Kinect-free Xbox One coming June 9

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#51 Posted by spraynardtatum (3735 posts) -

@jesus_phish: The new Kinect better be a completely different product or else Kinect has bigger problems than reaching the biggest userbase. The first Kinect was absolute garbage. It sold incredibly well but it was a hunk of shit turds. A bunch of people bought it (24 million) and there were also a ton of games made for it but 99% of them were just garbage excuses to use your hunk of shit turd Kinect piece of shit.

A lot has changed in 2-3 years and indies are in a much better position now than they were when Super Meat Boy took the world by storm and the first Kinect came out.

I would like to hear from devs if they're upset instead of just assuming that they are. Sure, Microsoft promised them it'd be with every console but they didn't really seem to care. I'm sure there will be a couple that don't like the news but honestly there was 1 game on the horizon that used Kinect in a significant way. In the year since the Xbox One came out I didn't see any increase in interest from developers who wanted to make something for it and the one single game that did come out was received poorly.

And lets be real here, the new Kinect is there for the UI and voice commands.

#52 Edited by Jesus_Phish (1152 posts) -

@spraynardtatum: The new kinect is better than the old one sure, but its still the same device at the core.

As for devs being upset both the devs at Harmonix and the guys behind Octodad have stated that they're not all that chuffed about the loss of the kinect. I'm sure there are other indie devs who aren't as trilled. I can't imagine the #IDARB guys being too trilled that the device required for their game to work with QR codes is now optional and thus removes a big feature from their game.

And it hasn't even been a year since it came out. It's been a couple of months. There was already an increase in development for the new kinect based off the fact developers knew that people would be able to play their games.

#53 Edited by EXTomar (4951 posts) -

That is like saying there is already increased Wii U development because of that crazy controller supports NFID. I have a suspicion that developers and producers, many of who are in tight timelines and budgets, just don't care about fancy peripherals where suggesting "the groundswell" is just around the corner is more daydreaming.

#54 Edited by spraynardtatum (3735 posts) -

@jesus_phish: if that interview Jeff did with the #IDARB developer showed anything its that the game was meant to constantly change. They've completely changed the game multiple times already so altering it again almost fits perfectly with their design model.

I haven't seen any increase in Kinect development, in fact; since the Xbox One came out there's been a drought.

Developers are savvy people. If they have a great idea for using kinect they'll put it in their game even though the userbase is no longer 100%. The Kinect is still going to be sold in the premium bundle and separately so the userbase will still grow with the console. If enough people keep using it than developers can feel assured that their games will be played and if not than why are they making games for it anyways?

#55 Edited by MB (13140 posts) -

This is similar to the same mistake Microsoft made with the Xbox 360 and having some with hard drives, some without, some with Kinect, some with built in flash memory, and more. Instead of having one configuration of console to develop for, now developers have several. I was no fan of the idea of a mandatory Kinect, but at least that meant that every Xbox One owner had one, giving rise to the possibility that the technology would start to be used in some more innovative and compelling ways. I guess that's pretty much just out the window at this point.

Moderator
#56 Edited by Jesus_Phish (1152 posts) -

@spraynardtatum: Since the X1 and PS4 came out there's been a general drought of everything related to them, because this is what happens with new consoles. I know its been 8 years since the last console releases, but the very same thing happened then. They came out and there were very few games to play on either of them, with big titles being off in the distance.

My overall point is this. Developers were lied to by Microsoft and with Microsoft backflipping/changing the very "core" of their console experience they've all but signed the papers that Kinect as a gaming device is dead. They were told that every unit would have this device. That would have lead to developers being more inclined to use the device and to put resources towards it. Then we might have really seen something good come from it. That's not going to happen now. Big AAA studios aren't going to waste resources on the "maybe" of people owning a peripheral, this is a reason I think Morpheus will fail unless Sony give amazing support to developers of they have a way to just have some sort of plug in package for games to support it.

@extomar: Not really. There is no increase in development for the WiiU because Nintendo have other problems, the biggest ones being that a) the WiiU doesn't sell, b) Nintendo have terrible third party support and c) the Wii had a terrible attachment rate when it came to people actually buying games for it.

#57 Edited by Chaser324 (6745 posts) -

I expected them to hold out longer than six months, but this is definitely good news for anyone looking to pick up an Xbox One at a lower price point.

Moderator
#58 Posted by crithon (3456 posts) -

great idea.

