All the Microsoft hate is understandable - it's arguably less powerful, more restrictive and more expensive.

But that's if you compare it to the PS4.

You shouldn't

Microsoft's long goal is a disc-less all in one media system, games being one facet. I honestly see the steambox being a clsoer fit. Maybe a steambox strapped to a Roku? Microsoft knows you spend more time on Netflix than Call of Duty these days and they're leaning into our changing habits.

The backlash about the DRM and the always on really annoys me:

- DRM: Microsoft are migrating from a media-based world to a license based world. The world PC gamers have been in for a long time. Everyone loves Steam now and I have no doubt that if prices are managed well the Xbox games on demand store won't end up being a big success Sony are going to have to make people jump a bigger chasm when they go discless (it'll happen). Mircosoft are just giving you some of the sting now.

-Always online: Is there anything in your house that isn't online? Have you tried using an IPad offline? Gets boring pretty fast huh? You probably check your smartphone every 2 mins for tweets or some crap...and you're bitching because Microsoft wants to rely on you having an internet connection? Don't you think in 2013 it can ask for that?

When Microsoft let the 360 HDD be optional they made a big blunder in that no develop could rely on the drive being there, which can really change how games are developed. Microsoft wants it's developers to feel the cloud will be there if they need it. Of course there will be fringe cases, dudes on nuclear subs etc, but the Xbone isn't for them - these same guys won't have Steamboxs or Rokus or be doing a hell of a lot on an Ipad. I'm thinking here Microsoft is more than happy to lose the "just wanna game bro" market if they pick up all the Netflix-Hulu-sportsy-mainstreamy audience. Microsoft has had a 30 or so year goal of a set top box (running their os) on top of every TV and the Xbone is their big push to get on there...

Why would the Netflix-focused audience be happy with paying another monthly fee on top of all of their additional subscriptions? They might not notice before buying the XB1, but I imagine they'd be annoyed when they find out.

Rational thought about this stuff comes in two weeks when everyone calms down. Right now we blindly scream for and against things.

That is a really big if that absolutely needs to happen. Low low prices on Steam is the main reason why I don't care about any of the DRM on that system.

You know I really fucking hate how assholeish people have been about having a problem connecting to the internet. Not every single person has a smartphone or peoples internet connections could be spotty.

I think you accidentally posted this on the wrong website.

I mean Sony has had tons of disc-based games on PS3, and have done a better job with that than Microsoft anyway.

Microsoft needs to explain their plan. They also need to explain what they are doing with PRISM but it doesn't seem like the American government is allowing them to do that...

I still feel like they have some tricks up their sleeve. They are not new to this industry and they are not a company that would flat out fail so hard. Microsoft, in the past few years with WP, W8, and Xbox, has been doing things a lot differently than they used to. People apparently hate Windows 8, and why I have no idea. I know that it's not really the same to compare the reception of W8 to Xbox One, but both received and are receiving backlash. But I found myself to love Windows 8 and I love the new direction they're taking. I like where MS is going as a forward thinking company so I'm going to trust them this generation. They have the games to prove that my time won't be wasted, so I'm kind of really excited actually. That said, I still respect Sony a lot and still want a PS4. It's just gonna have to wait until I can justify having one for exclusives.

TL;DR: I love the direction MS is taking in so many of their departments and I'm excited to get my Xbox One, and hopefully enjoy it immensely as I do Windows 8 and WP.

@pottsynz said:

#dealwithit

Notice how PRISM backwards spells MSIRP. MS as in Microsoft. IRP is probably something bad too I bet. I rest my case.

I am sorry but when they say stuff like:

"Fortunately" consumers without a connection can buy Xbox 360

They are not just terrible. They totally not getting any of this.

@pottsynz: Pretty much every game on the PS3 comes out at the same time both digitally and in retail. That will carry over to the PS4 without all the bullshit disc based DRM so I'm pretty sure Microsoft's "misunderstood" plan still kind of sucks.

