Microsoft Is Saying Sorry

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#51 Posted by spraynardtatum (2605 posts) -

@danmcn12: I see what you're saying and I agree that the gaming community can be infantile but to me that's peek-a-boo logic. Reversing their policies and backing off on some of the announcements they made doesn't mean that they never happened. I feel the opposite. I think it's infantile to forget about what Microsoft proposed just because they "changed their minds".

People are still offended. There really isn't anything that Microsoft can do at this point but pray that the internet is all talk and that gamers will buy their console like lemmings.

The gaming experience they proposed (kinect and whatnot) isn't something I can get behind until I really see it working as well as they claim.

#52 Posted by HerbieBug (4212 posts) -

Through the door on the right, Microsoft.

#54 Posted by AlexGlass (688 posts) -

The only things they should be sorry for is being weak on their position and listening to screaming infants. Never let fans run your company. And for not being forthcoming with tech demos and having Kinect/controller games ready to show and put on display at launch. If not games, at least show off the tech. And for not apologizing or offering a solution or alternative to the fans who are interested in a connected console and canceled their preorder because of their reversals. We are the ones that need an apology and I'm still waiting for my carrot.

#55 Posted by HerbieBug (4212 posts) -

@alexglass: You do realize their decision to make changes based on consumer backlash was entirely fiscal, right? They made changes because it had become clear that launching the console as originally announced would have been market suicide.

#56 Posted by Viking_Funeral (1735 posts) -

@verendus said:

Apology tour? Are the pre-order numbers that bad?

This is likely what it all comes down to. The community could bitch & moan all they want, as long as they actually still went out and bought the product. With how quickly they turned around on the 24h check-in after the reveal, I'm guessing the pre-order numbers were monumentally bad. With them continually backtracking and apologizing to the community, I can't imagine that they've improved that much.

I am amused that people assume this is still about what people are saying online. It's about numbers.

#57 Posted by spraynardtatum (2605 posts) -

@alexglass: Reacting to something you don't like doesn't make you an infant. It's pretty normal, especially when its something you're passionate about.

#58 Posted by zombie2011 (4968 posts) -

this is dumb, they already listened to people and took away the features everyone was complaining about. Why do they need to do this?

Gamers have the biggest sense of self entitlement.

#59 Posted by spraynardtatum (2605 posts) -

this is dumb, they already listened to people and took away the features everyone was complaining about. Why do they need to do this?

Gamers have the biggest sense of self entitlement.

What does this have to do with self entitlement?

#60 Edited by EXTomar (4497 posts) -

Complaining "The internet is full of lemmings!" ignores the tiny fact Microsoft failed to get the lemmings to march behind them.

#62 Posted by AlexGlass (688 posts) -

@alexglass: Reacting to something you don't like doesn't make you an infant. It's pretty normal, especially when its something you're passionate about.

It does when you don't understand the full picture. Physical discs aren't what matter going forward. It's whether or not second hand value carries over into the digital era. That's what's important. And those people are fighting a losing battle.

Discs WILL die. All the things they argued, bitched, moaned and cried about, are the things they will lose sooner or later anyway. The important point was how do you make sure the values and benefits it offered gamers carry over? How do we make sure that freedom carries over into the digital age? Digital Game sharing was a good starting point for that. DRM is a necessity in order to make it possible. I can't think of a way of making digital games sharing possible without some sort of DRM. That's called piracy.

So who cares that you can share and sell your physical discs? Already we see so many games going digital only or online only. People think MS lost something by removing that feature. In reality, I think gamers did. If I want to buy K.I. for example, I'm stuck with it. Worthless when I'm done with it. Can't share, can't swap....can't even buy it on a physical disc. So I feel like I got screwed over more than winning anything. Already. And we haven't even kicked off the gen.

#63 Posted by Sergio (2050 posts) -

@spraynardtatum: He basically wants Microsoft to listen to these screaming infants and not those screaming infants.