#59 Edited by spraynardtatum (3735 posts) -
@mb said:

This is similar to the same mistake Microsoft made with the Xbox 360 and having some with hard drives, some without, some with Kinect, some with built in flash memory, and more. Instead of having one configuration of console to develop for, now developers have several. I was no fan of the idea of a mandatory Kinect, but at least that meant that every Xbox One owner had one, giving rise to the possibility that the technology would start to be used in some more innovative and compelling ways. I guess that's pretty much just out the window at this point.

The technology can still be used in innovative and compelling ways. It isn't either or like that. Innovation isn't dependent on accessibility. Project Morpheus isn't going to be bundled with every PS4 but I can't imagine there not being innovative and compelling games made specifically for it. Provided it works as advertised (not the Kinect's forte). I don't think we should be upset that we lost something that showed no evidence of ever happening. Maybe something great will come out of Kinect. Maybe not. At least now people can decide for themselves.

I think this is a great move that took A TON OF BALLS and I don't see the gaming community losing out on any great games because of it. If a developer suddenly realizes what the missing ingredient has been all along and makes a really innovative and great game with Kinect at the centerpiece then it will sell itself.

#60 Edited by EXTomar (4951 posts) -

@jesus_phish said:

@extomar: Not really. There is no increase in development for the WiiU because Nintendo have other problems, the biggest ones being that a) the WiiU doesn't sell, b) Nintendo have terrible third party support and c) the Wii had a terrible attachment rate when it came to people actually buying games for it.

*sigh* You missed the point: Microsoft has other problems where the Kinect was a result. It lead to the creation of box full of features that no one cared about where Kinect was the proverbial cherry on top. Saying that Microsoft killed it too soon because developers were just getting good at it ignores at least 3 years of people trying to figure out what to do with it and the best we got was a goofy voice command interface that works intermittently.

To spell it out for you: There is no evidence developers were eagerly working on Kinect or the 3D feature on the 3DS or the NFID/motion/whatever on the Wii U. The suggestion that Microsoft is abandoning developers by killing the Kinect is laughable.

#61 Posted by Marokai (3151 posts) -

I understand the sentiment that it might hurt developers who are working on Kinect games, but at the same time, the consumers shouldn't be expected to front one-hundred large just so we can have one or two halfway decent Kinect games a year. That's completely crazy. If the Kinect game is impressive it should make me want it. It should earn it. The cost of it shouldn't be forced upon me so I feel like I have to pity-purchase a Kinect game just to justify it to myself.

Microsoft did the right thing here. They gave consumers more choices. If that makes some developers have to try harder on Kinect games, I don't really feel too bad about it. If there truly is innovation to exist in that device it shouldn't be dependent on making everyone have to beta test the damn thing at our expense for years until we get there.

#62 Posted by Sacui (46 posts) -

People are looking to far into this. It's just a different version of the product, calm the fuck down.

And people saying they're copying Sony? Idiots.

#63 Posted by Roboculus92 (534 posts) -

@marokai said:

I understand the sentiment that it might hurt developers who are working on Kinect games, but at the same time, the consumers shouldn't be expected to front one-hundred large just so we can have one or two halfway decent Kinect games a year. That's completely crazy. If the Kinect game is impressive it should make me want it. It should earn it. The cost of it shouldn't be forced upon me so I feel like I have to pity-purchase a Kinect game just to justify it to myself.

Microsoft did the right thing here. They gave consumers more choices. If that makes some developers have to try harder on Kinect games, I don't really feel too bad about it. If there truly is innovation to exist in that device it shouldn't be dependent on making everyone have to beta test the damn thing at our expense for years until we get there.

I completely agree.

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#64 Posted by GERALTITUDE (3509 posts) -

The logical decision.

And yet, there was something exciting about a camera 100% of the install base had - not needing to have it plugged in at all times was a step in this direction, and now the axe drops.

#65 Posted by Hunkulese (2875 posts) -

@gaspower said:

@hunkulese: It's not like their discontinuing that SKU, you can still get one with Kinect.

That's not the point. I thought the integral Kinect experience they were promoting sounded interesting and was going to pick up an Xbox One after they had ironed out some of the kinks. There was a whole bunch of "next gen" ideas when they announced the Xbox One and unfortunately they've given up on all of them. I don't see what removing the Kinect is going to do for them. What differentiates it from the PS4 at this point besides the fact that it's slightly less powerful? Neither console is all that interesting at this point and feel more like half steps forward.

#66 Posted by overnow (292 posts) -

I'm still pretty torn about which console I want, but if the One winds up being $399 CAD then it very well wind up being my choice, especially after the PS4 price bump here. It sucks for the people who actually want Kinect to be good but I personally have just about no interest in it outside of some of the voice commands so I would most definitely buy the no-Kinect version if I do go for the One.