Most ipad games work just fine with no internet

More people use Netflix on their PS3 then 360 because it's not hidden behind a paywall. It's fully possible to get that market without being shitty about it.

We know this already.

The key thing is it is Anti Consumer coming from a pretty Anti Consumer company. I acknowledge its the future but I dont want that future coming from Ms in the way they do things.

Steam gives us so many benifits in replace for what we lost. We as consumers gain so much. Microsofts plan we gain so little and lose so much.

Steam has created this model and similar sites have only just popped up in the last two years good old games greenman gameing. This is a trend I am happy with these other sites seem trust worthy enough.

Microsoft.....digital shelves? they have had 7 years to prove to us that they can beninfit us. No. I buy games on demand gaame 4 years ago. Same stupid price today. Only within the last year with the run up to xbone have we seen a few titles reduce in price.

We also have 360 dashboard littered with adverts while you have a gold account then pubilishers slap on online pass and dlc that should be part of the game. This isnt a double dip into your pockets this is triple quadruple dipping even once you count tha all media is hidden behind a paywall.

Microsoft never had true customer sastisfaction, people just put up with Ms cos its the 360. You wanna game? its the cheaper more reliable feature filled and more friends system.

If sony had gotten all of us onboard this gen, made us all super happy done ps+ done steam like sales and treated us so damn well.

I can see us coming to this situtation and sony saying "drm online checks. And this is why. these are the benifits to you. all those psn games you already bought on our sales they carry over. your almost only digital now!. and those sales will crash into more saveings! we are moveing to a purley digital zone." it would be met alot better.

Ms plan only benifits then more and later. The trade offs on selling our rights is almost none and thats why no one is happy.

Microsoft takes away what I need and dosnt give me what I want. Sony gives me what I need and gives me what I want.

that is why I am jumping to sony. cos I know I wont be able to play games with the Xbone.

@darji: It's a borderline-unprofessional, smug response to a LEGITIMATE concern. And it proves that Mattrick should not be a spokesperson for anything.

Why is being online more fun all of a sudden? Why should being offline be made less fun all of a sudden?

Why would you believe that Xbox will be a better home for video services? Because they said it? Why is paying for Netflix twice better?

As long as there are regular online-checks, I won't be part of that plan.

You can do a digital marketplace without such arbitrary restrictions. Steam proves it, and even the current PSN/XBL marketplaces.

@pottsynz said:

And why shouldn'tI compare the 360 and the PS4? Why are Microsoft and it's advocates constantly trying to manage my expectations about their products in ways that seem utterly bizzare and out of touch?

There are an infinite number of devices that fulfill any and all my streaming needs. Most of them all in one. I don't need my game system to be focused on Netflix as well. It needs to do games well. I also don't want a DRM based/licensed based machine just so they can save money on used copies and a number of other things that only benefit Microsoft and other publishers. I recently sold a huge chunk of PS2 games that I hadn't touched in a long time for a pretty nice amount of money. Will you be able to do that with the X1? Not really.

The PS4 gives you the option to buy and use physical media, the same way that you have always used it. It also gives you the option to buy digital media which is tied to your PSN account. Best of both worlds. Don't give me this "they're doing it for you" bullshit. Sony is doing it both ways, and gives the choice to the users.

I believe it is pure arrogance and not getting the worldwide market. I do not know how big Live TV is in the US but in Europe it is almost dead. We watch TV for big live events like sports or the Eurovision Song Contest but that is basically it. And even in some article I hear how Live TV is not the future in the US as well and that its dying. To turn this thing around can only be archived to basically buy every fucking game out there as an exclusive or people will not care. They believe people will care because 360 was a huge success but Sony did the same after PS2 and Nintendo does it now after the Wii but it will not help them because they were only focused strongly in the US and Uk.

As for Mattrick. He is like Reggie but the problem is not Mattrick it is Balmer at Microsoft just like the Problem at Nintendo is not Reggie but Iwata.