#65 Posted by phantomzxro (1565 posts) -

I don't think they need to say sorry or anything. Mostly because it would be hard to please everyone and sound truly sorry without PR spin. They just need to turn people's opinions by their actions. Just show that the system will be awesome for gaming and other things then the people will follow suit.

#66 Posted by AlexGlass (688 posts) -

@sergio said:

@spraynardtatum: He basically wants Microsoft to listen to these screaming infants and not those screaming infants.

They didn't and still don't have to listen to me. It was their idea. And I don't plan on screaming about it on here. I made my point heard directly on Major Nelson's blog where it's closer to the source. He ignored most of the comments and posters on there and never responded or addressed the issue with a sufficient conclusion. Therefore, I plan on doing the only thing an informed consumer should do. Don't but it until they clarify it or offer you what you want to buy.

The same thing all those infants should have done. Don't buy it. It wasn't for them.

#67 Edited by GrantHeaslip (1524 posts) -

You guys realize that the term "apology tour" is the Huffington Post's, not Microsoft's, right? If you ignore the way HuffPo is framing it, I don't see what's wrong with sitting on stage and humbly taking unscripted questions. If Sony or Nintendo did the same thing, I'm guessing it would be seen in a very different light. Yeah, Microsoft's circumstances are different, but what do you want them to do? Removing the Kinect from the box is, at this point, not a realistic answer, if just because they'd be throwing their developers under the bus.

This anti-XB0 bandwagon riding is getting real old. When they first announced all of this stuff, I get it, it's easy to oversimplify and play up contrasts, but at this point I see a lot of people being negative and cynical for no reason other than the satisfaction of being part of a homogenous angry mob. Don't want an Xbox One? Great, don't buy one and move on!

I say this as someone who would be more likely to buy a Wii U than an Xbox One.

#68 Posted by ProfessorEss (7280 posts) -

... I plan on doing the only thing an informed consumer should do.

Based on how many people make their decision based which company's scripted suit felt most authentic I'm guessing you're speaking to a very small audience :)

#69 Posted by GERALTITUDE (2918 posts) -

Whaaaatever.

The whole enterprise world has hated MS for ages,gamers only caught up last recently. Thanks for the apology or whatever "Major". Nothing has changed. A shit head of a platform holder isn't going to stop amazing games from being made on their platforming.

#70 Edited by AlexGlass (688 posts) -

@alexglass said:

... I plan on doing the only thing an informed consumer should do.

Based on how many people make their decision based which company's scripted suit felt most authentic I'm guessing you're speaking to a very small audience :)

But that doesn't affect me and I would hope gamers that spend their time on gaming forums do so because they're enthusiasts and want to know as much as possible. Some people buy cars only looking at the payment and don't even care what brand it is. Some buy cars only because it is a particular manufacturer or model they just have to have that they are in love with. Others want to know some amount of information and price. While further along, others want to know every single specification so they can shop and compare features and price. I fall more in the latter.

#71 Posted by rm082e (197 posts) -

PR apologies are real and meaningful. Especially when they don't say sorry or admit a mistake.

*slow clap*

#72 Posted by senrat (312 posts) -

I think the gaming community should apologize for being a bunch of whiney assholes. Sure Microsoft didnt do everything right, but they sure didnt fuck enough to deserve what they got. Its like people want the Xbox one to fail, the gaming has to be one of the most negative online groups around. Car communities are almost as bad , atleast they can somewhat logically justify their position. I dont mind disagreement and opinions, its the blind mentality that the other console is your enemy and it should fail.

#73 Posted by AuthenticM (3699 posts) -

The word "sorry" is nowhere in the article.

Online
#74 Posted by rm082e (197 posts) -

@senrat said:

I think the gaming community should apologize for being a bunch of whiney assholes. Sure Microsoft didnt do everything right, but they sure didnt fuck enough to deserve what they got. Its like people want the Xbox one to fail, the gaming has to be one of the most negative online groups around. Car communities are almost as bad , atleast they can somewhat logically justify their position. I dont mind disagreement and opinions, its the blind mentality that the other console is your enemy and it should fail.

