yet somehow they were outlasted by a PS1 pad with thumbsticks stapled to it, a design Sony had multiple opportunities to alter, yet they didn't, maybe because *gasp* it fucking works?

"every console controller ever made other than the Dual Shock series."

ahem

Well yea but it's Wii. Wii doesn't count. The only system/controller that matters is Xbox, right? =/

"Obscure PC gamepads are not a great example. Of course there are models out their mimicking the layouts of console controllers."

Ok, but why would they mimic the layout of PS3 controller seeing as it is OBVIOUSLY inferior and backwards? Shouldn't the fact DS style gamepads are produced indicate that a market for them exists (no matter how small) which in turns indicates that not everyone agrees with you? That is what your position is, isn't it? You're arguing that everyone who likes PS controller is obviously wrong, whereas I'm arguing the case that people have different preferences/opinions and that you're kinda being an elitist dick who technically doesn't even have a rational/objective basis to stand on.

"I want Sony to move the primary movement input to where the primary movement input is placed on every console controller ever made other than the Dual Shock series."

But instead of wanting Sony to change their controller to make it like Xbox's, why not instead want Sony to let you use a different controller? Wouldn't freedom be a better solution than fascism? For as much criticizing as you're doing you're overlooking how arbitrarily restrictive both the Playstation and Xbox platforms are.

"I don't want what Nintendo did with the WiiU controller as they moved the primary button input to a secondary position (this is almost as weird as Sony's bolted on left thumbstick below the controller.)"

"Primary movement input" "Primary button input" What about my primary aiming input? Have you never played a first or third person shooter? (or pretty much any game this gen?) Why should my primary aiming input be relegated to the uncouthe secondary position? I guess just demand more accuracy than most gamers but seeing as you obviously don't care about accuracy, I'm puzzled why you care so much about the movement thumbstick being in the correct position when that would all the more conspicuously leave the aiming thumbstick in the sorry-ass "bolted on" position you so despise.

Going by your own arguments, you're insisting that controllers be half obsolete. You want the left half of the controller to be in 2013, but the right half must be from 1998. I have to ask, are you perhaps critically blind? You do not cross-examine your own beliefs or preferences ever?

#70 Edited by BRich (431 posts) -

@egg: I've just owned every console since the NES (except for the WiiU) and therefore have gotten to experience every mainstream controller. I play first and third person shooters, but face buttons are still primary for most games. If I only played shooters, maybe the WiiU controller would be perfect. This example is identical to citing Fighting games as the reason for keeping the Dpad primary: it's a minority example on a controller than has to apply to everything.

Sure, being able to choose any controller for any system is the ideal solution. Just being realistic here and want to enjoy playstation games with something better than the pretty awful DS3. Thankfully, from all early reports Sony seems to have stepped up and made an awesome controller.

#71 Posted by Deranged (1837 posts) -

I've heard it's an improvement over the 360 D-Pad but not a substantial one in regards to the other things the pad tunes to near-perfection. I don't really mind though, anything is better than the 360 D-Pad, it's unbearable to use while playing Injustice or any other fighting game and the joystick is horrendous.

#72 Edited by sentuamessage (4 posts) -

The twist 360 d pad that rises has never given me problems, the old d pad was horrible but we can only tell from launch for the one.

though who uses dpad? I use dpad only on ps3 for FIFA as there thumbsticks suck but on 360 rarely ever use dpad

#73 Posted by BRich (431 posts) -
#74 Posted by ch3burashka (5036 posts) -

I don't know shit about it (didn't look at the thing you linked), but the d-pad is at least recessed into the pad, thus eliminating the 'faux-analog-stick' issue of the current d-pad. We'll find out soon enough.

#75 Edited by egg (1455 posts) -

"Just being realistic here and want to enjoy playstation games with something better than the pretty awful DS3."

What does it mean to be realistic? No matter how low I set the bar The Big 2 can't be said to deliver. I'm not asking them to produce two controllers each. If the controllers were cross compatible the whole issue would be solved at practically no cost to them. However it seems Sony and MS are negligent to matters of gaming. Want better graphics? You will get on their terms and their terms only. No 60 fps, no 1080p, no remappable controls, no BC, no controller BC, no gamepad support, paid online, mandatory Kinect. Touchpad on the controller. Touchpad on the controller, imagine! The new consoles are like their soapbox of senile ideas. Remappable controls, really egg? Clearly you're asking for too much, and/or are in the minority. Interfacing with your smartphone, now that's the future!

"Talk about a relevant article! Sony needed an 80% majority from developer feedback to swap the D-pad and Left Analog, but ultimately did not want to abandon the "Playstation look.""

Seems they did not want to make the controller look like shit.

"I play first and third person shooters, but face buttons are still primary for most games."