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#67 Posted by Gatehouse (711 posts) -

Well, I'm not shocked, but still a little bit surprised that they abandoned their position so quickly. While I have pretty much zero time for motion gaming, this once again relegates Kinect to a novelty that so many developers will just ignore once more.

#68 Posted by coloursheep (45 posts) -

This is obviously very far off but what do they do if there is another Xbox after this one, they cannot ever hope to get any customer or developer support for a piece of tech they have effectively killed twice now, and with that being the case what would their hook for the new system be?

#69 Posted by Jesus_Phish (1152 posts) -

@coloursheep: They'll probably build in the voice features to the next unit and just abandon the motion/camera stuff. The Kinect is effectively a microphone now.

#70 Edited by SpaceInsomniac (3906 posts) -

Basically, we've got a bunch of people bitching about 180s, conviction, vision, et al. WHEN THEY'RE GETTING EXACTLY WHAT THEY ASKED FOR. The X1 isn't perfect, but they've at least been responsive in trying to make it as appealing as possible. Personally, I applaud Microsoft's ambition with the X1. It doesn't appear Kinect will materialize into what they'd hoped, but what we got in terms of voice controls was worth it in my book. I'm reminded of the adage "if you shoot for the moon, you'll land in the stars." They tried to make more than just a game console (and mostly succeeded), but much of the public seemed to only care that it cost more, ignoring that it does more. So they responded and are making a more PS4-like version. I'm of the opinion that you're missing out if you skip the Kinect, but for people whose friends are on Xbox who think an extra benjamin is a deal-breaker, now they've got that option. In theory, everyone should be happy. In THEORY.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/9145-The-Trap-Of-Gamer-Gratitude

#71 Edited by notnert427 (381 posts) -
@spaceinsomniac said:

@notnert427 said:

Basically, we've got a bunch of people bitching about 180s, conviction, vision, et al. WHEN THEY'RE GETTING EXACTLY WHAT THEY ASKED FOR. The X1 isn't perfect, but they've at least been responsive in trying to make it as appealing as possible. Personally, I applaud Microsoft's ambition with the X1. It doesn't appear Kinect will materialize into what they'd hoped, but what we got in terms of voice controls was worth it in my book. I'm reminded of the adage "if you shoot for the moon, you'll land in the stars." They tried to make more than just a game console (and mostly succeeded), but much of the public seemed to only care that it cost more, ignoring that it does more. So they responded and are making a more PS4-like version. I'm of the opinion that you're missing out if you skip the Kinect, but for people whose friends are on Xbox who think an extra benjamin is a deal-breaker, now they've got that option. In theory, everyone should be happy. In THEORY.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/9145-The-Trap-Of-Gamer-Gratitude

So, based on what can be gleaned from that, your theory is that Microsoft had this devious plan to ultimately introduce a console that sells for $100 less than the proper version and undercuts their own product, just to get some scattered, tepid kudos amidst a sea of overly irate blowhards like the guy in the link above who do things like managing to get pissy when there's a bundled kinect and still get pissy when there isn't. If you honestly think MS wanted the Kinect to fail, for PR reasons, no less, I can't help you. I can promise you MS execs weren't sitting at the table going "Okay, so the plan is to initially piss people off to slow our sales and necessitate cutting the price to make less money off our console, but it will all be worth it if a few people are mildly grateful when we introduce the less-profitable version. High-fives all around!"

MS tried to go big with the X1. The Kinect has failed in terms of being deemed worth the extra $100 by the consumer, so they've somewhat scrapped it in the interest of remaining competitive. It's literally that simple. There's no evil plot, no conspiracy, and they didn't create a problem to solve it; they just simply had an idea that didn't pan out as hoped and responded to the market demand (or lack thereof) for it. I, for one, am glad they tried to do something different than the PS4, even if it didn't work out as planned. I don't want two identical consoles, but apparently the dream of a bunch of folks is for Sony/MS to bring out the same box with different logos on it for the next go-round. What I don't understand is why all the people who wanted the X1 to be more like the PS4 didn't just buy a PS4 instead, or why the people who wanted this PS4-like X1 still aren't satisfied that it's coming. And for those who are honestly that infuriated that Microsoft didn't accurately anticipate the market with their initial offering, you should be similarly irate at Sony for the PS3, you should freaking hate Nintendo, etc.