Because it's our job to take care of these corporations and make sure they succeed, even if we don't like what they are offering, right? They're free to never admit they made mistake, blame the media and/or consumers for "piling on", and we're all supposed to sit here quietly and hand over our money, right?

Capitalism is a two way street. They made this problem, not the Xbox user base. No one was demanding they require an internet connection, use DRM to gain control of the used market, or pack in the Kinect at an extra $100 cost. It's their job to fix what they broke. Thankfully, they seem to be doing a decent job.

#75 Posted by MonkeyKing1969 (2564 posts) -

Are all the Xbox Fans going to break into song now?

The trainwreck continues. I almost feel bad for them at this point. The only reason I can see them doing this is that sales are nowhere near where they need to be. The problem is this was all because of hubris. I want to see the Xbox succeed but not at the expense of the consumer.

I don't think it was hubris it was business. They were turning from a business to consumer (B2C) model a business to business (B2B) model where they supplied the machine to you, but their real customers were other business - gamers were products in this mode. In January 2013 the customers Microsoft envisioned for itself were other business. Game publishers, the NFL, MMA, FIFA, Cable Networks, online video distribution (Netflix, Hulu), and other media distribution networks were who they were talking to directly.

Oh, they were going to sell you the box, but strategically speaking MS has been getting rid of its first party development and getting itself slowly out of publishing. For Microsoft selling games was probably a bit of an icky business, and being front facing and communicating with customers directly about their own games was a drag. What MS really wanted was to sell you the box and one service - XBL. After that they merely needed to act as the link to other services. Those other services in turn would pay Microsoft or have other media deals that benefited Microsoft in other ways. Those other services than needed to be front facing with you.

The plan was clean. The plan was better for a bureaucracy like Microsoft, because business relationships are about contracts. In a business relationship customers are within the contract to get paid, or customers are outside of the contraction to be sued. Just a billing department and legal department without all the mess or fuss of dealing with irrational customers that wanted things.

They could have done it too. If they had just not pushed so hard on policy changes about physical media they could have slid into a relationship with gamers that was merely about does the box work and are you paid up on XBL. All teh other services & media would be contacted out in a clan efficient way. Meanwhile MS would have stated making mess interactive media (games) and stated making more passive entertainment (video programming). It would have been so clean...and easy...and profitable.

Sadly, now they have to put on their Wellies and tromp around with the mud with the hogs (gamers). Sadly, they need people to talk to customers and have conversations where they feel dirty explaining how much they love their hogs...err customers. They have to do this because in order to get their B2B concept working they need hogs to buy boxes, and now because people are skiddish they need to talk to us directly. Believe me once Xbox One is selling over they next five years MS will publish less games, sell more stakes in companies, so they can move to a cleaner B2B model.

And, YES, all console makers do this to some extent, the whole concept of 3rd party software or other servies is a B2B model Sony and Nintendo engage in too. But if you want to know why MS was so bad at communicating to gamers earlier this year is is because they didn't WANT TO get dragged into that with us. They wanted us to buy teh box, and meanwhile their discussions with the NFL, MMA Fighting, FIFA, Netflix, and the biggest 3rd parties could continue over a three-martini lunch.

#76 Edited by spookytapes (261 posts) -

I'd believe the preorder numbers are in fact abysmal considering I was able to pre-order a Day One Edition XB1 from Best Buy as recently as yesterday. I feel like the launch day PS4s have been sold out everywhere for months despite all indications that they are shipping a much higher quantity of machines. I guess I'm buying both of these things at launch now because I am a maniac and really just want to play Forza 5 despite liking the PS4 overall a lot more. I... I think I might still cancel my preorder, though.