@pottsynz: Not everyone in the world is you, you shouldn't be so arrogant. Nothing in my house is connected to the internet 24/7. Just because you're like that doesn't mean that everyone is. There are plenty of places int eh world that I lived in that have shit internet. So no in 2013 you can't ask for people to always have the internet because the majority of people in the world don't.

I'm a big PC gamer and I love steam but I get games for 10 quid. I can also play games that I bought 6 years ago and will be able to play those games in another 6 years and will be able to keep doing so as long as I run a VM for the older games. That's why I put up with that DRM. MS won't offer that kind of service for the XBOX One.

@xyzygy:

Windows 8 has been a fucking disaster for Microsoft, not specifically because of what 8 is, but because MS restricted some functionality, changed interfaces and gave most consumers no reason to embrace them. Windows 8 should have been a sppeded up Win7 with a touch screen interface on topTHAT YOU COULD DISABLE. It's that last bit that's important. They also should have included a start button and easily found shut button so I can turn my fucking computer off. If this had been available then no one would have cared about Metro.

They were arrogant to try and force people to use a touch based interface for regular laptops and PCs. It was so fucking stupid. I work as an IT contractor and most people who use PC's have no fucking clue how to use PCs. I mean they don't have a fucking notion. There is no way these people will switch over to a system that appears significantly different to what they have and offers no benefits. MS saw this reflected in their sales this year which dropped significantly. That's why they are starting to back pedal on some of their decisions. You might think that this is all part of some ingenious plan but I think that MS got a bit too far up their own arses and thought that they could pull what ever shit they wanted. And I think they have gone down the same road with the xbox one. However, I don't think that the xbox one will bite them in the asss as bad as win 8 did. People'll love the xbox regardless.

I'm going to break this up.

Firstly yes you should compare it to the PS4 because they are direct competitors. If Microsoft doesn't want to make a game console and instead wants to get into the HTPC market then they should do that instead of playing ring around the fuck around.

Secondly everybody that wants a cablebox already has one. You have to give them a damn good reason to change outside of "Trust us, we're professionals". Because it's clearly so fucking hard to reach and grab another remote on the coffee table if you even have to do that. I have a universal remote. It controls everything. It's great.

Thirdly not everybody loves Steam, GOG tends to get a lot more love because they don't have what Steam has which is DRM.

Fourthly the internet capabilities in the US and other countries are not up to snuff. Simple as that. They cannot go all downloadable anytime soon. It's a harsh reality. And Microsoft really shouldn't just be an ignorant sack of shit and say, "Well don't like it buy a 7 year old thing that's outdated and won't be supported within the year." But guess what, they are. Because they're ignorant sacks of shit.

Fifthly my toaster isn't online. Neither is my oven. So yeah.

Sixthly I have used an IPad offline on a flight. Worked fine. Wasn't as boring as you might think. Neither was playing games on a console at the lake, offline mind you. Yeah. I can totally do that still! Shocking I know.

Seventhly no, no they cannot go under the false pretense that everybody has an internet connection that is reliable, or fast enough.

Eighthly (this is getting hard) they cannot guarantee that their servers will never be hacked and go down for over a month like Sony, they cannot guarantee that they won't go down at all just due to increased traffic even. That is the problem here. It's THEM not US. THEY have to prove that THEY won't have any blackouts. Guess what. They have had blackouts.

Ninethly the Xbone should be for soldiers. They work so assholes like this can make money. And yes I'm aware that they've said that they're going to do something for soldiers but I'll believe it when I see it. If those guys are the "just wanna game bro" market that they're comfortable losing then I'll be over there, you can be over here with the sycophants and yes men. Because those guys do a fuck of a lot more and deserve a fuck of a lot better. I have a brother in the military and to just be swept aside like garbage and ignored is disgusting.

Microsoft and some say "it's 2013 if you don't have internet go play the 360" (direct microsoft quote). That is fine, that is a decission. But don't be mad then when I decide to buy a PS4 instead

I've actually tried to rationalize what Microsoft is doing, but there's one big X factor.