Let's put aside for the moment the fact that you are obviously and abhorrently wrong. Let me argue a point: If a controller's design has face buttons placed in the "primary" position, wouldn't games end up using them more than they should? Humans are a subliminal bunch aren't they? Furthermore, if face buttons were the primary input for over a decade, and shoulder buttons did not even exist originally, wouldn't face buttons invariably become overused to at least some extent purely out of convention? Because people are used to it and all new ideas, even good ideas, have to face the tide to some degree? (Even shoulder buttons, to this very day. Even righthand thumbsticks. Thanks to people like you.) I for one think controller design should reflect modern gaming, not pander to regressive control schemes.

"If I only played shooters, maybe the WiiU controller would be perfect. This example is identical to citing Fighting games as the reason for keeping the Dpad primary: it's a minority example on a controller than has to apply to everything."

Thing is, I'm not even saying that Xbox layout is bad for fighting games. That's what you're implying according to your logic. You say a console controller must apply to everything, but by your logic both this is impossible since no matter what something has to be slung in the dreaded "secondary position", whether it's the dpad (Xbox), thumbstick (PS, Xbox), or buttons (WiiU). Thusly the controller which supposedly "has to apply to everything" will always be bad at something. Why would I want to use a controller that is inferior for certain genres, when I can use an elegant design like Playstation's or WiiU's that treats all positions equally.

You're going on and on about secondary position, yet it's only the Xbox controller which suggests the inferiority of position. Like oh, "The lefthand stick, good heavens, that can't go down there, it's too important" But what about the aiming stick then? The fuck is an aiming stick, right? "Oh, umm. It's like how in mario 64, sometimes the player wants to look around." ¯\(°_o)/¯ It's still 2001 apparently in MS's world. Over a decade later and they still don't want to update their controller.

Isn't it truly weird btw that the original Xbox controller has a smaller groove for the righthand stick? It's like they made that stick worse on purpose, a la Gamecube, as though they didn't want to player to get the two sticks confused.

"Remember kids, the aiming stick is like the face buttons' fat groupie."

Again, going by the secondary/primary position logic which YOU are making an issue of, the controllers would stand as so:

  • WiiU - best controller for shooters and first-person anything (both sticks on top)
  • Playstation - best controller for sidescrollers and fighting games (dpad and buttons on top)
  • Xbox 360/One - best controller for, I suppose, hack/slash, and racing games

If you disagree with the above.. you don't have an argument. At best I can concede that it comes down to genre preferences, (e.g. if someone likes fighters then obviously the Dual Shock is the ideal choice) but to be impartial to genres I would say the correct choice is either WiiU's layout (as it's most relevant to modern gaming) or to say that layout doesn't really matter. Even if one did argue in favor of a particular layout, it reeks of inanity to insist on an assymetrical combination like Xbox's. It just proves that you're either attached to it, or that you can't make up your mind.

"For the analog sticks, we did test having the analog sticks on top, since the Xbox has the left side on top [above the D-pad]," he said. "Especially from the shooter teams — we got feedback that that’s what they wanted. They knew that consumers liked the 360 for shooters."

And just a moment ago you acted like shooters shouldn't take precedence when designing a controller.

Well guess what, in the end Sony agreed with you. Huzzah.

#76 Edited by BRich (431 posts) -

@egg:

  • WiiU - best controller for shooters and first-person anything (both sticks on top)
  • Playstation - best controller for sidescrollers and fighting games (dpad and buttons on top)
  • Xbox 360/One - best controller for, I suppose, hack/slash, and racing games"

I'd agree with this for the most part. I prefer an analog stick for side-scrollers though, so..

WiiU layout: First person shooters/Third person shooters that don't rely on facebuttons much. Also, racing is perfectly fine here

Playstation: Fighting games

Xbox: First/Third person action games, RPGs, adventure, strategy, sidescrollers, racing, puzzle. Also many first person and third person shooters could fall here as a significant number rely heavily on facebuttons.

So in the real world where companies are not going to let you hand the opposition money and use their controller, I'd like a layout that works best for the most genres. The point is moot, Sony didn't get the full 80% majority they needed to make the change.

#77 Posted by egg (1455 posts) -

Sorry to revive this, but turns out there is actually one point where I might concede that the 360/One controller is "better".

I'm not about to argue with the U.S. MILITARY! =/

(though I have to wonder if this is merely a matter of circumstance.. for instance maybe which controller was better had nothing to do with their choice, as opposed to issues like compatibility (most likely this), cost, whichever system was more popular back then, or heck, maybe simply it being american-made.)

#78 Edited by bigjeffrey (4904 posts) -

Dpad is alright, ki plays great

#79 Edited by handlas (2672 posts) -

I may be going out on a limb here but...

I think the d-pad is even worse than the 360 one. It's like more recessed into the controller and kind of clicky I think. I could not play with it. I could not pull off the fireball sort of moves. Had to use the stick for Killer Instinct. The twisty d-pad was the best 360 d-pad.

But I think the sticks are my favorite. I like the little outer rim texture.

#80 Posted by ShaggE (6401 posts) -

I enjoyed reading this increasingly heated and bizarre argument over thumbstick placement.