#77 Posted by DJJoeJoe (1317 posts) -

Never really had a problem with their original plan, really don't care anymore just hurry up NOV. and bring on the games.

I'm actually sad most of the great stuff they talked about seems like it has been delayed for now, the gifting of digital games etc I have no idea if that stuff still exists or will exist at launch and all that. I EVEN forgot that all games will have digital versions day 1.... thankfully that seems to still be true, despite NO information on it since the very first info given in like fuckin march... I freaked myself out because I was looking for where to pre-order watch_dogs and there's a mention of it being digital for ps4, and zero mention one way or the other for anything else...

#78 Edited by Blu3V3nom07 (4154 posts) -

@djjoejoe: I was listening to Podcast Unlocked, and I have decided to make all my XONE purchases digital from day one. Ryan was saying to remember that all those digital purchases are TAX-FREE. Texas does 8.25 percent, so a game comes out to $64.86, times say three or four games near launch adds up. And rumor seems to be that MS is thinking about making a digital resale marketplace. So you can sell your Digital games back to Xbox, and get say a hefty large sum of credit back. Say if it was a fair $30, that's pretty awesome. Or even $20, 10, etc. It still beats out 50 cents for my Tekken 5 at GameStop.

My point is that this whole public scare has really pushed back some of MS plans. These plans will still surely come out, one way or another. And their Family Sharing Plan is just the start.

#79 Edited by Milkman (16526 posts) -

You know what, guys? I bet the Xbox One will do just fine.

#81 Edited by Hailinel (23891 posts) -

Are all the Xbox Fans going to break into song now?

@mariachimacabre said:

The trainwreck continues. I almost feel bad for them at this point. The only reason I can see them doing this is that sales are nowhere near where they need to be. The problem is this was all because of hubris. I want to see the Xbox succeed but not at the expense of the consumer.

I don't think it was hubris it was business. They were turning from a business to consumer (B2C) model a business to business (B2B) model where they supplied the machine to you, but their real customers were other business - gamers were products in this mode. In January 2013 the customers Microsoft envisioned for itself were other business. Game publishers, the NFL, MMA, FIFA, Cable Networks, online video distribution (Netflix, Hulu), and other media distribution networks were who they were talking to directly.

Oh, they were going to sell you the box, but strategically speaking MS has been getting rid of its first party development and getting itself slowly out of publishing. For Microsoft selling games was probably a bit of an icky business, and being front facing and communicating with customers directly about their own games was a drag. What MS really wanted was to sell you the box and one service - XBL. After that they merely needed to act as the link to other services. Those other services in turn would pay Microsoft or have other media deals that benefited Microsoft in other ways. Those other services than needed to be front facing with you.

The plan was clean. The plan was better for a bureaucracy like Microsoft, because business relationships are about contracts. In a business relationship customers are within the contract to get paid, or customers are outside of the contraction to be sued. Just a billing department and legal department without all the mess or fuss of dealing with irrational customers that wanted things.

They could have done it too. If they had just not pushed so hard on policy changes about physical media they could have slid into a relationship with gamers that was merely about does the box work and are you paid up on XBL. All teh other services & media would be contacted out in a clan efficient way. Meanwhile MS would have stated making mess interactive media (games) and stated making more passive entertainment (video programming). It would have been so clean...and easy...and profitable.

Sadly, now they have to put on their Wellies and tromp around with the mud with the hogs (gamers). Sadly, they need people to talk to customers and have conversations where they feel dirty explaining how much they love their

hogs

...err customers. They have to do this because in order to get their B2B concept working they need

hogs

to buy boxes, and now because people are skiddish they need to talk to us directly. Believe me once Xbox One is selling over they next five years MS will publish less games, sell more stakes in companies, so they can move to a cleaner B2B model.