Bundled, always plugged in Kinect.

That's sort of the weird little bit that nobody can quite logically explain. It inches close to conspiracy territory, but even at face value it makes very little business sense. Even when you examine the XBONE as a long term media device that is trying to capitalize on passive entertainment... Why's that Kinect there, playa?

The sole argument you could make is that somehow Microsoft thinks it's a better remote control than just a remote control and is willing to force it down all our throats for no apparent benefit.

Honestly, I challenge even the most "open minded" of Microsoft apologists to present a cogent argument as to why the Kinect is bundled and aggressively required. It makes no business sense. None. The only value it has, is as a surveillance and DRM device. Microsoft isn't requiring it for nothing. I'm happy to admit I'm wrong, but it's the one single snag in all of the logical reasoning and apologizing that I can't reconcile.

Great post

Yes the Kinect requirement is bizarre - honestly I think the bombcrew's theory on it head counting way me someday come true...

@pottsynz: I made pretty much the same topic (claiming the real target should be steam/apple/android since in a few short years those companies have gained parity and even surpassed the console market in terms of sales) months ago right after the Sony event and everybody seemed to think I was out of my mind, I'm not really an I told you so kind of guy, but hey look how mass appeal MS is going, Sony is literally the only horse left in the race, of course they're gonna come in first. (Nintendo is off in it's own world and enough of us want to be a part of it for nostalgia or kitsch or what have you that they don't have to worry too much)

Really? you can't see why MS would want to make sure every owner has the fastest selling consumer electronic device in recorded history? You can't see a reason for them NOT to abandon a technology that sold 24 million units in only a couple years? Something that fills the void of the casual market left by Nintendo's move to the Wii U?

Oh of course it's because they want to watch you jack off to DOA girls right?

@zfubarz: I do believe the console concept itself is dead. It's always been sitting on the edge of viability and never been a good ROI unless you can keep bankrolling it to sucesss (like MS has). Sega knows that all too well.

@pottsynz: You make a good point and I think you're right when it comes to Microsoft being more interested -long term- in having a set top box in as many homes as possible. The problem as I see it is they haven't told us that. I would have liked to see them honestly approach the audience when they had their reveal event and say something like this:

"This is our vision for XBOX moving forward, it's not just about games any more, we are re-positioning away from games to a unified entertainment center, this will mean playing on XBOX is about to change, we strongly believe in a digital future and want to bring that to you right now. These changes will take some getting used to so let me show you how we've made your experience on XBOX the best entertainment experience you'll ever have in the living room."

I ask very little from the companies I choose to support; tell me why you earn my patronage. Microsoft so far have tried to trick me into supporting them, you or I shouldn't be doing any work to try and understand Microsoft's plan, it should be spelled out for every consumer who wants to hear it.

Why are you acting like a submissive housewife? Stop embracing the pain.

Why do people think MS is being arrogant expecting internet on their connected device. If you don;t have internet then it's not for you in the same way Roku isn't for you.

The Microsoft plan is terrible. The anti consumer policies are terrible. The Xbox One might have great games, but everything else is pushing me to buy the PS4.

What Roku discs can I buy at retail? I must have missed those.

Bottom line, if I buy any form of media on a physical disc, and if you want to tell me when I can play it, where I can play it, when and if I can sell it, and even who I can give it to, then FUCK YOU. That's not directed as a reply to you personally, but a reply to ANY company who would try to pull the shit that Microsoft did.

From Giant Bombs DRM explanation video:

Ryan: "I'm shaking the camera's head at this."

Vinny: "That's fucked."

Jeff: "That is fucked"

Patrick: "[Microsoft is] ruining everyone else's experience, or making it difficult for them."

Patrick: "It's all bullshit."

Patrick: "Looking forward to having all these questions clarified at the interviews I no longer have with Microsoft executives at E3."