Makes me want to see if I could get somebody to go off on me because I keep my wallet in my front pocket, or because I tend to favor my left foot while walking.

#81 Posted by John1912 (1853 posts) -

Havent used the new Dpad for anything, but the old one was fine. I used to play SF HD Remix with it. There was nothing wrong with it. I could play just about as well with the Dpad as the SF TE Arcade stick. Stop being a hack?

#82 Edited by MariachiMacabre (7070 posts) -

@shagge said:

I enjoyed reading this increasingly heated and bizarre argument over thumbstick placement.

Makes me want to see if I could get somebody to go off on me because I keep my wallet in my front pocket, or because I tend to favor my left foot while walking.

Sick son of a bitch.

#83 Edited by MB (12199 posts) -

I got to play some Killer Instinct earlier today, I thought the dpad was totally fine. I don't think it's as good as the redesigned adjustable 360 dpad, but it's still fine.

Moderator
#84 Posted by crithon (3111 posts) -

am I alone in just accessing menus with a D pad? That's why I always felt the Xbox dpads were horrible, I could attempt a King of Fighter style super but really just going into menus and watching it swivel all over the place is embarrassment.

#85 Posted by ajamafalous (11938 posts) -

@shagge said:

I enjoyed reading this increasingly heated and bizarre argument over thumbstick placement.

Makes me want to see if I could get somebody to go off on me because I keep my wallet in my front pocket, or because I tend to favor my left foot while walking.

Are you afraid of it being stolen, or is there another reason? I'm curious, because I literally couldn't fit my wallet into my front pockets even if I wanted to.

#86 Edited by kpaadet (410 posts) -

@shagge said:

I enjoyed reading this increasingly heated and bizarre argument over thumbstick placement.

Makes me want to see if I could get somebody to go off on me because I keep my wallet in my front pocket, or because I tend to favor my left foot while walking.

Are you afraid of it being stolen, or is there another reason? I'm curious, because I literally couldn't fit my wallet into my front pockets even if I wanted to.

More money more problems, amirite?

#87 Posted by kishinfoulux (2277 posts) -

It's great. Using it with Killer Instinct feels real nice.

#88 Posted by Stubstub (26 posts) -

The d-pad feels fine to me. I've used it for Killer Instinct with no issues.

#89 Edited by Bulby33 (581 posts) -

I've been using the new controller quite a bit and I really like the new d-pad. It feels great.

Though, I hardly use it for anything. Basically for picking weapons and navigating the menus.

#90 Edited by ShaggE (6401 posts) -

@shagge said:

I enjoyed reading this increasingly heated and bizarre argument over thumbstick placement.

Makes me want to see if I could get somebody to go off on me because I keep my wallet in my front pocket, or because I tend to favor my left foot while walking.

Are you afraid of it being stolen, or is there another reason? I'm curious, because I literally couldn't fit my wallet into my front pockets even if I wanted to.

I just can't stand having anything in my back pockets. It feels really strange. The theft thing is a benefit (I live in a shady-ass city), but definitely not the reason.

As for fitting, it doesn't hurt that my wallet doesn't have much in it, haha. The only downside is that I tend to put a metric fuckton of stuff in my pockets, so it can be tough to pull it out at a moment's notice.

#91 Posted by killerishere828 (22 posts) -

It's much better in my opinion

#92 Posted by JamesJeux007 (472 posts) -

After reading thread after thread of people hating on controllers (regardless of console), I'm starting love myself for thinking :

  • the 360 D-Pad is the best, most enjoyable and most convenient D-Pad of any controller
  • the DS3 is a pretty awesome controller that I used extensively for years without issues and I love the fact that it doesn't rumble (I now turn off rumble in all my games)
  • the GamePad is the most comfortable controller to handle and its gyroscope is super responsive, precise and an awesome feature

So when I hear people say "The new generation controllers are the SHIT ! Finally !", I can't wait. Because the ones I'm using already are the best shit ever.

#93 Edited by GERALTITUDE (3179 posts) -

@vanick said:

@hunkulese: @thrillhouse87:

I think most people that play fighting games with a controller prefer the d-pad. It's not a fighting game but when I played Guacamelee I only used the d-pad on the PS3 controller. I'm not really a fighting game guy but I prefer it for 2-D platformers when the option is available.

My thoughts exactly.

#94 Edited by GaspoweR (2937 posts) -

@spaceinsomniac: I bought an Xbox One controller in anticipation for the PC drivers but as far as I can tell, the D-Pad is a massive improvement over the 360's. It's clicky and since the patent on that cross design has expired, they're using that particular design which is a good thing. Hopefully, that hacked driver being done by Chris Gallizzi gets released soon so I can know for sure and then I'll try it out on PACMAN CE DX.

#95 Edited by csl316 (8349 posts) -

My judgement of dpads is how reliable it is for pulling off Soul Steal in Symphony of the Night (since it gets released on almost every platform nowadays).

Currently awaiting the SotN testing opportunity for next-gen to arrive.

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