I believe that a bunch of people WANT the Kinect features, but are just too cheap to pay for them. Otherwise, why not just buy the PS4 and live happily ever after? No, people apparently expect to get both the Kinect AND the same price point as the PS4, hence all the bitching. It was a hundred bucks difference. All it takes to come up with that is eating at home instead of eating out a couple of times. Boom, problem solved. However, rather than taking a hard look in the mirror at their own shitty budgeting and unwillingness to make these few small concessions, they projected that anger onto Microsoft for daring to offer something worth more that costs more. So now MS offers the "economy" X1, but these same cheap-asses STILL aren't happy because they know there's a better X1 version out there. A version which they AREN'T willing to pay for. This is like expecting a Toyota to have the same features as a Lexus. It's inane, but that clearly doesn't stop people.

#72 Edited by EXTomar (4951 posts) -

This issue isn't unique to XBox either where other recent decision where made for other that exhibit the same goofiness like Surface. The Big Wigs got into their head vendors were not selling the right products. And since they are Microsoft and they can drive demand simply because they were Microsoft. So they built their own over priced, under powered, not a laptop and not a tablet thing that had issues doing either with confused product and marketing scheme. Tangentially this is where Win8 comes from too. And likewise they were "shocked" when consumers were more interested in competitor products.

There seemed to be an issue with upper level management so the change overs at the top will probably help or at least get "fresh eyes" into decision making.

#73 Edited by SpaceInsomniac (3906 posts) -

@notnert427 said:
@spaceinsomniac said:

@notnert427 said:

Basically, we've got a bunch of people bitching about 180s, conviction, vision, et al. WHEN THEY'RE GETTING EXACTLY WHAT THEY ASKED FOR. The X1 isn't perfect, but they've at least been responsive in trying to make it as appealing as possible. Personally, I applaud Microsoft's ambition with the X1. It doesn't appear Kinect will materialize into what they'd hoped, but what we got in terms of voice controls was worth it in my book. I'm reminded of the adage "if you shoot for the moon, you'll land in the stars." They tried to make more than just a game console (and mostly succeeded), but much of the public seemed to only care that it cost more, ignoring that it does more. So they responded and are making a more PS4-like version. I'm of the opinion that you're missing out if you skip the Kinect, but for people whose friends are on Xbox who think an extra benjamin is a deal-breaker, now they've got that option. In theory, everyone should be happy. In THEORY.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/9145-The-Trap-Of-Gamer-Gratitude

So, based on what can be gleaned from that, your theory is that Microsoft had this devious plan to ultimately introduce a console that sells for $100 less than the proper version and undercuts their own product, just to get some scattered, tepid kudos amidst a sea of overly irate blowhards like the guy in the link above who do things like managing to get pissy when there's a bundled kinect and still get pissy when there isn't. If you honestly think MS wanted the Kinect to fail, for PR reasons, no less, I can't help you. I can promise you MS execs weren't sitting at the table going "Okay, so the plan is to initially piss people off to slow our sales and necessitate cutting the price to make less money off our console, but it will all be worth it if a few people are mildly grateful when we introduce the less-profitable version. High-fives all around!"

MS tried to go big with the X1. The Kinect has failed in terms of being deemed worth the extra $100 by the consumer, so they've somewhat scrapped it in the interest of remaining competitive. It's literally that simple. There's no evil plot, no conspiracy, and they didn't create a problem to solve it; they just simply had an idea that didn't pan out as hoped and responded to the market demand (or lack thereof) for it. I, for one, am glad they tried to do something different than the PS4, even if it didn't work out as planned. I don't want two identical consoles, but apparently the dream of a bunch of folks is for Sony/MS to bring out the same box with different logos on it for the next go-round. What I don't understand is why all the people who wanted the X1 to be more like the PS4 didn't just buy a PS4 instead, or why the people who wanted this PS4-like X1 still aren't satisfied that it's coming. And for those who are honestly that infuriated that Microsoft didn't accurately anticipate the market with their initial offering, you should be similarly irate at Sony for the PS3, you should freaking hate Nintendo, etc.

I believe that a bunch of people WANT the Kinect features, but are just too cheap to pay for them. Otherwise, why not just buy the PS4 and live happily ever after? No, people apparently expect to get both the Kinect AND the same price point as the PS4, hence all the bitching. It was a hundred bucks difference. All it takes to come up with that is eating at home instead of eating out a couple of times. Boom, problem solved. However, rather than taking a hard look in the mirror at their own shitty budgeting and unwillingness to make these few small concessions, they projected that anger onto Microsoft for daring to offer something worth more that costs more. So now MS offers the "economy" X1, but these same cheap-asses STILL aren't happy because they know there's a better X1 version out there. A version which they AREN'T willing to pay for. This is like expecting a Toyota to have the same features as a Lexus. It's inane, but that clearly doesn't stop people.