Vinny: "I want to be able to loan stuff." "Let me manage my own rights. That is the fight that really needs to happen." "This is kind of like my nightmare situation where this is benefiting nobody but publishers and Gamestop."

And a post I made days ago:

If blu-ray or even DVD developers tried this same thing, I'd be just as upset.

If you want to be told what you are and are not allowed to do with your own property, then buy whatever you want. I've spent a lot of money on my 360, and I don't even own a PS3, but if Sony is even slightly less restrictive about this sort of thing, I'm buying a PS4 and I won't look back.

This is trying to force a connected world before we are ready, and--more importantly--before getting rid of physical property. It's a game company basically saying "Seeing as we're not to the point where physical discs are no longer needed, we'll just essentially invalidate the intentions behind property laws."

And yes, even Steam has an offline mode, so to be this restrictive is completely unnecessary, and anti-consumer. If Sony does the exact same thing, then I guess console gaming itself will just be dead to me.

Thank you, Sony. No options in this situation would have been pretty awful.

@pottsynz: So what you are ultimately saying........is that ps4 out class it in everything it does so we should not compare them? what?

ps. this is not a troll post. That is what you are saying.

If they want to be all-digital, they must start having Steam-like sales, maybe add an offline-mode, then the people will come. Cheap games are a great driving force.

There's no need to worry about it now. It's not like you MUST fucking GET IT DAY fucking ONE. Wait and see how it plays out.

I, for one, don't care about used games one iota. I don't really lend games to people. Primarily, I'm a PC gamer, so I buy things on Steam.

Just wait and see.

All valid points you are making. MS has every right to go into that direction. The problem that MS has, they are not giving the consumer anything and they are taking almost everything away from him.

Imagine if MS came out and said no used games, but we will lower the prizes on everything (Steam). Or give us Xbox Live for free or give us every month free games (PS PLUS). Also you are 100 dollars over your main competitor. MS does not only want its cake it wants every cake.

P.S. I almost forgot the stupid camera, that no one asked for, that does what most TVs will do in 2 years, and no one really knows what data it assembles. And dont tell me about privacy settings, because we learned a couple of days ago how much they matter.

GUYS YOU JUST DON'T GET IT! Stop comparing the Xbone to PS4; that's not how you're supposed to do it! Don't you see?

:rolleyes:

Even if I don't compare the Xbox One at all, I wouldn't buy it. I don't want to support their DRM crap and on top of that, I don't need a console which tries to become a social/media powerhouse.

It's a god damn console, not a media server, not a Mac Mini or an Ipad, I already got a PC. The Reason I do own consoles (and since Ps2 Generation, I always owned every 3 of them: Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft) is to play together with friends in my living room, to share some cool games, and to be able to simply play something without the necessity to have an internet connection around.

At first I thought to myself that I would buy Wii U, PS4 and Xbox One anyway....but I am not going to support the path Microsoft tries to force upon me.

You're telling me that the Xbox One is going to be similar to a Steambox (more so than a PS4), when people have already come out and said that if you're an indie developer, it's easier to develop/publish your titles on the PS4? Right, whatever you say. It's not as if the PS4 isn't going to have digital downloads. Unlike the Xbox One, you can self-publish your games on the PS4. Microsoft is taking the same route they did with the Xbox 360 and if you hadn't noticed, a lot of people weren't cool with that. Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't we seeing a lot more indie games (the type of games you see pop up on Steam) on the PS4 come this fall?

This is why I continue to remain skeptical when it comes to Microsoft's digital pricing in the future. Not to mention that if you want to compare it to Steam, you have to take other factors into account such as built-in modding support. Therein lies the issue. Microsoft doesn't appear to be offering me, the consumer, the same sort of benefits I receive from Steam. Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Microsoft still charged you for gamer pictures. Sorry, but the Xbox One and the PS4 are DIRECT competitors. You're damn right I'm going to compare the two.