And, YES, all console makers do this to some extent, the whole concept of 3rd party software or other servies is a B2B model Sony and Nintendo engage in too. But if you want to know why MS was so bad at communicating to gamers earlier this year is is because they didn't WANT TO get dragged into that with us. They wanted us to buy teh box, and meanwhile their discussions with the NFL, MMA Fighting, FIFA, Netflix, and the biggest 3rd parties could continue over a three-martini lunch.

While business was involved, I have very little doubt myself that Microsoft's current situation comes down to hubris. They thought that, given their position this generation, they could dictate the next by telling consumers what they should want. It's the exact same pit Sony fell into with the PS3 and their belief that people would be willing to buy a $600 console, with Ken Kutaragi going so far as to suggest that people would work second jobs in order to afford one. Amusingly enough, neither Kutaragi nor Don Mattrick, who spearheaded the Xbox One, are with the respective employers for whom they led their respective consoles into debacle.

Microsoft tried to tell us that Kinect would be a vital part of the experience (despite not everyone having home environments suitable for Kinect) or that always-online would be necessary for the console's operation (despite not every territory Microsoft sells to having the internet infrastructure that would make their online plan feasible). Both of these aspects have since either been significantly downplayed or eliminated even though they were both key aspects of Microsoft's business plan, born out of the hubris that made them believe they were a good idea to begin with.

#82 Edited by Verendus (348 posts) -
@milkman said:

You know what, guys? I bet the Xbox One will do just fine.

Good guess and I think doing "Just fine" is what MS is aiming for right now. I think it's hilarious how they're going on an apology tour yet they said "We're in genuinely enviable position" on OXM earlier this week.

http://www.oxm.co.uk/62127/xbox-one-u-turns-havent-hurt-us-insists-microsoft-we-are-genuinely-in-an-enviable-position/

#83 Posted by DJJoeJoe (1317 posts) -

My point is that this whole public scare has really pushed back some of MS plans. These plans will still surely come out, one way or another. And their Family Sharing Plan is just the start.

The 'new' Family Share Plan is from Valve, for Steam and not from Microsoft. All of the things Microsoft talked about with having a shared library of games hasn't been updated since then and it's safe to assume it won't be happening in the near future but more likely later on... at least going by how much they've taken back.

I mean, it seems like you'd have to revamp a lot of things just on a technical level to roll back on the things they already have and the shared library for your xbox one games was kinda a central part to the system, it's pretty safe to assume that will get a delay while they re-work all that so people don't flip out again :(

#84 Edited by Superfriend (1526 posts) -

@jeust said:

With my experience with the Xbox 360, it will be hard to ever dissuaded by an apology. If they fix:

  • the game catalogue consisting of mainly their first and second party blockbuster titles, like Halo, Gears of War and Forza that don't do anything for someone not a fan of FPS, TPS and racing;
  • lack of exclusives;
  • their drought periods of biting dust for months until a blockbuster title hits the market;
  • high game prices and lack of worthwhile sales and price drops.

Then I'll maybe consider them again. For now I'm wary of the Xbox experience and Microsoft bullshit policies.

I think the 360 had bigger problems than that.. namely:

  • The freaking Red Ring of Death that killed every single launch 360 I´ve encountered in real life
  • Their stupid ass DVD-Drive that would cause all sorts of problems (that was thankfully fixed with the ability to install games)
  • The Dashboard (I think the current iteration looks horrible and is a downgrade from the NXE)
  • The goddamn Kinect. That thing needs to die. Seriously.
  • Their weird focus on casual games (that use the goddamn Kinect) and the fact that they killed most of their first party content except for Gears (maybe), Halo and Forza (Fable doesn´t count, they turned it into some casual nightmare, by the looks of it)..

I don´t want a new Kinect. Never ever. Get rid of that thing.

#85 Posted by Superfriend (1526 posts) -

@jeust said:

With my experience with the Xbox 360, it will be hard to ever dissuaded by an apology. If they fix:

  • the game catalogue consisting of mainly their first and second party blockbuster titles, like Halo, Gears of War and Forza that don't do anything for someone not a fan of FPS, TPS and racing;
  • lack of exclusives;
  • their drought periods of biting dust for months until a blockbuster title hits the market;
  • high game prices and lack of worthwhile sales and price drops.