That was quite a rant. But no, that's not what I was suggesting. I wasn't suggesting a conspiracy, or evil plot, or their intentions to create a problem that they could fix later. Any of that is quite insane.

You shouldn't be thankful when companies fix their own fuck-ups. when they shouldn't have fucked up in the first place. That's all I'm saying.

So now MS offers the "economy" X1, but these same cheap-asses STILL aren't happy because they know there's a better X1 version out there. A version which they AREN'T willing to pay for.

Actually, the only thing keeping me from buying an Xbox One now is the fact that it's an under-powered console when compared to the PS4. That, and I already own a PS4. I went through the last console generation with only an Xbox 360, and I'll likely do the same with this generation and the PS4.

With the PS3, Sony screwed up with the insane price and later made things worse because they could never provide cross-game party chat. With the Xbox One, MS screwed up with the original DRM plans, launching with a user interface and feature set that was considerably worse than the Xbox 360, and forcing people to buy Kinect without give people any gaming experiences to justify its inclusion.

What I don't understand is why all the people who wanted the X1 to be more like the PS4 didn't just buy a PS4 instead

We did.

#74 Edited by notnert427 (381 posts) -

@spaceinsomniac said:

That was quite a rant. But no, that's not what I was suggesting. I wasn't suggesting a conspiracy, or evil plot, or their intentions to create a problem that they could fix later. Any of that is quite insane.

You shouldn't be thankful when companies fix their own fuck-ups. when they shouldn't have fucked up in the first place. That's all I'm saying.

So now MS offers the "economy" X1, but these same cheap-asses STILL aren't happy because they know there's a better X1 version out there. A version which they AREN'T willing to pay for.

Actually, the only thing keeping me from buying an Xbox One now is the fact that it's an under-powered console when compared to the PS4. That, and I already own a PS4. I went through the last console generation with only an Xbox 360, and I'll likely do the same with this generation and the PS4.

With the PS3, Sony screwed up with the insane price and later made things worse because they could never provide cross-game party chat. With the Xbox One, MS screwed up with the original DRM plans, launching with a user interface and feature set that was considerably worse than the Xbox 360, and forcing people to buy Kinect without give people any gaming experiences to justify its inclusion.

What I don't understand is why all the people who wanted the X1 to be more like the PS4 didn't just buy a PS4 instead

We did.

Fair enough. Thanks for clarifying; I wasn't entirely sure what you were getting at with that link, since that guy went off on all kinds of things. I'll respectfully disagree on the f***-ups, though. I get what you're saying, but companies inevitably will f*** up from time to time. I'll give them credit if they try to fix things to give the consumer what they want, because that's sure as s*** better than ignoring their customers. In other words, I didn't hate Sony for overpricing the PS3 at launch because they thought people would pay $100 more than the Xbox 360 for blu-ray (or an additional $100 more for a bigger hard drive), and I don't hate Microsoft for thinking people would pay $100 more than the PS4 for the Kinect. Both companies simply misjudged what people were willing to pay premiums for. And while the market is certainly forcing their hand a bit, I feel like they're being more proactive with price drops/bundles/cheaper versions than they really have to be. Which, one could argue is still rooted in self-preservation, but on the other hand, they could be much more dickish about it and feed everyone a bunch of "we feel the kinect is integral to the X1 experience" statements while things stayed the same for the next several months. This is the right move, and it's better late than never. I don't feel like six months is some horrifically long time people have had to "deal with" the Kinect bundling, either.

In your case, I'm glad you bought the PS4. It's the more powerful gaming console, and that seems to be what you wanted. On my end, I'm glad I bought the X1, because I wanted the TV/voice control stuff to provide an entertainment hub of sorts in my living room. It's a matter of choice, and I'm glad the market offered both. Just as I'm glad Microsoft chose to also offer a Kinect-less console. Having more options is a good thing. I also wonder if the Kinect-less X1 will be able to achieve performance more in line with the PS4 without having to devote as many system resources to the Kinect. I won't be surprised if that happens, which would of course cause everyone to go apeshit about the cheaper version being "better". I won't be one of those, because I get that the Kinect functionality doesn't run on fairy dust. I understood that at launch and didn't find it at all surprising or upsetting that the PS4, with performance almost purely dedicated towards gaming alone, would be more powerful. I don't think they'll be able to get the X1 to be better or probably even equal to the PS4 on sheer performance, but a difference that I already see as fairly marginal potentially becoming even more so should make people happy. Again, in THEORY.

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