Good luck going all digital with a 500 GB HDD, MS's HDD's are way too expensive. *looks at 360 HDD price*

And as an aside to my post, which was filled with hate and vitriol because I'm a douche, they have every right to make what they want to make. I have every right to not buy it and call them out on their bullshit.

There's a saying in business that the customer is always right. They don't get that. They have this weird keep on keeping on mentality that they're infallible and can do no wrong. Look at how long they let the PR nightmare about the Xbone swirl before they even revealed the thing, then they let it develop into a hurricane afterwards waiting until the last moment to dispel anything. That's a sign of absolute arrogance.

Furthermore their "used games policy" only helps the companies that we're told are the devil incarnate, being GameStop, Best Buy, GAME, etc. They're not going to sink because of this, if anything they're going to thrive because of it. It will destroy mom and pop stores that sell games. It will kill those cool unique stores that you could go into as a kid and play a game where they actually knew their shit. It benefits the big bad while killing the people that actually give a fuck and are quite frankly fighting for their livelihood. The hypocrisy that surrounds this, decrying them in public while simultaneously making backroom deals, is pretty disgusting. I have no doubt in my mind that that GameStop was at the table and had a say in policy. Then after that meeting they all assfucked one another*.*I don't know if they all assfucked one another, but they probably did.

To be fair, the Xbox One allows the use of an external harddrive.

@bigandtasty: As an employee for an unnamed major used game retailer I can confirm that this is an accurate statement for the 360 right now.

@aiurflux: While I am on the same side as you in regards to the XB1 (I'm not calling it X1 or Xbone) You statement about the customer is always right is absolutely wrong. I understand your argument using it I just hate it when people use that saying. Other wise I'm just being a dick when I tell people Mario is Nintendo only or that the Wii won't play 360 games. (Those are actual things people have argued with me over when I tell them otherwise.)

Yeah, people who throw that customer is always right argument around have never actually worked retail. The customer is usually an idiot and it's your job to make sure they don't hurt themselves too badly, or if you're a prick take them for everything they've got. As many have said including Jeff, sure Sony listened to the customer, because they thought it would benefit their bottom line, if it wasn't that way they'd have told us to go fuck ourselves with a Duke controller.

True that. True that. Customer is all ways right. They just dont know what the fuck they are talking about a good chunk of the time.

Yeah...Totally agree. The OP's argument is completely possible under Sony's infrastructure as well, and with less paywalls and restrictions. I totally agree Microsoft has a plan, but I'm not sure it's a good one...for me at least.

Microsoft has a plan: control all the entertainment in the living room. Internet, games, tv, twiter, facebook, netflix, ..., all under the strict policies they enforce. This was made pretty clear when Microsoft avoided introducting a browser in Xbox 360.

Having online capabilities is one thing, FORCING you to be online in order to use what you bought is another completely different, ok how about this, what if you phone company said that from now you you can only make calls on your phone as long as you have a internet connection available on it? what if you go somewhere where 3g/4g coverage is terrible and you really need to make a call? would you like that?

Going back to games, what if my modem breaks and I'm unable to get online at all for 3/4 days until getting a replacement? it's ok to you to be UNABLE to play a fucking SINGLE PLAYER game because of that? really?

I don't think that's a completely accurate description. They want to be a service provider, a gatekeeper between the consumer and the content. Their end goal is that Xbox Live becomes the actual platform, streaming all of your entertainment to all of your devices, while MS skims their profit off the top of every transaction you make with the actual content producer. If they can layer that with additional charges while also becoming an advertising pipeline (literally making money by selling your screen-space to a third party while you pay MS for the privilege) then they'll jump on that too. If they can also sell you more devices which allow you to pay them more to carry their paid service around with you, all the better.

It's absolutely a corporate wet dream but I suspect that in practice Microsoft trying to establish good relationships with content producers while making all the rules, taking the lion's share of the profits, and finding a userbase willing to be exploited in that fashion and willing to pay for it might be like trying to wrangle a herd of angry cats.