Then I'll maybe consider them again. For now I'm wary of the Xbox experience and Microsoft bullshit policies.

I think the 360 had bigger problems than that.. namely:

  • The freaking Red Ring of Death that killed every single launch 360 I´ve encountered in real life
  • Their stupid ass DVD-Drive that would cause all sorts of problems (that was thankfully fixed with the ability to install games)
  • The Dashboard (I think the current iteration looks horrible and is a downgrade from the NXE)
  • The goddamn Kinect. That thing needs to die. Seriously.
  • Their weird focus on casual games (that use the goddamn Kinect) and the fact that they killed most of their first party content except for Gears (maybe), Halo and Forza (Fable doesn´t count, they turned it into some casual nightmare, by the looks of it)..

I don´t want a new Kinect. Never ever. Get rid of that thing.

#86 Posted by guiseppe (2837 posts) -

Well I won't be seeing the xbone until next spring. That, alongside the ridiculous announcement makes my choice of console really, really easy.

#87 Posted by Zereta (1363 posts) -

Make a few mistakes? Get hated.

Fix the mistakes and be sincere about it? Get hated.

Why are we so quick to trust Sony, anyway? Microsoft hasn't been doing so well the last 5 months or so, but Sony messed up 7 years ago and has been messing up all the way till February this year and the moment they give one sign of hope, we all forgive them? Microsoft does the same and we hate them instantly?

I've primarily been a 360 gamer this gen and am buying both consoles next gen but the way the internet (and the gaming media) treats Microsoft as nothing but a corporate machine is disgusting. Both companies have gamers doing the best they can. And at this point, the Xbox One and the PS4 are pretty much the same box, save for exclusives (Because really, those Indie games not being funded by Sony will find their way to Xbox One soon. Because money)

#88 Edited by Sinusoidal (1289 posts) -

this is dumb, they already listened to people and took away the features everyone was complaining about. Why do they need to do this?

Gamers have the biggest sense of self entitlement.

Gamers have a right to some entitlement these days since they're pre-ordering everything from new games to consoles to peripherals.

Bringing me to: pre-ordering is a horrible, horrible thing that needs to go away.

People are paying for shit before it's even done. If not enough people pay for the undone shit, the shit never gets finished, or comes out half-assed, or gets impacted and requires a cash enema. The industry needs to back the fuck off relying on people giving them money to do the shit they're paid to do before they even do it. It's ruining games, giving gamers stupid (half-deserved, since they're paying for unfinished products) senses of self-entitlement and making developers not take any chances on new IPs/ideas because if their product can't succeed in the marketing stage, it's a failure.

Fuck pre-orders.

I might have some beer in me. The beer of truth!

#90 Posted by bybeach (4725 posts) -

I don't know why it is but that dumped ice-cream cone makes me impulsively indifferent. What a symbol to illustrate ones dashed hopes by (which may be the intent). But on the other hand this is about Microsoft, and like Sony they have shown some ineptitude in the past for e standing to fact, especially if it the potential was idealized. They do pretty well after all working a bottom line to make affordable/profitable machines that actually meet the description. And the bottom line(if not the product, lol) has to last 7- 10 years.

Oh Well.

#91 Posted by bybeach (4725 posts) -

Having said that, limiting access to purchased games in one form or another makes me cringe even, especially since that sounds nothing but bad in concept. It wasn't too long ago (15 years or so ago in the public eye) that Gates and Corp. was viewed as near predatory. This is how many people perceived them.

#92 Posted by BrookeMarks (2 posts) -

Kinect will never be what they want it to be, just like no one will call it "The One" instead of "XBone".

I loved the idea of Kinect, just like I thought Facetime on iPhone would be great. But it's not what you want every day.

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